Congrats to you, Mike on another successful hunt and also for reaching this point with the C.E.B Raptors, and also a big congrats to all those involved.

I beleive this projectile to be a significant development in the recent history of hunting/shooting projectiles and you guys are responsible for making it happen so that we may reap the benefits of its' performance.

Beautiful stick of wood on that .500 you took over Mike !
How did you find the Nikon Monarch scope ?

I note that the Raptor you used in .500 is a 350gn. I hope that the standard non-con in this caliber at 460gn will continue to be available.

Your results with the Raptor have totally satisfied me that I will more than likely only ever mostly require the non-cons as my primary back-up slug.
The petals appear to be doing horrendous damage upon entry, entries clear cut and open as well as the exits allowing constant and copious blood loss/flow from the wound which is what we are all looking for incase we ever come up against an animal that is able to survive the initial damge inflicted by these bullets.

The fact that the remaining portion of the slug continues to penetrate and in most cases provides complete penetration is the perfect scenario.

Kudos again to all those involved with the development and manufacture of these outstanding projectiles.

Capo,
They understand all right. Just didn't seem to enthused with the carnage I sent them without a warning.

Thanks Guys. Yes, ugly photos, not normal I think to post such things, however in the name of science I suppose it's acceptable.

Over all in both animal reactions and terminal study I found these bullets to be more devastating than anything I had worked with before. Penetration was awesome to say the least, and to take into consideration they are extremely light for caliber as well. On these same type animals I have recovered many of the premiums and non premiums I have worked with in the past, Barnes TSX, Swifts, Woodleighs, Hornady--but not one Raptor. I like penetration as you know.

Paul

Yes, that is the little 19 inch 500 MDM and a stick of English by Accurate Innovations. It's darker than most English I have. And 19 inches because I could not let you and Andrew both have shorter 500s than I!

quote:

How did you find the Nikon Monarch scope ?

Let's see if this answers that question, I ordered TWO MORE yesterday!

quote:

I note that the Raptor you used in .500 is a 350gn. I hope that the standard non-con in this caliber at 460gn will continue to be available.

Paul, I am happy to say, the .500 caliber NonCons as you know them no longer EXIST!!!!!



OK OK OK--HEH...... A couple of weeks ago I changed the specs on the cavity---made it wider for Lower Velocity Shear Points. There are 3 I think now NonCons, slightly lighter weight because of the wider cavity--340 for the Super Short---365 For the Levers--450 for the 50 BM and the 500 MDM. Same bullets, just wider cavity for better shear qualities. Have the first shipment coming in this week, will start testing for Low Velocity Shear Points by next week. Improved!

Paul, Yes I think the NonCon will handle 98% of all back up for what you are doing, and will cause a tremendous amount of damage, stopping bad things from happening.

As for sticks of wood, I have those two gorgeous sticks of bastogne from Wes that just come in this week. The rifles should be on the way from SSK this coming week, 50 B&M, and 475 B&M, matching gunkote rifles that will go in the new sticks. This gives me matching rifles within caliber, Stainless and black matte gunkote, at least in 500 MDM--50 B&M--475 B&M-and 458 B&M. Soon will have it in 9.3 B&M as well. All with decent sticks of wood on them. When I get the two matched up will take some photos of those.

Michael

Michael great stuff!

Now what are you saying in this quote? "Non cons as you know them no longer exist"

Sam

quote:

quote:
How did you find the Nikon Monarch scope ?



Let's see if this answers that question, I ordered TWO MORE yesterday!

That, too, is good news.

FTR- the Monarach African is 4.1 to 4.0" eye-relief, which is great.
The Monarch 2-8 (a great little scope for a short rifle) is 4.0" to 3.8" eye-relief at 8 power. Eye-relief has always been plenty on Rigbys loaded to 6000 ftlb, how much more for a 9.3B&M!
But . . .

I'm still going with the Nikon 1.65-5.0-power Slughunters for the 500AccR because I can't see a downside to 5.0" eye-relief throughout in a scope designed for heavy recoil and having clear, bright glass.

