Lefteris,
Your countrymen have really taken the smooth bore to the next level. Very very well done.

Cheers, John

Thank you John,
Our next project for the 12ga smoothbore will be a lightweight bullet at high velocity (2500 to 3000f/s)for light to medium game hunting.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Just my opinion

Try a big square hollow point in the 570, getting the weight donw to 480, and make it out of copper.
Put that in a 31/2 mag load and you will have a major medium game cartridge.
At least it will be fun testing them.

Cheers, John

Lefteris

I agree with the boys, excellent work with the slugs, appears to be an excellent designed bullet that will enhance these shotgun bores greatly. Good Work!

Michael

Thank you Michael.
John,
The US-S 570 could be loaded in a 3.5" hull at almost 1900f/s.
We have cosidered a hollow point design but we think that the SOFLID (SOFt-soLID) slug offers better terminal performance. The Soflid works as an expanding slug when hits game and then the petals break away leaving a solid one to penetrate. This design offers both expansion and penetration built into the same desigh. The slug in the photo weights 620 grain and was shoot at 1600f/s loaded in a 12ga, 3" hull.The four petals that consist the expanding portion of the slug separated after reaching full expansion leaving the solid part to continue penetration.
We intend to make the Soflid concept in rifle bullets, as well, with some minor design changes.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

quote:

We have cosidered a hollow point design but we think that the SOFLID (SOFt-soLID) slug offers better terminal performance. The Soflid works as an expanding slug when hits game and then the petals break away leaving a solid one to penetrate. This design offers both expansion and penetration built into the same desigh. The slug in the photo weights 620 grain and was shoot at 1600f/s loaded in a 12ga, 3" hull.The four petals that consist the expanding portion of the slug separated after reaching full expansion leaving the solid part to continue penetration.

Lefteris

Sounds like nearly exactly what we are doing here, what some more chaps are doing in Australia as well---Brass NonCons!---Non-Conventional. I suppose you have been watching this thread? We have been working hard with the NonCons, and continue to do so. Had some go to the field end of last year, excellent results thus far. Have some in the field right now as I type this, waiting on reports. Others headed to the field with them in various calibers, and I myself am headed to the field soon as well to conduct some serious test work with them.

What sort of testing have you been doing with these?

Michael

Michael,
Yes I have been watching your very interesting and informative thread since the begining.
The Soflid is not exactly like the Non-Con. I will try to better describe its design.
Imagine a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or a North Fork Premium Bonded Core bullet. Remove the front lead portion and fill the cavity with a brass post until almost to the nose, creating a small cavity. After hitting the front petals expand and peel back (like a banana). When reaching full expansion they separate from the bullet leaving a slightly shorter solid bullet to continue penetration.
We only made some limited penetration tests with the Soflid slug but we hope it will be available until the next hunting season hear (September).
Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris

Very Excellent, did not know you were on board, and it's been some time as well. Welcome, and glad to have you here. Now, curious about some things.

Brass Post? Rear of the bullet is solid correct, then filled with Brass Post???

Well at any rate, they should or do perform exactly like our NonCons--6 blades shearing while the remaining slug continues to penetrate. Performance the same.

Hopefully I will be testing some of our NonCons again this week and will report. But the big thing is we are going to get a lot of field work done this season to confirm the test work. I have 99% confidence of how the NonCons are going to perform. Not much doubt about that. What I will be watching and listening for, and have instructed all the guys I know personally, is "Trauma Inflicted" upon taking that NonCon. Animal reactions--this is what I am after.

Thanks for introducing us to your bullet, and do keep us posted. Welcome again!

Michael

Thank you Michael,
To better describe how the "solid" part of the Soflid bullet will look (after breaking of petals) take the rear, cylindrical, part of a .458 solid bullet and the ogive of a .375 flat nose solid bullet. Now put the .375 part on top of the .458 part and create a new bullet. This is how a .458 Soflid bullet will loke after expansion. I will try to find some 44 cal. Soflids of some testing we made years ago and post photos of them.
Keep up the good work.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris,

Do you have a State side distributer for your slugs?
If not, how do we buy them?

