quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by BigB:

Must be a slow day in the big bore world.

BigB

Well Hell, let's kick it up a notch or two, if it's getting slow! How about this, I already agree with Jeffe on this point, and there is no doubt in my mind. Money is on Jeffe. Now I would gladly donate a 375 HH to start chopping the barrel off for comparison. Because if I had one, I could find no use for it whatsoever, useless caliber, neither "fish nor fowl" to big to be little, to little to be big. Reckon they are ok for rats and such, make a decent impala gun with the right bullet I suppose. Can't figure for the life of me what 375 is doing on big bores, should be in "small bores, Mediums at best! Does not matter if it's Ruger or any make, anything chambered in 375 anything is way too big a gun for the cartridge! Hell, 375 should be based on a 6.5 lb 18-20 inch barrel gun at the very most! Make for easy carry and handling I reckon, and since it's relatively small bore it would do well on a smaller platform, or at least better than a 45 + inch 10 lb hog! Why even a M70 in 375 HH is a hog!

I tell you what though, I have a bunch of left over 375 HH brass, used to make everything I needed out of it, 358 STA, 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, so 375 HH brass is a good thing, make useful cartridges out of it! Suppose the 375 Ruger brass is a good thing too, there's no telling what sort of useful cartridges can be made from that stuff! So you see, even I can find something good about 375 RUger and HH, good brass to make other real caliber cartridges!


How's that work for ya?


Michael

Basically I agree with you Michael. 375 is a medium bore for sure. I like it for use on moose and other "medium size stuff" - just like you use your 9,3 B&M I suppose? If I had the 9,3B&M or another 9,3 I would not have the need for a 375 caliber rifle..

MM,
my wife doesn't like recoil ... so I keep a 375 around for copperheads

Jeffe

Yeah, now I can buy into that! Damn snakes, I hate'em all, tell her to kill some for me too. I can make you up some lead snake shot for that thing! Problem is in 3 shots the lead will plug the end up on that tiny bore hole in the end of the barrel of a 375. Not so bad on the .500s, but small bore plugs up quick with lead. Good for snakes though!

LOL

Michael

Buffalo

You know I love just messing with the 375 crowd!

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Buffalo

You know I love just messing with the 375 crowd!

M

Sure Michael..

While I too think this is drivel, I have nothing better to do so...

first remember, if you loose inches you need to make up for it in girth, or you loose out in performance.

If the ruger has more case capacity than it is going to get better numbers, nuff said, you can't argue math.

I have an h&h, I got a great deal on mine, if I were faced with the decision now, two rifles same price, same everything except one uger and one h&h, I'd still take the h&h. I ain't worried that either one would have enough oomph to kill what's on the other end, if that 200fps makes a difference you need to step up to a bigger bore size. I prefer the way the holland looks, and for me if you don't have to sacrifice ability for looks then you've got a winner.

if nostalgia or aesthetics don't matter to a person, or matter less than pure function, than let them choose the other, or the next new ones that comes along. I don't see why guys get into this whole mine is better thing (of course the 300 win vs. 308 norma being an exception, the norma obviously being a better design, what's up with the shorter neck on the 300w? )

and just to take my turn who wouldn't mind cutting the barrel off a ruger?!

HA!

Red

Michael458,

A 375 is the perfect light rifle for a DG hunt albeit a medium bore. It also is my wifes buffalo rifle.

Buffalo,

I think the whole CRF thing is over done, having said that I have always used CRF on ele.

Jeffe,

I think you would have to air gauge the barrel just to make sure the naysayers would not say it had a "loose" spot.

BigB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMS5m74bMp0

Surely this must be the most stupid and mind numbing idea/post on AR for quite some time.

quote:

Surely this must be the most stupid and mind numbing idea/post on AR for quite some time. Roll Eyes

A - NUL ! Time would be better spent developing hunting skills rather than worry about the full 10fps difference in factory loadings. Someone was boored and suckered a lot of folks into responding. Opps, guess I fell for that one too.

x2 +1

A 57mm version of the 375 Ruger in a shorter action makes more sense to me. 20" barrel and Mannlicher style stock in a light stalking style gun to get 300 @ 2400+ fps.

A 350 Rem mag is close to this idea.

It would seem those with commercial interests (commercial website links on all of their posts for instance) could/should invest in a couple of cheap barrels & a M110 then "prove" to the world their point.

Hey I probably like a different beer or soft drink than you, cool. I love M70's and 375H&H. I don't have any M77's but hunt with many who do, cool.

Pete A.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:
Surely this must be the most stupid and mind numbing idea/post on AR for quite some time.

