Bases to make a Mauser accept Ruger rings:

Black Sharpie mark on the Wisner reproduction "African" rear sight marks the elevation for some specific load, would have to consult my notes to see which one,
but it worked!

Grandpaw bead elevation is adjustable too:

26" barrel.
Shilen stainless, No. 3 sporter, 1:12" twist.
8.0 pounds exactly with scope and rings removed, unloaded.
I could get her below 8 pounds if I replaced those heavy steel Ruger bases with some aluminum Weaver bases.
But since they are J-B Welded with 8x40 screws, I won't bother.
Those old Ruger rings are stainless, painted with Krylon from Walmart too, except for the chromoly mounting bolts and nuts.
Her name is "Olive" like Popeye's girlfriend.
Alderella is an inch shorter in barrel and a pound heavier in weight, jealous, and worried about which scope makes her butt look big.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Above is a photo of a 458 Win Mag case with a 500 grain Nosler Partition seated by softly chambering the round so that the rifling pushed the bullet into the case, thus giving the OAL of the cartridge for the bullet seated just touching the rifling. As shown, the OAL is 3.473". This is slightly more than 1/10" more than cartridge seated to cannelure and it amounts to about a 7% increase in powder capacity. So if I machine (have a gunsmith machine) out the spacer at the back of the magazine, the magazine dimension increases to 3.57". So there is very little to be done to the rifle to increase the performance. I think no change will be needed for the ejector blade since the only issue would be if loaded rounds were being cycled, which if shooting at something, would not be the case.

There are two issues, 1. with full profile round nose bullets the bullet contacts the rifling further forward, so there would be a shorter OAL. and 2. I need to go back to the drawing board for load development since the longer OAL results in significantly more case capacity, meaning the present loads would be less than potential, so re-working will be necessary. Not a bad problem to have.

Ray B,

I have found that loaded rounds as long as 3.54" will eject, unfired, from most standard length .458 Win. rifles.
So if you either get a new magazine box and keep the old one as is, for original restoration,
or just pop out the spacer in original box,
you are good to go,
even with your somewhat short-throated .458 Win.
If you get a gunsmith to drill out the 4 spot welds at the back of the box,
might as well get him to give it a SAAMI throat, if you want full performance.
You have a ".458 Winchester Special."
It might be special in the accuracy department too, but you will not be able to load as much powder into yours as with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with the longer throat.

Rip ...

Right. Upon closer examination the difference in the magazine boxes is apparent between the 458 and 375 Zastava actions.

Alderella: Dress her in black leather buttpad over stretchy nylon ammo carrier, and she is happy,
because you tell her it does not make her butt look bigger,
even though it actually does make her butt bigger,
and better fitted to preferred LOP:




Trifecta of perfect fits:
Pachmayr leather buttboot dyed black
Uncle Mike's ammo-carrying negligee
Leupold 2.5X backup to SlugHunter.
Rip ...

I am truly grateful to Ross Seyfried.
Some consider him to be the greatest gun guru of all time,
launching as he did from the shoulders of giants such as Elmer Keith of size 5-1/2 cowboy boot.
A small boot though hard to fill.

I thank Ross Seyfried for becoming openly "defiant" of the .458 Win. by publication of his simple desultory philippic in RIFLE #211 of January 2004.
What a great comedy schtick it has been!
Ross has made my lemonade from his lemons.
I am squeezing those lemons for all they are worth, and milking Ross's "Sacred Cow of Defiance" to make ice cream.

In the January 1990 GUNS & AMMO article "Bone-Bashing Big-Game Bullets" Ross made fun of the .458 Win. Ha ha ha such a comedian!

At the time he wrote (1989) he had fired only .308-caliber Barnes X-Bullets, the new kids in the bullet neighborhood.
And he was very impressed.

He did have more experience with what was being called the "Barnes Super Solid" in 1989:

"My first experience with 'perfect' solids came with the Barnes Super Solids. These bullets are turned in a lathe from a homogeneous brass alloy--no core, no jacket, nothing to go wrong. They are as accurate as any bullet I have ever fired, and their penetration is phenomenal. If there is an area of complaint, it is that the bullets are necessarily longer than a conventional bullet of the same weight.
This is of little or no consequence except in cartridges like the .458 Winchester, where the case capacity is too small for the bore. The use of a 400-grain Super Solid in place of the standard 500-grain bullet is an acceptable, and possibly even beneficial, cure ..."

