Moving up to the new 370 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP we see almost the same shears. At the low IMPACT velocity of 1565 fps we get no shear.




But when we get to an impact velocity of 1665 fps we see that both bullets shear without an issue.
I would put low end effective shear at 1650 fps with these.



I think the extra weight driving behind the HP is at work here. If you can drive this bullet to 2000 fps then your effective shear is between 100-125 yds. Up to 100 yds 100%.

OK, now my favorite of course, and designed for the 458 B&M and will work in anything else as well, except a Marlin of course.

420 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP.

If you recall we tested the first run, with a .190 cavity, and could not get shear at 1900 fps or so as I recall? The same with the 450 gr NonCon version, and the .190 small cavity!

Thus leading to this new .224 cavity.

We now get EFFECTIVE shear down to 1570 fps impact velocities. This is the rear driving force, or if you like, SD and weight driving the shear now at this lower velocity. RIP taught me that SD can be a driving force for expansion of conventionals, I think this is what we are seeing here as well.




We have now been able to lower our effective shear velocity by at least 300-350 fps! That is a lot of room to work. The 18 inch 458 B&M can start this bullet out at 2250 fps, 20 inch gun at a tad over 2300 fps. Effective shear velocity is now out to over 200 yards in the B&M rifles.

This will hold true for the 450 gr CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP as well, no doubt of that, as there will be even more SD behind that bullet causing shear at even lower velocity more than likely.

Now, before you say this, "Just make the Cavity Bigger"---Well, you can't do that. I think the BBW#13 NonCon is mighty fine, with all the advantages and up sides, and hardly any down sides. But, you can only go so wide with the cavity on some bullets--the size of the 67% meplat is as wide as you can possibly go. You see, the BBW#13 NonCon derives directly from it's BBW#13 Solid Twin! Just take the solid and make it a 6 bladed NonCon is all we are doing. Use the same bullet, same POI, same seating depth and same powder charge--same same same. I have been able to use an extra grain or two of powder with the NonCon and stay within pressure limits because of the weight. A gain in velocity a bit over the solid, 50-75 fps in most cases. But one can only go so far in the width of the cavity. Down side? Maybe a tad. But not enough to out weigh all the other advantages and hardly much of a consideration to be honest.

.224 cavity saves the day on the 458s as far as I am concerned.

Winner!

Michael

Happy Easter, all!

Michael, I see you've been misbehaving! No chocolate bunny for you!
But you provided us with some interesting tests as always.

quote:

If you recall we tested the first run, with a .190 cavity, and could not get shear at 1900 fps or so as I recall? The same with the 450 gr NonCon version, and the .190 small cavity!

Thus leading to this new .224 cavity.

When you talk about cavities, I think of the thickness of the area around the cavities. The thinner the area around the cavities, the less force to shear.
I suppose I'm thinking out loud with my fingers here.

quote:

Go admire those news easter dresses,

HEh HEH HEH....... Can't find an dirty old man smiley!

Doc

I USED PROTECTION!!!!! That has to count! LOL..................

Wait before taking the Marlin for elephant, let me test the SOLIDS!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!

I can tell you this for fact! I am 99.9% confident that the new 400 gr CEB BBW#13 Solid will drive thru on a side brain shot!



Now, a note from Sam last night, these new CEBs, 400/370 and 325/295, being short nose to mouth because of working the Marlins, when seated to that depth eat up a LOT of powder capacity. In the Marlins, nothing you can do about that, they have to be seated and crimped in below the top band and they will work through the Marlins slick as can be!

For those of us that wish to use this bullet in other rifles, such as any of the other 458s, or in 45/70 single shots or doubles or......???? Whatever! Then I am looking at seating to the second band on the 458 Super Short and 458 B&M. Maybe could even seat below the second band, and give it a good crimp? I am seating these bullets with the mouth on that second band down. This gives me two bands in the short necks of the B&Ms, both super short and 458 B&M. On 458 Winchester, 458 Lott and others you can seat in different ways to achieve what you want.





I think Sam and Corbin are due a visit, possibly this week I am hoping. I am going to try and fool them into doing some test work with a little higher velocity with both NonCons and the solids as well. I will still refer back to medical leave as the velocity and recoil increase, at least another few days! LOL....