Rob thinks 5.0" is unnecessary, but things happen in the field under hunting pressures and if I end up with a bruise on my bicep (improper angle on quick-shouldering rifle) I don't want a cut on the eyebrow as frosting on the cake.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael great stuff!

Now what are you saying in this quote? "Non cons as you know them no longer exist"

Sam

Sam

Pertaining to the cavities on the .500s.

quote:

OK OK OK--HEH...... A couple of weeks ago I changed the specs on the cavity---made it wider for Lower Velocity Shear Points. There are 3 I think now NonCons, slightly lighter weight because of the wider cavity--340 for the Super Short---365 For the Levers--450 for the 50 BM and the 500 MDM. Same bullets, just wider cavity for better shear qualities. Have the first shipment coming in this week, will start testing for Low Velocity Shear Points by next week. Improved!

Tanz

Yes, Like the Nikons a lot! Very Pleased. 9.3 B&M is a little gun, no recoil, about like a 22. 2X8 Monarch perfect fit for 9.3.

I like the 1X4s because they are so much shorter than the 1.65X5 Slug scope. But, I like the slug scope as well and have been shooting it some as well. Zero issues thus far!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael great stuff!

Now what are you saying in this quote? "Non cons as you know them no longer exist"

Sam

Sam

Pertaining to the cavities on the .500s.

quote:

OK OK OK--HEH...... A couple of weeks ago I changed the specs on the cavity---made it wider for Lower Velocity Shear Points. There are 3 I think now NonCons, slightly lighter weight because of the wider cavity--340 for the Super Short---365 For the Levers--450 for the 50 BM and the 500 MDM. Same bullets, just wider cavity for better shear qualities. Have the first shipment coming in this week, will start testing for Low Velocity Shear Points by next week. Improved!

Michael

Oh great! Now I have a bunch of obsolete bullets waiting to be shot at something!!

Appears to me that Weatherby and Lazzeroni better be offering CEBs; NonCons, Solids and Raptors.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael great stuff!

Now what are you saying in this quote? "Non cons as you know them no longer exist"

Sam

Sam

Pertaining to the cavities on the .500s.

quote:

OK OK OK--HEH...... A couple of weeks ago I changed the specs on the cavity---made it wider for Lower Velocity Shear Points. There are 3 I think now NonCons, slightly lighter weight because of the wider cavity--340 for the Super Short---365 For the Levers--450 for the 50 BM and the 500 MDM. Same bullets, just wider cavity for better shear qualities. Have the first shipment coming in this week, will start testing for Low Velocity Shear Points by next week. Improved!

Michael

Oh great! Now I have a bunch of obsolete bullets waiting to be shot at something!!

But at least they are "cutting edge' obsolete--



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael great stuff!

Now what are you saying in this quote? "Non cons as you know them no longer exist"

Sam

Sam

Pertaining to the cavities on the .500s.

quote:

OK OK OK--HEH...... A couple of weeks ago I changed the specs on the cavity---made it wider for Lower Velocity Shear Points. There are 3 I think now NonCons, slightly lighter weight because of the wider cavity--340 for the Super Short---365 For the Levers--450 for the 50 BM and the 500 MDM. Same bullets, just wider cavity for better shear qualities. Have the first shipment coming in this week, will start testing for Low Velocity Shear Points by next week. Improved!

Michael

Oh great! Now I have a bunch of obsolete bullets waiting to be shot at something!!

But at least they are "cutting edge' obsolete--



SSR

Word is getting out.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/cutt...ge_brass_bullets.htm

Something to note.
I think the accurate suffered in their tests because the bore dimensions of a lot of 45-70's are different from say a 458 win mag. I wonder if there should be a different bore dimension for 45-70's. Warnings would be needed. Micro grove rifling could make accuracy wane.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Word is getting out.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/cutt...ge_brass_bullets.htm

An unkown local Bubba .308 WCF shooter at the range had to have a look at my boomer yesterday.
He noted the cap I was wearing with the "Cutting Edge Bullets" logo (I talked Nate out of that at the NRA Show, while Dan was occupied, thanks Nate.).
There was immediate recognition of the up and coming "cutting edge of top quality."
I asked him where he heard of them: "The internet."

