[QUOTE]Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
[QUOTE]Should there be a lower limit for caliber?

Finally, 'hole size'.
I don't think any of us want to see a flat-nose, 70-grain solid fired from a 223 Rem in 7" twist. It would probably work. Most of the time. I take that back. We probably would all like to see what it does in tests, but would never want to recommend that to anyone.



I recently read of a test of a .223, 62gr with 67% diameter flatnose solid penetrate 50 inches!!!

I didn't know Michael was able to pick up creatures that small, much less have a ctg/rifle to shoot them in.

50 inches!!!!!!

quote:

I recently read of a test of a .223, 62gr with 67% diameter flatnose solid penetrate 50 inches!!!

Like I said, it would probably work, most of the time. It could be made to penetrate.

The trouble is that a little .22" hole through buffalo lungs might get an unlucky placement between major blood vessels and leave the buffalo mobile for a long time.
That's why we want a bigger hole.

.243 is about 20% better, .277 better by an increment again, .308 is almost 2 times better than .224 (1.89 exactly), .338 still better, .375 better, .416 better (and 1.82 times better than .308), .458 better, and .50 even better.
Each increment is approximately 20% better than its predecessor in terms of square frontal area.

As they say, "Diameter counts for something."
Somewhere around .4"--.5" diameter, experience has shown that hunters can be pretty confident with good shot placement on Mr. Nyati. And faster seems to add to displacement and trauma, if someone wants to load a calibre on the high side.

Tanz,

Michael sent me a pm about some bullets I ordered and let me know about this recent test run of his. So I posted just in time for your question.

Now it is time for him to perform REAL penetration tests with .20 and .17Calibers......real ELE medicine

AB

Boys, Caliber/diameter makes a difference! Of that, no doubt. Yep, you can poke holes, and kill about anything that walks with the small bores, it's been done, so no arguing that point. But those small bores cannot inflict the trauma that the larger bores do.

There are two ways to inflict trauma on animal tissue as I see it--Velocity and Diameter, and both combined.

Back in the day before decent 45/70 bullets I was doing a lot of shooting with 45/70. Running bullets 1700-1900 fps. It did the job, but it was not impressive. There was no raw knock down trauma inflicted on anything I shot. When I started shooting a 458 Winchester with premium 400 gr bullets at 2350 fps--Business picked up a lot! I got to see lot's of trauma inflicted, night and day difference between the two. Velocity helped inflict trauma in 458 caliber.

Back in 2006 the first outing with the prototype 50 B&M--.500 caliber. Running common bullets at that time, so velocity had to be kept to 1800-2000 fps for those bullets to operate and not fly all to hell. Only shooting wildebeast, zebra, eland, things like that. Things I had direct comparisons to in 45/70. I fully expected about the same results as what I got with 45/70, I was operating in the same velocity range. What I got was a big surprise!!! Now, DIAMETER made all the difference in the world, diameter was now inflicting that trauma, and these animals were bang, flop, like many I had hammer with 458 Winchester and 458 Lott at higher velocity. So now, Diameter took over in place of velocity.

For dangerous game there is no substitute for diameter. Even with smaller bores driving higher velocity, it's still no match for a big bore at moderate velocity--2000-2200 fps with a good bullet. Now, increase the velocity of the big bore, and things go all out of proportion then.

Bullets enhance also! The way a particular bullet works terminally can make as much difference again! I think the NonCons inflict more trauma than our common expanding bullets on average across the board. We are getting ready to learn a great deal more about this effect this year, and next year as well. Next year I intend to take one of my 9.3 B&Ms down to Australia, and see if we can give those buffalo a hard time, or not? Of course, I will be using, "Enhanced" bullets! Or maybe even, "Magic" bullets by then?

Michael

OK, all this talk and no terminals recently have the "Natives" on the warpath, and restless eh? Well, medical leave is over and we are back in the shooting business here! Of course I have been building up over the last few days shooting small bores, 458 and .500. Getting back into shooting shape!

Talk about big bore trauma---Well here it is;



I was trying to work my way to the magic test velocity that I had targeted. 900 gr at 2150 to 2200 fps. I had not quite made it on this one. But as you can see at 68 inches, what does it matter?

