Well these are for the new 475 B&M Super Short! The 1.65 inch case, fits in Win M70 WSSM actions, 16 inch barrels, 6.25 lbs! With these bullets, the 475 Super Short should be as successful as the 50 B&M and the 458 B&M. These bullets should bring the cartridge to levels far beyond what would be normally possible.

Not only these, but North Fork is working on a solid and expanding cup point versions for the 475 Super Short as well.

Very possible these can also breath some new life into a lifeless caliber!!!!!!!!







Also do take note, these are designed specifically for the 475 B&M Super Short, no compromise to fit in lever guns at all. Nose to mouth designed for bolt guns!

Michael

Yes, you heard me correctly above---I consider .474 caliber a lifeless caliber! Look at it, how many cartridges are out there in .474 caliber? 470 Nitro being most popular I would think, limited to doubles and singles. How about 470 Capstick? Dare say the most popular in bolt guns. Yes, a few more for sure, some much bigger in capacity, 470 Mobogo? Comes to mind. Probably best of show is Jeffes 470 AR, a truly capable cartridge and practical. But take a look at the bullet selection? What is available? 500 this and that, and that's about it. No heavier, no lighter for other uses. Just a stagnate caliber, same old same forever. Yes, there are those turnbull things too, which breaths some life in the lever guns. Still stagnate as far as I am concerned.

This is one reason I held off of doing a 475 B&M so long, I had ugly experiences with my Capsticks, bullet selection awful or lacking. Not even sure that I think .474 is a very capable caliber over anything else, 458 or .500 or .510. It might be because of the bullets available, or who knows, or it could be just my experience with the Capsticks that leads me to not be so impressed?

I have two rifles now, 475 Super Short and 475 B&M. No dies yet, so I have not started load development of course, but was not in much of a hurry as 500 gr bullets are too heavy to be optimum in the 475 B&M, and of course are out of the question for the Super SHort version. But now, looking at these new CEB BBW#13s and matching NonCons, I am beginning to get a little excited about these cartridges and rifles. Like the 458 B&M the 475 B&M is going to be at it's best with 450 solids, and this matching 420 NonCon should be a hammer. Things are looking up for .474 caliber, no doubt about it.





Michael

Those .474 bullets will all work in the 470NE and will be great low recoil hunting bullets for thin skinned game. I'm sure those 420 non cons would be good for buffalo also.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
while it's not all about inches ...
Michael

Where is your mind this morning?

Is it morning already
Got home a bit after 4 - days and nights don't mean much to me.

Trying to screw up enough energy and courage to trapse upstate to shoot the DR. I've "cranked up the volume" a bit with the these reloads and am interested in how they shoot out of my 13lb 600NE.

I must say Michael,you and Sam along with Dan at CEB have really done good with these #13s.

quote:

Trying to screw up enough energy and courage to trapse upstate to shoot the DR. I've "cranked up the volume" a bit with the these reloads and am interested in how they shoot out of my 13lb 600NE.

Keep us posted if you do! Inquiring minds want to know!

quote:

Those .474 bullets will all work in the 470NE and will be great low recoil hunting bullets for thin skinned game. I'm sure those 420 non cons would be good for buffalo also.

Hey, take the lighter 350/320 let them smoke through the 475 B&M for everything short of buffalo, then take the 450/420s when doing serious work.

I may end up liking these 475s?

M

While talking about light bullets, some of you on this thread may help me with a load for my wife.

What would be a 'starting load' for a
416 Rigby, Norma brass, Fed 215M primer
Accurate 3100 powder
and 300 grain Barnes TSX?

We will probably stick with the starting load.

We don't have a 338 anymore in Tanzania so the little lady is going to step up to a 416 Rigby.
If the load only does 2500-2600 fps with 300 grains, that's fine.
the important thing is a full-burning, safe, non-detonating load.

Why Acc 3100? Because we have quite a few surplus loads on site with that powder. We just need to open them up, remove powder and replace the bullet.

Thanks for help.

PM sent to help make room on shelf.

Sasquatch

Those 470 bullets could be good for the 470 and 475 Turnbull carts. I'm sure the 470 NE crowd would love to shoot out to 200 yards with those lighter bullets on baboons ect.

quote:

The 900 BBW#13 and it's matching 825 NonCon have impressed me. Seriously impressed.