Really? You aren't at all interested in the spectrum of barrel lengths, as it affects velocity, done with do simular cartidges, to KNOW what barrel length you must have to make it a DG? I guess lump me in with all those gun heros that did EXACTLY this, to tell you EXACTLY what happens when you cut the barrel down.

Of course, you may not LIKE it, which is fine. However, I think its an amazingly valid test to see the actual results of KNOWN loads, in shorter and shorter barrels, and compare them

and to raise sand at the HH luddittes!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:A - NUL ! Time would be better spent developing hunting skills rather than worry about the full 10fps difference in factory loadings. Someone was boored and suckered a lot of folks into responding. Opps, guess I fell for that one too.

x2 +1

Perhaps, but this isn't a hunting forum. This is the place where we come to discuss just such issues.

i guess bitchin about the 375 ruger merely existing a superior use of one's time.... rather than TESTING it?

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:

If the ruger has more case capacity than it is going to get better numbers, nuff said, you can't argue math.

Actually the 375 Ruger will do better than the extra case capacity would suggest. The reason. The parallel sharp shouldered case will have the ffect of making powders like 4350 burn a little quicker.

Whether the barrel is 26" or 6" the 375 Ruger will be faster than the H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Woody,
part of the complaint is that the ruger's 160 fps headstart doesn't "mean anything" and that you can, with bodern powders, load the HH up that high... however, that obviates the 375's prowse as being THE 375, as its 100 years old ... and that a 375hh MEANS 300gr at 2500 .. anything else makes it just as new a ruger...

I like you Jeffe, I really do, but do you really believe that anyone buys that load of crap? Because modern powders allow the 375 H&H to push a 300gr bullet to 2600fps it is no longer a 375 H&H? Are you serious?

Do we have to use cordite to keep it a 375 H&H?
Do we need to use cup and core bullets to keep it an H&H?
Do we have to use corrosive primers to keep it an H&H?
No one reloaded in 1912, so do we have to use factory loads to keep it an H&H?

Jeffe, you love your new cartridge. Great. Enjoy it and stop coming up with silly games to justify your love.

If the H&H lovers wanted what the Ruger offers(less taper, sharp shoulder, more capacity/velocity) we would have reamed our H&Hs to 375 Weatherby. But very few have.

I know this is a low blow, but sometimes your logic reminds me of Shootaway running "bullet tests" with his hammer and anvil.

I wonder if you are going to cry when our prediction comes true and Ruger drops the 375 and ammo becomes scarce.

First off the H&H as loaded by Hornady developes 10fps MORE than the Ruger in 24 in barrel. Per Hornady website.

Second. The long taper body should be a more reliable feeding round than a sharp shoulder straight sided round.

That is 10 fps MORE and more reliable feeding, the old H&H wins on both counts. Test that.

Jason, this post wasn't aimed at you. The luddites claim that the 375 ruger can't make it's book, and that's "damning", amoung other reasons, to damn the ruger. The judgement here isn't about rifles, isn't about interior balastics (so much) and isn't about the name on the barrel. its about performance. I could give a rat's hiney for nostalgia... and, in my opinion, anyone who loads the 375 HH up faster than "book" acts, if not feels, the same way.

the shootaway comparison is an attempt to mock what you know will be the results. Sorry man, but that's a cheap shot, and below you

the claim of the ruger bashers is the ruger can't make book

let's define BOOK ...
the ruger is 2660 with a 300 gr bullet. That's a simple fact. Its SAAMI at that and what hornady claims.

the 375 HH is 300gr at 2500
what every maker of 375 hh ammo claims (except one hotrodded hornady load, ignore it, its not nostalgic)

plain and simple. straight line comparisons

if your comment is correct, that no one reloaded (i disagree, but that's imaterial) then BOOK was the ONLY ammo .. and it was "book" .. therefore all the nostalgic value of the round, once fired, was book.


my affection, or affliction, it a cartridge has nothing to do with the discussion.


I am NOT bashing the 375 HH in any way shape or form. Never have. I am taking a poke at 375HH luddittes.

the "oh, its a fad" thing is just boring...
the ruger case will be fading away ... just like all those rum/wsm cases from more than 10 years ago, right? Heck, winchester lost a patient suit and STILL chambers it

Jason, i am certain over a coffeeand a couple laughs, at some notorious ruger bashers expense, you'd be seeing the humor AND the rational behind it.

Frankly, I am willing to test book to book what the ruger bashers say can't be done.

FB, if you want to setup your own test, go do that .. (sigh) back on ignore for you, your story never changes

I don't care. Everything I ever shot with an H&H died, pretty much on the spot. Why bother with reinvinting the wheel again and again?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I was going to ask you Jeffe -- do you actually own one of those pipsqueak .375s??

If he does, what in the world would Jeffe do with something like that? Let his kids, wife shoot it or something? Be good to start my 7 yr old daughter out on something like that?

