Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----

my new mantra !!!

who the hell said that! -- and about what? and when? and where? and how? I think I just might know ''why'' he said it.

Phil is a lot like Trump ''according to Charles Ellis Schumer''

no hat-- all cattle

every time that ugly dog barks something in Rhodesia will incur -- a bad, dog bite

hope he has a low balance on the old credit card --he is going to need it

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Ole Ugly, my 458, is packed and ready to leave for Zimbabwe next week.

I for one can't wait for the hunt report!

quote:

Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win----

my new mantra !!!

ALF

the 458 win mag ''oracle'' - done that, been there-- guy

I get the idea about elephant enamel and /// warning here/// when you load and shoot the 550 woodleighs in the sage 458 win mag -- well, you do put your personal complement of enamel at substantial risk --as well

Old Ugly goes to Africa. Free title for Phil’s upcoming trip report.
The world is looking brighter today!! I wonder if she got a new coat of rustoleum for the trip?

So much good material for THE MISSION!
Surely Bob won't mind a copy and paste from his blog yesterday,
for THE MISSION:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
For interest's sake: Latest report of tests for my Ruger Tropical .458 Win in today's blog.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

From Bob's blog, my comments in red:

Yesterday (Apr. 30/19), I invested a couple of hours at our range (setting up the Chrony, Lead Sled and targets included) firing some new loads. The fastest was a 350gr TSX at 2760 fps/5919 ft-lbs, and the slowest was a 500gr Hornady RN at 2218 fps/5461 ft-lbs. In between were 480gr DGX’s, 450gr TSX’s, a 450gr Swift AF, and 400gr Barnes Busters.

But hey, here is the complete list corrected to MV:
500 Hornady (74 grs A2230) = 2218 (this load gave 2227 in my former CZ550 with a 25″ barrel) COL = 3.56″
500 Hornady (75 grs A2230 = (gave a low – false reading – don’t know why, but it could be increased by 1/2 gr according to case head expansion) COL = 3.56″
500 Hornady (81 grs H335) = 2233 (max load with this powder – max allowable expansion for continued use of case) COL = 3.56″

480 DGX (82 grs H335) = 2262 (low case expansion – could be increased by 1- grain) COL = 3.56″
480 DGX (76 grs A2230 = 2272 (max case expansion) COL = 3.56″

450 TSX (82 grs H335 = 2290 (no brass expansion – this was 1-gr less than a previous test. Will go to 84 grs next time) COL = 3.68″
450 TSX (76 grs A2230)= 2326 (could increase by 1-grain) COL = 3.69″

Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ, 25" barrel, SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. chamber, KDF screw-on muzzle brake
Tubb hBN powder-coated 450-gr TSX bullet
Federal GM215M primer
Hornady brass: all within 2.495" to 2.500" length
COL 3.680" to 3.685", crimped on 4th (last) cannelure
Best load:
82.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2436 fps instrumental, 2448 fps MV, using BC = 0.369 as claimed by Barnes, St.dev. 2.3 fps for 3 shots, 0.33-MOA 3-shot group
Loads went all the way to 84.0 gr, in 1-grain increments, but there were diminishing returns:
84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2457 fps instrumental, 2469 fps MV, St.dev. = 5.8 fps for 3 shots, no group because scope finally loosened in the CZ rings.
(I got careless with the ring-top screws loose and no silicone adhesive between rings and scope.
Rather heavy fixed 10-X Bushnell target scope too.
Since then I have switched to a "custom" Double-Seyfried-Schtick 2-Piece Picatinny [8x40-ed & J-B-ed] with Burris Extreme Tactical rings, and lighter scopes.)

I started at 80 grains of AA-2230 with the hBN-ed 450-gr TSX.
I do not have a load as low as the 76 grains by Bob (2326 fps MV in 24" ported barrel)
to compare the hBN-treated versus untreated,
but I'll get around to that eventually.
Thus far I have been mighty close to Bob's results with my results.

450 Swift AF (84 grs H335) = 2414/5822 ft-lbs (max with this powder for continued use of the case. This bullet has responded very well in my rifle.)
COL = 3.565″

That is great to hear, and I note that those are the new .457"-diameter Swift A-Frames.
I hope you will try those with the latest version (since 2016) of AA-2230.
I might have to get some of those Swift A-Frames, 450-grain and 500-grain too,
the longer, the better to LongCOL with.