Yeah, I'm pretty much sold on Cutting Edge bullets based on the number of tests I've seen here. I might have expected fifty-something for penetration of the 900 grain 600's, but 64 inches????

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Those 470 bullets could be good for the 470 and 475 Turnbull carts. I'm sure the 470 NE crowd would love to shoot out to 200 yards with those lighter bullets on baboons ect.

Boomy

I designed the .474s to work in the B&Ms. The nose is too long for turnbull in the lever guns. He will have to look elsewhere.

It will be interesting how the lighter bullets work in the doubles??? Sam and I will look at that after his busy season, and when I return.


Glenn

As you can see from my shelves I am busy converting over to CEB and North Fork all the way. Seems the other stuff is just, "dated".

Been quite an evolution of sorts here the last 6 years. All my normal big bore rifles, 458 Lott, 458 Winchester, 470s, 416 Remingtons and Rigbys, 510 Wells, and who can recall what else, all of them, "Dinosaurs", extinct, put away. About the only use any of these get anymore is to do test work with, and of course to compare to the B&M rifles. Pretty easy for folks to make up their mind what they would rather carry when you hand them one dinosaur, and a B&M. The dinosaur gets put away pretty quickly.

Talk about evolution of bullets--It's all right here in these 155 pages! Jesus, I only thought I knew something when we started this thread, been a hell of a learning experience, and we are not finished yet! Lot's of work left to do!

Yes, I think "Evolution" would be the proper term!

Michael

Just returned from the Warwarsing area of Upstate NY. Took my 9 year old daughter, a Remington Nylon 66 Mohawk (that is my brother's from chilhood), my svelt V-C 600 and a variety of loads topped by CEB #13s.

She shot a smiley face of 8 shots (cool, I thought) in the bullseye and then threw another 100 rounds mostly into the red.

I learned that the 900 grain CEB #13s don't care what the velocity is, they shoot into 1.25" at 75 yards whether velocity is 1915fps or 2,113fps.

Also learned that some old WR 600NE shells with very round-tipped 900 grain solids I bought from Corbin average 2,011fps over the Oehler 35P. They too shot into less than 1.5" at 75 yards.

Best part was seeing my daughter enjoy herself and then go exploring throuh the woods overturning rocks and fallen trees in search of crawling things. Found plenty but no snakes (her favorite) unfortunately.

I'll put this on the DR Forum too ...

quote:

Talk about evolution of bullets--It's all right here in these 155 pages! Jesus, I only thought I knew something when we started this thread, been a hell of a learning experience, and we are not finished yet! Lot's of work left to do!

Yes, I think "Evolution" would be the proper term!

Most definitely "Evolution" is the proper term! Much work has been accomplished in these 155 pages in slightly less than 18-months. What pray tell will the next 18-months will bring?

It will be most difficult to improve upon the nose profile of the BBW #13 bullets. The solids are pretty well settled based upon whether the bullet is destined for a bolt gun or DR. Perhaps further tweaking of the driving bands? Perhaps the NonCons can be further tweaked here and there to maximize their performance when the synthetic spitzer nose inserts become available and their impact upon petal separation is factored in.

And what changes will NF, S&H, and GSC bring us?

The bullets seem about perfect. I think a four petal non con would be worth a test or two. It seems to shear 4 petals over 6 might be better for lower velocities along with an outer v shaped sheer ring.

CCMDoc,

That sounds great that your 600NE double loves the BBW#13s. Now go shoot that elephant!

OH and I forgot to ask how was the recoil with all that heavy stuff out of the stock?

Sam

"I have tasked Corbin to get over a visit with you???"

You shoulda maybe warned us you were sending someone with credentials...the man right nearly sold us a pistol while he was there!!!

For all interested, a few pics of Saturday at the NRA Pittsburgh...overall a grueling, tiring, heap of fun with likeminded freedom lovers.

http://aigunstocks.com/2011/04/30/random-nra-moments/

A few sorta pretty gunstocks thrown in too!

SB

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CCMDoc,

That sounds great that your 600NE double loves the BBW#13s. Now go shoot that elephant!

OH and I forgot to ask how was the recoil with all that heavy stuff out of the stock?

Sam

Yes it does and I hope to do just that!