Michael

Keep in mind, while the nose to mouth on the 370 and 295 BBW#13 NonCon was designed for the Marlin 45/70 use, in the 458 B&M the 295 can be taken to 2650 to 2700 fps, in 18 inches, and the 370 to 2450 fps. Now, the effective shear range is up to 300 yds with the 295, and 225-250 with the 370.

With the 458 Lott??? Higher capacity 458 cartridges?

Not bad.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
Happy Easter, all!

Michael, I see you've been misbehaving! No chocolate bunny for you!
But you provided us with some interesting tests as always.

quote:

If you recall we tested the first run, with a .190 cavity, and could not get shear at 1900 fps or so as I recall? The same with the 450 gr NonCon version, and the .190 small cavity!

Thus leading to this new .224 cavity.

When you talk about cavities, I think of the thickness of the area around the cavities. The thinner the area around the cavities, the less force to shear.
I suppose I'm thinking out loud with my fingers here.

Glenn

.224 cavity measured "inside" the cavity.

M

one thing I forgot to mention, but made note of, actually a few things. First, on the 295 and 370 low velocity shear, it was delayed until after 4 inches before shearing. Around 5-6 inches before they actually sheared. Shearing as you can see was in larger sections and not totally even. Stability at the end of penetration on some was good, some turned sideways at the end. Some were straight on. This is no surprise at low velocity impact. And, not really even a concern with a NonCon at low velocity. Blades tended to penetrate 4-5 inches on their own, as normal.

The 420 at low velocity sheared right at 4 inches, and maintained the star pattern as well, but not quite as prominent as impacts at higher velocity. The 420 showed a big effect on the witness card placed at 4 inches, about a 2 inch diameter trauma impact. Impressive at this low velocity. This sort of trauma on the witness card reminded me of some impacts I have seen on lesser cartridges, like 338 high velocity impacts. Not bad.

Michael

We are grateful for every little step along the way,

including Michael's Restored shoulder on Resurrection day.

Thanks Tanz

Small steps! A few more weeks and it's 600 OK time!!!!! Test work that is!

Also have to do final steps and POIs on 500 MDM and 458 B&M getting those RTG for Zim and RSA!

But it was very important we find bottom end on these 458s! So that was something I could do now with "Protection" heh heh!

M

Doc M,
Excellent work. Scientific again, you are validating Duncan MacPherson (from his book BULLET PENETRATION) whose experiments showed that sectional density drives expansion.

The lighter weight bullets of same nose structue don't expand/shear/HEXPLODE at low velocity, though the heavier bullets do.

I think the nose structure that blows at about 1600 fps is perfect.
Excellent work, as usual.
Thanks.

Great low velocity test work Michael! Sam’s rifle sling and low velocity loads appear to keep you on track to a safe full recovery…just don’t overdo it! Most definitely let Corbin and Sam do the heavy work ‘til you’re fully recovered.

The synthetic spritzer tips, if/when they’re finally available, most definitely will add some reach to the lighter weight HPs.

Oh yes…Happy Easter Everyone!

Doc RIP

quote:

Excellent work. Scientific again, you are validating Duncan MacPherson (from his book BULLET PENETRATION) whose experiments showed that sectional density drives expansion.

In the process of doing the test work here, trying to be productive, trying to get the right velocity, and many other distractions, one sometimes forgets about some of the rules that are set forth. But none the less, in the end, the rules show up and make themselves obvious again! This is one of them, and you can see it happen before your eyes.

Now it's just a matter of seeing at what velocity these 370s and 295s can be run to in various cartridges, and of course the Marlin 45/70. Most other cartridges I have little concern over because velocities can be increased, 458 Super Short, 458 B&M, 458 Winchester, and no questions at all in 458 Lott and up. In particular for the guys with Marlin 45/70s I need to check, for myself mostly interested in the 325 Solid/295 NonCon versions in the 458 Super Shorts! In fact now that I see bullets, and think of it more in depth, really should have not done a 400 Solid/370 NonCon---probably would have been more advantageous to do a 350/320 combo. We will see later.

Jim, yes, I will let Sam do some heavy lifting on Tuesday, hey, that is tomorrow! I better get busy and make a plan on some of the stuff we need done?? Yiks!

I would like to know how much the plastic tips would assist in low velocity shear? I must get with Dan, let him get some of these tips done somewhere!


Michael

quote:

Glenn

.224 cavity measured "inside" the cavity.

Yeah, I got that.

