quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Demon

Chop another 6 inches off that barrel and it will start to look like one of mine!

HEH
Michael

Michael, no chance of that! I like little heft to my rifles!

P.S. I saw those 'toy' guns in your other thread!

Dave
I plan on doing some more work on these come Monday. I want to retest the 416s at lower velocity, along with the 458 400s and the 500 gr 470s. I am going to try and hit 2100-2125 fps with the 470s.

Other news!

I placed a new order with North Fork yesterday!!!!!!!!!!

We will be taking a good look at North Forks CPS Bullets in 458 Caliber! I have 325-350 and 450 gr 458 CPS on the way! We will be giving this a very thorough test and make a determination if they are good super penetrators for BUFFALO!!!!! Now I don't have the 325s for that, but who knows, maybe??? At any rate we can see how they do and what happens at different velocities with them.

I also have some .366 250 gr SS coming for my 9.3 B&M. The North Forks are about the only expanding bullet I have not worked with yet in my 9.3 B&M. I probably should have got some 286's too! But I look at that gun as an plains game sorta gun anyway, and 250s are great in it at 2700 fps. This should be a smash.

While we are playing North Fork in the next couple or so weeks, I am going to revisit some other 458 and 416 caliber SS bullets I have. We are going to run velocity up and down a bit and see what happens!

But before anything else I have to get the 500 gr Hornady DGS retested again for Buffalo, I have been promising now for weeks! And it should be revisited, if you recall, I tested 3 in the 458 Lott, 2 went around 60+ inches DEAD STRAIGHT!!!! 1 got caught up, lost stability somehow and veered off course at 50+ inches. So this must be revisited once again. It's close with these, very close. I was telling Mike earlier, if they just could have done a 60% instead of 55-57% meplat, it might have made a big difference? But, as we know, animal tissue is way more forgiving than our test medium, so in the field the Hornady does seem to do good from all reports! I think it is a good compromise bullet for feeding issues with some guns, and still good straight line penetration!

That's all I have today!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:


Michael, no chance of that! I like little heft to my rifles!

P.S. I saw those 'toy' guns in your other thread!

Demon

You and Dave!!! Are you guys from the same place!!!!

Doc M,
I think they are from the same state as me, state of mind, that is ...
I told Brian to make my .458 B&M come out somewhere between 20" and 23", no shorter than 20" please!

Michael:

Great work with the Hawks and many, many thanks. Wow! Look at the jacket thickness in those pictures. It would appear that in the .416 that the Hawks with the .065 jacket hold together very well and maybe are a little too tough for any thin skinned game unless impact velocity is very high. On the Hawk web site Andy says "The .065 jackets are appropriate for only the very toughest applications." I think Andy is right!

I think more penetration would have been achieved with the .458 bullets had we managed to lay our hands on some 500 grain bullets.

It looks like the .035 .470 bullets might work well in a .470 for light game which is pretty much what Jeff suggested.

I was super impressed with how the .416s did. I think they would indeed be suitable for heavy game if launched at sufficient velocity. Perhaps in the .416s ths Hawks with the .050 Jacket might be the best compromise.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
I think they are from the same state as me, state of mind, that is ...
I told Brian to make my .458 B&M come out somewhere between 20" and 23", no shorter than 20" please!

OH MY GOD!!!!!!! RIP---You and Brian have both been keeping that from me!!!!! Both of you must have realized I might have gone coronary over that?

I don't even know what to say! A loss for words!

I can't believe it! Say it ain't so!



Michael

Dave

You are welcome. Yes, those are extremely thick jackets. And I was surprised myself at how well the 416-400s did with the .065 jacket. Pretty close to some other premiums we have tested. By accident I had them at higher velocity the first go. Dropping that velocity by only 50-60 fps caused some other developments. I will investigate them a little further this week. Performance seems to be good at higher velocity with these. Maybe .050 would be a good compromise, at velocities of 2300 fps or so.

I will drop the velocity of the 458s and the 470s to increase performance, Expansion was very extreme, reduce the velocity, increase penetration with these.


Michael

I've got some 400gr .458 Hawks, that I bought for shooting in the .45-70. I think the jackets are 0.045".

I've shot 'em into clay and they held together pretty decent, but I did not test them in the paper, but I will.

