Who's game? All it takes is your 375 HH cz, your pet load of 300gr at 2500s, a HACKSAW, and a willingness to compare, head to head, down to 16", right along with my 375 ruger, which will have a 300gr at 2660fps load .. just the same as the hornady book says ..

Since I have had no takers in bringing their 375, I have bought barrels and will conduct the tests with the aid of some friends.

Here's the premise and we'll see results.

I am trying to compare the standard 375 hh to the standard 375 ruger? an average of all federal and remington 375hh 300gr loads is almost exactly 2500 (2490)
adding the 2 hornady factory 375HH loads, takes us to a "global" average of 2496.77


Some of the detractors statements about the 375 ruger
1: it can't make book velocity with factory ammo
lots of folks reporting book or right at it
2: it can't be reloaded to book
lots of published works beg to differ
3: the 375 ruger isn't available in africa
perhaps - neither was the 375hh in 1925, but this is a learning exercise
4: there's no way it can make book at 20" barrel
we'll see
5: its no faster than the 375 HH when comparing a 24" hh to a 20" ruger
yet HH fans claim you don't need the speed
6: ruger factory balistics can't be matched by the reloader as they don't have access to "pixie dust" powder that hornady uses
this is a mismonomer, the heavy mag loads did use custom powders that you couldn't get back in the case.. i tore a bunch of it down to see. The SP loads are not the same powders
7: there's no animal out there that can be killed by the whizbang ruger that can't be killed by the OLD STANDARD 375 HH AT 2500FPS
this is a threshold/condition of testing then,...accepted

I am offering and will address all of the above, at a range of barrel lengths, except using number 7 as a baseline for ammo. You see, part of the complaints of the ruger is that you don't "need" the "extra" velocity. The hornady super performance loads aren't available in africa like the old standard by ammo is, and therefore the one freak load has to be excluded as it meets the same complaint, 3, above.. if the ruger aint there, the super performance aint ever. Its a goose/gander thing.

i decided to compare this to a joust as a joust compares seemingly equal parties in the same experience.

Now if you said the H&H could match the 2660 start speed, then I still wouldn't do it. With a 160fps head start then I will say the Ruger wins. Go ahead and prove me wrong. Should be a fun race.

Woody,
part of the complaint is that the ruger's 160 fps headstart doesn't "mean anything" and that you can, with bodern powders, load the HH up that high... however, that obviates the 375's prowse as being THE 375, as its 100 years old ... and that a 375hh MEANS 300gr at 2500 .. anything else makes it just as new a ruger...

might take a second bet of IF we allow the 375 HH to BE LOADED TO HIGHER PRESSURE THAN THE RUGER and to 2660 (has to be higher, the hh case is smaller) what happens next?

Jeffe, did your mead supply go down a bottle?

Keith

Some of the best alcohol I ever had was El Jeffe's mead.

I have a better idea. You take your Ruger, I will take my Holland, and we will grab the chrono, throw our ammo in the trash and fly to Africa, then chronograph it with locally sourced ammunition. Loser buys airfare.

aint had a drop, kieth, kind of resent that... this has been kicking around in my head for some time, and i am willing to my money where my mouth is. I'll bet no 375HH owner is willing to do the sme.

Ryan,
this is BIG BORES, not AFRICAN HUNTING ..
You have presented a strawman post, that if we are in the less than 1% of the less than 1% of the less than 9% of all shooters (9% own a bigbore , 1% that goes to africa, and 1% that losses their ammo) which is 0.0009% (math is correct- 9 in a million), and that INCLUDES 45/70 owners AND rubes without having 5-10 rounds stashed elsewhere, however, the other 999,991 people would have ammo on hand.

In other words, you aren't willing to bet your holland (really, you have a holland rifle, or you have a 375HH chambered gun?) against a ruger, spec to spec?

Number one, I have no intention of entering the joust, but I will enter the discussion.

What pressure does the 375 Ruger operate(SAMMI spec)?

What pressure is SAAMI for 375 H&H?

Rumours have it that the handloader can not achieve published velocities of 375 Ruger?

Now I have to be honest, I am not a Ruger fan. I admit that I am a dinosaur. We all know what happened to the dinosaurs. I hate change. I am a pre 64 Moedel 70 Winchester fan, Period!

