quote:

I tell you what though, I have a bunch of left over 375 HH brass, used to make everything I needed out of it, 358 STA, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, so 375 HH brass is a good thing, make useful cartridges out of it! Suppose the 375 Ruger brass is a good thing too, there's no telling what sort of useful cartridges can be made from that stuff! So you see, even I can find something good about 375 RUger and HH, good brass to make other real caliber cartridges!


How's that work for ya?


Michael

The only brass I used for my 340 WBY was .375 H&H! It was donated by someone at the range who didn't handload. He asked if I could use it...

I'm not as negative about the .375s as Michael, but I tend to have a similar perspective. I like Big Bores, and the .375s just don't qualify!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Here is some 375 H&H Crono info.

Fired from a Blaser R 93 Tracker barrel [50 cm, 19 3/4"], all Federal Factory loads.

250gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaw, 2525fps. This is a 3/4ths, to 7/8ths % power level load according to Federal.

260gr Accubond, 2536fps.

300gr Nosler Partition, 2372 fps.

All the above are averages of 2 rounds fired over the chrono.

I was at the range and a buddy has his chrone set up so I quickly fired a few rounds over it to get an idea of the speed of the different loads.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

...however, dave, you have expressed you lack of interest, then interest, then lack.. etc ...

Was I, or am I, on your so-called Luddites list?

Dave,
no, dave ... luddite certainly isn't the first thing that comes to mind

Jeffe

Hey, send me a PM with your address and tell me how I can help out with some of the finance of this project? At least let me help a bit with the cost. While I don't have a dog in this particular specific fight, I do have an interest. What you will learn from this would be the same efficiency that would come from the AR cartridges and the B&M Cartridges as opposed to all based on the H&H case, nearly regardless of caliber. As I believe strongly as caliber increases the efficiency of the shorter fatter cartridges increases because of inside volume increases, allowing equal or superior performance from shorter and handier barrels. What is proven with the Ruger case, will be even more enhanced with the larger AR and B&M cases!!!!! So in that respect I have great interest in it. So let me know what I can do to help, Count me In!

Michael

Thanks MM - I am persuing the ammo and a ruger reamer .. let me have a couple days to see what i can come up with!

anyone got a couple p14s WITH dog ears on them,?

Need your 375 HH and ruger 300 gr loads.
Specifically, your 300gr hornady bullets loaded at
HH - 2500fps in a 24" barrel
ruger - 2660 in a 24" barrel, or 2640 in a 23" barrel.

Please don't send faster loads, as we are after testing the published/book loads of these rounds.

thanks

After all of this bandwidth, or whatever they call it, can this question be answered.

Can the .375 Ruger be a cartridge for the world?
In other words, one gun for everything? Not should it, but could it?

.. it can't be answered.. there's no "one cartridge" ,, if there was, we would have the 7x57 ... bell did just fine with it

where the US has the 30-06, large parts of the world have the 303 .. where british empire (former) have the 375 hh, there's the 9,3x62 .. and so on.

This is NOT to be "is this "the one"" type of test. Rather, head to head, what do you GET

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
After all of this bandwidth, or whatever they call it, can this question be answered.

Can the .375 Ruger be a cartridge for the world?
In other words, one gun for everything? Not should it, but could it?

COULD the 375 Ruger be a cartridge for the world? Yes, but it would be a little much on prairie dogs.

I have monitored this thread for a while and setting the two cartridges aside, for the first time I handled a Ruger African rifle (the blued / wood version). I think it is a nice light trim rifle you could carry all day long. Nice open sights as well. It might smack you a bit due the the weight or lack of. I do not recall a production rifle in a H&H that come in this light. Not fancy and you would not curse if you accidently dropped it and it would not pain you if you loaned it to a friend.
Pretty neat cartridge as well.

EZ

2 ab barrels arrived today .. 26" .. anyone got a 375 ruger reamer and headspace guage that they are willing to loan me?