Michael, or anybody, have you tried the 325gr .050" jacket Hawk RN bullet in .405Win?
Sounds like an interesting bullet to me. I want to try it!

Demon

I have not tried a 325 050 Hawk in 405. I don't have a rifle currently in that caliber.

M

OK OK, I am guilty of lurking around in other places. Mostly just to see how stupid some people really are. Always interested in other discussions on bullets of course. Our very own Mike has far more patience than I do, and is doing one hell of a good job in spreading the good word on terminal ballistics and how they apply. He is making one hell of a good "Bullet Ambassador" to the uneducated out there! He is carrying the gospel to the unclean masses in ways that I cannot! I ran across this little item this morning, and felt compelled to post it here! Of course this is preaching to the choir for us here at big bore.



Mike70560
one of us

Posted May 24, 2010 7:29 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by grandveneur:
Sure, they will be ! But the question is , if we need all this new bullets ? I shot a lot of buffalos with SP bullets from Hornady and elefants with classic FMJ bullets from Hornady or Woodleigh ! I think a lot of people do that too since many years !


Why not go in to the field with a better bullet? I have tested these bullets in test media and they performed very very well. I am not saying you cannot kill an elephant with the old style bullet, but with the cost and limited time involved why not prepare with the best possible equipment. I am sure the same thing was said 110 years ago when those new fangled Nitro rounds came out, we had been killing elephants with bore rifles for years.

Mike
DRSS
www.cowislandoutdoors.com

Posts: 918 | Location: New Iberia, LA | Registered: 26 March 2008

One thing I have noticed is now that Woodleigh has their new bullet out, the monolithic bullets seem to be more accepted.

Michael458,

There is a 450-400 Double rifle for sale in the classified with your name on it. 19" Barrels

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
One thing I have noticed is now that Woodleigh has their new bullet out, the monolithic bullets seem to be more accepted.

Mike, you are correct. Woodleigh Devotes! Of which I am one, there are some super great Woodleigh bullets out there, some of which I would choose over all others for particular jobs. There are also some I would not chose EVER. But, there are good and not so good with all the manufacturers. Everyone knows I pretty much like the Barnes Banded Solids. However, the one they have in 9.3 caliber is not worth a damn, last solid in 9.3 I would choose, Woodleigh 320 at the top of the list! So it goes both ways.

Exactly as you said so well---Why not go to the field with the better bullet? All depends on the mission at hand, test work before hand, and the ability to be able to choose the proper bullet.


Hmmmmm? 19" barrels! Appealing! But I am not sure I will ever figure out the caliber?

LOL

Michael

In my opinion ther is a place for solids with less penetration. Assuming there is enough penetration to get through the head and into the neck on a frontal shot, then when hunting herds where over penetration can wound or kill an elephant behind the target animal, perhaps the less deep penetrating bullet is preferable. It is simply knowing what to expect from the various solids and selecting the one most appropriate to the mission.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Everyone knows I pretty much like the Barnes Banded Solids. However, the one they have in 9.3 caliber is not worth a damn, last solid in 9.3 I would choose,

Michael

Say it aint so!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by michael458:

Everyone knows I pretty much like the Barnes Banded Solids. However, the one they have in 9.3 caliber is not worth a damn, last solid in 9.3 I would choose,

Michael

Say it aint so!

Michael, you must be getting me talked into this short gun thing. Yesterday I was looking at a Marlin 45-70GS with an 181/5 inch barrel

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion ther is a place for solids with less penetration. Assuming there is enough penetration to get through the head and into the neck on a frontal shot, then when hunting herds where over penetration can wound or kill an elephant behind the target animal, perhaps the less deep penetrating bullet is preferable. It is simply knowing what to expect from the various solids and selecting the one most appropriate to the mission.

465H&H

465HH

Well, you know how I feel, one can never have too much penetration. But that I won't go over again. Let's solve your problem. Easy, choose a proper FN solid of your choice and nose profile. Let's say for you, that you like the North Forks, an excellent choice. Ok, lets say that you are shooting .458 caliber. Now we don't chose another nose profile because we are going with the very best, you are spending a lot of money, have the best equipment, best bullet, best of everything to suit the mission at hand, to penetrate dead straight, but not over penetrate in your case. Ok, we have .458 caliber 500s and 450s, from North Fork! For you, 500 gr is too much penetration. Maybe 450 is enough, but not too much? Maybe it is still too much! Call North Fork and tell them you want to test a 425 gr and maybe even a 400 gr with the same exact nose profile, and test them! Then you will know, and then all your personal issues with penetration are solved.

