Can someone please change the title of the thread from "JOUST" to "WAR" !!!


Hell, jeffeoso is doing the test, let him do it the way he wants to.


Is it really that effing important to start WW III over ?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Ive not read all six pages. I thought he was using factory Hornady superformance ammo?

Why dont you correct me sooner?

Am I hallucinating or has this experiment changed? I just went back an re-read the first entry and dont see any mention of factory ammo for this experiment.

factory ammo - period, full stop

traditional 375 hh vs traditional 375 ruger ..

what powder in the case is immaterial

Sorry fourbore..
Looks like I am the one who is hallucinating!

that's a mean thing, chuck.. i think more of the HH than to compare it to snooki

Lowwall
I am using factory ammo .. just like 90+% of all real world shooters actually do .. the hornady factory ammo for each .. I am not shooting reloads or handloads, or special-just-for-testing loads...

efbie keeps insisting that i ALSO test the one NON TRADITIONAL freak load for the 375Hh .. that is NOT loaded to 300gr at 2500 ... AND insists that *I* pay for his preference ...

Thanks, but unless he's working for a tax agency, he doesn't get to tell me where to spend MY money ...

though, Mike, to be fair, don't quote ballistics at him.. he has trouble with basic math, it appears

The two 6mms is not about efficiency. Simply to show another example of the shorter straighter case having the effect of speeding up the burn rate of powder. In fact if we did not have slow powders then that feature would not be good.

But in the case of the Ruger and H&H comparison the 4350 burn rate is a bit slow for the H&H and especially with long 300 grain spitzers and the Varget/4064 burn rate is a bit fast. But the Ruger with a bit bigger case plus the shape that speeds up the burn rate a bit will do much better with the 4350 burn rate and in addition has a bigger case capacity.

I reckon in equal length barrels and 300 grain spitzers, especially Barnes Xs, the 375 Ruger would probably put 150 f/s on the H&H.

quote:

Is it really that effing important to start WW III over ?

I am fine with a cease fire. I'll go outside and do some yard work

That 1 is greater than 2 is embarrassing. duh! I edited by post, but Jeff captured if for all

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
that's a mean thing, chuck.. i think more of the HH than to compare it to snooki

lol jeffeosso!



Chuck

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Enough of the shit slinging , I dont care about what powder does best for which calibre - I want to see the results of Jeffe's test firing , using off-the-shelf regular ammunition.

Are we there yet ?

Are we there yet ?

quote:

Originally posted by muzza:
I want to see the results of Jeffe's test firing , using off-the-shelf regular ammunition.
Are we there yet ?

at 6:30 am, it was 79 deg today .. high of 93 projected ...

shesh, its forever hot these days

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:

+1

!!
hot
!!
there's no point in trying to get rational results when it goes from 60 to 90 in 2 hours ...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
!!
hot
!!
there's no point in trying to get rational results when it goes from 60 to 90 in 2 hours ...

Weather for Porter, TX
- Add to iGoogle
83°F | °C
Current: Partly Cloudy
Wind: SE at 5 mph
Humidity: 42%
Sun
Sunny
83°F | 63°F
Mon
Isolated Thunderstorms
87°F | 65°F
Tue
Scattered Thunderstorms
86°F | 59°F
Wed
Sunny
85°F | 59°F

What's next, the dog ate my chronograph????



.



,



,


Smile Jeffe, I'm just giving you a hard time.

I'm looking forward to the results. It should be interesting. No double the Ruger will win, but I'll stick with the H&H regardless.

quote:

Who's game? All it takes is your 375 HH cz, your pet load of 300gr at 2500s, a HACKSAW, and a willingness to compare, head to head, down to 16", right along with my 375 ruger, which will have a 300gr at 2660fps load .. just the same as the hornady book says ..

Since I have had no takers in bringing their 375, I have bought barrels and will conduct the tests with the aid of some friends. Here's the premise and we'll see results.