Stepping up a full 10 grs of powder got me exactly where I wanted to be. This will be the load that I test all the bullets that CCMDoc sent along with the rifle. Now the others have quite a chore competing with this I am afraid? We will see over the next few days.






We have never had a NonCon penetrate so deep! As I recall the deepest was one of the 460 .500 NonCons at 2400 fps or so driving to 37 inches. I did not think 40+ was even possible. There it is. The one bullet lost stability and tumbled at 43-44 inches, backwards at 45 inches. It had driven dead straight to that point. The other, 43 inches straight. Trauma incredible, blades sheared perfect and went to as far as 12 inches!

If you can't do it with this--You don't need to be doing it at all!

Over the next few days I will be doing more work with the mighty 600!

Thanks to CCMDoc as well, for the loan of the rifle, dies, brass to allow us to gather this info.

Well, sun is down, and I am out of here!

Tomorrow is another day!

Michael

Well between the work you and Sam have done with these CEB bullets at low (1,850fps~100g Cordite), medium (1,950fps ~ 110g Cordite) and high 600NE velocities (2,050fps ~ 120g Cordite) as well as moderate 600 Overkill velocities (2,150fps), I'd say you put to rest the myth about .620 bullet penetration or lack thereof.

Non-cons seem just as if not more impressive!

Damn that's an awesome flying power drill and organ blender.

Michael and Sam (and Dan of CEB),
Seems for the ultra-bore calibers, your work and design gives me a bullet that provides all the penetration I need for any game.

The 577NE at classic velocites Sam's 577Nitro Express with 750g CEB#13 and the 600NE at low velocities 600OK at low 600NE velocities with 900g CEB#13 have nearly the same, incredible penetration in your test media.

I have no doubt that these tests results will be validated on each of our safaris in the coming months.

"We are getting ready to learn a great deal more about this effect this year, and next year as well. Next year I intend to take one of my 9.3 B&Ms down to Australia, and see if we can give those buffalo a hard time, or not? Of course, I will be using, "Enhanced" bullets! Or maybe even, "Magic" bullets by then?"

Request that all field trials be accompanied by large band width satelite communications for daily reports from all over the world, espically the two A's.

quote:

I have been building up over the last few days shooting small bores, 458 and .500.

"Small bores"

The .600's don't seem to be awesome. They seem to be awe- inspiring!

The "myth" and "reputation" of the Ultra Bores (585-620) have always been "Over Blown" you might say. Until the BBW#13 these were never that impressive to me. But it's not the various cartridges, it's not the wonderfully big rifles they are chambered in---It's the damned sorry ass bullets that were available for them!!!! Today, look at what you have available? Barnes has brought on some good Ultra Bores, but that is about it. Woodleigh FMJs are useless, and not to mention the fact, ugly as hell. The softs are great, but very very soft. Impact velocity of 2000 fps will turn them flat, limiting penetration on buffalo. Lion, big hammers--so don't forget the actual use of a particular bullet needs to be matched to game sought! Good for one thing--not good for another.

The BBW#13s--Solid/NonCon-changes all that for the Ultra Bores--they even impress me seriously, and performance is the thing that impresses me, not bore size, not mine is bigger than yours, Performance is the only thing that counts with me. G.D.--These things Perform!!!

If you recall back when Sam and I were testing the 577 Nitro and the BBW#13s in his rifle. I had NEVER had an Ultra Bore penetrate the first box, into the second box of test medium. Was not possible. We tested, forget the velocity exactly, but Sam looked and we had a pass through. I never doubt Sam, but I thought he was joking, I had to look myself! It did--I said it must have found a VOID in the mix. Fluke I said. Until it did it on the other side of the test medium as well!!!! Then I said--It Ain't No Fluke!!!!! It's Real--and I really started having some respect for 577 at that point, which I had never had before.