Bill Ruger was an innovator. Bill Ruger used so many different metals, alloys, and innovative manufacturing practices, including widespread investment casting. I admire Bill Ruger for that. I met and talked with Bill Ruger. I am being totally honest here: When Bill Ruger died, I upgraded my NRA membership to Benefactor to keep the number of Benefactor members what it was.

Please answer my questions from above.

quote:

Rumours have it that the handloader can not achieve published velocities of 375 Ruger?

Not my experience. Even in my 20" barreled Alaskan rifle I get the same or more vel as advertised by Ruger. 2650 - 2700 fps with a 300 grs bullet and 2900 fps with a 270 grs bullet.. Good accuracy too..

I don't have a horse in this race, but all my bets go to Jeffe and the 375 Ruger, hands down, no doubt about it, 100%!

Michael

Can anyone explain what is the point of this? The two ctg are virtual identical. Hornady factory loads according to their website:

375H&H 300gr Superformance - 2354 fps
375Ruger 300Gr Same Super - 2344 fps

Total waste of time, unnecessary BS, Ruger should focus the same attention on QC and building more and better guns. Like a true 222/223 length action and bread&butter price magnum action. Instead we get gimmicks.

I remember when Ruger was a younger company trying to beat the competition with better guns. Those other companies just looking for gimicks and pinching pennies on manufacturing. Now I see TC take up the innovation challenge and guarantee accuracy while Ruger has become the old dinosaur company - as in gimmick over real design options and functional features.

Saami for the ruger is 63,500 PSI
Saami for the hh is 55k CUP .. add 7500 to that, AT THIS LEVEL to convert to PSI -- 62,500PSI
net difference? flyspecks

ruger is great case capacity AND a more effective case design... one merely needs to read PO Ackley to understand that a shorper shoulder, strighter case results in more vel... the ruger ACTUALY compares to the 375 weatherby (not 378)

FB, i read your post on this, out of sheer curiosity ..
(rant on)
RUGER DOES NOT LIST A 2344 LOAD -- YOU CAN'T READ THE DATA PROVIDED -- THAT IS THE 100 YARD NUMBER, NOT MUZZLE ... ONE READS ENGLISH LEFT TO RIGHT.

trying to compare "super performance" ammo is NOT comparing a 375 hh to a 375 ruger .. 300gr at 2500 is spec for the HH .. if you try to get slippery on your loads, then you are actually saying "yeah, but if you hot rod the 375 hh it compares" is BULLOCKS .. its rubbish, as you are comparing the hottest 375 hh load to the standard 375 ruger load .. its NOT apples to apples, its apples to blue... hot rodding the 375 hh to more than 2500 fps is NOT nostalgic nor leaning on the 100 years of tradition.

the ONE factory load of signifigance over the 375 ruger is, get this buddy, NOT AVAILABLE IN AFRICA ANY MORE THAN THE 375 RUGER IS .. again, negating any super wisbang duper loading of the 375hh

in short, i am not seeing anyone will to chop their 375 hh to prove its superiority ...
(rant off)

Anyone want to take this challenge, or will you just sit back and whine about the ruger?

Airgun
lots and lots of posted data exceeding the ruger book vels -- from www.realguns.com to www.ammoguide.com

This is tough for Ruger bashers to swallow, I'm an H&H guy. I don't seem to like any of the new stuff comimg out, mostly because the old stuff works just fine. I don't like/can't see the WSMs at all, not interested in the Ruger either but if it's got more capacity it'll go faster. I like the H&H, it can be made up in a small package too, for new guys or ones looking to get a smaller nice handleing factory 375 the Ruger is hard to beat. If they put the Afrian stock or a decent synth. on the Alaskan I might try one too.

MTM,
I am not saying one is "better" I am saying that all the ruger bashing is bullocks, and i am willing to prove it, if anyone with an HH is willing to try. I do, personally, prefer standard actions, and have invested alot of my own money to show that you can accomplish whatever a 3.65" case does in a 3.35 length case, if you engineer the solution.

Let's face it, my 458 AR smooth outruns the 458lott, and in a cheap action. The case is both larger and has a sharp shoulder.

I have no problem with the Ruger being on par or even slightly better than the H&H. I like the H&H if for no other reason just nostalgia. My favorite action is the same in long or standard length rounds so cartrige length means little to me. I'm used to the extra length throw and like it. Even my 338 is throated long with the mag let out. Gatehouse still pisses me off with the NEW KING and dancing bananas but I know it's in fun. If I didn't have a very nice, very accurate Safari Express in 416 Rem. the 416 Ruger would also be interesting.

quote:

I have no problem with the Ruger being on par or even slightly better than the H&H.