400 Barnes Buster (83 grs H335) = 2381 COL = 3.28″
400 Barnes Buster (83 grs H335) = 2388 (These are hard bullets, and case head expansion is near max. So I’ll not try to increase this load more than 1/2 gr) COL = 3.28″

Chimera WinCZechster, CZ barrel 24-7/8", SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. chamber, no brake
400-gr Barnes Buster
F215 primer
Hornady brass
COL 3.285"
76.0 grains H322 >>> 2371 fps instrumental, 2388 fps MV, using BC = 0.242 as claimed by Barnes, St.dev. 13 fps, 1.84-MOA 3-shot group
Next trial WITH FILLER, foam wad, to eliminate powder shake:
80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2386 fps instrumental, 2403 fps MV, St.dev. 5 fps, 1.46-MOA 3-shot group ,
The Barnes BUSTER is not the most accurate of bullets, but is a tough one.
Has a tiny pin hole in the flat nose that might make it explode at higher MV,
might be best to keep these down to hard-cast lead performance at lower MV, and close range use.

350 TSX (81 grs H4198) = 2760/5919 ft-lbs (This is the same result I received from my former CZ550 with 1-grain less at 80 grs. But the CZ had a 1-inch longer barrel. Pressure was not over max.) COL = 3.46″

Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ, 25" barrel, SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. chamber, KDF screw-on muzzle brake
Tubb hBN powder-coated 350-gr TSX bullet
WLRM primer (to be like Bob)
Hornady brass: all within 2.495" to 2.500" length
COL 3.440" to 3.445", crimped on 3rd (last) cannelure
Best load was my maximum-tried charge:
81.0 grains H4198 >>> 2788 fps instrumental, 2806 fps MV, using BC = 0.271 as claimed by Barnes, St.dev. 7.9 fps for 3 shots, 0.93-MOA 3-shot group
Well, close counts here, just like in horse shoes and hand grenades.
My barrel was an inch longer.
My barrel is a Shilen, not Ruger.
And I seated my bullets to about 3.45" instead of 3.46". Deeper by 0.01"!
Deeper seating, higher pressure, higher velocity, or did the Tubb hBN make some difference?
If it made any difference, it was not much.
Probably not worth the trouble.

Now, what could I do with all that?

First of all, they are test loads for my Ruger No.1 in .458.

Secondly: I’ll do some over, and increase some loads giving more opportunity to A2230 and H4895.

Thirdly: I plan on some reduced loads, like the 480 DGX that shows real promise at around 1750 – 1800 fps. That will likely be through the use of RL-15.

Also, I have a couple more reduced loads, garnered from my former CZ:
405 Remington at just over 2000 using RL-15, and the
350 Hornady using the same load of RL-15

A BRUSH RIFLE?

Yeah, I have one… maybe a couple!

I know, I know, the .458 is NOT “light”, but it is handy. At over 10 lbs, and with the ports, it makes life very bearable in the recoil department. But if a big bruin shows up here this spring, recoil will only be like a normal 12-gauge turkey load.

Oh yeah… about points 5,6 and 7 — My Ruger No.1 and Tikka T3 aren’t “Safe Queens”; and surely you’ve noticed that handloads are the only way to improve the ballistics of any rifle, and they both have good scopes for real close or far; and dark places….

That is a gem of wisdom, at least diamond class.

“But it’s a single-shot!”, some would cry out in alarm! I KNOW THAT! How many shots do you need?

That is a gem too, rhinestone class, but very funny.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Ole Ugly, my 458, is packed and ready to leave for Zimbabwe next week.

Phil,

Excellent choice of firearm!
Break a leg!
May the red gods smile upon you!
Bon voyage, etc.
For THE MISSION!

Rip ...

I have made a serious omission in the ancestry of the .458 Winchester Magnum: Alexander Henry.



Joseph Whitworth:
Mechanical engineer, the Albert Einstein of his day, who was assigned by the British military to "improve" the .577-caliber Enfield muzzle loader of the day.
He had to work within constraints of 530 grains of lead and 70 grains of black powder for the year-1852 assignment.
The result was a smallbore shooting a conical bullet from a .451"-bore with 1:20" twist.
It was phenomenally more effective when tested in military trials of 1857.
He tested twist rates from 1:78" to 1:1".
His patent of 1854 for the rifling pattern was not as important as establishing the bore diameter and the twist rate best with the lead and powder.
World-wide infatuation with the .45-bore rifle was born.