Recoil - well it was more but then again, 2 pounds lighter plus a 900 grain bullet going 300fps faster than the last time ...

Not sure which contributed more but either way it wasn't bad after 10 rounds and barrels too hot to hold.

My only disappointment occurred when a branch fell out of a tree right onto the double - leaving three nearly parallel scratchs in the stock.

CCM Doc-

Now you can quit worring about the new gun, just like the first scatch on a new car.



SSR

quote:

I learned that the 900 grain CEB #13s don't care what the velocity is, they shoot into 1.25" at 75 yards whether velocity is 1915fps or 2,113fps.

Extremely good news to hear! Pick the load--hopefully some more test work on my end will help you decide what velocity is optimum, and you are RTG (Ready To Go). Excellent.

quote:

My only disappointment occurred when a branch fell out of a tree right onto the double - leaving three nearly parallel scratchs in the stock. Mad

I told you that you would shoot the tree down with the 900 BBW#13s, try to get out of the way before it falls next time--
Sorry about the scratch on the rifle, but at least it's not "NIB" anymore, and you are adding character!

quote:

Perhaps the NonCons can be further tweaked here and there to maximize their performance when the synthetic spitzer nose inserts become available and their impact upon petal separation is factored in.

Jimmy
AN area I am interested in for sure. I don't know what the next 18 months might bring us? But the work will not cease. Now the next 4-5 months are going to be extremely interesting to me because of the field work that is getting ready to start. In fact, my buddy is in Namibia right now for several variety of plains game. He has nothing with him except his 416 B&M and the 325 BBW#13 NonCons at 2530 fps. I will start getting reports from him soon on this, he has my sat phone and is supposed to keep me updated. So it's getting ready to start rolling in, "Field Reports"

Another that I think is either there, on the way, or close to leaving is our test bud Mike. He is on buffalo again I believe so field reports hopefully will be coming back soon on his work.

Many others are going to be in the field soon as well. Myself included on a major mission. Of course testing all we have so far. One that I am very interested in looking at is the deep cavity lion bullet on some thin skinned game, as opposed to the normal cavity. Trauma inflicted, and the dispersal of blades within the body cavity on larger animals, wildebeast and such.

Lot's of things to investigate left.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Stockbroker:
"I have tasked Corbin to get over a visit with you???"

You shoulda maybe warned us you were sending someone with credentials...the man right nearly sold us a pistol while he was there!!!

For all interested, a few pics of Saturday at the NRA Pittsburgh...overall a grueling, tiring, heap of fun with likeminded freedom lovers.

http://aigunstocks.com/2011/04/30/random-nra-moments/

A few sorta pretty gunstocks thrown in too!

SB

You mean this bunch of chaps!!!! Corbin says he was messing with you some eh? LOL...... Yes, had Corbin on a mission!




I stole this photo from the AI blog with you a Brian, and your 458 B&M. Shows the rifle a bit better.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
CCM Doc-

Now you can quit worring about the new gun, just like the first scatch on a new car.



SSR

Isn't that the truth?

When it happened, not a peep - had to take the high road as an example for my daughter's sake and my blood pressure.
Put everything away and the "adventure" as my daughter calls any exploration through any patch of woods, began.

I'll simply make up a good story about it ...
"I was thankful for the quality of the wood and weight of the gun as I hefted it high above the ancient bosses and swung mightily for the base of the skull as the Cape buffalo charged ... He hadc hosen a good way to die ..."

Next up will be a thorough thrashing of the Non-Cons. On the drive back home, I thought about the Non-Cons and vaguely remembered some rule about such design and NJ law ...

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Next up will be a thorough thrashing of the Non-Cons. On the drive back home, I thought about the Non-Cons and vaguely remembered some rule about such design and NJ law ...

Just checked and am OK.
N.J.S.A 26:39-6f exempts the use of HP for hunting and target practice.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Next up will be a thorough thrashing of the Non-Cons. On the drive back home, I thought about the Non-Cons and vaguely remembered some rule about such design and NJ law ...

Just checked and am OK.
N.J.S.A 26:39-6f exempts the use of HP for hunting and target practice.

Darn it there for a minute I was hoping you would have to move to Texas!



SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

Darn it there for a minute I was hoping you would have to move to Texas!