570 grain slug at 1900 fps is over 4500 pounds of energy. I know some heavy cover BIG Hogs that will not like that at all.

Cheers and good luck always

John,
We are looking for distributors in USA and other countries as well.Since then,please, send e-mail at:
info@europeancartridgeunlimited.com
Michael,
Some 44 mag. Soflid bullets, 250grain at about 1100f/s fired at wet newsprint from 10m. Penetration depth, if I remember correctly, was between soft point and solid bullet depth.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Wrong direction.

Based on the tests done here, I'm beginning to think that the African countries that specify a 40 or greater caliber or energy level or what have you for DG hunting have taken the whole issue in the wrong direction.

To insure a clean result, there are two things necessary, proper bullet placement and proper bullet performance - penetration to the vitals. None of the specifications that are part of the African requirements contributes to either factor!

Starting with caliber, look how many PHs appear to prefer a 375 H & H in the hands of the hunter and will accept a 9.3 with no problem providing the hunter can hit a pie plate at hunting ranges. Bullet placement. Speaking of bullet placement, look at Saeed's latest DVDs with his 375 wildcat!

At the opposite end of the scale is the PH who claims to be able to put more bullets into a pie plate at 25 yards with a hand gun than most folks who show up with a 460 Weatherby. As to hunting ranges for DG, one PH tries his clients with targets at different ranges and claims that most need under 100 meters to hit the pie plate, I think between 65 and 75 meters.

As for bullet performaance, lets consider the ele head shot. What is needed after correct placement is penertation into the brain cavity. After that it's all over. Please note the penetration capabilities of the CEB #13 in both 375 H&H and 9.3 mm. Either will handle penetration issue with no problem.

Maybe what is needed is a specification based on bullet penetration accompanied with a "shooting" test for the hunter similar to a driving test. You want to hunt, you hit the pie plate at hunting ranges with a solid bullet that exhibits a specified penetration in a specificed test medium. For noncoms, the same thing but the bullet has to exhibit proper explosive behavior.

Should there be a lower limit for caliber? I've read countless books where 6.5 and 7 mm rifles doing just fine with bullets not as good as those we can produce now. My favorite was a member of European Royality who desired to be charged by a lion. Seems she wanted to belong to a club that required stopping a charging lion. The PH accomodated and so she did with her 7 mm that had been used on Cape Buffalo very nicely.

quote:

Should there be a lower limit for caliber? I've read countless books where 6.5 and 7 mm rifles doing just fine with bullets not as good as those we can produce now. My favorite was a member of European Royality who desired to be charged by a lion. Seems she wanted to belong to a club that required stopping a charging lion. The PH accomodated and so she did with her 7 mm that had been used on Cape Buffalo very nicely.

I Bin There, too. Yes, a 270 can kill a buffalo nicely.
BUT--I don't think that is right. There have been too many buffalo wounded by 303's, 30-06's, et al., and many times with solid bullets (granted, not 'flat-nose'). I'm for using the biggest calibre that one has within reach, assuming good bullets.

Laws, on the other hand, need compliance and enforcement. The last thing that Africa needs is a testing law that requires everyone to shoot their ammo at a government testing center. Practically speaking, it will never happen. But even theoretically, one doesn't want such a thing on the books. Instead, recommendations could be posted with all PH's and game licensing officials in the country.

One could specify that a buffalo bullet must be capable of 18-20" penetration in wet paper. 'Wet paper', of course, is easier than Michael's mix. Michael's mix should have a minimum of 15-18".

Should there be an energy minimum? I'm not sure. Those 9.3's don't even make 4000 ft-lb muzzle energy. But it is impact energy that counts, and potential penetration at impact, too.
So for safety, one might specify 18" wet paper penetration at 125 yards, whatever the energy.

Finally, 'hole size'.
I don't think any of us want to see a flat-nose, 70-grain solid fired from a 223 Rem in 7" twist. It would probably work. Most of the time. I take that back. We probably would all like to see what it does in tests, but would never want to recommend that to anyone.