Alexander Henry:
If rifle building was boxing, he would be Muhammad Ali.
In 1865-1866, he pioneered the .450 3-1/4" BP cartridge to go in the breech loaders starting to replace the muzzle loaders.
Henry's cartridges were patented in 1869.
He built the finest of rifles for the cartridge too.
This quickly developed into drawn brass cartridges for BP and Nitro-for-BP "Express" cartridges and rifles.
His bullet design (also patented in 1869) for a 480-grain, paper-patched target bullet won the day, and most tournaments for a long while.
He may have been born (1828, according to Winfer) (Donald Dallas says Alex Henry was born in 1818) a decade or more before John Rigby (1829-1916). Alex Henry died in 1894,
just about the time Old Man Rigby started developing Henry's cartridge into the Cordite-loaded .450 Special Rigby, full nitro of 1897-1898.
R.I.P. Alexander Henry (1818-1894), father of the center-fire .450-bore military and sporting rifles.

John Rigby:
If Riflery-in-general was mixed martial arts, he would be Chuck Norris.
Creator of the .450 S. Rigby of 1897-1898, later known as the .450 Nitro Express, of the twentieth century's new class of cartridges.
480-grain jacketed .458-caliber bullet at 2150 fps. That bullet weight was a winner for Henry and Rigby.

Holland & Holland Co.:
Coned up breech circa 1903, and H&H belted brass that developed into the .375 H&H of 1912.

Westley Richards Co.:
The .425 Westley Richards of circa 1908 was a compact and powerful cartridge with a long, leade-only throat. It fit in a standard action and performed all out of proportion to its size.
It was the first "Short Magnum."
No doubt the .425 WR was an inspiration contributory to the .458 Winchester Magnum of 1956.

Birmingham Small Arms Co.:
Their failed .40 BSA of circa 1920 was a .375 H&H necked up to a straight-taper .400-bore. They also did a .26-bore and a .33-bore, stopping short at .40-bore.
James Watts did not stop short on the caliber up-sizing, and his cartridge did not fail.

James A. Watts:
Born July 11, 1913 in Mulvane, Kansas.
Died December 19, 1995 in Anchorage, Alaska, USA.
Creator of the .450 Watts Magnum, .450 Watts Short, .450 Alaskan, and .416 Taylor.
Others got credit for most of his work, doing minor variations on it and calling it their own.
He had been trying since 1946, via correspondence, to get Winchester to neck up the .375 H&H to accept .458-caliber bullets.
He finally did it himself in 1949.
He gave Winchester the go-ahead to take over the .450 Watts Short about 1955.

Winchester Repeating Arms Co.:
1955-1956: Winchester turned the .450 Watts Short into the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Perfection.

Rip ...

There was no known photograph of Alexander Henry, according to Walter G. Winfer, writing in 1995-1997, publishing first edition 1997,
second edition 2011:



Above is a .450 BP 3-1/4" rifle, right side.
Below is back cover of the book. The top rifle below is the left side of same .450 BP 3-1/4" rifle.



Rip ...

ALF,

Thanks for that.
Wal Winfer's book, written in 1995 from Melbourne, Australia, got a few details wrong then, still being published in 2011 as second edition, without correction. He pleaded therein for someone to come up with a photograph of Alexander Henry.
Donald Dallas straightened out the birth date too.
Winfer's book is still a great start to his 8 volume series, a great book about a pivotal rifle builder.

I will have to have the Donald Dallas book, of 2017, as possible:



Published as a private publication for Donald Dallas by Quiller Publishing 2017. 12"x10" hardback, 328 pages 350 photographs. Price £60 excluding postage.

This book gives an in depth history of Edinburgh rifle maker Alexander Henry.
Born in 1818, he was apprenticed to Thomas Mortimer and subsequently set up on his own in 1852 at South St Andrew Street.

In 1860 he took out one of the most famous patents of the 19th century that created the extremely accurate Henry rifling. He invented a falling block action in 1865 that became the most popular and successful of all such actions.

In 1870 he gave his name to weapon of the British Army, the Martini-Henry rifle. His rifles were revered for their accuracy and his Dimensions Books contain thousands of orders from British and European royalty, the aristocracy, Indian Maharajahs and big game hunters. Alexander Henry died in 1894 and the business continued until 1950.