Now I failed to mention one more very good bullet out there, and that is the S&H bullet, Agent J himself made. This is a hard hitting, drive straight design and I have some to test right along with the others. Now, do not expect it to drive as deep and the #13--it's meplat is much larger, I will measure exact, but I guess 75% meplat right now. But do remember, it's not all about depth of penetration--it's about straight line penetration and adequate depth. I would much rather have a bullet that consistently drives straight to 50 inches than one that can make it to 60 inches but is 4 inches off course by that time! Agent J bullet will drive straight, of that I have no doubt! It also has a perfectly rounded off radius on the meplat, which we have discovered is needed and desired--Agent J knew this before we did of course, and all the bullets I have seen from him have this attribute.

The Ultra Bores have never had it this good before. When Sam took his 577 Nitro across the pond for buffalo/elephant last year, I stated many times that the African Continent had never before seen a more capable 577 Nitro, ever! Of course, loaded with BBW#13s! I was correct as well!



Michael

In addition, they make terrific paper weights, conversation pieces, and finger weights for maintaining muscle tone. The non coms can double as candle holders when on safari.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
In addition, they make terrific paper weights, conversation pieces, and finger weights for maintaining muscle tone. The non coms can double as candle holders when on safari.

Of the 600 OK, my father said "Shoot it? Just throw the damn thing at the Cape buffalo, the impact alone should do the trick."

Michael,
Could you download some 900grain Solids and 825grain NonCons at about 1700f/s for the .600 Overkill and compare their performance (penetration depth, expansion) at the same distance with the same bullets driven at higher velocities (1900-2200f/s)?
Thank you in advance.

Lefteris
www.eutopeancartridgeunlimited.com

quote:

Originally posted by Lefteris Vassiliadis:
Michael,
Could you download some 900grain Solids and 825grain NonCons at about 1700f/s for the .600 Overkill and compare their performance (penetration depth, expansion) at the same distance with the same bullets driven at higher velocities (1900-2200f/s)?
Thank you in advance.

Lefteris
www.eutopeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefty

I have been EXTREMELY busy this past week, beyond imagination! However, yesterday morning, very early, I was on the range doing this very thing, some low velocity work, some very low velocity work as well.

Working on the data as I type this, and within 10 minutes or so, it will be posted.

Ask and thou shall receive!

Michael

Yes, I wanted also to get some data on the BBW#13 .620s at low velocity. Some were much lower velocity than I had targeted.

Here I was actually targeting 1600 fps or so, I had 1487 fps and the results were excellent.




The matching 825 NonCon at extreme low velocity, still shears!!!!!!!




Bumping velocity up with the 900 BBW#13 to 1700 fps at the muzzle was extreme again!




At any velocity you want to work with these bullets you are in dandy shape, make it light on yourself!

This is VERY VERY excellent news for ALL 600 Nitro guys! Pick the velocity that works best in your rifle and go with it! You have enough bullet to accomplish your mission whatever velocity you choose!

This will conclude all work right now with the BBW#13s. We have extreme low velocity tests and higher velocity, working velocity of 2150 to 2200 fps--plenty believe me! So now I will continue on to test the other bullets Doc sent to me, all with the same powder charges as the 2150-2200 fps loads with the BBW#13s. We can see how they stack up, both velocity and terminals with the exact same load. That's next!!!!! Coming to you soon as I can!


Quickly to summarize things:

825 BBW#13 NonCon--1441 fps--19 inches Shears
825 BBW#13 NonCon--1914 fps--23 Inches
825 BBW#13 NonCon--2201 fps--43 Inches

900 BBW#13 Solid--1487 fps--52 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1702 fps--61 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1839 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--1895 fps--64 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2010 fps--68 Inches
900 BBW#13 Solid--2161 fps--76 Inches

All of these more than enough to accomplish any mission embarked upon!

Michael

Excellent work Michael and personally extremely useful to me

In our correspondence about powders, loads and velocities, it seems that 900g Kodiak soft points and CEB#13s go about he same speed for same charge of W760 while Reloder 22 and 25 show much lower velocities with the CEBs vs. Kodiaks for same charge weight.



Demonstrating once again that we can't swap components without risk - a safe maximum load with Reloder 22 and CEB#13 might be dangerous if substituting a Kodiak (or Woodleigh, or Barnes etc.).