With the new larger bores available in lower-priced rifles like the CZ550 and Ruger Alaskan, PH's can now suggest 'over-40'. Or provide access to an 'over-40'. For custom rifles we have the 416 B&M and AccRel as nice recommended minimums, 45's are better, and 50's better still.

But for true minimums, PH's should have rifles in the 3000-4000 ft-lb range for hunters under 130 lb. weight (59 kg.).With .308, .338, .358, .366, .375, it's all a scale that depends on the skill of the hunter/shooter and integrity of the bullet more than calibre. Maybe have a sliding minimum recommendation scale from .308 for a 50kg. hunter to .416 for a 80kg. hunter.

My wife is 110 lbs and handles a 338 WM but prefers a 270. We're looking for some 416 loads for her to have a nice little shove later this year. Elenor O'Connor used a 30-06 on elephant, but we don't happen to hunt elephant.

quote:

BUT--I don't think that is right. There have been too many buffalo wounded by 303's, 30-06's, et al., and many times with solid bullets (granted, not 'flat-nose'). I'm for using the biggest calibre that one has within reach, assuming good bullets.

I wish we could find some stastically valid data. I suspect that there have been many buffalo wounded by 40s and above also. Maybe more than the small calibers. My assumption being that a larger caliber's recoil makes bullet placement more difficult for many African hunters.

The work on this site keeps making me ask, why the biggest caliber, what does the biggest caliber do? Isn't it all about penetration? Doctair, who I admire greatly, once kept a client from shooting a buffalo with a 308 because it was too small a caliber. I can't buy that anymore. Not enough penertation would have been a valid reason. Can't make the shot would have been a valid reason. I can't make up a reason based on caliber anymore.

I'm not sure what you mean by "all a scale that depends on the skill of the hunter/shooter and integrity of the bullet more than calibre". I don't want to say, the worse of a shot you are, the bigger caliber gun you should carry. I can't see a bigger caliber incesasing your ability to properly place a shot. And unlike early Weatherby statements, I don't believe there is such a thing as a caliber that will kill no matter where you hit the animal unless you're using an exploding shell of some very large size or a poisoned dart. As for hunter weight, Elmer Keith, a light weight in size, used to claim that little guys could handle big calibers better because they rolled with the recoil rather then tried to over power the gun. Again Doctari claims he has been able to teach anyone to shot his 505 regardless of his/her size. He says stock design is the key. Maybe?

I keep asking myself, what does caliber have to do with increasing the likelyhood of a kill? Isn't it all about placement and penetration? If so, what are reasonable requirements for an African hunter? I can't buy caliber anymore.

quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "all a scale that depends on the skill of the hunter/shooter and integrity of the bullet more than calibre".

Good question. I can see that my statement was too terse.
When someone uses a sub-40 calibre with a good bullet, success will depend on bullet placement, just like with over-40 bullets.
However, a person should use a bigger, more-powerful calibre whenever given a chance, as long as the shooter can handle the gun well.

Why use the heavier calibre? Because there are unpredictable and unforseen events in hunting.
To name a few of the obvious:
1. the animal takes a step and turns as the trigger was squeezed, possibly moving the impact away from the top of the heart, or wherever.
2. The bullet hits an "invisible" twig on route to the animal.
3. The bullet impacts in the 'vital area', but finds a path that takes out fewer rather than more of the major blood vessels. The animal will certainly die, the shot was good, but the animal will end up mobile considerably longer than predicted.

The three senarios above are all enhanced in the hunter's favor with a larger calibre, fully penetrating, expanding bullet.

Does that mean that a person should be forbidden from hunting a buffalo with a .308 calibre? Not in my opinion. But it means that the chance of a close encounter with a buffalo increase with the smaller calibre. Anyone who uses a smaller than .40 calibre should realize that they are taking upon themselves a slightly greater risk. Since a few percentage points can be shaved off of the risk factor by using a larger calibre, I am in favor of larger calibres for those who skillfully fire them.