What r u going to do with all those 1" sections of 375 barrel? Make a necklace?
Maybe make some kind of pistol cart with the 16" left over sections?

i'll have them powder coated hot pink for you, boomie

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i'll have them powder coated hot pink for you, boomie

it just would so compliment the ears

Hey... You are the one who bought pink!
Cool that you caught the fireball shooting the 470 in that pic.
Do u still have the video of me shooting the 470, 550 Gibs and 577 NE?

jeffe

wouldent it be more a appel = appel with the 375 weatherby.

to me it seems that you are just setting up a test to fail the H&H, which is off course your choise, to me it just seems like a waste of your time and resources.

no skin of my back, i find them both about the most useless small bores there is, in any lineup to big to be good as a small bore, way to small to be worth anything as a big bore

the worst part is that they are both rimless and therefore useless in any weapon of any importence

best

peter

Peter
"Everyone" says the ruger can't do what it says it can do, and the HH is enough .. fair enough, let's test that.

No, comparing to the 375 weatherby isn't practical, as there aint no 375 weatherby in africa, but "Everyone" says hh is common as pebbles.

Just trying to actually compare what is stated, rather than drempt up to compensate for the HH's actual historical, likely-to-be-found-in-a-shop-in-africa loads

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Peter
"Everyone" says the ruger can't do what it says it can do, and the HH is enough .. fair enough, let's test that.

No, comparing to the 375 weatherby isn't practical, as there aint no 375 weatherby in africa, but "Everyone" says hh is common as pebbles.

Just trying to actually compare what is stated, rather than drempt up to compensate for the HH's actual historical, likely-to-be-found-in-a-shop-in-africa loads

Hi, I'm kind of confused about the reason behind this test. Are you going to compare the H&H that most people find in Africa to the Ruger ammo that most people find in Africa? I've got a feeling that the H&H would win this one by about 2500 fps.

Is the purpose of this test to compare case efficiency? If this is the case, why not test identical loads (powder charges and bullets).

Placing restrictions on the ammo that can be used in the test seems like more of a test of load development, and I would hope that loading technology has improved in the last 100 years or so.

PWN
this purpose is SIMPLE
Take the 375HH, which is 300gr at 2500 and compare it to the so-called mythical 375 ruger loads, 300gr at 2660, and then start shortening the barrels.

Why not compare the freak loads? Well, those decrying the 375HH is all you ever need AND the ammo is available in africa can NOT, without a logical fallocy or being hypcrites, then claim to compare the hornady super performance 375 Ammo, as EVEN WITH that load added into the group, the avaerage of all FACTORY 375 HH ammo i could find (about 14 loads) is 2496.67 ..

So, "aint available in africa" applies to the super duper HH loads, as well.

Finding out which one does what, exactly, in what length barrel is a good reason to try.


There's the other stuff of "the 375 ruger can't make book" is also a great reason to do this test.

Also, testing superduper hand loads aint the point.. as the "Africa" crowd (dude, this is big bores, not african hunting..) also decries "what happens if you loose your ammo" which means the superduper loads are gone.

Comparing factory ammo to factory ammo, both being at or near the book/stated/published/nostalgic velocities is the ONLY fair comparison.

I'm not trying to say that it won't be a great test, but the Ruger is loaded using Superformance technology and is just as unavailable in Africa as the Superformance H&H loads.

To me, it seems like two separate test are being done at the same time:

1. Can the Ruger make book velocities?

2. How does barrel length affect the 375s?

That's pretty well it..
except the ONLY 300gr load for the ruger is "super performance" ..

Here's a funny.. some of the same people saying the ruger CAN'T make its book/stated vels THEN turn around and say that you can load the 375HH faster "anyway"...

except the ruger is a larger case, and for ANY velocity achievable by both, with proper loadings, the ruger would be less pressure.

I guess I'm kind of torn on the issue. I like the Ruger, but I like the H&H too. I was down at my local shop about two months ago trying to find one of the lefty ruger africans that had the factory-installed barrel band swivel stud. I was ready to order one, but I found a Heym lefty bolt gun in H&H that I liked better. I guess I don't see much difference in the two rounds. I bought the H&H more for the rifle than the cartridge, but I was ready to buy the Ruger for the same reason.

isn't about better.. its about facts .. and if you want a shorter barrel, what are the real world, proven, changes you'll face... buy em both, or neither.. doesn't matter, just be informed

Jeffe,

I got a p14 with the ears on it. I have been waiting for 2 weeks for a friend of ours to send me a check so I can send it to him. If the check is not here by thursday I'll bring the action this weekend. When will I get it back? Will it be worth more after these infamous "tests"?