Thank you for the article, Boom. And the guys were impressed enough to suggest building a custom rifle around the bullet!

Which brings me back to the real world.

I have a rifle in .510 (500AccR finished and waiting for me in the US) and about 100-day window before I need to load up the rounds for transport. But which bullets will be available before the 100 days end?

We need something with a bit of a BC (.350 would be nice) for shots over 200 yards. Accuracy is essential, of course. And in monometal designs we would prefer 450 grains or under rather than over 500 grains in order to get the velocity up a bit.

CEB only have a 535 grain non-con. It is a great bullet up close but the BC sucks and it will be a bit slow, too. Will CEB have a 380 grain Raptor tipped in time for the summer? I don't really need the boat tail if a shorter flatbase would help stability. A similar sized solid would be needed.

The go-to bullet at the moment might be the GS Custom 450 grain. Its BC is tolerable, .328, but I would prefer without moly plaquing-up a new barrel. Its weight allows good hunting velocity, say 2600 fps. That bullet would be good for 300 yards and should still fully penetrate buffalo up close. It's 300yard winddrift in a 10mph crosswind is 12", for comparison with bullets below.

I'm leary of the lighter Woodleighs. They don't offer much in BC and would probably overexpand at 2600+fps.

Tougher bullets in .510" all end up heavy.

The Swift A-frame is now available in 570 grains. But its BC of .306 produces 18" of winddrift at 300 yards when fired at 2300 fps in a 10mph crosswind!! Not enviable. But the bullet will do its traditional job if it touches the animal.

Barnes has a 570 grain TSX with a .369 BC that is "only" 1.75 inches long! Does the AccR case have enough spare capacity to seat the bullet 1" and still produce 2300fps? Probably, because the long freebore will allow faster powders to be used. While not desired, that might be a second choice after the GSC 450 grainer.
Finally, the big daddy--
Barnes has a 647 grain TSX with a BC of .572 and ONLY 1.89" long. If it could be pushed to 2150 its high BC allows a hunting trajectory out to 300 yards (-18", with 2" sight-in, 160 yard zero) and gets the wind-drift down to 9". That totally shuts down the A-Frame. But that will probably be a singleshot load because of the bullet length. the seating bands are towards the back of the sleek bullet. We would need alot of solids for the magazine.

I suppose that we could also 'single-shot' the CEB 535 with a pinnochio tip. Did those test as stable and accurate?

So I have a strong interest is seeing a CEB .510" developed over the next couple of months. I'll buy 120. (I just don't get to shoot enough)
Looking for:
450 grains or under. 380 grains would be fine, as Michael has shown.
Short, curved-ogive Raptor tip, hollow point.
BC over .300, possibly .350-400.
Similar shaped FN solid.

That makes a nice 4th of July wishlist.

quote:

Paul, I am happy to say, the .500 caliber NonCons as you know them no longer EXIST!!!!!

Holey smokes I near crapped my pants when I first read that response.
My rifle LOVES those nice shiny big holed 460gners.
Awesome velocity, plenty of buffalo accuracy and no pressure and you GONE AND DONE DISCONTINUED THEM ??????
MERCY !!!
Shoulda bought 10,000 when I had the chance.

Paul

You see, each and every time a bullet is "Improved" upon, the older version becomes obsolete in the system so as to avoid confusion in the future. The wider cavity will lower the shear velocity by 200 fps or so, very important. Weight does drop some, but is of no consequence to begin with. Higher velocity shear is enhanced by the wider cavity as well, resulting in increased trauma during the first 12 inches + of penetration.

Obviously the now obsolete versions worked rather well at DG Ranges---I used the 460 BBW#13 NonCon in .500 last year on several buffalo--the new one will work even better with it's wider cavity. But for sure, not to worry, if you insist on the now obsolete version, I have plenty on the bottom shelves here that I can save for you! HEH HEH---I made room this weekend to put in the new .500 stock of NonCons that arrive this week! LOL...............