My comments on bodyframe weight and minimum calibre were in relation to scoped rifles. It takes training to unconsciously avoid 'magnum eyebrow' with heavier calibres and I've just assumed, without proof, that this is more easily managed by larger individuals.

By the way, for me, skillfully firing a rifle means hitting the paper plate at 200 and 300 yards, or quite a bit more, depending on the rest available. Offhand should be avoided on dangerous game (esp. over 50 yards), though I have not always followed my own rule. Offhand practice at 100 yards is a good habit for everyone, though it can be partially simulated through 'dry fire' practice, for those without easy access to range and ammo.

As to shooting 505's, I wish I owned one. However, in principle, I evaluate and plan to use a calibre based on it's handloaded potential in a bolt-action rifle. I suspect that a 505 could be safely loaded up towards 9000 ftlbs and I'm not sure that everyone would safely and accurately handle such a rifle. A 110 pound body with 6000 ftlbs can work, but may be 'pushing the envelope'. 5000 ftlbs is nicer for them and 4000 ftlbs can certainly be made comfortable.

quote:

Isn't it all about placement and penetration? If so, what are reasonable requirements for an African hunter? I can't buy caliber anymore.

It's also about rapidly incapacitating the animal. We cannot rely on disrupting the nervous system by a fragment that penetrates or shocks the spine. Nor can we rely on crippling both front legs. Our 'guanrantee' is to penetrate the 'heart-lung' area in such a way that massive trauma and bleed-out occur. A larger wound channel will do a better job of rapid incapacitation, all things being equal. I think that most people have accumulated experiences that intuitively back up this claim.

It does not need dangerous game to be observed. If someone has seen 100 animals shot with a 30-06 and 100 animals shot with a 338 WM, I suspect that the impression will remain that the animals shot with the 338 travelled less than those shot with a 30-06. Individual cases will always be found outside of the 'average', but larger calibres are chosen in order to put the 'average reaction' to a 'heart-lung' shot in one's favor.

quote:

If someone has seen 100 animals shot with a 30-06 and 100 animals shot with a 338 WM, I suspect that the impression will remain that the animals shot with the 338 travelled less than those shot with a 30-06. Individual cases will always be found outside of the 'average', but larger calibres are chosen in order to put the 'average reaction' to a 'heart-lung' shot in one's favor.

PS: by "30-06" I would include 270 Win, 7x57, and 308. By "338" I would include the 300 Weatherby, 300 WM. I don't know where to put the 7mmRM or the 8x57.

This can also be repeated at a smaller scale. My 11-year-old son used to hunt with me with a 222 Rem. We would let him shoot oribis (and occasional other animals up to reedbuck and Uganda Cob when good shots were presented). However, when he was 12 he 'graduated' to a hard-buttplate 270 Win. The oribi and cob did not run as far. The 270 just did a more thorough job. So he was 'allowed' hartebeests and warthogs, too. At the time, he thought that that was a normal kid's life.

Very interesting conversation. Personally, while I believe standards requiring both a minimum caliber and minimum muzzle energy to be a far safer scenario than to leave it solely to the hunter because it somewhat eliminates the use improperly constructed bullets against DG animals. I do believe that there are cartridges smaller in caliber than the .375 H&H that would work very well against DG. I’m sure that with proper marksmanship by the hunter using properly constructed bullets that the 30-06 or 338-06 cartridges would work against DG just about as well as the 9.3x62 cartridge.

The big question is how to enforce the use of properly constructed CXP4 game bullets? I perceive this could drive the relaxing of both the minimum caliber and muzzle energy requirements by many African countries but how to accomplish it?

Michael458,

What's next up on the TBP agenda and what kind of timetable for release of said data before your upcoming field test?

Remember, please don't cut the barrel on my 600 OverKill to less than 16 1/2" nor make it much lighter than about 7 pounds - it might get a bit unpleasant plunking those 900 grainers at over 2,300 fps.

Thanks and stay well

IBT and Tanz

Excellent discussion, I have not clued in 100% yet, so I really can't comment right now concerning your caliber choices, small rat shooters, versus real bore diameters! Some might figure which side of the fence I would lean towards? Excellent none the less, and both have some excellent points!