Michael

Two guys go to Africa. One has his hot new 375 Ruger. The other his old reliable H&H. Both gun cases arrive, but there is no sign of the checked luggage and the ammo.

Bottom line, one guy is hunting tomorrow morning with his rifle. The other is borrowing an unknown and unproven rifle because there is no slick new Ruger ammo to be had at any cost.

Now, that little bit of added Ruger velocity doesn't look so good after all.

My $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Two guys go to Africa. One has his hot new 375 Ruger. The other his old reliable H&H. Both gun cases arrive, but there is no sign of the checked luggage and the ammo.

Bottom line, one guy is hunting tomorrow morning with his rifle. The other is borrowing an unknown and unproven rifle because there is no slick new Ruger ammo to be had at any cost.

Now, that little bit of added Ruger velocity doesn't look so good after all.

My $.02.

But it's in a shorter action

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I don't care. Everything I ever shot with an H&H died, pretty much on the spot. Why bother with reinvinting the wheel again and again?

Right on, brother. Wheels still roll and the H&H still rules.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Two guys go to Africa. One has his hot new 375 Ruger. The other his old reliable H&H. Both gun cases arrive, but there is no sign of the checked luggage and the ammo.

Bottom line, one guy is hunting tomorrow morning with his rifle. The other is borrowing an unknown and unproven rifle because there is no slick new Ruger ammo to be had at any cost.

Now, that little bit of added Ruger velocity doesn't look so good after all.

My $.02.

But it's in a shorter action

The compact action works great as a nutcracker when there's no ammo to be had!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The luddites claim that the 375 ruger can't make it's book, and that's "damning", amoung other reasons, to damn the ruger. The judgement here isn't about rifles, isn't about interior balastics (so much) and isn't about the name on the barrel. its about performance. I could give a rat's hiney for nostalgia...

No one likes the 375 H&H more than I, but even I will admit that the Ruger is a "better" cartridge.

Let me say it this way, if the Ruger was introduced in 1912 and the H&H was the newcomer the H&H would die a quick death.

But the reason I will hold on to my H&H is that it more than gets the job done, it will prove to be less of a hassle than the Ruger(feeding, availability, etc.) and in a distant third place is the nostalgia.

As to those who say the Ruger won't do what is claimed, you know what you know, so screw-em!



And speaking of my low-blow, you never did answer my PM regarding the hoot and shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
aint had a drop, kieth, kind of resent that... this has been kicking around in my head for some time, and i am willing to my money where my mouth is. I'll bet no 375HH owner is willing to do the sme.

Ryan,
this is BIG BORES, not AFRICAN HUNTING ..
You have presented a strawman post, that if we are in the less than 1% of the less than 1% of the less than 9% of all shooters (9% own a bigbore , 1% that goes to africa, and 1% that losses their ammo) which is 0.0009% (math is correct- 9 in a million), and that INCLUDES 45/70 owners AND rubes without having 5-10 rounds stashed elsewhere, however, the other 999,991 people would have ammo on hand.

In other words, you aren't willing to bet your holland (really, you have a holland rifle, or you have a 375HH chambered gun?) against a ruger, spec to spec?

Nah it's a Sako. And I bet the Ruger cartridge is faster, although Federal does load the TBBC to 2600 and that's plenty for me. Frankly I doubt there is an animal alive that will notice the difference so I'm not going to bother replacing what I have.

That said, from a pure design perspective, the Ruger is better.

quote:

The compact action works great as a nutcracker when there's no ammo to be had!

quote:

First off the H&H as loaded by Hornady developes 10fps MORE than the Ruger in 24 in barrel. Per Hornady website.

Second. The long taper body should be a more reliable feeding round than a sharp shoulder straight sided round.

That is 10 fps MORE and more reliable feeding, the old H&H wins on both counts. Test that.

This is not hot rod ammo, this is the current technology applied to both rounds by the same vendor. I assume any test would have same ground rules. Or, are we all expected to use black powder when comparison is made between the 450Marlin and 45/70 (another bad idea).

And a yes a rational person knows the few fps or 1% capacity difference don't matter for squat, but in a purely academic exercise (experiment) both ctgs should be loaded the same way in similar guns with best powders. In fact a fair test would be to crono Hornady superformance side by side in a sample of guns - but that assumes a few fps would matter.

For me, I am happy with good old loads in both 375H&H and if I had one, 404J. Those hi end loads are available and maybe useful for those who see a need. The same guys who live and die by 1%. On the other hand, I use the hi end 45/70 loads. Its great to have a choice, thank god the 450 Marlin did not come along sooner.

People who commented on this forum are buying the 375Ruger for low cost and handy package.

The last debate on 357Ruger ended up locked by George. I wonder if a similar fate awaits?