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.

Rip ...

Another acorn from Ross Seyfried in G&A Mar 1991, "Recoil Management":

"Coping with recoil has a learning curve. If you have something like a .458, start out with 300-grain bullets and modest loads. Work up gradually to full power and full recoil, teaching your muscles and mental patterns how to handle the forces as you go."

Really? Is that necessary even with such an under-powered popgun as the .458 Win.?
Seems like Ross is having his lemon and squeezing it too.

Ross also admitted that he cannot handle more than 4 shots from his .577 NE double rifle at the test range.
He is done for the day after 4 shots, no more.

OK, next post starts page 65.
Don't make me start another page with a John Taylor joke, please!

Rip ...

Groucho Marx: "I once shot an elephant in my pajamas."

John Taylor: "Oh really? Well, I once shot an elephant wearing nothing but a turban, and my favorite gun bearer was dressed the same.
We had a lot of fun together in darkest Africa.
Where that elephant got that turban on his head, I'll never know ..."

And I have one more CZ take-off barrel that might turn a Pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H action into a 7-pound .458 Win.
with a "Brown Pounder" stock.
Parts is parts, and that is a N0.4 sporter contour equivalent with integral sight bases and a barrel recoil lug.
That is as light and tight as possible for a .458 Win. barrel, IMHO.
And the minor diameter of CZ barrel threads is >/= the major diameter of Pre-'64 M70 barrel threads.
Another WinCzechster!
If it ain't a worthy shooter it can be re-barreled again.

Rip ...

If John Taylor had fun in Darkest Africa, was it all done at night or is it dark even during the day? If so, how did they see to shoot?

Ha ha Ray B, that is as funny as Ross Seyfried squeezing the .458 Win. lemon.

quote:

darkest Africa

darkest Africa/South America etc
From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
darkest Africa/South America etc
old-fashioned
the parts of Africa etc about which we know very little – this use is now often considered offensive ...

But it is acceptable in literary context, such as quotations of John Taylor, as vernacular of the day,
or the title of a book:
Work by Sir Henry Morton Stanley
In Darkest Africa (1890) is Stanley’s own account of his last adventure on the African continent. He received a Special Gold Medal from the RGS.
https://www.britannica.com/bio...on-Stanley#ref123913

Rip ...

We don't need no jokes about Pondoro. Now, jokes on Capstick's drunkenness . Or his grasping for book sales by maligning an ivory hunter that had btdt.

RIP; how come no barrel mounted sling attachment ? Keeps the muzzle end from banging into and getting hung up on limbs and stuff when walking thru the brush.

Plus, they look cool

quote:

RIP; how come no barrel mounted sling attachment ? Keeps the muzzle end from banging into and getting hung up on limbs and stuff when walking thru the brush.

Learned that trick from looking at pictures of rifles in Ross Seyfried articles almost 30 years ago.
It finally sunk in, and I quit doing barrel band sling bases.
The .358 STA never got the treatment because it is small bore unlikely to bite my hand, but it wouldn't hurt to do that one two.
The Brockman forend tip sling base is overkill,
using 4 screws in the barrel channel. I have those on a couple of rifles.

Alderella's simple forend tip stud (above)does have a nut on it, and is J-B Welded to the endoskeleton of the HS Precision stock.
It is secure.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Plus, they look cool

Having a barrel band stud just to look cool is kind of metrosexual.

Rip ...

The main reason I like them is they keep the muzzle below top of head level on the barrel lengths I use. And walking thru dense brush is a right at home place for the Four Five Eight

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

RIP; how come no barrel mounted sling attachment ? Keeps the muzzle end from banging into and getting hung up on limbs and stuff when walking thru the brush.

Learned that trick from looking at pictures of rifles in Ross Seyfried articles almost 30 years ago.
It finally sunk in, and I quit doing barrel band sling bases.
The .358 STA never got the treatment because it is small bore unlikely to bite my hand, but it wouldn't hurt to do that one two.
The Brockman forend tip sling base is overkill,
using 4 screws in the barrel channel. I have those on a couple of rifles.