Also.....Berit said 2300 with a 300 grainer is plenty fast...will kill anything in Africa. So 2500 vs 2660 is all just a bunch of marketing crap.

To be perfectly honest, I'd like to see how the 378 fairs from barrels shorter than 24 inches.

Andy

Nah, nothing to say, but just didn't want to have to chase this thread to page 8 before it took off. . . . . . . .

LOL...
barrels in hand
HH reamer in hand
ammo in shippment
ruger reamer in shippment
enfields handy
will have to turn another mule stock
will scope them, i reckon
couple weeks out, but its moving

What do see in this photo? The projectile has departed the barrel. Do you see any muzzle jump? No! It is interesting that the recoil action is just beginning. I have always questioned this "recoil arc" scenario. Most of the recoil associated with a shot is generated as the projectile departs the barrel. After I departed college I worked for a DOD contractor with some recoiless relative to standard projectiles weaponary. We noted this scenario in high speed film. When the pressure is released from the barrel and the projectile departs is when we experience most if not 99% of the recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
it just would so compliment the ears

it shows that boomie is a recoil sponge and the recoil pad is cut pertty much square to the bore ... other than that, i have some opinions on recoil that are only clear up above 70# or so .. but they are just opinions ...

that shot was a 500gr bullet at about 2200fps, in a light for caliber rifle.. iirc, it was way under 10# with scope, sling, and 3 rounds

quote:

Originally posted by wboggs:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

wow.. here's a great body of work on a lot of pistol rounds!

I make it look easy because I was taught by the best (Thanks El Jeffe) I also made shooting the 550 Gibs in a light for caliber gun look easy. The way I held the gun along with a good stock design that was custom made for me (Thanks El Jeffe) the gun went back but it was already pushed back in my shoulder by me. There was only a few inches of muzzle rise as in this video with the 550 Gibs You see the barrel go up about 5" shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTnCqaHJSEc

Shooting he 470 in the pic I think the muzzle rose a few inches.

Stock design and technique go a long way not to mention I am not a small guy.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
What do see in this photo? The projectile has departed the barrel. Do you see any muzzle jump? No! It is interesting that the recoil action is just beginning. I have always questioned this "recoil arc" scenario. Most of the recoil associated with a shot is generated as the projectile departs the barrel. After I departed college I worked for a DOD contractor with some recoiless relative to standard projectiles weaponary. We noted this scenario in high speed film. When the pressure is released from the barrel and the projectile departs is when we experience most if not 99% of the recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
it just would so compliment the ears

http://www.blackbearheaven.com...ord-girzzly-bear.htm

The 375H&H can make for a light and easy to handle hard hitter that even little girls can shoot well Cannot say anything bad about the cartridge. Same goes for the 375 Ruger, cannot say anything bad about that cartridge either. Both are outstanding performers with a good load in a good rifle.

Though I'm a fan of the H&H, if both were started out today as newly introduced cartridges, loaded as they are today, the H&H would never make it and would fail. Fortunately the H&H is long in the tooth with a historic track record to keep it afloat for us to enjoy today. In that context, the Ruger can never replace the H&H. But, the Ruger has proven to be a great cartridge that can stand on its own without any need for the H&H to fall. Choose either one or both without any need for a JOUST.

Best

I must be doing something really odd with my .375 H&H. I'm using H4350 and the 300gr. Sierra. Hodgdon lists 81.5gr. as max load...

My 300gr. SGK load is 80.0gr. H4350 and I get a remarkably consistent 2,550 fps.

That's with a 20" bbl. on a Montana '99 action.