So if the meplat of the .458" bullet is 67%, or about 0.306", then the thickness of the part which shears off is about 0.306 - 0.224 = 0.082"?

I'm asking this because it looks like a (more knowledgeable) person (than me) could figure out the velocity where the fragments would shear off based on this.

Glenn

Correct on the numbers you quote, or close enough.

However, what one needs to keep in mind is that the bottom of the blades or petals, is thicker than the top. The reason is that the bottom of the blade extends below the #13 nose profile, into the body of the bullet, or the bore rider portion of the bullet, much thicker there. It's the nature of the design. Therefore, one can only go with so wide a cavity, per given caliber, staying within that 67% meplat.

While I think and consider the thinness of the blades at the top important, I actually think it is more of a function of hydraulic pressures within the cavity itself that pushes the blades outwards during terminal penetration. And, to go with this, the wider the cavity, the more pressures put within the given area. And of course, going hand in hand with this, if the blades are thinner at the top, this will aid in the shear as they are weaker at that point! So I think that both of these actions are a factor in shear.

It will take someone more talented than I to be able to "calculate" that!

Michael

OK, there was some question as to what velocity the new CEB BBW#13s could do in the Marlin 45/70. At least I had questions about it myself. Today, I don't have anymore questions concerning that matter as I have it now.

Using RL 7 we can take the 400 gr CEB BBW#13 to 1932 fps and the matching 370 BBW#13 Brass NonCon to 1993 fps. This is top end.

Again, RL 7 we can take the 325 CEB BBW#13 Solid to 2103 fps and it's matching 295 BBW#13 Brass NonCon to 2137 fps. I am not sure if this is Max yet or not.

I did not have a strain gage hooked up, don't know exact pressures. However, Marlins tend to lock up and get sticky much more than 45000 PSI. All these loads were slick as can be, no issues. I did take the 400 gr BBW#13 to the point of sticking the action some, and backed down. I did not stick anything else and all other loads worked slick as can be.

Man, what I would have given or done for these bullets back in 2002 when I wanted to play with buffalo, and all I had was a sorry ass cast bullet to work with! Opps, sorry cast bullet fans!

Michael

quote:

I would like to know how much the plastic tips would assist in low velocity shear? I must get with Dan, let him get some of these tips done somewhere!

I was wondering about that myself. Will definitely be interesting to see how it impacts the low velocity shear in the 458 B&M SS.


Hum…seems like we’re missing a cartridge here… Where’s the 458 B&M SA?

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:

quote:

Glenn

.224 cavity measured "inside" the cavity.

Yeah, I got that.

So if the meplat of the .458" bullet is 67%, or about 0.306", then the thickness of the part which shears off is about 0.306 - 0.224 = 0.082"?

I'm asking this because it looks like a (more knowledgeable) person (than me) could figure out the velocity where the fragments would shear off based on this.

Glenn, You’re alluding to the magic ratio answer… Hopefully this will be settled in the very near future.

It took a few months diligent work but Michael and Sam have locked in the BBW #13 FN Solids nose profile which appears to also be an optimal nose profile for the paired HP bullet. It also took some time but the driving band issues have been settled so that we now have production dangerous game CEB BBW #13 bullets available in multiple calibers.

Hopefully with some additional low impact velocity BBW #13 HP testing in calibers from 9.3 up through the current biggie of .620 they’ll identify the magic ratio answer for HPs (bullet diameter to Meplat diameter to “inside” HP diameter/depth) as well.

THEN…well as least for me…I’m hoping that with some little additional testing in the .500 caliber as well as perhaps in the 9.3 or the 416 caliber with Sam’s HB (Hollow Base), that Michael and Sam will identify the magic ratio of diameter & depth to eliminate any powder brand/type pressure issues with the. Then I’ll finally be able to order updated batch of 460gr .500 caliber BBW #13 HB FN Brass Solid bullets to match my batch of 460gr .500 caliber BBW #13 HP Brass NonCon bullets. Oh well, one can wish.

Something worth a peek at
If the Low Impact Media Penetration or L.I.M.P. bullets cavity was a square the sheering might be better. To shear four petals might be better than 6 at lower velocity and the corners be easier to sheer being closer to the outer part of the bullet. Also a sheer relief band at the bottom of the cavity at a depth of say 20 thou in a v shape.