This is what I would do if I had the same issue as you!

North Fork is very reasonable about custom orders, as you already know. Other custom bullet makers can do exactly the same thing, SH Precision, Lehigh and several more I am sure. What you have an issue with is very simple to solve. I certainly would not solve it by going to what I thought was an inferior design, take a good and proper design and start reducing the SD until you get the amount of penetration you desire! EASY!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by michael458:

Everyone knows I pretty much like the Barnes Banded Solids. However, the one they have in 9.3 caliber is not worth a damn, last solid in 9.3 I would choose,

Michael

Say it aint so!

Michael, you must be getting me talked into this short gun thing. Yesterday I was looking at a Marlin 45-70GS with an 181/5 inch barrel

Hi Dave!

Yes, I am very afraid that the 9.3 Barnes banded comes up very short on meplat for caliber at or around only 48%, which is well below my rule of thumb of 60% or better. The thing takes as many curves as a round nose. I made a North Fork order a couple of days ago, I should have got some 286 Solids. Will have to make another order for some. But, the 320 Woodleigh FMJ is extreme, dead 100% straight line and deep! It would be hard to beat.


Now, for the Marlin, yep, short guns grow on you, and yes I will corrupt you, so be careful. Might have to send you one of mine to take a look at, a little later on when some come back in, and really corrupt you then! HEH!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion ther is a place for solids with less penetration. Assuming there is enough penetration to get through the head and into the neck on a frontal shot, then when hunting herds where over penetration can wound or kill an elephant behind the target animal, perhaps the less deep penetrating bullet is preferable. It is simply knowing what to expect from the various solids and selecting the one most appropriate to the mission.

465H&H

465HH

Well, you know how I feel, one can never have too much penetration. But that I won't go over again. Let's solve your problem. Easy, choose a proper FN solid of your choice and nose profile. Let's say for you, that you like the North Forks, an excellent choice. Ok, lets say that you are shooting .458 caliber. Now we don't chose another nose profile because we are going with the very best, you are spending a lot of money, have the best equipment, best bullet, best of everything to suit the mission at hand, to penetrate dead straight, but not over penetrate in your case. Ok, we have .458 caliber 500s and 450s, from North Fork! For you, 500 gr is too much penetration. Maybe 450 is enough, but not too much? Maybe it is still too much! Call North Fork and tell them you want to test a 425 gr and maybe even a 400 gr with the same exact nose profile, and test them! Then you will know, and then all your personal issues with penetration are solved.

This is what I would do if I had the same issue as you!

North Fork is very reasonable about custom orders, as you already know. Other custom bullet makers can do exactly the same thing, SH Precision, Lehigh and several more I am sure. What you have an issue with is very simple to solve. I certainly would not solve it by going to what I thought was an inferior design, take a good and proper design and start reducing the SD until you get the amount of penetration you desire! EASY!

Michael

Michael,

What you say makes sense if penetration is the only issue. Having had to stop a couple of elephant charges, I place a very high premium on stopping power if you miss the brain. That is an all to common occurance in a charge situation. IMHO, the heavier the bullet the better the stopping power. Therefore, for me going lighter in bullet weight is not an option especially when hunting cow herds. Looks like there is more than one way to skin a cat!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion ther is a place for solids with less penetration. Assuming there is enough penetration to get through the head and into the neck on a frontal shot, then when hunting herds where over penetration can wound or kill an elephant behind the target animal, perhaps the less deep penetrating bullet is preferable. It is simply knowing what to expect from the various solids and selecting the one most appropriate to the mission.

465H&H

465HH

Well, you know how I feel, one can never have too much penetration. But that I won't go over again. Let's solve your problem. Easy, choose a proper FN solid of your choice and nose profile. Let's say for you, that you like the North Forks, an excellent choice. Ok, lets say that you are shooting .458 caliber. Now we don't chose another nose profile because we are going with the very best, you are spending a lot of money, have the best equipment, best bullet, best of everything to suit the mission at hand, to penetrate dead straight, but not over penetrate in your case. Ok, we have .458 caliber 500s and 450s, from North Fork! For you, 500 gr is too much penetration. Maybe 450 is enough, but not too much? Maybe it is still too much! Call North Fork and tell them you want to test a 425 gr and maybe even a 400 gr with the same exact nose profile, and test them! Then you will know, and then all your personal issues with penetration are solved.