Alderella's simple forend tip stud (above)does have a nut on it, and is J-B Welded to the endoskeleton of the HS Precision stock.
It is secure.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Plus, they look cool

Having a barrel band stud just to look cool is kind of metrosexual.

Rip ...

I do that on some rifles. If I can't put a barrel band on.

Ross Seyfried really worked that anti-458-Winchester schtick. He got a lot of mileage out of it.
Times have changed, the old lamentations are no longer valid.

In the July 1994 G&A "Beltless Magnum Revolution" he said:

"During an African safari some 20 years ago, Tom Siatos envisioned a grand, modern big-bore rifle cartridge. It would suffer neither from the undersized troubles of the .458 Winchester
"Undersized troubles of the .458 Winchester" is right.
Those troubles are so small that they do not even exist anymore.
or the cumbersome size of the .416 Rigby, .378 Weatherby, and the .505 Gibbs, which relegates them to specialized actions. Don't get me wrong, these are all wonderful rounds that I use and respect, but their sheer size limits them to only a few specialized, or highly "gunsmithed," actions.
Oh, I see. For a brief moment there I thought Ross might "use and respect" the .458 Win.
But no, he meant only the cumbersome, over-sized ones.
Tom's cartridge would be the .404 necked up to .45 caliber and become the .460 G&A. The project was given the approval of none other than Elmer Keith and the big boss, Robert E. Petersen. The mechanics were turned over to the resident big-bore guru, ballistician and gunmaker Jack Lott. He finalized the design and commisioned a rifle that, with standard ".375" action, heaved a 500-grain bullet at 2,350 fps. Jeff Cooper adopted the cartridge for his now-famous "Baby," a Brno-actioned buffalo stomper. The big .460 G&A cartridge is used by many knowledgeable riflemen who need a big-bore when it counts. This is in my opinion the finest all-around big-bore cartridge ever created.

"The next G&A round was also brought to life by Jack Lott. This was the .450 G&A Short Magnum. Its purpose was to do what the .458 Winchester tried to do, that is be an effective stopper in the short actions.
At which .458 Win. succeeds mightily today.
Jack shortened the .460 G&A to the .458's 2.5 inches. This cartridge drives the 500-grain bullets at 2,200 fps
Just like the .458 Win. of today.
and can be had as easily as rechambering an existing .458 rifle ...
Ross does not mention loss of magazine capacity and required feed-tuning for the .450 G&A Short Magnum.
"... By so doing, he eliminated the ... doubtful ballistics of the .458."


I wonder if Ross Seyfried is still "defiant" of the .458 Win.?
Anything doubtful about the .458 Win. in the past was due to botched ammo,
hashed by factory trying to keep up with high demand,
or poor handloads with South African cannister powders during embargo days.

I have not yet found anything by Ross Seyfried addressing the one-of-a-kind throating of the SAAMI .458 Win.?
I doubt he ever addressed the pressure-lowering, effective-case-capacity-increasing, accuracy-inducing throat of the .458 Win.
If I ever find anything about that I will report it here, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Ok, RIP. Here we go. For $100 my gunsmith throated my .458 Lott to the necessary depth to load about any bullet I want as long as I want. I can load the 500 gr Barnes TSX & Solid to their last crimp groove. In other words, for $100 the Lott is and always will be .300" longer than the Winnie as a single loader. In a 3.8" box it will out run the Winchester or with some long bullets, they'll tie, if you are a hand loader. Even then, only the Lott will fire all loads from both calibers. That could mean something, given the Lott's understandable popularity for a big bore.

I love both calibers but it's only advantageous to buy the .458 Win Mag if you can't come up with a reamer or $100 or so. Either that or you want a .458 on a .30-06 action....or just are prejudiced against an extra 100 fps.

The first big bore I ever shot was a .458 Win Mag and I love the cartridge. I may have one built on a .30-06 action @ around 7.5#. I also know that the Lott WILL outrun it if throated like I said....about .750" will put it out of Winchester range. Ok RIP....fire away!!!