Doc

Man, I had planned to be posting terminals TODAY--But since Friday I have been tied up tight trying to sort out these scopes for the 500 MDM. I swear, I am anal, I am obsessive compulsive when it comes to scopes and straight cross hairs. I may be a little nuts, honestly I think so. The one scope 1X4 Leupold I have been working with on the rifle every time I looked the cross hairs looked canted. Loosen--Tighten, several times! Shoot, it turns? After MANY of these incidents, finally I pulled the scope, changed rings, scrubbed the inside of the rings with sandpaper, rough them up. Put scope back on--same thing in less than sight in process!!!! Finally I pulled the scope, put another one on. Also sighted a backup scope and put it to the side. New 1X4, and I have it sighted now, I think, and it's still straight, I think? Driving me INSANE----Bugs I tell you--G.D. Bugs!

Had another little powder issue--New Keg of RL 10X--Much hotter than the previous Keg! Had to figure that out, drop by 3 grs in the 500 MDM and drop by 2 grs in the 458 B&M loads! Damn, one thing right after another.

And this is the way it has been since Friday! Every Day!

I have a PLAN however, just thought I would be well into that plan by today. There is a possible that I might get started on some .620 terminals tomorrow at some point, or Friday, and almost sure by Saturday!

It is my plan now to be completely finished with all .620 terminals that are currently planned by next week for sure!

Now, as for your wonderful 600 OK. You know, that is a very nice gun! If it did not weigh 13 lbs, and was not 6 ft long, I would really like it better! Nice wood--checkering pattern I like a lot, I might steal that pattern for my stocks. This gun seems to actually work as well! Feed and Function! More than I can say for some others I have seen! But, they were not built on the same action as yours!

I decided to chop only down to 20 inches because of the stock! I looked at 16.5 inches, but that would have looked like one of those "ManLicker" guns, stock to the end of the barrel, and I HATE those things--UGLY with a capitol "U"!!!! So I left some barrel sticking out the end of the stock, just looks better. Only real problem I had was my hacksaw was dull as hell, and you know I can't cut things straight for crap! It was cut at such an angle that I just took a bastard file and sharpened the long side into a point, now the barrel is sorta like a "Bayonet" on the end. Not sure how it will shoot just yet? Did also use that bastard file in some other areas, you know, sorta like giving it a "MeltDown", rounding the sharp edges, taking some metal off here and there. I got a little impatient with the file, and just took it out to the bench grinder for some of this work. Possible I removed a bit much in some spots, but the weight is down to 9.5 lbs now, so that is really good!!!!!!



LMAO

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I may be a little nuts, honestly I think so.

Ya think???

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I decided to chop only down to 20 inches because of the stock! I looked at 16.5 inches, but that would have looked like one of those "ManLicker" guns, stock to the end of the barrel, and I HATE those things--UGLY with a capitol "U"!!!! So I left some barrel sticking out the end of the stock, just looks better. Only real problem I had was my hacksaw was dull as hell, and you know I can't cut things straight for crap! It was cut at such an angle that I just took a bastard file and sharpened the long side into a point, now the barrel is sorta like a "Bayonet" on the end. Not sure how it will shoot just yet? Did also use that bastard file in some other areas, you know, sorta like giving it a "MeltDown", rounding the sharp edges, taking some metal off here and there. I got a little impatient with the file, and just took it out to the bench grinder for some of this work. Possible I removed a bit much in some spots, but the weight is down to 9.5 lbs now, so that is really good!!!!!!



LMAO

Michael

Thar ya go!!!

Maybe a removeable muzzle break bayonette.
Shorten the forend of the stock and add a pistol grip.

Michael,

Are you sure that its the scope thats canted?

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Maybe a removeable muzzle break bayonette.
Shorten the forend of the stock and add a pistol grip.

I don't know Boomy, big bore handguns hurt my hand--I think I will keep the stock on it!