Tanz

As for .510 I don't see the Raptor being more than 375 grs. Which is more than enough to do about anything you want--no zebra, wildebeast will be able to retain one of them, that is pretty much a given based on the performance of the 350 .500.

There is some news on lighter .510 BBW#13s however! Speaking to Dan on Friday, Sam has ordered a run of .510s---500 gr Solid--465-475 gr NonCon. I think this for our upcoming buffalo trip "Down Under" and his 500 Nitros. I slipped in on that order for a few of them for myself as well!!! HEH HEH....... As we well know one does not any longer need to hold on to traditional SD Values concerning penetration of these bullets.

All big bore tips will be the new design with the HP down the middle. BC??????

M

quote:

As for .510 I don't see the Raptor being more than 375 grs.

When I mentioned a 380 grain Raptor, I was including the weight of the tip. If the Raptor is 375 grains, that means that the brass would be 364 grains. And I would gladly test one on a buffalo since the core outpenetrates any conventional bullet.

quote:

All big bore tips will be the new design with the HP down the middle. BC??????

Yes, hollowpointed tip snapped into HP non-con. Hopefully the tips will snugly fit the non-con. These will be shorter models with curved ogive?

What will the bullet length be and what is the max that can be stuffed into the case mouth? This will affect whether or not these are single-shot or magazine fed. My Ruger has a 3.4" magazine if I remember correctly. Getting 3.5" might be tricky. 500AccR cases are 2.65". that gives .75" to a max of .85" for a nose.

The BC will work itself out, somewhere plus .300, once we have the tipped versions flying.

and I can live with 475 grains, too. Is that with or without Talon Tip?

Tanz

I don't count tips as anything so when I say weights, it's the bullet always and no tip. I pay the tip little attention. Yes, the Raptor out penetrates anything conventional period.

The new tips will fit any Raptor or NonCon within caliber--all cavities are the same, Raptor or NonCon.

Do you know what twist barrel you are putting on the 500 AR? I think most .510s come in at 1:15--my 510 Wells is 1:15. Dan and I might even drop the weight some of the .510 Raptor, 360-365 or so. Or just a few prototypes to see how 375 does in .510 and 1:15. Seating depths of the Raptor and lighter NonCons--????? Don't know just yet myself.

Tips--yes shorter curved ogive like the 9.3 and 416s shown a few pages ago--the .500s I used will be changed some to match the ones shown on 9.3 and 416.


Michael

Thanks, Michael.

All this sounds good and hopefully in time for the "barbeque holiday".

My 500 (.510) is 12" twist, so it should be even more stable.

I do all my calcs with total weights, so 365 grain=376 grain with tip, 375 grain = 386 grain with tip.

And a 375-385 grain bullet will work nicely in the 2750-2800 fps trajectory range, my favorite for Africa in most calibre.

Call me creepy, or just anti-PETA, but I love those pictures of shredded lungs and guts.
Quick kills! No prolonged suffering in the harvest!

I like the idea of just forgetting the weight of the Raptor Tip and sticking to the NonCon base weight of the ESP bullet when "calling it."

BTW, the new tip for .500-cal weighs 7 grains,
if Dan's recollection off the top of his head was correct at the NRA Show.
The obsolete tip was 11 grains by my check.

Speaking of obsolete:
Going from 460-grainer to 450-grainer on DGBR-HP W07?
I trust results will be the same in lethality, but will the "W-number" of the bullet change?
Maybe a "Double-Oh!" designator henceforth: W007
Licensed to kill ...
"450-grain/.500-caliber DGBR-HP W007"

I shot one of those rare (for me) "singularity groups" yesterday at the range with the 460-grain W07:


... from the latest "CEB 49-10 Loads" thread ...
Compensating errors came together nicely for me on that one,
though it is not my best 3-shot group of all time.
I do have a better one.

RIP

quote:

Speaking of obsolete:
Going from 460-grainer to 450-grainer on DGBR-HP W07?
I trust results will be the same in lethality, but will the "W-number" of the bullet change?