I bet that 825g Non-Con felt great at ~ 1,400fps. Were you wondering if it was a mis-fire?


Again,I can't thank you enough for the education I continue to get from this thread.

Stay well,
Paul

CCMDoc

Oh man for sure, you have to watch things when changing bullets, primers, and I think even more important--different cans, or kegs of powder!

Just a couple of weeks ago I changed Kegs of RL 10X in the 500 MDM and 458 B&M. Both of these ARE the SAME Lot#!!!!!!!! But one keg sent my loads OVER THE TOP, past 70000 PSI! So I started dropping the charge to fall back in line with the other keg of RL 10X--And dropped 3 grs with the 500 MDM to equal, and 2 grs with the 458 B&M to equal the other can! Again, same Lot# on both cans!!!! 5 lb kegs, cans, whatever you want to call them.

This is one BIG reason I have gone to all larger cans--5-8 lbs, or the largest available, so for a period of time I need not concern myself, until the next can! Then it's a wise thing just to drop the charge by a couple of grains, check your velocities. If less, then you can go up, if not, start adjusting.

From the Data you sent to me, it seems my powder is giving slower velocity than yours. I have all the data, will send it along when finished with the work.

The 825 BBW#13 at 1400 fps? Shit, thought it was a BB gun! Had to look downrange to make sure there was a hole there and that something actually came out of the barrel other than noise! LOL

No thanks needed, I am learning too!

Michael

Most excellent work Michaeel. Thank you.
As I understand from your results, a 900 grain Solid .620 bullet at 1700f/s is not far behind the same bullet driven at higher (.600 NE) velocities concerning terminal performance. Even at 1500f/s it is more than enough for hunting big game at close range.
The US 900 slug we make for 12ga fully rifled shotgun barrels has 1500-1550f/s muzzle velocity when loaded in 12ga., 3.5" plastic hulls at under 1050bar.
In 12ga. brass hulls, necked down to accept .620 bullets, muzzle velocity of about 1700f/s could be achieved at the same 1050bar maximum pressures, I suppose. And the cartridge could be easily cycled through the shotguns mechanism and work without any modifications to the gun except a new barrel, of course.
For example, a Benelli Nova (or Supernova) with one smoothbore 12ga., 3.5" barrel with choke tubes and another one fully rifled barrel chambered for the .600 African (brass case, .620 bullets, 1700f/s). Most big game performance and versatility at lowest possible investment.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Hello All,

I've been thinking (yes it hurt) for a long time that the best dangerous game rifle would be built like a pump shotgun.
Something you could reload while still able to hold on target and be ready to fire.

Lefteris, where can I get more information on the 600 African?
That is one mannly looking beast

Cheers, John

With these low velocity tests in a .620 caliber no less; the BBW #13 nose profile proves its design.

Lefteris has some interesting bullet and cartridge combinations for use from 12-gauge shotguns, smoothbore or rifles bore. I do wonder how the 12-gauge 587gr CEB BBW #13 FN Hollow Bore bullets will perform from 12-bore paradox rifles.

John,
In reality, the .600 African cartridge does not exist. I only made a few prototypes to check functionality through modern 12ga shotgun platforms with 3.5" chambers. It cycles, feeds and ejects perfectly. If one of the big shotgun manufacturers produce a barrel, such chambered, it would be very easy to make the cartridge.
Another option is the .500 American (20ga. brass case necked down to accept .510 bullets) for existing 20ga shotguns. A 50cal, 550-600 grain bullet at about 2000f/s at standard pressures (1050bar max).

Jim,
Using brass cases, around 2000f/s could be easily achieved. Maybe you will need to fill the hollow base with silicone or something similar so that overpowder wads and cards do not get into, under firing pressure.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris,

The 587gr 12-bore CEB BBW #13 FN HB bullets were produced for Peter, forum handle peterdk, from Denmark. I thought it was an interesting bullet and wondered how it would compare with lighter weight saboted 12-bore bullets for straight-line penetration in Michael’s bullet box.