I am trying to compare the standard 375 hh to the standard 375 ruger? an average of all federal and remington 375hh 300gr loads is almost exactly 2500 (2490)
adding the 2 hornady factory 375HH loads, takes us to a "global" average of 2496.77

Jeffe,

What is the point of all of this?
I do not understand cutting a barrel down to 16 inches.
Barrels on rifles like this need not go shorter than 22 inches imho.
I think the CZ Safari checks in at 25" barrel length.
The .375 H&H CZ Safari rifle is perhaps the most common rifle in use in Africa.
The .375 Ruger may be offered in shorter barrel lengths.
This is the way most hunters will buy them and use them as is.

What is the real argument here between the two cartridges?
Even if there is a velocity difference - inch by inch - it would be marginal.
And as such, how consequential is that for the DG hunter?

If it is about design only, the Ruger is smarter in case design and a sleeker rifle can be
had than the overly heavy CZ550. Some of my friends have trimmed their CZ's down - both the
stock and the barrel. That is also the apeal of the 375 Ruger over the 375 H&H Ruger Safari
that is as heavy as a tank. An 8.3 lb rifle in the .375 H&H is just fine, as the recoil at
43 Ft-lbs is way less than the 458 Lott at 65 Ft-lbs, where a heavier rifle is more appropriate.

A pic of your 375 Ruger would be appreciated - have not seen a picture as yet as they are as
scarce as hen's teeth here in Africa.

Much appreciated.

Warrior

Jason

Chris -- let me start by saying your post should begin with "in YOUR opinion ... "

I don't care for bolt guns over 23" (thanks Mike D) and some folks like them much shorter .. fact is, barrel length could be entirely a personal choice, and loading for the different lengths can produce different results.


Lotts where also, at one time, rare as hen's teeth ... and so was the 375HH at onset .. ludites need not apply to discuss calibers .. they merely need state "i prefer the HH" and I will nod, tell them its a fine caliber, and move on.


a 8# DONE 375, loaded and scoped, is pretty well perfect in my opinion ... anything over 9 is just wasting effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:


Jeffe,

What is the point of all of this?
I do not understand cutting a barrel down to 16 inches.
Barrels on rifles like this need not go shorter than 22 inches imho.
I think the CZ Safari checks in at 25" barrel length.
The .375 H&H CZ Safari rifle is perhaps the most common rifle in use in Africa.

Warrior

Warrior

Believe it or not, this is an important test that needs to be conducted. I already know what the outcome is going to be, and this is going to show the efficiency of the Ruger case. I am not a Ruger 375 fan, nor am I a 375HH fan. In fact, I am not a 375 anything fan, and don't even own one of my 375 B&M rifles. What I can tell you is that with the 2.25 inch B&M case, we can equal 375 HH, normal everyday 375 HH, not the hopped up loads, but we can do it on a 6.5 lb WInchester M70 WSM action and 18 inch barrel!

Now, obviously you have never had your hands on an 18 Inch B&M rifle. Probably a good thing too, as you would soon trash everything you own and would never carry anything but a B&M rifle the rest of your days. And every single time you picked up a long gun, with 24 inch barrel and weighs 10 lbs, you would soon put it down and wonder, "Why in the World did I carry such a thing for so Long?" But never again!

That's the point of the test, one no longer needs such a long and heavy rifle to get the performance--Needed in the field. Jeffe will prove this to you.

Times are changing, and it's time for some real innovation.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks for your explanation.

The balance and fit of a rifle is also important for me, and that differs from a man that is 5'6" tall to 6'6" tall. In a natural hold, they way you shoulder, the rifle should balance - ie it should not be too heavy at the muzzle nor tip the scales at the recoil pad. Also a 6'6" man will look silly with a short 18" barreled rifle. This is just my opinion, but we all have different tastes.