LIMITED EDITION OF 750 SIGNED AND NUMBERED COPIES
EVERY SINGLE HENRY GUN/RIFLE LISTED WITH DETAILS (Over 8000)
THE FIRST DEFINITIVE HISTORY OF ALEXANDER HENRY

http://donalddallas.com/henry.html

Rip ...

This thread

only place in the known universe to-- really learn-- the full history of the 458 win mag


what came first the 1957 460 wby or the 1956 .458 win mag

we know the Lott came in a distant last

seems everyone liked, copied, modified a bit-- the combination-- Henry discovered, developed,prove up on then gifted --to the shooting world

I shall correct my ".458 Winchester Magnum Ancestory" with the 1818 birth date of Alexander Henry.

In 1859 he would have been only 41 years of age,
yet he has what it takes to be an excellent physician:
A grey beard for the look of wisdom.
And a pained expression of concern, hopefully not due to a case of hemorrhoids,
maybe from the cold wind blowing up his kilt?
Clan Henry plaid, no doubt, made from the wool of Scottish sheep, using the urine of Clan Henry women to set the dye.
(Yes, I watch OUTLANDER on Starz.)



"The First Scottish Volunteer March 1859 -- Alex Henry"

Same year as formation of the NRA of UK.
The USA, indeed THE ENTIRE WORLD, owes much to the old colonial master.
Add the .45-bore sporting rifle to that list.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
... what came first the 1957 460 wby or the 1956 .458 win mag ...

Of course you know that James A. Watts visited Roy Weatherby in person just before the latter came out with the .460 Weatherby Magnum.
Oh well, it was a nice little summer vacation road trip anyway, from Washington State down to Southern California, pulling a little trailer to haul some gear.
Being a high school teacher and coach had its perks, summer vacation time being a big one.
Watts got around.
He visited P.O. Ackley about barrels and Fred N. Barnes about bullets,
before Roy Weatherby.
He was pestering Winchester first, before any of the others.
James A. Watts was a busy bee, .458-caliber cartridges sprung up wherever he pollinated,
flitting about post WWII.

Rip ...

Took a man with some stick time on the big browns

to stimulate a slick er en snot, brought to the surface like a 458 win mag, --can and often-- produces [both ends],SALESMAN

for the 460 idea to become the big bad dog it has become

I would shoot my one, more --it's just that, it is not so lively and lovely ---as Phil testifies about J.P. Smithsons 458 win mag, when it dances to the rhythm of the -FIVE DOWN AND ONE IN THE TUBE -- song with a deep base note, attenuating the primitive 1/3/2 DRUM- DRUM DRUM DRUM-DRUM DRUM beat

I prefer shooting my .458 WIN to the beat of "Another One Bites the Dust" by Queen, or same/same "Stayin' Alive" by the Bee Gees.

Rip ...

WoW! it seems running in the wrong crowd has drawn out even more bad-- in my unknown even to me-flawed character

I find myself now referencing ALF in every post

stradling,

Every now and then you might want to shoot the .360 BP 2-1/4" with some light recoiling smokeless loads with H4198.
That will conserve snot and enamel on your end of the rifle.
Wal Winfer had some good handloading recipes on pages 184-185 of his book, BRITISH SINGLE SHOT RIFLES -- Volume 1 -- ALEXANDER HENRY,
excerpts presented here for book review purpose.
Book Review: An excellent book.

Page 184:



Page 185 is devoted entirely to the .360 Black Powder Express 2-1/4":

Page 38:

Page 97:



Continued on page 127 of THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Page 97 excerpt of Wal Winfer's "British Single Shot Rifles -- Volume 1 -- Alexander Henry":

Page 181:

Page 98: Origin of the 480-grain, jacketed, .450 NE bullet was the paper-patched, cast lead match-winner of Alex Henry:

Page 79:

Load data for early ancestor of the .458 WIN:





British "Albert Einstein": Joseph Whitworth
Scottish "Muhammad Ali": Alexander Henry
Irish "Chuck Norris": John Rigby

Hooray for the NRA of the UK!
Long live the Queen!
And long live the King, the .458 WIN!

Rip ...