Correct! Number will change--to what I don't know yet--Will find out this week when the new shipment comes--15 boxes of each of the new NonCons--I think there is 3 of them currently in .500. Super Short 340 or so--Lever 365--and the 450 for the big stuff. All numbers will change so there is never a mix up down the road while some of the older obsolete ones lurk about.

And that is the way they are supposed to shoot too--your target far Right! Every single time they will do that here, regardless of rifle or cartridge--problem is, I don't do that every single time myself! I have a number of those sort of targets with these bullets--When I do my part!

This is why it is SO EASY to tell when something is not just right! The 350 ESP Raptor will shoot every bit as good as your target with the 460s! But NOT THE 400!!!!!

Those groups with the 400 at 1 inch and .8 inch, not bad if you were looking at a conventional bullet and it was consistent. Not acceptable for a Raptor or BBW#13. While they may look like they are somewhat stable, put into the test medium stability would show up quickly I am sure.

Very Fine Shooting!

Michael

Michael, how has the accuracy been in your 45-70's?
Any thoughts on bore rider dimensions for lever guns?

Michael,

I am going to be helping a friend develop loads for his new 458Lott. He has stated it will only be used as a stopper, which would normally have lead me to think solid, but in lieu of the most recent performance of NonCons what bullet weight do you believe will inflict more trama-470gr or 420gr-thus being a better stopper?

And before any body starts pissin' about shot placement(which somebody always does)I have already made note of being explicit in that area.

Thanks,
Andy

drewhenrynt:

Are the .458 DGBR-HP "Nitro Express" bullets .457" diameter to protect antique double rifles,
whereas the other .458 DGBR-HP bullets are full .458 diameter?

As you know, there is a vast array of weights in .458 and .457 diameter HP's and solids listed at the CEB website.

One could even get a .458/450-grain Solid and a .457/450-grain NonCon:
Who knows, since the HP would be longer in that combo (same weight),
it might shoot to same POI with the same charge,
since the .001" smaller diameter would let off the pressure caused by the lesser case capacity,
if both are loaded to same COL?

Pending opinion from Doc M:
I would recommend the 450-grainer Solid, or a 450-grain or lesser weight HP-NonCon (they are longer for weight),
for the traditional 1:14" twist of most .458 Lott rifles.

I know they work OK in 1:10" twist.
Here is the "busiest" target picture of all time, according to Mike Jines.
Add some velocity to this with a .458 Lott:



Doc M,
I know what you mean about doing your part in shooting groups. I muffed the group above for sure!
Can't depend on the bullet to shoot itself, but "smart bullets " are in the pipeline at CEB, surely, cutting edge as they are.

Tan,

If you'd gone with RIP's .500 rather than with Jeffe's .510 I could hook you up with some really awesome 430gr CEB MTH bullets that would meet your needs.

M77 Ruger actions aren't as easy as a M98 Mauser actions to open up for a longer COAL...so unless your gunsmith has already opened your M77 for a longer length you're likely limited to the current internal magazine length.

I recommend that you contact Dan Smitchko directly with your needs and concerns...I'm positive that he'll help you. At a minimum he can work with you regarding the Talon Tipped ESP Raptors functioning properly from your magazine.

Personally...if you know someone you could split a 250 bullet order with...I'd have Dan design you a new .510 caliber MTH bullet using a cross between my .500 caliber MTH bullet and the .416 350gr MTH V-11 bullet to properly fit within your M77 magazine and the 2.65" .500 AccRel case length.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael, how has the accuracy been in your 45-70's?
Any thoughts on bore rider dimensions for lever guns?

While I have used some of the 45/70s for test work I never really paid much attention to accuracy. Never saw any issues, but don't recall shooting specifically for that. I can't see where there would be any issues at all with the lever guns. Never heard anyone mention a problem. Since I do not intend to use a 45/70 for anything anymore I have not put a lot of effort there. Shooting any of my 50 B&M Alaskans they shoot their best with BBW#13s.