Given my own experience, I just don't quite understand the "Jousting" with the .375 Ruger. It's a great cartridge that with larger case capacity should be able to deliver a bit more velocity. Does that make it king? In my opinion, no. It just makes it another option for folks to work with.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Why not compare the freak loads? Well, those decrying the 375HH is all you ever need AND the ammo is available in africa can NOT, without a logical fallocy or being hypcrites, then claim to compare the hornady super performance 375 Ammo, as EVEN WITH that load added into the group, the avaerage of all FACTORY 375 HH ammo i could find (about 14 loads) is 2496.67 ..

So, "aint available in africa" applies to the super duper HH loads, as well.

Jeffe
Not to start a pissing match, but you are wrong to state that "those decrying the 375HH is all you ever need AND the ammo is available in africa can NOT, without a logical fallocy or being hypcrites, then claim to compare the hornady super performance 375 Ammo."

If you want to use "super performance" ammo or hand-loads in your H&H for hunting in Africa you can take them over with you. If your ammo is lost or stolen you can replace it with PMP or whatever you happen to find there and keep hunting with your 375H&H using the tried and true 300gr@2500fps load.

If you take a 375 Ruger and your ammo is lost you are going to be using your Ruger as a club.

Or you will have to borrow a rifle.....


Anyway, I look forward to your tests. And I think you need to stop taking all the 375 Ruger bashing so personally. The guys who bash the Ruger with silly arguments like "it won't do what they state it will" are basically admitting that they believe that the claimed performance makes the Ruger theoretically superior to the 375H&H.

I believe the Ruger numbers, but I don't feel they add up to a hill of beans. I have killed elephant, buffalo and lion along with a ton of other stuff using a my 375H&H with a 300gr at 2560fps(78gr W760)and I feel no need to speed it up or slow it down.

If more velocity was an advantage the 375 Weatherby would not have died its quiet death.

While it may have the appearances of a 375 Ruger Vs 375 H&H, I see this as more than just that. Really, it's a moot point, both shoot 375 caliber bullets, really does not matter. What does matter is which cartridge can be utilized in the shortest, handiest, lightest rifle for the field. Sure, one can cut down a 375 H&H and load some hot loads that might equal 375 Ruger, but tit for tat, so does one, does the other, and in the long run the Ruger case is going to be more efficient I think and be able to get that efficiency with less gun.

Can we do with less velocity? Of course, in many cases depending on the situation and bullet in use, velocity is not always your friend. I don't do 375 anything, not even our own 375 B&M, I chose 9.3 B&M for my medium. But, I have no doubt that I would rather have an 18 inch gun in 375 and get 2400 + or minus with a 300 gr bullet, than to have a 10 lb 46 inch long beast of a thing to have to tote around so I can get 2550. Of course that is just me.
What will most likely be able to do that for me in the smallest package possible? Actually a 375 B&M will do that in a pinch and better, but of the two in this thread I am quite sure the 375 Ruger will do this at lower pressure, and smaller gun. Does not make it better than the 375 HH, just a different category of cartridge. It's a brave new world, we are going to see some of the classic cartridges of our time be surpassed by newer designs, sorry, but it is the way things are supposed to be. Cartridge and bullet tech is only just now in the last 10-15 yrs catching up with a 100 yrs of stagnation.

As for the "What if I loose my Ammo on the Way to Africa", lame excuse. Don't have to be Africa that you might loose your ammo, United Air lost my 416 B&M ammo in Chicago recently on a trip to the Arctic for muskox. Of course one cannot find 416 B&M ammo on the shelves in Cambridge Bay. But I am not sure one can find much of anything there regardless. I waited 3 of the 5 hunting days for United to find the bag, which they never did. So I flipped a coin, go the hell back home, or shoot with a buddies ugly, muzzle braked, long, Browning push feed 338 Winchester. So I shot 2 with the 338 as I had decided I was not coming back to that place ever, and might as well shoot two and go home. At least I had loaded the ammo for the 338 Winchester as well, a 225 gr Barnes TSX at 2800 and change, did a fine job on two muskox. But loss of the ammo was my fault, I knew better than to trust the incompetent bunch with the airlines. I have never been on a trip anywhere that I did not split ammo between at least two bags, EXCEPT this one. It was so little ammo, 30 rds, and I was pushed for time, I did not bother to split as I should have, and always have. My fault. So if a fellow is headed to Africa with his trusty 375 HH, loaded and tested his Swift As, or Barnes TSX, and Barnes Banded Solids, and is stupid, Like I was, and did not split his ammo. SAA loses the bag, our boy is forced to find some sort of ammo, unknown quality, maybe crappy bullets, or maybe some of the PH's left over client reloads from 10 yrs ago? How much better off are you really? Probably won't shoot to POI, crappy bullets not suited for the job at hand, or reloads some unknown client left the PH of unknown quality, might not even feed in your rifle, might not even shoot, and you want to hunt buffalo with this? Not me! I want my ammo and bullets I have tested. I hate to pollute my WInchesters with factory ammo anyway, and most of the time you are not going to find proper modern loads in the bush! Always, Always, Always, Split your ammo regardless! A lesson for me, Re-Learned!