Ryan -- i think the rounds are both well designed, for the time, and thanks for being nice in your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Two guys go to Africa. ...My $.02.

i repeat ---
this is BIG BORES, not AFRICAN HUNTING ..
You have presented a strawman post, that if we are in the less than 1% of the less than 1% of the less than 9% of all shooters (9% own a bigbore , 1% that goes to africa, and 1% that losses their ammo) which is 0.0009% (math is correct- 9 in a million), and that INCLUDES 45/70 owners AND rubes without having 5-10 rounds stashed elsewhere, however, the other 999,991 people would have ammo on hand.

We have "Big Bores", "African Hunting" and my god !! There is a "RELOADING" forum on AR:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...rums/a/frm/f/2511043

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
who wouldn't mind cutting the barrel off a ruger?!

Me, me, me!!!

I could make a clean cut with a bandsaw, but using an oxy-acetylene cutting torch would be way more fulfilling; some might say deprecating. If it was a stainless rooger barrel, my Hypertherm plasma cutter would make short work of it.

There have just been too many whiz-bang cartidges debuted in the past 10 years. Sure some may top the velocity department in their bore size; some may do it with a shorter action, some may do it with a shorter barrel, and some may do it all. Time will tell which will become established. The sheer numbers of the duplicates say most will fall by the wayside.

I will add that a lot of these cartridges weren't as well engineered that they should have been. I have seen 300 WSM ammo chamber in 270 WSM model 70. The 22 LR and 22 mag will fit in the cylinder of a 17HMR.

Short and fat may be the latest fad but I like my two vices to be long and lean, that being old guns and young women! I don't hotrod my 375 H&H I load 300 gn bullets over 66.5 gns of IMR 4064 with a Fed 215 primer in a Winchester case. It ain't broke and I ain't fixin it.

The 375 Ruger is great out of the gate, but does it have stayin power? Time will tell.

Here is the test I would like to run, let's roll the clock forward 90 years to 2100. Let's assume for the moment that the Big O has not been successful and people are still allowed to own guns. Then let's look at which cartridge has withstood (or continued to withstand) the test of time. I will be long gone by then, but I would encourage my heirs to take the over on the .375 H&H with some portion of my estate.

No matter where you fall on the "375H&H vs. 375Ruger" fence this experiment is still interesting if only to get an idea how much barrel length affects velocity.

For some, velocity isn't at all important (at least they say it isn't) and for others, every 10fps is yet another Holy Grail sought.

Might be interesting to see 1)the effects of barrel length on velocity for each 375 and 2)whether the differences in case "efficiency" affect decrement in velocity as barrels are shortened.

I think Bitterroot (Wayne at AHR) and Robgunbuilder had mentioned doing something similar with their big boomers a few years back. Don't know if that happened.

quote:

I guess lump me in with all those gun heros that did EXACTLY this, to tell you EXACTLY what happens when you cut the barrel down.

If it's been done then we should have a good idea as to how the R vs H&H should fare.

Ok, ok, UNCLE UNCLE I give... the 375 R is a superior round.... Who effing cares?

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I guess lump me in with all those gun heros that did EXACTLY this, to tell you EXACTLY what happens when you cut the barrel down.

If it's been done then we should have a good idea as to how the R vs H&H should fare.

Ok, ok, UNCLE UNCLE I give... the 375 R is a superior round.... Who effing cares?

Baxter,
other rounds.. guys like, oh, ackley, garnick, oconner, whelen .. cut down rounds and found out exactly what it would do. I remember being a kid reading about cutting down the 243 to KNOW what cutting to 16 or 18 or 20 inches would actually do. Not conjecture, not pontificating, but having actual results.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Who effing cares?

Apparently you do, enough to particiate in the dicussion.

A lot of folks are dancing both sides of this issue. Someone please cough up a rifle so Jefe can complete the testing. Should be interesting!

I am going to be chopping up a ruger, no matter what ... jsut trying to see if anyone has enough academic interest to chop on a 375 ... I guess i can just buy an AB barrel and go it alone .. not nearly as fun, as then it WILL be "oh, jeffe loves the ruger"
Seriously, I can just see it now "oh, of course the HH lost, jeffe is biased to the ruger" ..

I can just buy 2 ab barrels and chamber them up .. aint as much fun as chopping up a cz, but it can be done

quote:

Apparently you do, enough to particiate in the dicussion

pointing out the asinine nature of a challenge which would be better settled with a tape measure than a chronograph hardly qualifies as interest.

If oh, say, a round guy like Ackley took the time to improve the H&H, he must have already done the old barrel cutting test you talk about. just do your test with the 375R post the results for anyone to dispute or to quantify with a second test, fashion your little crown of tin foil and call yerself king.