Um did anyone notice the small miracle of a 458 .252 SD bullet at 1565 FPS impact velocity achieving 32" of penetration?
That is 45-70 velocity and low SD
The .201 SD 295 bullet at a similar velocity got 26"!

Boomy

And to further note, those are hollow points penetrating to that depth and those very low velocities! Not solids!

We will be getting test work done tomorrow with the solids at 45/70 velocities in a Marlin Guide gun. 400 CEB BBW#13 and 325 CEB BBW#13 Solids.

Michael

Will be interesting
I don't know if a quad petal is feasible but I think worthy of some tests.

quote:

Um did anyone notice the small miracle of a 458 .252 SD bullet at 1565 FPS impact velocity achieving 32" of penetration?
That is 45-70 velocity and low SD
The .201 SD 295 bullet at a similar velocity got 26"!

Yes, I noticed it. Because the bullets didn't expand they seemed to perform almost as well as a flat-nosed solid. *Almost* as well, that is.

Eagerly awaiting the 458 B&M and Supershort performance tests with the 400/370 and 325/295 BBW #13

Hi Michael.
I just arrived back from RSA. No hunting - just marlin and tuna fishing over easter holiday..

Have to catch up on this thread now, but one thing - when will you test Pauls 600 OK??

Cheers
Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Hi Michael.
I just arrived back from RSA. No hunting - just marlin and tuna fishing over easter holiday..

Have to catch up on this thread now, but one thing - when will you test Pauls 600 OK??

Cheers
Ulrik

ULRIK
Welcome back! We have been missing you, forgot you were on a fishing trip, I forget lot's these days! Hope all went well! Funny, I will do some fishing, and eating some fish with my wife's Dad while I am in the RSA June and July! He is a big time fisherman! What a character he is! We are going down to visit a few days while in country. Wife is the fishergirl in the family, I will probably just drink lot's of beer and watch! Unless I can get my hands on a few sticks of dynamite! Now that's my kind of fishing! LOL

Paul's 600 OK??? What is that?

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Hi Michael.
I just arrived back from RSA. No hunting - just marlin and tuna fishing over easter holiday..

Have to catch up on this thread now, but one thing - when will you test Pauls 600 OK??

Cheers
Ulrik

ULRIK
Welcome back! We have been missing you, forgot you were on a fishing trip, I forget lot's these days! Hope all went well! Funny, I will do some fishing, and eating some fish with my wife's Dad while I am in the RSA June and July! He is a big time fisherman! What a character he is! We are going down to visit a few days while in country. Wife is the fishergirl in the family, I will probably just drink lot's of beer and watch! Unless I can get my hands on a few sticks of dynamite! Now that's my kind of fishing! LOL

Paul's 600 OK??? What is that?

M

600 OK???

OK then!

Yes, we did get a little bit of 600 OK work started for sure! Of course I fooled Sam into doing the actual shooting (My AR Docs have me on Medical Leave Still).

We started at some very good low velocity stuff, as this is exactly what I wanted to do to begin with, not because of recoil or anything of the such, but because I want to know how the bullets work at lower velocity!

Since I have lot's of CEB 900 BBW#13s and it's matching NonCons at 825, that's where we begin.

I extrapolated some data with WW 760 that CCMDoc had sent and it actually worked rather well. I wanted to be around 1800 fps, and was not far off at 1839 fps with the 900 CEB BBW#13 Solid.

I had anticipated something along the lines of 55 inches or so, so only used 1 box. Oppps! Bullet did hit somewhat low, as Sam nor I knew actually where this was going to hit and where the irons were sighted for. Regardless of that, it caught enough of the medium to go all the way through 64 inches of test medium and was lost--Dead straight.

Then we added the second box to back it up. Also raised the muzzle velocity to 1895 fps for the 900 gr Solid and 1914 fps for the 825 NonCon. Results are below.








Corbin and I had done some work a couple years ago with a 600 OK he had. We tested the Woodleigh FMJ at around 1800 fps and got 41 inches of straight penetration with it. Later he was able to get some of the new Barnes Banded 900s and at 1900 fps these penetrated to 53 inches. Just FYI and comparison.

As for the 825 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP! Whew, massive trauma inflicted to the medium. Absolutely perfect star pattern and shearing effect. I did not get down range velocity as I feared for my chronograph photo cells not knowing exactly how the rifle was sighted. I was correct, that first round would have taken out the chrono. But after this Sam knew where it was shooting and adjusted accordingly. I will have to do the same thing in a few weeks when I start shooting it, when I am released from Medical Leave!