Jim,

Those 12 ga bullets Dan made for Peter were not #13s but had a radius ogive. These predated the #13. I had made a few for Peter to test that were similar and then he had me make a few to send to Dan for production. A #13 in one of those 12GA from Hell guns would be interesting to see what they would do. I have a fully rifled 12 GA barrel for an 1100 Rem that I forgot all about. Might just have to load some up and try them.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Jim,

Those 12 ga bullets Dan made for Peter were not #13s but had a radius ogive. These predated the #13. I had made a few for Peter to test that were similar and then he had me make a few to send to Dan for production. A #13 in one of those 12GA from Hell guns would be interesting to see what they would do. I have a fully rifled 12 GA barrel for an 1100 Rem that I forgot all about. Might just have to load some up and try them.

Sam

Sam you are correct... I seem to recollect this nose profile doing very well in multiple .500 caliber bullet weights so would definately be interesting to see how it works from a shotgun.

quote:

the best dangerous game rifle would be built like a pump shotgun.

A pump-action DGR! I like the idea!

I will keep my rifles thank you!

But a good bullet will most certainly improve things for the shotguns!

We will continue this week with the other .620 caliber bullets. They are loaded, and waiting. I did find an issue with the GSC--I think that's what this bullet is--It seems undersized at .615 and not .620. Loose in the case, only thing holding them in is the crimp. Sorta just sitting on top of a 170/WW 760 right now, crimped in. At .615 I am not sure how well they will do. I am sure they won't be stable. Meplat seems small as well, 57%, best I can measure. Bullet weighs 750 grs.

We will see.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I will keep my rifles thank you!

But a good bullet will most certainly improve things for the shotguns!

We will continue this week with the other .620 caliber bullets. They are loaded, and waiting. I did find an issue with the GSC--I think that's what this bullet is--It seems undersized at .615 and not .620. Loose in the case, only thing holding them in is the crimp. Sorta just sitting on top of a 170/WW 760 right now, crimped in. At .615 I am not sure how well they will do. I am sure they won't be stable. Meplat seems small as well, 57%, best I can measure. Bullet weighs 750 grs.

We will see.

Michael

CRAP!!! - forgot to tell you ...

After re-sizing cases I shold have mentioned to NOT run the case through the expander/belling die.

Sorry.

As Homer says....DOH !!!!!!

Sorry Doc M,

I wasn't talking about using a shotgun for a DG weapon. But a Rifle that loads and operates like a Pump Shotgun. If you remember your assault shotgun drills you might see my point.

Would it ever catch on? Oh Hell no. Not pretty or sexy enough. In fact it would be about as sexy as Rosy O'Donnel in a thong.
Oh, I'm going to be sick!!!

Later, John

quote:

CRAP!!! - forgot to tell you ...

After re-sizing cases I shold have mentioned to NOT run the case through the expander/belling die.

Sorry.

Doc

No sorry needed--I did not expand or bell the cases, they are full length sized, bullet still loose in the case--.615 is what I got. I will be surprised if they engage. We will see.


Phats

I don't think the actions are strong enough anyway, not much on shotguns myself, never had much of a use for one. Do have an 870 or two laying around here and there. Had a 10 ga Double one time, cut the barrels down some, thought it would be pretty nifty with slugs, but damned thing would not shoot for crap at 10 yds--so it hit the road!


My buddy is back from Africa! Have not spoke with him yet, this is the guy who took his 416 B&M, and I only give him one load to shoot--325 BBW#13 NonCon at 2540 fps, so waiting to hear how the bullets did, IF HE HIT ANYTHING THAT IS???

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As Homer says....DOH !!!!!!

quote:

I will keep my rifles thank you!

I, and probably Phatman, were thinking along the lines of a Remington 7600 slide-action rifle, only beefier (and better, most likely.)



http://www.remington.com/produ...tion-model-7600.aspx

Possibly even an update of the old Colt Lightning rifle with a magnum-length action:

This example of the Colt Lightning is in the semi-obsolete .50-95 caliber. (Of course, that curved buttplate has got to go IMO!)