SSR

I would be honored. I have been to Texas ... once. My wife and I were visiting with a friend in Kileen about 20 years ago.

Nice to see Corbin enjoying himself. He has been very helpful to me, starting way back with advice on getting started with cast bullets for the .395, through a most recent couple of .338 Lapua Improved cartridge cases that helped me along with the .500/.338 Lapua Magnum.


CCMDoc:
You helped me complete my Jonah Hex comic book collection, thank you very much.
I ended up with three copies of that needed issue from the 1970s.

Three parallel scratches on the 600 NE double rifle stock?
I feel your pain!
Could you pass it off as a leopard or lion claw swipe from when you were ambushed in the tall grass?
You know, on that short-notice PAC patrol with PH, looking for that maneater terrorizing the local village?

Texas: Love it. Have spent most of a year there during 8 years of Air Force days, mostly in 2 month stints around San Antonio, once in Wichita falls ...
... Inner-tube float tripping on the Guadalupe River near New Braunfels, TX, with a beer cooler in another inner-tube roped to mine,
topless hippie girls sun bathing on the banks as I floated by ...
Weekend runs to the Gulf shore at Corpus Christi to cook shrimp and camp out of the car on the beach ...
My son was conceived in a La Quinta Inn in San Antonio.
I always had great times in Texas. Make this flag a Lone Star:

Michael,

Have you ever thought of developing a saboted bullet for 600? You could use the small cavity .375 bullets for the core!

Andy

quote:

Jonah Hex

My small assistant and I love the movie!!!!

quote:

Three parallel scratches on the 600 NE double rifle stock?
I feel your pain!
Could you pass it off as a leopard or lion claw swipe from when you were ambushed in the tall grass?
You know, on that short-notice PAC patrol with PH, looking for that maneater terrorizing the local village?

Hey I will back that up! LOL...... I told him just a week or so ago not to shoot the damned tree again, it would fall on him! What did it do?

quote:

Have you ever thought of developing a saboted bullet for 600? You could use the small cavity .375 bullets for the core!

Nahh, never occurred to me, but there are many things I don't think of as well! That's what makes this group of chaps great, lot's of ideas, some good, some not, but still all considered..........


I spent the entire weekend doing actual work! Inputting data for our new payroll program--not fun, not finished, but getting closer to the update! Still working on it today. But I may sneak off to the lab to take some photos, sort bullets, or just lock the door for a couple minutes to gather my sanity back!!!!!


M

CCMDoc,

Sorry to hear you scratched your stock! Once the first one is in then you can hunt with it without worries. Just don't let a tracker carry it for you. Did those tree limbs fall because of the concussion from the blast or did you double it and let it fly through the air and don't want to admit it! HA HA just joking! Those big guns are pussy cats!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Three parallel scratches on the 600 NE double rifle stock?
I feel your pain!
Could you pass it off as a leopard or lion claw swipe from when you were ambushed in the tall grass?
You know, on that short-notice PAC patrol with PH, looking for that maneater terrorizing the local village?

Yeah ... I like your story better than mine - but it can't be a lion - I'd have LEDVM on my case for denying the lion a meal ...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael458:
I told him just a week or so ago not to shoot the damned tree again, it would fall on him!

THAT tree has a nice cantaloupe-sized hole in the middle. The tree responsible had a long-dead limb caught up in its branches and either the wind, my "wind" or the concussion from the 600 brought it down upon the double as it lay on its open case when my daughter and I walked up to see the target.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Sorry to hear you scratched your stock! Once the first one is in then you can hunt with it without worries. Just don't let a tracker carry it for you. Did those tree limbs fall because of the concussion from the blast or did you double it and let it fly through the air and don't want to admit it!

I am sorry too
As far as it flying out of my hands, that's the reason I brought my 9 year old, 52" 52lb daughter. Her job was to catch first the gun, then me - and she would never let the gun hit the ground ...

Paul, it's like buying a brand new pickup. The best thing to do it just throw a cement block into the bed, drive around a bit, and be done with it! Now it's ready to use.

Hey Michael! ONE-FIFTY-SIX !!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Hey Michael! ONE-FIFTY-SIX !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was hoping to get started on some testing this week, but have been totally tied up in a new payroll program, helping my blockhead accountant. I worked and input data all weekend long, and still working on it today as well! Along with a million other things at the same time.. Cutting into my shooting time here, and I don't like that too much!