However, I am sure the shorter and fatter case will be more efficient, just like we have seen with all the WSM cartridges. Overly fat like the WSSM is plain ugly. I only own custom rifles built on Mauser actions and do not care for short-action cartridges at this point in time. It may be different if I had to start all over again or dabble with it as a new venture, but I do not see a compelling need for that right now. That does not mean that I cannot appreciate it virtues. Also, barrels need to be taylored around the type of cartridge - for example, a long-cased 300 H&H would be silly with a 18" barrel as one would not get all the benefit of the long powder column of slow burning powder.

Your BM's do look cute, and I sure wish I were in a position to handle them to get the feel. You have certainly demonstrated the effectiveness of them. But the bullet revolution interests me more, as to how better designed bullets can improve our various cartridges.

My writing takes nothing away from the 375 Ruger, in fact I mentioned that it is a smarter design. However, I will at this point in time not go shorter than 22 inches for what I call that balanced feel for my height of 5'10". I hunt mostly in the bush by walking and stalking .... at a slow pace so as not to make a noise on the fallen leaves (winter time). I have handled Stutzen rifles with 18" barrels, and I do not like them.

Here is my 7x57 mm with a 22-inch barrel, and it handles like a dream - 8 lbs without the scope. I also do not like overly thin barrels.



Warrior

quote:

I already know what the outcome is going to be, and this is going to show the efficiency of the Ruger case.

First, I have to assume you mean to say the Ruger case is more efficient than the H&H case and that fact will be shown by this experiment.

If that is your point, I respectfully disagree. I dont disagree the Ruger maybe more efficient. Where I disagree is that this experiment will prove that point. If the purpose was to compare the efficiency of the Ruger case v. the H&H case, then we would use the same powder and pressure levels, or as close as possible. Or the best load available for each. Since there is only one factory load available for the Ruger the choice almost has to be Hornady Superformance for both.

Neither are hopped up loads, what they are- is the same. Or as close to same (pressure and powder) load as we could shoot in a side by side comparison. I know they are not identical, but reasonably close.

As it is planed now, you have two pretty much separate activity One a test of the H&H and other is test of Ruger 375. Comparison between the two results will be pretty meaningless. "IMHO"

How can anyone argue that loading H&H to 100 year old levels and testing against Ruger with absolute latest marvel of chemistry loads is a valid comparison of case design? End of the day, I am sure AR and shooting community know better than that.

Is the 444 Marlin more efficient than the 45/70 when one is tested with smokeless and other with black powder? What would that prove?

Warrior

Next year I will be on the continent. I will make a plan known to you guys, maybe several of us can make a plan to get together at some point, somewhere. Put a B&M in your hands, then you know what I am talking about! As for a Stutzen, I reckon I am ignorant, don't even know what that is, if it don't say Winchester on it somewhere, then I am ignorant except what I see. HEH.


Now, fourbore, you may disagree, that's cool with me. Under almost all scenarios I have experienced with these type cases, like the B&Ms, and probably the ruger case also, there is no way they use the same powder as the longer HH cases or cartridges based on that case. Pressures, well agree to a point. Staying within the pressures designed for the cartridge-which honestly I don't know what either of these are rated at.

I think that the test will show that most likely you can equal a HH case, I could care less about the caliber, with the ruger case, with a lot less barrel. Simply that is a most important statement, and that's what I am all about, less gun, with equal or more velocity!

There is no doubt that todays powders and primers are so far ahead of what was available even not so many years ago, much less a 100 as you state. But one can hop up anything now if those powders are available to any cartridge. I am sure Jeffe will try several different loads, and available factory if possible at each cutting.