Yes, I am familiar with those "r" things. Never cared for them.

That Colt Lightning is interesting however! Looks like fun. Still a little weak in the teeth I would think however.

Would be fast, no doubt about it.

Many years ago however I dispelled the Old saying about the pump action being as fast as a semi auto, on aimed fire, ain't so.

Michael

Just picture a modern pump rifle, like the Remmy above but with a fatter shorter barrel and a magazine tube under it.

Pure Rifle NO Shotgun.
The only thing you gain is the ability to load with a round in the chamber and ready to fire at ANY time.

We'll get Winchester to put thier name on it and make it in India in secret...LOL

Peace Love I'm outa here, John

While I'm dreaming...
I would prefer a Colt Lightning-style rifle because of the tube magazine, as opposed to the box magazine of the Remington. I could see where that action would be suitable for use with flat-nosed bullets. Likely even non-Cons. (Hey, do we need any other kinds?) And while I'm still dreaming, such a rifle wouldn't even need a magnum-length action thanks to the advent of the B&M line of cartridges.

Just saying...

I'll take one in 550 Express
The weapon would hold 5+1 With an 18 inch barrel. Weight about 91/2 pounds.

Nothing fancy

Ok-I sorta, just about, almost have a "Field Report" on the 416 B&M using the 325 BBW#13 NonCon HP from my buddy that was in Namibia, trying to shoot plains game!




As is typical, and as I fully expected, we sort of have a report. I have something on 3 oryx, 1 zebra, warthog shot with the 416 B&M and the bullet.

1 oryx, best I can tell shot in the rear leg, then 4 more times to put it down for good. Something about brush being thick, maybe scope was off, something? Two bullets were recovered from this animal, undoubtedly rear, or angled shots. Both found on the off side under the skin. One had smooth edges, for sure went through bone somewhere, the other, just like you see, broken beer bottle edges.

Another oryx that I really did not get the whole story on????

1 oryx that took one through the chest, or front half anyway, and dropped to the shot, never moved again. I suspect that this was one of the better shots made. Something Extremely interesting about this one, there were 4 Exits--From one Bullet. Meaning that 3 blades exited broadside. Oryx skin is VERY thick--I would have never expected this, ever.

1 warthog--1st shot in the GUTS--blowing out the other side, big mess. Pig runs, second shot through the shoulders, told it was a very big mess, huge exit hole! I suspect bullet and all petals exited to make that big of a mess on exit. ????

1 Zebra, thick brush again, shot in the neck? Close range, 30--40 yds. Dropped to the shot, did not get up again. I am told bullet exited of course, and again 3-4 of the petals or blades exited as well. Another surprise, as I would have expected none of the blades to exit.

You have what I got? Sounds like to me, if the shots were placed properly then the bullet did an excellent job of trauma transfer and terminal performance. Not placed properly, they are still not miracle bullets yet! Still have to chase them down, shoot them some more- HEH HEH.

Oh and there was a story about a hartebeast, shot, missed, lost, something???? Not recovered?

He also shot some things with a 338 Winchester loaded with 225 Barnes TSX. Same story, some misses, some off hits, some dead, no real gathered data on this. I can tell you this, I had to use this same POS rifle of his for the muskox with the same bullet and load, it took the muskox down very nicely, I never even got to shoot either one of them again before they were on the dirt, or I should say "In the Ice". So I know this is a great 338 load and bullet.

That's all I have on that!

Michael

Very helpful info.

Looks like a nice bullet for my wife at any speed. We might try 102 grains of AA3100 in 416 rigby, guestimating around 2600fps.

anyway, it's good to hear that nothing was shot at a buffalo. I've never been around a gut-shot mbogo and wouldn't like to be.

If I am with him I normally get to do a lot of shooting. And yes, have been around the gut shot buffalo several times. Once I refused to shoot and let him have at it. Had to do with something he said to me before hand, so............ He lost it too!

I think that bullet is a hammer when placed correctly! I was very surprised about blades exiting, I think that was incredible. They don't weigh enough to be able to do that! But they are not pushing through, they are slicing through. Same here in the test work, they slice.

M