Better!! SAME!!

375H&H 300gr Superformance - 2354 fps
375Ruger 300Gr Same Super - 2344 fps

quote:

I like the H&H if for no other reason just nostalgia. My favorite action is the same in long or standard length rounds so cartrige length means little to me.

My opinion exactly and it works perfectly. the more choices out there to dilute the market the less discount/fair price ammo we have. Try and find factory loaded DG 40 ammo dejour. NO STANDARD. You might still find the odd box of 458Win. The 458Win is getting rare now that we have the 458Lott. I love the lott, but it is definately hurting the 458Win. I hate to see these new is better people kill the old H&H. These are Cartridge Wars. For every winner, there is a looser.

As for Ruger, they could build more action lengths, they just dont want too. You see how they hack together the compact rifle in 223. What a joke! Pencil barrel, magazine block POS.

I fail to see what this would prove. Which ever one starts out with the highest velocity will end with the highest velocity, in the shorter barrels. This proves exactly what?

Not much of a point, but the Ruger will win, hands down.
Now that said, I'm going to replace my Ruger with one of Michaels B&M cartridges. Those rifle's make the Ruger feel like a lead anchor, even as small as they are, by comparison.
Anyone want to buy a nice .375 Ruger, lot's of brass, etc. . . . . ?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Can anyone explain what is the point of this?

To see what dope is drunk or stoned enough to play reindeer games with Jeff. Or else he's still shell-shocked from his recent hoot & shoot and doesn't know what he's typing.

I might if I had a tomato stake chambered in H&H. But honestly folks, who in their right mind would butcher up an elegant Sauer like this just to play his childish games?



Jeff's got this 'Rooger is superior' shtick stuck in his craw, and as long as enough folks are still willing to covet the 98 year old H&H design, then his opinion isn't validated. Pity. And because of the way DRG has this website's settings, most AR content doesn't show up on a google search. So his opinions are not spread to the far reaches of the net in perpetuity. Pity.

And in conclusion, I don't know another AR moderator who starts/stirrs as much shit as Jeff.

Like Hotcore, everything's got to be cheap.

quote:

Let's face it, my 458 AR smooth outruns the 458lott, and in a cheap action .

JWP,
the luddittes have been screaming that ruger can't go faster, it can't be reloaded by people to faster, and that it can't do X,Y,Z ..

this is to make the point perfectly clear that I am willing to put up MY 375 ruger in an inch per inch comparison to the HH, and then get to the bottom line ... which one is faster at X length, then end.

as for tastes in rifles - great, buy whatever you like. I am not trying to solve ruger rifle hatred .. that's religion, not intellect, and is not generally subject to conversion.

read LEFT on the charts, FB -- STARTING vels, not the 100 yard ones.

As for ruger making longer actions, its painfully obvious that you aren't in manufactoring .. new molds, new bolts, new stocks.. and for NO REASON, as merely changing the cartridge fixes that ...

don't tangent off on the short actions and super short actions -- no one is discussing 223 here... or 308 ... we are talking about ANY standard length action, like, oh, say, a mauser!

The proof is in the pudding .. lets go shoot and chop those barrels down .. SOMEONE has to have to stones to say the ruger can't do what it says it can do, and are willing to compare their HH to it.

Besides, think of the potential joy of shutting me up about it? that's going to be worth the price of a barrel to you

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
...
1: To see what dope is drunk or stoned enough to play reindeer games with Jeff.

2: Or else he's still shell-shocked from his recent hoot & shoot and
3: doesn't know what he's typing.

4: just to play his childish games?

5: So his opinions are not spread to the far reaches of the net in perpetuity. Pity.

6: AND 7:And in conclusion, I don't know another AR moderator who starts/stirrs as much shit as Jeff.

7 insults in one post, dave? WOW -- and adding NOTHING to the conversation, one would think you'd at least lame up and make one contribution .. i guess having any hopes for you actually participating rather than having an insult fest would be unrealistic

hey Dave, how does the 357 sig and 7.62x25 headpsace again?

This aint ruger bashing, or HH bashing .. its laying out the actual FACTS and showing how things actually ARE, rather than preconceptions .. i guess you aren't interested in playing with, oh, reality.