RIP--stradling,

Every now and then you might want to shoot the .360 BP 2-1/4" with some light recoiling smokeless loads with H4198.
That will conserve snot and enamel on your end of the rifle.


excellent point

point taken

thank you

PS I am not sucking up to you RIP just trying to set a bit of a better example for ''shoot-way'' while washing some of the black off my soul -- double dipping you might say - even that-not all that good for character development

Another photo of Alexander Henry has been found.
Here the young Alex approvingly supervises the wool dyeing ceremonies at Clan Henry, making kilts.
His girlfriend was a playful lass.
The .450-bore sporting rifle was yet just a gleam in his eye:

Yep, amazingly alike, Alex hardly aged at all between the two photos.

Notice the "John Henry" sledge hammer, an early advertising gimmick for Alexander Henry, whose .450-bore sporting rifles delivered like the Hammer of Thor.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
... Another thing I don't get is infatuation with small groups with these big calibers. It might help when trying to brain a hippo or croc, and don't get me wrong - I will take as much accuracy as I can get, but if a big bore puts them into 2 inches (not hard at all) or even better 1.5 inches, who cares? ...

This aspect of THE MISSION is to show that the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum does not suffer from accuracy problems due to the long throat.
It is an accurate throat.
It also allows the .458 WIN to perform "all out of proportion" to length of cartridge.
Just like the .425 WR did in 1908 as the first "short magnum" using a long, leade-only throat.
The SAAMI .458 Lott is doomed.

Rip ...

I have the Donald Dallas book on Alexander Henry on the way.
Mr. Dallas said he would put in the "air mail" Monday.
He also has some other great books, one is a history of British Sporting Rifles from 1850 to 1900.
That will be coming to me too, as soon as he gets another copy of it from the publisher.

I am guessing that Alexander Henry perfected the paper-patching that was used in military ammo with the .577/.450 Martini-Henry rifle.
So, the old Sharps loads might have derived from Alexander Henry's work.
Likely the USA conversion from .50-70 Govt. of 1866 to .45-70 Govt. of 1873 was a copycatting of the British move from .58-bore to .45-bore cartridges.
The .50-70 Govt. might have beat the .577 Snider,
but the British won the Rifle Race to .450-bore military and sporting breech loaders.
Thanks to Alexander Henry.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:

quote:

but the British won the Rifle Race to .450-bore military and sporting breech loaders

yada yada yada Blah blah blah!

That's the spirit Alf, for THE MISSION!

... but the euro's had it all sewn up..... the race was won even before it was started

But who among them beat the British to the .450-bore rifle, whether muzzle loader of the 1850's or center-fire breech loader of the 1860's?

Whilst wallowing on the mire of black powder smoke and soot the French and Swiss had it all ! Small caliber high sectional density monometals and jacketed bullets with velocities and ranges not possible with BP and the Germans followed in close step !

I believe we have previously mentioned the French 8mm Lebel of 1886 (with BRASS MONOMETAL SPBT!), and how the Brits dithered with their .303 BP until 1892,
when John "Chuck Norris" Rigby finally got it converted to Cordite loading.
Then, forced to retire at age 65 from his government job, Rigby was free to transform Alex Henry's .450-BP-3.25" into a .450 Special Rigby/Nitro Express,
using all his political and trade connections to do it.
He also used a Henry favorite bullet weight for the .450-bore, but in jacketed form, a .458-caliber/480-grain bullet.
Now there was the HUNTING revolution, a smokeless .450-bore replacing all the old 4-bore-BP blunderbusses and such.


Whilst we cannot negate the importance of the 45 in history it was done for before it was conceived !

Not so. Was not the .450-bore muzzle loader with 1:20" twist a quantum leap by Joseph Whitworth and the Brits in 1852-1854?
That was 30 years before the smokeless-smallbore revolution with the military rifle.
We have since used smokeless powder in the .450-bore too, now have we not?
Wow! Now there is a quantum leap from the smokeless small-bore to the smokeless big-bore rifle for HUNTING,
even if not the best for man-wounding warfare by attrition of the enemy using resources to care for all the non-dying wounded.

And we have proof of the Euro "little gun" superiority when it was put to test in battle against the old 45 BP



The hard truth ! 1884 the revolution in arms design !

Velocity goes up way way up
bullet diameter shrinks
Sectional density goes up way way up and with it a lethality capability that would revolutionize war and hunting !