I suppose;

We will Endeavor to Persevere!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Tanzan

Take note this is the flat nose HP 6 bladed version made for the 45/70. These are older and not TSX. Not sure if they are making TSX in this for the 45/70 or if it is still without bands? I have not bought any in years for this. The 458 B&M has taken place of nearly all .458 caliber guns.

I must edit. These are older X versions I am pretty sure, I don't think these are TSX. I have TSX on the shelves however.



I have an excellent attitude towards the Non Cons, including Barnes. If the petals hang on, fine, if they shed, fine, either way, superb performance and I see no down side either way.

I have TSX on the shelves, but thanks. It's a mainstay and will be excellent for the upcoming 458 Super Short. Also I have some of the new 300 gr blue tipped TSX delivered today, along with a new silver ballistic tip 300 gr 458. We will test next week both of these, and maybe I throw in some 300 TSX in the lott and 458 B&M for retest.

Michael

Checking back in the thread I found sound 300 grainers in .458" that seemed to penetrate pretty well. Does anyone remember or know if the blue-Tipped TSX 458 "SOCOM" has been tested here?

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Paul, it's like buying a brand new pickup. The best thing to do it just throw a cement block into the bed, drive around a bit, and be done with it! Now it's ready to use.

amen!

Tanz

quote:

Checking back in the thread I found sound 300 grainers in .458" that seemed to penetrate pretty well. Does anyone remember or know if the blue-Tipped TSX 458 "SOCOM" has been tested here?

I just checked inventory--I have a box of these. Can't recall why exactly, and I don't recall ever loading any or testing them. I will see if I can get that worked into the upcoming schedule, if I don't forget!


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Tanz

quote:

Checking back in the thread I found sound 300 grainers in .458" that seemed to penetrate pretty well. Does anyone remember or know if the blue-Tipped TSX 458 "SOCOM" has been tested here?

I just checked inventory--I have a box of these. Can't recall why exactly, and I don't recall ever loading any or testing them. I will see if I can get that worked into the upcoming schedule, if I don't forget!


Michael

Thanks. It would be good to know it's length. And I thought that it might prove useful as Sam or Cutting Edge consider polymer tips on the non-cons.

Jim, I, and maybe a few others like to dream about 'reaching out and touching a critter--hard'.

One incongruity remains on this 300 grain blue-tip. The BC is published as .236. That is almost certainly a mistake. Their flat-base hollow-point with a significant meplat is listed as .234 BC. There is no way that a boattail and smooth-tipped bullet is going to remain about the same.

anyway, cutting edge can come up with a nice BC design for the non-cons. There is no need to keep a 13 degree angle on the hollow point, the meplat and angle only play a role for the solids. The hollow-points expand and explode, so they can be put into whatever is the most aerodynamic.

my two shillings.

Hi All,
I'm looking forward to the reduced load 600OK tests.
There is a fair chance that I can use the information from it to judge these shotgun slugs.
http://www.europeancartridgeun...d.com/en/usslug.html
62 caliber 570 700 and 900 grains

Are you even allowed to use a smooth bore shotgun for DG?

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Hi All,
I'm looking forward to the reduced load 600OK tests.
...

Are you even allowed to use a smooth bore shotgun for DG?

Cheers, John

A lot of locals have been boiling up birdshot and re-filling and sealing shotshells for a century with some success. They can get into big trouble, though, when they mess with ele's.

All my information is heresay, though, since we made sure that former practitioners got ahold of accurate rifles with good ammunition when we hunted together.

Phatman,
The US-S 970 at 1300f/s from a distance of 10m.


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Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

quote:

Originally posted by Lefteris Vassiliadis:
Phatman,
The US-S 970 at 1300f/s from a distance of 10m.


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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Lefteris,

Most interesting...these brass bullet sabots with their 81% Meplat should work nicely. Will these sabots work properly through Paradox 12 gauge rifled barrels?

Jim,
Yes, they will work but a better solution for fully rifled barrels is the US 900 (same slug without the stabilising basewad) that permits more powder volume and higher velocity (1400 to 1500f/s) from 12ga shotguns with 3.5" chambers.

Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com