Like I said at the beginning of the thread some months ago, I don't have a horse in this race, and I would not give you 2 cents for either cartridge for my personal use. Honestly, 375 is way the hell over rated to begin with, and not only that, it's just common, and there is not one thing about me that is, just common! I can tell you this, since this thread was started we finally got 375 B&M dies in, our boy John is developing this and wanted a 375 B&M and is out trying to shoot an elk or something with it now as I write this, but he has 300 gr pills jumping out at 2550 fps and 270s at over 2750 fps in a 20 inch tube. Now how that compares to a 375 Ruger or HH I really don't know, I have not looked much at that since it's 375, but that seems pretty good to me, and like all the B&M cases is burning damned efficient. I suspect the Ruger to do the same, but I doubt the two work at the same pressure levels?

I say make that ruger case into a .500 caliber like Capoward is doing! Then you boys might have something?



Michael

Yea! 50 calibers, thats why I joined the forum.

Go ahead Ruger - Make my day.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Yea! 50 calibers, thats why I joined the forum.

Go ahead Ruger - Make my day.

Now you talking! How about it Jeffe, get those barrels wacked off and the test completed just make either 500 ARs out of them or 50 B&M somethings!

Excellent, just damned excellent, good life starts at .500! Take those minor caliber 375s and shoot some rats and such I suppose?

HEH

M

quote:

Next year I will be on the continent. I will make a plan known to you guys, maybe several of us can make a plan to get together at some point, somewhere. Put a B&M in your hands, then you know what I am talking about! As for a Stutzen, I reckon I am ignorant, don't even know what that is, if it don't say Winchester on it somewhere, then I am ignorant except what I see. HEH.

Michael,

You just let me know, and I will fly in to meet you when you put feet on soil. You have certainly given the .500 caliber a new veil and prominance. It might just tickle my fancy, but with a 21" barrel, and it could perhaps be nominated for the best/interesting big-bore of recent times ... and in time, unseat the popular 458 Lott if marketed properly.

Warrior

First October I have been at home in 10 yrs now! But it is a good thing, had I gone across the pond it would have been just another hassle to go, now missing a year I will actually look forward to it next year now! But I do admit I am missing putting bullet to buffalo flesh this fall! Damn! Well, will have lot's of new bullets try try out next year!

I will let you know what the scoop is when I have a plan. Gotta get enough buffalo on quota to be worth the trouble. Looking at possible two engagements, one in Mozambique and the other in Zim to get enough buffalo to be worth me getting on the airplane and hassle with your side then getting back to hassle with my side, not sure which is dumber, yours or ours??? Ours I think, as they should know better!

Now, let me not take this off thread please.

Back to the Joust--375 Ruger vs 375 HH, neither in a caliber worth a damn for nothing but "rabbits" and such!

HEH HEH--Come boys, that ought to stir some crap?

Michael

LOL, heh Michael. . .

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
LOL, heh Michael. . .

Big D, I knew you would catch that, and draw you out! HEH!

Hey, that new line you have as a sig, are you sure you is not from SC??? LOL Me thinks you is!

M

Now Michael you know it is all about bullet design and construction and not caliber.

I am thinking about a new wildcat the 375 BM. Named after me with my initials backwards. Any ideas for a parent case?

Well, there is no doubt about it, every cartridge/caliber can be enhanced beyond extreme with the right bullet combo, I cannot deny! Probably even a 375 caliber.

Oh man, just take a 375 B&M, I will have them reverse the letters to M&B and you will be set to jet! However, I must recommend something larger than 375, or I would not be me!

Isn't a 9.3 bigger? It starts with a "9", and "9" is more than "3"???? Works for me, that's my story and I am sticking to it!

LOL

M

I may use a 505 Gibbs as the parent case. Call it the 505-375MB Then it would be like a 50 caliber but that 9.3 would still sound bigger.

Michael take a deep breath. After reading 375 and 505 Gibbs in the same post the room must be spinning.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I may use a 505 Gibbs as the parent case. Call it the 505-375MB Then it would be like a 50 caliber but that 9.3 would still sound bigger.

Michael take a deep breath. After reading 375 and 505 Gibbs in the same post the room must be spinning.