I swear, if you guys knew some of the things I get hung up on, you would for sure think I was nuts, hell I might be, I don't know. Do you know when you are nuts? I wonder? I have wore scopes out taking them on and off because I thought the cross hairs were not right! One of those things that bug me. Seems there are a lot of those kind of things these days.

Anyway, hopefully I am now on track with getting my rifles the way I want them for the trip. There will be some fine tuning, getting actual loads ready. I have been prepping the 458 B&M brass the last couple of days. Even a little anal about primers, conducting some primer tests this morning to make sure all is consistent, took primers out of several different boxes, loaded and tested, all that is good to go. With most of this getting there it will turn me loose to get some terminals done.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Are you sure that its the scope thats canted?

Sam

No Hell I ain't sure of shit! I can tell you they drive me insane. I actually think maybe the cross hairs on the one scope may have come loose on the inside??? I straighten it up, in 5 rds it looks crooked to me! Repeat and repeat again! Same story. I remember some years ago that I had the same issue on a 458 Winchester. Exactly the same. I finally removed the scope completely and shook it, sure enough the damned cross hairs were loose. Took this one off, but can't shake them loose?? So I don't know?

M

Sam

Good thing you were not here to see me take the punch and hammer to the inside of the rings!

I swear I was ready to mix up the JB Weld and coat the inside of the rings!

Michael

Add a hinge to the fore end cap of the normal stock so you can go old school or pistol grip in front and leave the stock profile the same. Would be great as a take down version. Uber short!
Front pistol grip would help with recoil and muzzle rise.

Michael,

Go outside and get some long leaf pine rosin and put the in the rings instead of punching them. I've used rosin for years and a scope won't move with that in the rings. Fingernail polish also works but harder to get out later.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,
Fingernail polish also works but harder to get out later.

Sam

Please Sam. Then we'll have to hear him whine about whether it matches his purse or makes his ass look big.

Paul I'm sure glad I'd finished my coffee or I'd be out in the garage using the air hose trying to clean up the laptop.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,
Fingernail polish also works but harder to get out later.

Sam

Please Sam. Then we'll have to hear him whine about whether it matches his purse or makes his ass look big.

That would depend entirely on the color of the nail polish, I think?

LOL

M

Geez...I turn to page 157, and all I get is nail polish, purses, and big asses??? How did you segue into THAT???? :-)

Poor Biebs,
Always late to the party and under-dressed.

Sounds like a party I won't regret missing!!

You guys... You keep amazing me...

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
You guys... You keep amazing me...

Just the kind of guys I would look forward to being with in deer camp every year

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
You guys... You keep amazing me...

Just the kind of guys I would look forward to being with in deer camp every year

Yep - I feel the same way about my moosehunting buddies in Norway.. Every year we r laughing from arrival in camp until we split up after the hunt.. Just great company. Thats what we live for..

Just the kind of guys I would look forward to being with in deer camp every year [/QUOTE]

If sharing a tent, though, I draw the line at nail polish and purses. I don't like to sleep on my back all night!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Just the kind of guys I would look forward to being with in deer camp every year

If sharing a tent, though, I draw the line at nail polish and purses. I don't like to sleep on my back all night!!! :-)[/QUOTE]


For the record; I HAVE NEVER WORN LIPSTICK OR NAIL POLISH IN CAMP--EVER!!!!!

HEH.......


Well I can tell you this much right now.

If you can't do what you need to do with a 900 CEB BBW#13 Solid at 2160 fps--Then you don't need to be doing that at all!

If you cannot do what you need to do with a 825 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP at 2201 fps--Then you do not need to be doing that!

I know that the "Natives" are getting restless for "Terminal Reports"--I am working on them!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:



For the record; I HAVE NEVER WORN LIPSTICK OR NAIL POLISH IN CAMP--EVER!

Michael

Why did you qualify that statement with "in camp"





SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:



For the record; I HAVE NEVER WORN LIPSTICK OR NAIL POLISH IN CAMP--EVER!

Michael

Why did you qualify that statement with "in camp"





SSR

you beat me to it, I was just about to ask the same thing ...