You are conflating warfare and big game hunting ALF.
Did you forget about the semi-automatic action improvement?
Are we all to join the Black Rifle Brigade and hunt buffalo with a small-bore, smokeless, semi-automatic?
And whatever happened to the romance and nostalgia a collector like you is so full of?
It is HISTORY man! History!
Fascinating stuff to tease out how the smokeless .458 WIN came to be: Perfection.
Smokeless, perfect-velocity/sectional-density, and
nice bullet diameter for the biggest game.
Not too big, not too heavy, not too punishing for the shooter.
It has been said before, now with a twist:
The .458 WIN is the Goldilocks of hunting rifles, not of man-crippling rifles.

Rip ...

Alf,

True, and let us not conflate commercial elephant hunting with sport hunting (buffalo too) and PAC work.
Mike Lagrange, Ron Thomson, etc., preferred a .458 WIN for culling.

Yes, I am having fun with this, thank you.
The .458 Winchester Magnum is an old flame of mine, since 1984.
Always better second time around.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
... In its original factory offered form it was flawed period !
Even the originator admitted as much
But the flaw was overcome with hand loading and some mcgivering of the bullet seating. ...

Who was the "originator" that admitted the .458 Winchester Magnum was flawed?
Do you have a reference for that claim, or did you just make it up based on an
interpretation of James A. Watts grumbling to Cal Pappas in THE BOOK?

Or was it Harvey B. Anderson, the Yakima, WA gunsmith of James A. Watts?
A 1950 copyright on the .450 Watts Magnum was referenced for advertising purposes by Anderson. He claimed some wild things for the .450 Watts Magnum:
2563 fps with 500-grainer
and
2943 fps with 400-grainer

Claims of the .458 Winchester Magnum being "flawed" require careful interpretation, including knowledge of the source.
Fake news is all too common, always has been.

Rip ...

Speaking of the 460 G&A, why hasn’t anyone done a simple neck up of the 404 Jeffery AKA 450-404 Jeffery? 20 thou shoulders are plenty. Full circle 450 NE to 450/400 NE to rimless 450/400 to 404 and then back to 450 with a 404 case that came from the 450 anyway and voila! 450-404.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Speaking of the 460 G&A, why hasn’t anyone done a simple neck up of the 404 Jeffery AKA 450-404 Jeffery? 20 thou shoulders are plenty. Full circle 450 NE to 450/400 NE to rimless 450/400 to 404 and then back to 450 with a 404 case that came from the 450 anyway and voila! 450-404.

why not neck-up the 404?

Inefficient design with a neck as long as a giraffe.

A much simpler and better idea would be to neck up a 416 Ruger. And yes, with a Winnie throat for those who may want to make use of magnum-length actions. But a simple 458 Ruger in an '06-length action would be plenty.

Personally, for an all-around rifle I am happy at .416". It allows better 300-yard trajectories with pretty good BC in monometals. (For example, a 350gn TTSX with .444BC and .29 SD at 2600fps or 330 GSC at 2650fps in a little 416 Ruger.) It would be a sweet carry. All it's missing is Jack O'Connor to sing its praises. Just saying.

boom stick,

Alf is right.
Just necking up to .458 with the 8.5-degree shoulder of the .404 Jeffery would not be adequate to head-space.
You might get case head separations on the first fire-forming.
Sharpen the shoulder to 30 degrees like on the .416 Ruger and .416 Dakota, and go to town.

4sixteen,

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.
I think the .458 WIN can handle any hunting needs inside of 400 yards.
Most of us humans can get a little closer if need be.
Sure makes life a lot simpler than fussing with those needle bullets.

Rip ...

quote:

The SAAMI .458 Lott is doomed.

Long live the .458 Ruger.

Some people like long necks

If carts can headspace off the extractor, why not a shallow shoulder?

Thank you boom stick.

"Rimless" cartridges with inadequate shoulders are the only ones that could possibly make use of headspacing on the extractor or (ARGH!) case mouth.

A flanged OR belted cartridge has a secure stop regardless of how the extractor grips the breech end of the cartridge.

That is why I like either of the BALLISTIC TWINS, the .458 WIN or the .45-100 Sharps-Winchester-Throated, in a Ruger Number One.

I now believe the Ruger No.1 extracts and ejects just fine with flanged or belted cases.
It is the rimless cases that I am now leery of in a Ruger No.1,
but I suppose that is no problem either as long as it is for a cartridge with a good and strong shoulder for headspacing,
as long as the ammo headspace matches the rifle chamber well.

Just to ring THE MISSION BELL I will review the only case head separation I have ever experienced, and ask for comments from "sumbuddy who know" as to
whether I have the problem pegged.

Rip ...