All those with profound negative reactions --- wow, why does it always ALSO end up being those that routinely bash the ruger and the 375 ruger?

Oh, wait, I missed one.. dave also insults the company by idiotically misspelling their name. Great move dave .. the ONLY US based arms campany with a public stock listing that has out performed the the stock market during this hellhole of a ressesion .. and YOU spout off about how bad they are ..

you certainly self-informed .. one might call that mental masterbation.

Jeffeosso,
Will you provide a airline ticket and lodging?

we can go to my lease, ride 4wheelers, and if there's pigs, and you buy a $38 license, you can shoot hogs .. with your flamethrower 375!

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Can anyone explain what is the point of this?

To see what dope is drunk or stoned enough to play reindeer games with Jeff. Or else he's still shell-shocked from his recent hoot & shoot and doesn't know what he's typing.

I might if I had a tomato stake chambered in H&H. But honestly folks, who in their right mind would butcher up an elegant Sauer like this just to play his childish games?



Jeff's got this 'Rooger is superior' shtick stuck in his craw, and as long as enough folks are still willing to covet the 98 year old H&H design, then his opinion isn't validated. Pity. And because of the way DRG has this website's settings, most AR content doesn't show up on a google search. So his opinions are not spread to the far reaches of the net in perpetuity. Pity.

And in conclusion, I don't know another AR moderator who starts/stirrs as much shit as Jeff.

Like Hotcore, everything's got to be cheap.

quote:

Let's face it, my 458 AR smooth outruns the 458lott, and in a cheap action .

Shame on you. You add nothing just plain insulting. Besides - that Sauer is plain ugly in my eyes.. Too long and heavy for a tiny little 375.. And push feed.... Not for me, I`ll take a 375 Ruger any day before that rifle..

Seems like a fun test and the results common sense - but then again, occasionally common sense is proved (or proven - your choice) wrong.


If nothing else, the results will generate endless debate because - that is the nature of furums such as this.

In the end, noone will change their religion or beloved caliber because of a test. Makes enjoyable reading, though.

Jeffe - if I had stocked CZ action, I would send it to you just to see how this turns out. Unfortunately, I'll ahve to watch from the sidelines ...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


hey Dave, how does the 357 sig and 7.62x25 headpsace again?

Pardon me if I have not been current to your goings-on, but how's that short-barreled, open-sighted, 22 rimfire revolver you're building to shoot hogs @ 75 yards coming along?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:


Shame on you. You add nothing just plain insulting.

And what did you add? Just a little ass kissing toward Jeff?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
And what did you add?

Just that your Sauer is ugly, push feed and unneccesary large and heavy for a little 375HH..

And that I have first hand experience with both cartridges and have found the Ruger to be superior. And that I have had no problems whatsoever exceeding factory ballistics in my 20" barreled Alaskan rifle in 375 Ruger...

I don't need to know bad enough to butcher two perfectly good barrels!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
Pardon me if I have not been current to your goings-on, but how's that short-barreled, open-sighted, 22 rimfire revolver you're building to shoot hogs @ 75 yards coming along?

Dang, is that a dig at handgun hunters or hog hunters? What if you do both?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Dang, is that a dig at handgun hunters or hog hunters? What if you do both?

Just asking, since I've not read any results of his pea shooter project. I suppose it must be done by now if he's itching to molest perfectly good tomato stakes with this useless jousting pursuit.

Buffalo,

I for one would take the Sauer over a Ruger any day. And I do own Ruger firearms and I am even an on and off Ruger shareholder. I do think most of the guns they produce are average at best and they have room for improvement.

Jeffe,

I do not understand why anyone would question the short -fat versus the long more tapered argument for efficency and inherent accuracy. I think it has been proved in other cartridges and by the benchrest guys. I do however have a 375 H&H and have no desire to own a 375 Ruger. Mostly because I have had it for years PF Sako.

It may be an intersting test for someone with time on their hands but would not prove anything to anyone as they could argue difference in individual barrels (even of the same make) powder used, chamber differences etc.

Must be a slow day in the big bore world.

BigB

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:
Buffalo,

I for one would take the Sauer over a Ruger any day. And I do own Ruger firearms and I am even an on and off Ruger shareholder. I do think most of the guns they produce are average at best and they have room for improvement.