Andy! Damn you ask hard questions! 458 Lott Stopper! What are we Stopping? Buffalo? Elephant? Hippo? Bears? Lion/Leopard? Yeah--I know, all of the above! Whatever happens to be needing Stopping at the moment! For everything with the exception of ELEPHANT I would use the 450 BBW#13 NonCon---the NE version-that .457 is fine, never know it and makes no difference in anything, maybe a tad less pressure is all. I would however match that up with the 480 Solid, its match for those moments that Ele might make an appearance. I have some load data on the B&M site for 458 Lott that I did last year--not extensive like the B&Ms, but some small amount of data I think with 3 powders in 458 Win and 458 Lott. Not max nor minimum data. Located at News/Events Dec 2011 here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html

Oh, and my B&Ms are 1:14--ZERO ISSUES. One does not have issues with the BBW#13s like with the Raptors as for stability.

RIP--Yes, I too have several targets like this last one with the 458 B&M! If you just had not got greedy with that last round! HEH......... "Smart Bullets", laser guided perhaps--still working on that! Looking for some cheap technology we can put in the nose cavity, have not found it yet!


Michael

I saw a post upstairs a few days ago about How Far is Too Far? Actually good thread, I did not read much of it, but it did cause me to think about myself somewhat and I have a new "Range Limitation" on myself.


"If I don't feel the blood splatter on my face when I shoot, its too far!"


My new Rule of Thumb!

Michael

I was pontificating on if the shallow rifling of the lever guns was not getting premium accuracy because the bullet was riding on the bands and not the shaft. I think testing would need to be done to see how the accuracy is on the shallow rifling. I know lever guns are for up close in the 45-70 but it might make a difference shooting out to 200 yards. Might be worth talking to CEB.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I saw a post upstairs a few days ago about How Far is Too Far? Actually good thread, I did not read much of it, but it did cause me to think about myself somewhat and I have a new "Range Limitation" on myself.


"If I don't feel the blood splatter on my face when I shoot, its too far!"


My new Rule of Thumb!

Michael

While I believe 'how far is to far' is a personal thing between the shooter and the shootee. That said, my personal 'how far is to far' it is individual shot defendant upon my ability to deliver a clean killing shot at a distance that I've proven are within my ability to so so. Anything outside that distance - whether 15yds or 400yds - is 'to far'.

I liked how he tested the petal dispersion in OSB plywood. Shows you the power of the petals.

This was from the Chuck Hawks Link I posed yesterday.

The name "Cutting Edge Bullets" (http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/) is appropriate to their products in more ways than one. Every bullet they make is cut on computer numeric lathes. This process gives them the ability to make bullets that could not be made by standard bullet manufacturing processes. Cutting Edge bullets are either solid copper or solid brass.

The bullet bodies are actually undersize. The bullet body is machined to land diameter, intended to ride on the lands of the rifling. Either at the back or the center of the bullet there are one or more ridges that are sized to the groove diameter. The ridges engage the grooves of the rifling and provide a gas seal. This idea was adopted from WWII battleship guns, which had approximately quarter inch wide and quarter inch deep rifling in the barrels, making it impossible for a steel jacketed 16” projectile to engage the rifling. Thus, at the back of the projectile there was a large copper band that engaged the deep rifling, provided the gas seal and imparted spin to the projectile. Cutting Edge has taken this idea and adapted it for our rifles by their design and manufacturing techniques.

Their solid copper series include three different designs: Matched Tactical Hunting (MTH), Matched Tactical (MTAC) and Flat Base Hunting (FBH-HP). The MTH are available in calibers from .22 through .50 BMG. The MTAC are available in 6mm through .50 BMG. All are spitzer-type bullets. We will be reviewing the copper series bullets at a later date.

Their solid brass series include the Dangerous Game Brass (DGBR), Dangerous Game Brass Hollow Point (DGBR-HP) and the ESP Raptor. The DGBR is available in .22 through .62 calibers. The other two are available in .22 through .50 BMG calibers. The brass series features what Cutting Edge Bullets calls “The BBW #13 Nose Profile,” which is a blunt-nose bullet with a 13 degree taper.

The ESP Raptor bullet is a combination of the DGBR and the DGBR-HP, with the rifling engagement ridges in the center of the bullet and one end of the bullet a hollow point and the other end solid. Both ends have the 13 degree taper. Consequently, the bullet can be loaded with either end forward, as a hollow point or as a solid point. Either way, it is a boat-tail.