NOOOOOOOOO! That's more than I can bear! The doctor has not given me a new prescription for my meds, and I have been off of them now for a week, and you want to say this to me? I feel like my head is spinning like the girl in the exorcist! Holy Cow!

LOL LOL

M

Jeeeez no Michael; never been east of Nevada.
That was a saying my 2 Ex wife's granny used a lot.

Heh, been getting lot's of flack in the field when I pull out my 17" .375 Ruger from a couple of huntin' buddies. . . . . . . right up until I shoot it. Then they are a bit quite'r!

quote:

Heh, been getting lot's of flack in the field when I pull out my 17" .375 Ruger from a couple of huntin' buddies. . . . . . . right up until I shoot it. Then they are a bit quite'r!

Dennis I’ve seen you shot that rifle at 325yds, I’m sure they get quiet real quick!

quote:

My writing takes nothing away from the 375 Ruger, in fact I mentioned that it is a smarter design. However, I will at this point in time not go shorter than 22 inches for what I call that balanced feel for my height of 5'10". I hunt mostly in the bush by walking and stalking .... at a slow pace so as not to make a noise on the fallen leaves (winter time). I have handled Stutzen rifles with 18" barrels, and I do not like them.

… my 7x57 mm with a 22-inch barrel, and it handles like a dream - 8 lbs without the scope. I also do not like overly thin barrels.

Warrior,
I also am 5’10” in height and I’ve been locked into 21” to 23” barrel length for my M98 Mausers for years. However I’ve now handled and shot Michel’s 50 B&M and 50 B&M Super Short with 18” and 16.25” barrels respectively; they both visually and physically balance very nicely and handle like a dream…however the 13.25” pull length with the Ultimate synthetic stock is short for me as I need a 14.25” to 14.5” pull length to accommodate my 35” sleeve length.

My 50 MDM, using 375 Ruger Basic Brass at 2.65” case length, is currently at the gunsmith and is being constructed using a standard length 1951 FN Commercial M98 action with a 19” finished barrel length using a Pac-Nor Super-Match Grade Chrome Moly #6 Sporter contoured blank. It will balance very nicely visually at 19” with my 14.5” pull length B&C Medalist synthetic stock. I’m sure it will handle very closely to Michel’s 50 B&M with 13.5” pull length AI walnut stock and much better than his longer 500 MDM with is based on the full length 375 RUM case and M70 Long Winchester action using a 21” barrel length.

Nice rifle by the way.

Well, doc gave me a prescription, back on my meds now, feel much better and calm as can be!



Well, almost!

HEH

Big "D"---What would you say if someone asked if you wanted to add 7 more inches back to your barrel, now that you have spent a little time with shorty????

Capoward,

Stock balance and stock fit can indeed vary from individual to individual. I am sure if done right a short barreled rifle can provide a good fit with the right stock, and if balanced just forward of the trigger guard. Invariably thin barreled rifles with a short barrel is too light at the front and too heavy at the rear and pointabilty is less than ideal. Likewise, overly long and heavy barrels on some varmint rifles are front heavy and slow to point, and more so with those that are shorter than average. Just a note on an individiual's measurements that can play an important role as you hinted:

Length of Pull

You are quite right in your observation that length of pull (LOP) is not a function of one's length, but more so of one's arm length. A crude measurement is to determined LOP by measuring from the inside of the elbow to the curve of the trigger finger. If the second joint of one's index finger is forward of the trigger, the length of pull is too short. Measuring from my bicep to the first joint of my trigger finger is 14.2" and my correctly measured length of pull happens to be the same. This may not be the case for another person, as one's neck length also plays a role. Another critical dimension in judging the correct LOP for an individual is that there should be about one inch to an inch-and-a-quarter of space between the thumb and nose when the gun is shouldered and you have your natural position for a cheek weld and ready to fire. This is a measurement that one cannot make on your own, but is one easily made with the assistance of a friend. This is the one constant that always holds true.