BigB

I agree. Rugers have room for improvement, sure. But THEY CAN BE IMPROVED!!! As a rifle for dangerous game the Sauer is useless for me.. No "improvements" can make the Sauer a CRF and give it a claw extractor...

BigB
using the guns with a built load taking them to 2500 for the HH and 2660 for the ruger, and forcing a 10 shot average, actually eliminates the fast vs slow barrel debate - the guy with the HH gets to build the load he wants, and make book with. I'll do the same with the ruger, and we'll ramdomly pull ammo to set the 10 shot group baseline -- this is intended to clean up barrel to barrel variation. that allows everything to be normalized -- i am not specificing a load nor requiring the load be published, just the chrono'ed results.

secondly, there's naysaying luddittes that demand the ruger can't make book, even though they same guys will point out the one hornady load that goes just as fast in the HH, ignoring that the ruger is a larger capacity. I am trying to get a baseline and show what happens to the loads as you reduce barrel length. Since ruger offers a 20" carbin version, I thought going all the way down to 16" would make meaningful data, for everyone to KNOW what happens, rather than guess.

I too am a sometimes ruger stock owner .. and they've way out performed market over the last 18 months.

Don't be put off by dave... he likes to kick sand at me and when responded to, in kind.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

hey Dave, how does the 357 sig and 7.62x25 headpsace again?

not going to answer the question, are you dave?

The 22 project is still delayed, due to the gunsmith's health and not being able to finish it. Reminds me to call him. Its a 4" iron sighted shilen match grade barrel.. i guess some might call it a shortbarreled something, but not me. Hogs is a term usually reserved for full grown animals. I stated it was for piglets, shoats, and pot animals like rabbits and a snake gun. In short, *MY* idea od the perfect trailgun.. able to shoot 3-5 MOA out to 75 yards, in my hands. I can shoot that well with that size gun, most folks can. ... As I recall, we had to also inform you of what a trailgun is, and I won't waste anymore time in bigbores talking about a 22 pistol.

I am receivin basically what I expected .. no one willing to step up and compare results to shut me up.

I do love both rounds, and think that they are fantastic mediums. I am will to put MY money where my mouth is.

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:

Must be a slow day in the big bore world.

BigB

Well Hell, let's kick it up a notch or two, if it's getting slow! How about this, I already agree with Jeffe on this point, and there is no doubt in my mind. Money is on Jeffe. Now I would gladly donate a 375 HH to start chopping the barrel off for comparison. Because if I had one, I could find no use for it whatsoever, useless caliber, neither "fish nor fowl" to big to be little, to little to be big. Reckon they are ok for rats and such, make a decent impala gun with the right bullet I suppose. Can't figure for the life of me what 375 is doing on big bores, should be in "small bores, Mediums at best! Does not matter if it's Ruger or any make, anything chambered in 375 anything is way too big a gun for the cartridge! Hell, 375 should be based on a 6.5 lb 18-20 inch barrel gun at the very most! Make for easy carry and handling I reckon, and since it's relatively small bore it would do well on a smaller platform, or at least better than a 45 + inch 10 lb hog! Why even a M70 in 375 HH is a hog!

I tell you what though, I have a bunch of left over 375 HH brass, used to make everything I needed out of it, 358 STA, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, so 375 HH brass is a good thing, make useful cartridges out of it! Suppose the 375 Ruger brass is a good thing too, there's no telling what sort of useful cartridges can be made from that stuff! So you see, even I can find something good about 375 RUger and HH, good brass to make other real caliber cartridges!


How's that work for ya?


Michael

Would be interesting to test the design aspects at the same capacity, barrel length and propellant charge. Let's say you loaded the 375 HH bullet out more and the 375 Ruger in more to even the playing field with the same usable case capacity.

Parameters of what makes one better are objective and subjective.

If you get bored with the 375 HH you can rebore it to 404-375

I was going to ask you Jeffe -- do you actually own one of those pipsqueak .375s??

I know its hard to believe that I own something that small .. yep...
and rebarreling one with a CZ take off barrel to cutdown, chamber, and chop up!

heh, wait a couple weeks till you see my latest pipsqueek project ..

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I was going to ask you Jeffe -- do you actually own one of those pipsqueak .375s??

If he does, what in the world would Jeffe do with something like that? Let his kids, wife shoot it or something? Be good to start my 7 yr old daughter out on something like that?

Michael