AFRICAN DANGEROUS GAME CARTRIDGES by Pierre vander Walt, 2011, pp. 324 - 332

"A nice aspect of the .458 Winchester Magnum is that it being so compact, one can actually have handy and light rifles built around it, unless you really are recoil shy. That is important for a dangerous game cartridge and 9 lb (4 kg) rifles present no problem to the regular user.
(This would mean a dry/empty rifle weight of about 7.0 to 7.5 lbs
to achieve a scoped, loaded rifle weight of 9 lbs.
"The truth is that when loaded with spacious cases,
(refers to greater capacity of Winchester and Hornady made brass versus smaller capacity/thicker-walled PMP)
short design 500-grain bullets
(i.e., not the long, monometal 500-grainers)
and long overall length as detailed below,
(see below)
the .458 Winchester Magnum can just about achieve standard velocity levels (2,200 fps) from 24" barrels.
So loaded it is as good a dangerous game cartridge as any.
YAWOHL!
With combinations slower than 2,000 fps it becomes a problem child."
As would any .458/500-grain slinger!

Below:
" My advice is to load the bullets as long as the magazine will permit and then to ensure that the rifle's leade and throat are cut to accommodate that length; effectively making it a wildcat."


We need an "ERRATA - CORRECTION PAGE 328"
The SAAMI & CIP standards for the .458 Winchester Magnum throat will need no cutting!
The rifle is a "wildcat" before cutting if you need to extend its throat!
Pierre got that bassackwards!
Everything else was pretty much right on,
including the load he shows which gives 2,200 fps with 500-gr bullet in a 24"-barreled .458 Win.
Not mentioned is that the load is less than 60,000 psi and short-COL (less than 3.340") with a 500-grain Hornady RNSP.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
Ok, RIP. Here we go. For $100 my gunsmith throated my .458 Lott to the necessary depth to load about any bullet I want as long as I want. I can load the 500 gr Barnes TSX & Solid to their last crimp groove. In other words, for $100 the Lott is and always will be .300" longer than the Winnie as a single loader. In a 3.8" box it will out run the Winchester or with some long bullets, they'll tie, if you are a hand loader. Even then, only the Lott will fire all loads from both calibers. That could mean something, given the Lott's understandable popularity for a big bore.

I love both calibers but it's only advantageous to buy the .458 Win Mag if you can't come up with a reamer or $100 or so. Either that or you want a .458 on a .30-06 action....or just are prejudiced against an extra 100 fps.

The first big bore I ever shot was a .458 Win Mag and I love the cartridge. I may have one built on a .30-06 action @ around 7.5#. I also know that the Lott WILL outrun it if throated like I said....about .750" will put it out of Winchester range. Ok RIP....fire away!!!

srsshooter,

Great!
Of course! You are preaching to the choir!

Can you share some chronographed load data powder charges, bullet, COL?
Accuracy OK?
All of that in the good would support the use of the SAAMI .458 Win. throat,
which is leade-only, 0.6725" of bullet free-travel,
to cure the ails of the .458 Lott.

You are burning more powder for diminishing returns, but that is cool if you get a "kick" out of it,
and want to load +4" COL loads, single-shot style just for kicks.
AA-2230 may no longer be such an efficient powder for you.
Something else might be, though I could not verify that myself just yet.

OK, you can beat any other short-throated .458 Lott, with any bullet, with your long-throated .458 Lott.
I cannot do that with just any old bullet in the SAAMI .458 Win.

I have two .458 Lott rifles with .458 Winchester throats, one on a CZ with 3.8" box, one on a MkX with 3.6" box.
I converted a .458 Lott Ruger No.1 to .450 NE with a very short throat, just for gentle kicks.
I wood've had 4 .458 Win. rifles if Woodelle had not succumbed to a re-chambering to .458 WinRuger,
so I am going to have to have that 4th .458 Win.,
7 lbs. and 3.6" box Pre-'64 M70 is possible: Heavily scoped and loaded 9 lbs weight, field-ready.
That is a 30-06-length action that was opened up to .375 H&H length at the factory: Opened mostly to the rear.
I prefer the .458 Win.
It is definitely enough gun for me.

Rip ...