Generally rifle and shotgun stocks are provided with 13.75" from the factory, as this is felt to suit the average male. This probably works for 80% of the shooting adult male population. This is where a stock maker can tailor a stock for a personal fit. A poor fitting stock is not only uncomfortable, but can hit your eye brow if too short, and if you have to lean into a stock that is too long it will increase the felt recoil as one is less able to roll with the punch.

One of the most common misfits is the height of comb. For example, if a rifle comes with iron sights the stock height is normally regulated for a firm cheek contact when aimed. When a scope is fitted it will alter that default position causing the stock weld to become less firm - i.e. now positioned lower on the cheek towards the chin bone. Furthermore, if high rings are fitted to accommodate a large belled scope, the weld can become non-existent. This then causes poor sighting and erratic grouping due to poor sight alignment.

Warrior

Good info and it never hurts to remind everyone of the importance of correct length of pull and rifle balance point.

HEH

Big "D"---What would you say if someone asked if you wanted to add 7 more inches back to your barrel, now that you have spent a little time with shorty????[/QUOTE]

No way! Heading out here in about 10 minutes to hunt bear in this thick under brush with it. Was going thru my rifles last night deciding which one to take today, and as soon as I picked up the handy little .375, I put the rest away. The shorter barrel takes nothing at all away for long shots if need be; but adds a tremendous amount of handiness to a light, powerful package.
Michael, I have encountered the same old resistance out here about these short tubes. Hard for an old dog to learn new tricks I guess.
I just glad I had an open mind about them, and at this point, would not go back to the longer barrel. The overall length is the same as my little Marlin '94 carbine in .45 Colt!

Big D

Yep, I am spoiled too on all the B&M rifles, except the 500 MDM, which is only slightly smaller than a full size 458 Lott. About a pound maybe 1.5 lbs lighter, and 3 inches shorter. Not sure how much I will work the 500 MDM in the future, but the various other B&Ms is what I will have as they are very small, short and handy, and still have the horse power to do the heavy lifting asked of them.

This is, I think, the entire point of this test in the end. To state that one can still have the horse power, but just in a smaller package, exactly like you have now. As that bore size increases, so does the efficiency factor.

M

I don't have the time nor inclination to read through all eight pages of this so have simply skipped ahead. I have a M-70 in 375 H&H with a 20 inch barrel as well as a Ruger with the same length. The difference in spread between factory ammo is about as expected with the Ruger definately ahead.
It's not rocket science here. The Ruger case has a larger capacity by six or seven grains so if we stick to the same pressures the Ruger wins in the velocity dept by a little. If we stick to the same velocity then the Ruger operates at a slightly lower pressure. Plus it's a shorter case and can be built on a standard length action.
Is there any noticible differences on game ? - of course not. But I do like the shorter bolt throw of the Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I don't have the time nor inclination to read through all eight pages of this so have simply skipped ahead. I have a M-70 in 375 H&H with a 20 inch barrel as well as a Ruger with the same length. The difference in spread between factory ammo is about as expected with the Ruger definately ahead.
It's not rocket science here. The Ruger case has a larger capacity by six or seven grains so if we stick to the same pressures the Ruger wins in the velocity dept by a little. If we stick to the same velocity then the Ruger operates at a slightly lower pressure. Plus it's a shorter case and can be built on a standard length action.
Is there any noticible differences on game ? - of course not. But I do like the shorter bolt throw of the Ruger.

Exactly what he said!

And the winner of The Joust is.......??

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
And the winner of The Joust is.......??

I PMed Jeffe and he said that he has had to put the joust on hold due to a global warming induced flash floods in his area. He said that their is an earthquake predicted to hit Porter by year's end, so he is busy reinforcing his foundation. He also mentioned a solar flare that disabled his chronograph.


Towards the end of the phone call reception was terrible. All I could make out was something about giant earthworms and Reba McEntire.