I was extremely pleased with these results! I think I know someone with a 600 Nitro that will also be very pleased to know that the bullets work extremely good at these velocities!

Michael---And of course My Sidekick Sam!!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
600 OK???

OK then!

Yes, we did get a little bit of 600 OK work started for sure! Of course I fooled Sam into doing the actual shooting (My AR Docs have me on Medical Leave Still).

Damn right! You shouldn't be anywhere near those things - we know you will "sneak one in"...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
We started at some very good low velocity stuff, as this is exactly what I wanted to do to begin with, not because of recoil or anything of the such, but because I want to know how the bullets work at lower velocity!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I extrapolated some data with WW 760 that CCMDoc had sent and it actually worked rather well. I wanted to be around 1800 fps, and was not far off at 1839 fps with the 900 CEB BBW#13 Solid.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I had anticipated something along the lines of 55 inches or so, so only used 1 box. Oppps! Bullet did hit somewhat low, as Sam nor I knew actually where this was going to hit and where the irons were sighted for. Regardless of that, it caught enough of the medium to go all the way through 64 inches of test medium and was lost--Dead straight.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Then we added the second box to back it up. Also raised the muzzle velocity to 1895 fps for the 900 gr Solid and 1914 fps for the 825 NonCon.

Corbin and I had done some work a couple years ago with a 600 OK he had. We tested the Woodleigh FMJ at around 1800 fps and got 41 inches of straight penetration with it. Later he was able to get some of the new Barnes Banded 900s and at 1900 fps these penetrated to 53 inches. Just FYI and comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As for the 825 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP! Whew, massive trauma inflicted to the medium. Absolutely perfect star pattern and shearing effect.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I did not get down range velocity as I feared for my chronograph photo cells not knowing exactly how the rifle was sighted. I was correct, that first round would have taken out the chrono.

WIMP! If you don't shoot a skyscreen at least once per session, you ain't trying hard enough.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
But after this Sam knew where it was shooting and adjusted accordingly. I will have to do the same thing in a few weeks when I start shooting it, when I am released from Medical Leave!

I was extremely pleased with these results! I think I know someone with a 600 Nitro that will also be very pleased to know that the bullets work extremely good at these velocities!

Michael---And of course My Sidekick Sam!!! LOL

Sam told me last night of your adventure with my 600 Overkill.

You guys done good

Can't wait to see what you find when you crank up the velocity to normal levels

quote:

Sam told me last night of your adventure with my 600 Overkill.

He is such a tattletale!!!!!




M

BIEBS---

Page 154!!!!!!

Doc

Can you believe that performance at those velocities? I am astounded. You just don't get that sort of performance at these velocities!

Yep, going to crank'em up in about mid May when you give me my orders!!!!! I want to test across the board the bullets you sent along with the CEBs at 2150 2200 fps or so, of course I know it will crank out more than that, but to do across the board tests, 2150-2200 is great, and probably where you need to work with this in the field, gees, ya don't need more than that!

I also want to go down a notch as well, 1700 or so and see what happens with the CEBs. Probably do that tomorrow, light easy loads.

M

I am happily surprised and yet more confident that the 600 can easily get the job done on anything that walks.

You're right - 2,200fps is a good upper velocity - all of us who regularly shoot 600OKs find it is easy to handle. Above 2,300fps those 900 grainers start to get your attention. It would be interesting to see just how far one would go at 2,400fps ...

When you say "I want to go down a notch ..." you really mean you are going to have Sam try some low velocity loads, right ???

BTW, 2,000fps is my target velocity with the 900 grain CEB #13 out of my V-C double. That's assuming both barrels shoot to POA at that velocity.

What's with you guys and these poofter velocities ..??

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
BTW, 2,000fps is my target velocity with the 900 grain CEB #13 out of my V-C double. That's assuming both barrels shoot to POA at that velocity.

Yes, excellent. However, if for whatever reason you are not able to reach that target velocity, POI? Pressure? Whatever the reason and you hit 1900 and change, 1950 and all is perfect--You know you can let the bullet do the work at that velocity without an issue at all! I know how goals are, sometimes they can be met without issue, other times not. In this case, if you have to settle for less velocity, it does not mean you settle for less terminal performance!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
What's with you guys and these poofter velocities ..??