One can find all sorts of excuses and make up a 1000 different scenarios to justify ones position on a matter, some good, some lame, some lousy. Even to the point, of Missing the Point!

The test is not one vs the other, it's more about what one cartridge is able to accomplish in a different manner. While one may choose a bow and arrow to work with, another may choose something different.

While I don't have direct interest in either cartridge, never owned either, and I never will own either cartridge, it does have direct bearing on something I am very interested in, and that is efficiency in the smallest package you can get by with. While I do not consider 375 anything but a medium, I believe that efficiency is going to start to show. The larger the bore size, the more efficient these type cartridges become, getting to 458 caliber that efficiency starts to show even more so than lesser calibers. Which only means this, you can burn the same, or more powder is lesser barrel length, therefore getting away with shorter, lighter, faster, and handier rifles. Whatever is done here, is even more so in the AR and B&M cartridges. So, you see, that is my interest!

Michael

Well Michael, we will very soon see just what the Ruger will do with a 18" barrel. I'm choppin mine tonight and will send a 300 grainer over the chrony tomorrow.
Don't really care about the velocity loss, but those shorter guns are such a pleasure to carry and handle, that mines gunna get a bob job!
Results forthcoming. . . . . .

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Well Michael, we will very soon see just what the Ruger will do with a 18" barrel. I'm choppin mine tonight and will send a 300 grainer over the chrony tomorrow.
Don't really care about the velocity loss, but those shorter guns are such a pleasure to carry and handle, that mines gunna get a bob job!
Results forthcoming. . . . . .

DWright

I see I have corrupted you beyond all limits! I know you have before and after. If I guess right I would say you might loose as much as 80-100 fps in that caliber total. If 20 was giving 2600 or so, you are correct, what you lose is of no consequence compared to the overall benefits thereof!

DO IT MY MAN!!!!!! Chop Chop!
HEH

Michael

Ok, it's done!
I took a frickin hack saw and a deburring tool to it. Will get it cut and crowned proper on Johns lathe next week; but for now it will at least give me velocities.
It's very surprising how much different the gun handles with just a couple inches wacked off. With that big ugly Ruger front sight gone, it really cleans it up as well, and is about 1/4 lb. lighter..

Ya, damn you Michael, can never feel the same about barrels over 18" again!
My 24" .300 WM feels like a vaulting pole!

OK, we're off in the morning. . . . will report back tomorrow evening the results.

Hey. . . . if you all hurry, you can get a pole goin' regards what the velocity will be.
Now the loads I will try are pretty slow already. 300 gr. Hornady RNs at 2,325 with a light charge of 76 gr. IMR 4350.

Later. . . . .

DWright

Yes, you are rightfully corrupted now. Once you handle the rifles with 18-20 inches you will never go back the other way. Might as well sell, give away, or retire all your other rifles now. I had to retire all my 458 Wins, 458 Lotts, 416 Rems, 358 STAs, 358 Ultras, 9.3 Ultras, 338s, and anything with a barrel longer than 20. Beautiful Winchester M70s, all locked away in the safes, except when I use one to test with. None of which will ever see field use again.

As for the poll on velocity, hard to say for sure, but I will say that any animal you use this new 18 inch gun on will now know the difference and won't care.

M