Load data updated!! Haha!! I just wanted to see if you're still awake. I don't have the data in front of me and I'm sure you already have all the info you need but...I use TAC...and all of it she'll take is fine in my rifle with the Barnes 450 or 500 gr loaded to the last crimp groove. Use 90 or even up to 95 gr if ya like working up slowly from about 85 gr. My groups with 450 gr TSX at 3.960" col are about 1.5" at 100 yds if I do my part in my Ruger No 1. Velocity is about 2500 fps....I can easily drive em faster. I haven't been able to get better than 2" groups with the 500 grainers and kinda gave up on that bullet. I did get 2430 fps with col at about 4.100" (if I remember right), out of it and would wager a pretty penny that I could hit 2600 with a 450 and 2500 with the 500, brass might get a little sticky but probably not bad. I just saw no need to keep going as the 450 at 2500 is all I needed or wanted out of it. I have a .500 A2 and just bought a .585 HE from Mr Hubel. Why push a .458 any harder?

I just thought you went too long unchallenged and that someone should twist your nips and make sure you still had some fire in your belly!!!

I don't think my .458 kicks too bad. All I need to do is fire a few 570 grainers at 2500+ in my .500 A2 (117 gr of TAC, col of 3.760" and 2525 fps in my CZ) and the .458 Lott doesn't seem rough at all!! I'll be saying the same thing about my .500 when I get my new .585 out to the range!! It hasn't got here yet....hopefully by Friday. I'm probably due for another neck surgery...wonder why?

The .458 Win at 2150 fps with a good 500 gr (or a 450 gr) will give any beast the long sleep. I'm actually one of those weirdos that thinks a .45-70 with the right bullet will do fine. Sshhhh, I didn't say that out loud, did I??? Many apologies if that one brings in too much unwanted traffic!!!

The rest is just for "kicks" I reckon....and a little better trajectory. I also kinda had the idea of 2400-2500 fps with a 450 TSX for bison in my Ruger No 1. I had my rifle throated to accomplish that easily. It's just something I wanted. I then thought it would be cool to have an 8,000 fpe rifle to compliment my 6,000 fpe Lott, so I had a .500 A2 built. I just got more froggy and bought a .585 HE for a 10,000+ fpe rifle. I guess it's all for "kicks"....haha!

No doubt. I could do all the hunting the rest of my life with my .375 Weatherby and be just fine. That would be no fun though, would it?

Try more like 90-gr of TAC for 2450 fps and beyond up to about 95 gr for 2550 fps. That's as fast as I've ever ran the Barnes 450 gr TSX at a col of 3.960". At 92 gr I break 2500 in my rifle. I am going to change my earlier post so no one tries anything too crazy!!! I was way off!!

I should also mention that the 95 gr loads were taken at a temperature of 40 degrees. At 90 degrees they may be at 2600 fps or so....could also be sticky hot too but I doubt it. Maybe I should do some more testing while it's warm. My 92 gr load is definitely all I need or want out of a .458 cal anything.

I like the idea of a .450 Nitro for those "pinky erections" as you call them!!!

All this 458 talk has me wondering. Dad gave me his sporterized 1917 Enfield still in ‘06. I need to find out who’s action is in it still. Wondering if it would be better to have it converted to 458 win or just get a model 70 new?

Imho, just get a new Model 70.
Lot of work and expense involved in converting a 17 Enfield.
Or get a stainless Ruger M77 Mk2 in 338 Win mag and have a 1 in 14 twist Shilen stainless barrel screwed on and chambered for 458 Win. Have a good recoil lug soldered under the barrel and bed it in the stock. Stick a scope on it and your in business.

I am going to be using a .458 Win next month in Australia for water buffalo. I have a .416 Rem Mag, so question: how does the recoil of a .458 w/ 500 gr bullets compare with .416 400 gr @ 2400 fps?