Sam is a sissy!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
What's with you guys and these poofter velocities ..??

This is the 600 Overkill we are talking about

Hey Jay,

Michael and Sam have a handful of your bullets too (and Robs "Crayola Tips" as well).

They better put up a few more boxes to catch these once they head over 2,100fps.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
BTW, 2,000fps is my target velocity with the 900 grain CEB #13 out of my V-C double. That's assuming both barrels shoot to POA at that velocity.

Yes, excellent. However, if for whatever reason you are not able to reach that target velocity, POI? Pressure? Whatever the reason and you hit 1900 and change, 1950 and all is perfect--You know you can let the bullet do the work at that velocity without an issue at all! I know how goals are, sometimes they can be met without issue, other times not. In this case, if you have to settle for less velocity, it does not mean you settle for less terminal performance!

Michael

Given your (I mean Sam's) results, seems as if 1,850 - 1,900fps is all I need and I already know that the solids at around 1,860- 1,870fps regulate fairly well in my 600NE ...

You know, I don't think I included any Woodleigh RN solid .620 bullets for the tests. I don't think I have any but if you think it would be valuable, I will get a box sent to you for play.

Might be allow us to address the historical reputation that the 600NE demonstrated "poor penetration".

I don't mind - it's your (I mean Sam's) shoulder

Well talking about sissy velocities, we also had to do test work with the new .458s from CEB in real 45/70s, at real velocities that some rifles will work at. I am going to start off with Sam's double rifle and some very interesting results with it.

I can't remember who makes this little rifle, but it is Sweeeeeet, to say the least. It's petite, light weight at 7.5 lbs, and handles like a dream. I would like to chop the barrels off to about 20 inches, but other than that it's perfection!

I had some photos of that little gun, it's gorgeous as well, but can't seem to locate them?

Anyway, some of Sam's starting loads with IMR 4895 took the 400 CEB BBW#13 Solid to 1600 fps, and dead center both left and right at 25 yds! So we decided to play around with some RL 7, I always liked RL 7 in 45/70. Looked up some of the pressures I had in 45/70 with RL 7 and we started with 48/RL 7, which gave us a whopping 1930 fps average right/left. Problem, HIGH, through the regulation to 4 inches high at 25. So we started dropping all the way to 45/RL 7, and it was still high even then. Shooting pretty good, but way high, which could be fixed with a new taller front sight, or a change in the rear if so inclined.




Stepping back to 50 yds, even 45/RL 7 at 1820 fps or so was shooting 8 inches high, and way off regulation! So we decided to drop it to 40/RL 7, guessing that would be back around the 1600 fps mark, and like magic right/left was regulated again, POI was POA, and everything was HAPPY HAPPY Time! But wow, 1600 fps, was that going to be enough?? Let's see;



Well, personally I can't tell any of you what to do, or what not to do, all I can tell you is "What Would Michael Do". Back in the day I wanted a Marlin Guide Gun to do all things. Back then, there were no decent 45/70 bullets. I had a guide gun along with a 458 Lott back in 2002 shooting buffalo! 420 Cast Performance at 1850 fps. Yep, got my buffalo, but that bullet was not up to par, could have been a real problem. Shot an elephant with the 458 Lott. Had to test a side brain shot on the chopped off head with that 420 Cast. It made it to about 1 inch the other side of the brain cavity, looked like a pointy sheared off handgun bullet by the time it got there. I figure it was short for that sort of work as well. Oh what I would have given for this exact same 400 CEB BBW#13 Solid back then! It would have made a big difference for sure. Now while this load would not be a big knock'em off their feet load, the penetration is there to get the job done! I would use it if I took a notion to do so! And, I would have confidence that if I did my job, the bullet would do it's job as well.

Oh, then Sam and I decided to have a little shooting contest! 50 yds, 4 rounds, in the Double, best man wins! Wins what I don't know? HEH HEH. Both of us so damned blind that I could not see anything but the black diamond, sorta just put that fuzzy big bead somewhere down range and did my best to squeeze the trigger! Of course I pulled one damn! But got lucky, and Sam pulled one too, but I think his 3 is better than my 3!






I have a good excuse, I am on medical leave, not even supposed to be shooting! LOL




Michael and my trusted sidekick Sam!