The hollow point is computer numeric control machined into the tip of the bullet. It is unlike any hollow point available anywhere else. It is designed so that on impact, six segments separate from the main body of the bullet to take their own paths. In addition, for the brass hollow points, there are plastic tips available that snap into the hollow points, making them plastic-tipped spitzer boat-tails.

The brass bullets we received from Cutting Edge Bullets for testing were 450 grain Dangerous Game Brass (DGBR) in .458 caliber (2012 MSRP $29.28 for 18 bullets); 280 grain DGBR in 9.3mm caliber (2012 MSRP $60.29 for 50 bullets) and 255 grain Dangerous Game Brass - Hollow Point (DGBR-HP) in 9.3mm (2012 MSRP $74.44 for 50 bullets).

The rifles we used in testing these bullets were a Browning 1885 High Wall in .45-70 with a Redfield 2¾ power wide view scope and a CZ 550 American Safari Express in 9.3x62mm with a Weaver Super Slam 1.5x6x30mm scope. These rifles have proven to be accurate and reliable with several different bullets.

It should be emphasized that Cutting Edge bullets are not suitable for every caliber and every load. In requesting bullets for testing, I did not do enough homework and mistakenly requested bullets that could not be loaded to their full potential in the .45-70 rifle. The load I have developed for the .45-70 is a 350 grain flat base moly-coated Barnes X-Bullet with 52 grains of IMR3031 at 1825 feet per second (fps). The 450 grain DGBR bullet from Cutting Edge Bullets is long at 1.412 inches, compared to a 500 grain lead bullet at 1.20 inches. Loading the .45-70 to an overall cartridge length of 2.8 inches meant that the Cutting Edge bullet seats into the cartridge over 0.2 inches deeper than normal. This left only enough room in the case for 46.5 grains of IMR3031, solidly compressed, yielding a muzzle velocity of 1590 fps. That is the .45-70 load we used in our testing. The DGBR bullets are designed for deep penetration and should be driven at as high a muzzle velocity as possible. The DGBR 450 grain .458 bullets would be more suitable for use in .458 Winchester Magnum rifles. This problem could arise in other calibers, so do your homework before ordering.

Guns and Shooting Online staffers Chuck Hawks, Jim Fleck, Gordon Landers and I shot the .45-70 for record from the bench rest, using a Caldwell Lead Sled. At 100 yards, our three shot groups with the 450 grain DGBR bullets were good: Jim shot a 2” group, Chuck shot 1-5/8” and I shot a 1-1/8”, which is about the same size group I shoot with the 350 grain X-Bullet. With the 9.3x62mm CZ and the DGBR-HP 255 grain bullet, Chuck shot a 1-½” three shot group, Gordon's best group measured 1-3/8” and mine measured 1”.

The DGBR-HP bullets will accept plastic ballistic tips which improve the ballistic coefficient of the bullet. I did testing over the chronograph and at 200 yards with plastic-tipped DGBR hollow points and the DGBR solids. The average muzzle velocity of the hollow points was 2431 fps and the muzzle velocity for the DGBR solids was 2418 fps. The hollow points with no ballistic tips shot groups averaging 2-½”. The DGBR hollow points with ballistic tips shot groups averaging 2-1/8”. The DGBR solids shot groups averaging 2-3/8”.

Cutting Edge Bullets make two plastic tips that can be used in their hollow points. One is a full spitzer (generally suitable for use only in single shot rifles, due to the increased bullet length) and the other is a shortened, semi-spitzer shape intended for use in repeating rifles. In the 9.3x62, both tips made the overall length of the bullets too long to feed in the magazine. If the plastic tips are to be used, the bullets must be seated deeper into the case. In the 9.3x62, I didn’t feel the plastic tips improved the trajectory enough to warrant using them. They may be more beneficial with longer range calibers, such as .270 Winchester.