Assuming a 9 lb rifle and comparable stock configurations a bit more recoil energy from the 458 WM - 71 ft-lb vs. 67 ft-lb from the 416 RM.

http://www.shooterscalculator....ecoil-calculator.php

416 Rem
.416/400-gr @ 2407 fps burning 77.0 gr of Varget
(53,000 CUP per Hodgdon data)
24" barrel, 10.0-pound rifle:
55.7 ft-lbs
18.9 fps
5.9 lb-sec impulse

458 Win
.458/500-gr @ 2152 fps burning 74.0 gr of Varget
(48,100 CUP per Hodgdon data)
24" barrel, 10.0-pound rifle:
64.3 ft-lbs
20.3 fps
6.3 lb-sec impulse

A little more kick with the .458 Win.
but significantly lower pressure.

Rip ...

4sixteen & Rip:

Thanks guys.

The felt recoil of both is similar. If someone can shoot either well, they can shoot both well.
Same when shooting 458/ 400 gr bullet @ 2400 ish .
Actually , I think for all bullet weights the recoil is by and large the same.
I gotta figure out how to push a 300 gr TSX @ 2900 fps from a 458 Win.
The 416 Rem can do it so the 458 should be able to.
Everyone tends to get all lily livered when the discussion gets over 2700 fps with a 300 gr TSX out of the 458 Win.

From Handloader's Digest, 13th edition. 2700 fps with the 300gr TSX is possible from the 458 WM -



Barnes #3 list 2578 fps maximum for the 300gr TSX from the 458 WM. Getting to 2900 fps seems unattainable. Although I can safely get 2575 fps from my 45-70 Ruger No.1.

Just under 2800 fps is realistic with H4198 and the 300-gr TSX or TTSX,
and that is at only about 60,000 psi
in a 24" barrel.
Several other powders can go over 2700 fps.
RL-7 might get pressures and velocities even higher.
If you want to try some of the pistol powders faster than those fast rifle powders,
I see no sane reason for it.

Rip ...

When the 300 gr X bullet first became available I got some and worked up to 2700 fps in the 458 with IMR4198 . When Hodgdon brought out the Extreme Extruded H 4198 I switched to that with the TSX.
I've never tried Accurate 2015 yet. But would like to with the 300s.
If all I can get is 2700 + then that's OK. It has worked well so far.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I am going to be using a .458 Win next month in Australia for water buffalo. I have a .416 Rem Mag, so question: how does the recoil of a .458 w/ 500 gr bullets compare with .416 400 gr @ 2400 fps?

I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference in recoil between the 2 calibers when shooting factory ammo. Both are very controllable but you know you're shooting a serious cartridge. Only when shooting the .458 Long Col, as described by RIP in these pages, does the .458 Winchester Mag really develop substantially more energy and recoil. I definitely prefer the .458.

Got the 300gr TSX loaded at 2550 fps muzzle speed in my 458 Lott for a hunting load this coming season. A mild load for the Lott. Pretty sure 3000 fps is safely attainable.

However in my experience the 300gr TSX at >2200 fps impact speeds - whether it’s from a 45-70 Ruger, 458 WM or 458 Lott - is a 1 shot stopper on big Elk. Plenty of shock at that threshold impact speed with the 45 caliber TSX. At higher muzzle speeds you get more range but not by much because of the low 0.234 ballistic coefficient. Anyhow better to be carrying my 458 Lott when hunting in big Bear territory I always say because it's a rifle that I trust from experience.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Got the 300gr TSX loaded at 2550 fps muzzle speed in my 458 Lott for a hunting load this coming season. A mild load for the Lott ...

Yep, that is a mild load in the .458 Win. also.

The .458 Lott with the LAW throat is actually a wildcat
that ought to be called the ".458 Winchester Long"
and used in a 3.8" magazine box or single shot.
That makes the .458 Lott into a fine cartridge,
almost as great as a .458 Winchester Magnum.

Rip ...

I wonder if there is any real reason for the 300 gr TTSX 458 Win reloading data to be reduced from the 300 gr TSX ?

Comparing bullet profiles probably more expansion from the 300gr TAC-TX. And has a b.c. of 0.236, only marginally higher than the 300gr TSX at 0.234.

The Cutting Edge Bullets 458 300gr ESP Safari Raptor has a significantly higher b.c. of 0.346 with the tipped installed. More worthwhile then to load at higher muzzle speeds. For example loaded at 2900 fps muzzle speed, effective range is increased dramatically. Begins to narrow the gap on 416 caliber longer range superiority.

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...gr-esp-safari-raptor