To test the performance of the DGBR-HP, I used a medium consisting of ½ inch layers of oriented strand board (OSB). I can stack these boards up in any number of layers and after firing through them the layers can be separated to see the trajectories of each segment of the hollow point bullets. After firing four rounds into OSB at 100 yards, I found that DGBR-HP bullets functioned exactly as claimed. I recovered the first segment in the 4th layer and all six segments had separated by the 7th layer, while the center core exited out the back of 12 layers. This performance was consistent with all four shots.

Cutting Edge bullets are intended for hunting; they are not plinking bullets. They are expensive, but technologically advanced. Even though homogenous (usually copper or gilding metal) bullets are available from other companies, Cutting Edge Bullets has taken their solid brass bullets to the next level. The bullets function so well that I could see building a custom chambered rifle around them, especially a medium or big bore safari rifle in 9.3mm, .375, .416 or .458.

Next question..............How large in diameter can we expect to see Raptors?

I have no plans for using light for caliber bullets with my 600. Ok maybe "crayola" tips and I might experiment with Al.

That gun's main purpose other than making my friends youtube stars is removing the fight from 4-legged unfriendlies in the rudest manner possible!

However, a tipped .416/320gr Raptor would be AWESOME! I say .416 because I have one in the works and am already getting jittery about the possibilities of tipped 325gr at insane velocity.

Speaking of insane I have begun working up 130gr .308 Raptor loads in a 300RUM. I saw the 100gr and the drool has wrecked the keyboard. We'll see how long the barrel holds up.

Andy

Think über fast and light.
250 grain 416
500 grain 620
Those should be flying quisinarts at top speeds.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Think über fast and light.
250 grain 416
500 grain 620
Those should be flying quisinarts at top speeds.

Boomer--just what are you going to hunt with 3275 fps but only a .275 BC?

Speed is for flat trajectory, but flat trajectory needs a good BC when over 300 yards. I would much prefer a Raptor in the 320 grain range if it had a +.400 BC. You can still load it to 2900 fps in a Rigby. You will give up 2" at 400 yards to the 3300fps thing, but you will resist winddrift and hit with considerable more energy and momentum. They count, too.

Best option for you might be a tipped non con for long range. At top velocities that light of a Raptor should be functional out to 500 yards. If you know you are hunting at 500 yards have a 200 yard zero and know the flight path. My guess is a lot of PG is under 300 yards and 400 would be a long shot. Assuming a 300 yard range and 150 yard zero the flight path won't be too much of a rainbow.

Boomstick
I agree with everything you say, I just don't see how a 250 grain Raptor is an improvement over a 320 grainer in .416.

-- the Tanz stalls for time ---

Yes, a 250 grain Raptor in .416 would have the new MINIMUM SecDensity of .200. But why go absolute minimum?

--Tanz reconsiders--

Then again, maybe we haven't yet seen what a Raptor core will do when transversing an animal with a 3000 fps IMPACT on a buffalo at 100-yard or less.

I sure hope they fly straight and stable, because I can't test them in the US before travelling to TZ. Might be a good use of 6000 ftlbs in an "all-purpose" diameter.

With a 3k impact velocity it would shred everything within the first 3 feet of penetration.
It would win the vicious bullet award.

Well, a 250 Raptor could be loaded to 3300 fps without a problem in 416 Rigby--
BUT I just did a stability check for our 16.5" twist Rigbys: Stab.Fac. is 1.43, assuming a relatively short Raptor of 1.5" bullet length.

That's the kind of stability factor that we see down in the little bullets like 22-27 calibre, not bigger bores. It SHOULD fly right, but it would be reassuring if someone would be able to test these in the US in a CZ-original-barrel 416 Rigby first. Also, since I would replace current 350 grain bullets in situ with these new ones, but without the option of adding more of the same powder, I might only be able to get 3200-3250 fps. Do you suppose the buffalo would notice?

A 275 grain 416 with ogive tip would be good. Basically a scaled up 9,3 or 375 raptor. You could extrapolate the damage the 9,3 did with a larger diameter and 300 to 400 more fps impact velocity.

Maybe a call into CEB to see what the target weight for the 416 would be. My guess is between 250 and 275 grains and ogive talon tip.