This is what I would do if I had the same issue as you!

North Fork is very reasonable about custom orders, as you already know. Other custom bullet makers can do exactly the same thing, SH Precision, Lehigh and several more I am sure. What you have an issue with is very simple to solve. I certainly would not solve it by going to what I thought was an inferior design, take a good and proper design and start reducing the SD until you get the amount of penetration you desire! EASY!

Michael

Michael,

What you say makes sense if penetration is the only issue. Having had to stop a couple of elephant charges, I place a very high premium on stopping power if you miss the brain. That is an all to common occurance in a charge situation. IMHO, the heavier the bullet the better the stopping power. Therefore, for me going lighter in bullet weight is not an option especially when hunting cow herds. Looks like there is more than one way to skin a cat!

465H&H

465 HH

Ok, I can see things that could move in two different directions, that might solve or get close. Life is a bitch, then we compromise. Now, it's a very well known fact, flat surfaces hit harder, with far more authority, and transfer more trauma. I believe, but cannot prove YET, that even a lighter flat surface bullet, such as a theoretical 400-425 gr .458 caliber North Fork, or possibly the new Woodleigh Hydro, traveling at velocity would hit with such authority, and possibly transmit more trauma to target area than your traditional 550 round nose would? I believe that it would. That is only my opinion however, not fact.

Now, one could also go in the other direction, heavy for caliber, and lower velocity to limit penetration. Without doubt, velocity is a factor with flat nose solids. Lower the velocity, reduce the penetration. At one time I felt there was an upper end to velocity with some of these bullets, after gaining far more experience with some many different types and nose profiles I no longer believe in a practical upper end to where one starts to get diminishing returns. It may be true on some bullets and profiles, but I don't think it is with any I have been working with. So velocity is a very important factor, more gives more in most all cases. If you are of the mind that you need weight alone to "turn" a charge, then consider heavy for caliber, reduced velocity to limit penetration. Would you get less "Knock Out" power with heavy and slow? From my line of thinking, I believe yes, in smaller diameter of say 458 or less. Larger diameter would start to look better to me with heavy and slow.

Compromise? Yep, it's the way of the world sad to say. And we all make considerable compromises in shooting and hunting, as there can rarely be anything that is 100% perfect for every single situation. I may very well be making a compromise when I choose super penetration over anything else, which I do. You may have to make a more serious compromise if you are looking for limited penetration. I truly believe that the super penetration we get out of todays modern flat nose solids is the lesser of the evils, and the lesser compromise.

One day maybe we will field test the two?

Michael

As you know, I tried FN solids last fall on eles and will again this November and next March. Exactly which ones is still to be determined. I am a firm believer in picking the best rifle caliber and bullet to do the job at hand. I can say that I have used RN steel jacketed solids on 18 elephants and have had nothing but good results. That has given me a high degree of confidence in them. I haven't had enough experience with FN solids on ele to get that degree of confidence as yet. But I suspect it will come with time if I live long enough and don't run out of money.

465h&H

465HH

Well, there is no reason to go into the RN vs FN as we both know exactly where I stand on that. As does most of the rest of the world. While I have killed less elephant for sure, exactly 1/3, I have probably done more test work, and shooting and by doing both, I have some very serious opinions that I can stand on and have that same high degree of confidence in that opinion, as you do. I suspect that you also know the real answer to the issue, regardless of past experiences.

Regardless of that, if you have a concern about the over penetration, take a look at lighter, and flat, and the amount of trauma inflicted by that as opposed to big round and slow? Something to ponder I suppose.

I am still working on next years shoot! I thought I would be able to get several buff on quota and maybe a couple of elephants. No luck so far with my boys in Zim. I was thinking in season, taking my boys, but can't get enough buffalo on quota to be worth getting on the airplane for. I was offered two buff bulls, two cows and two tuskless ele, which I have no interest at all for tuskless elephant, for "In Season". I told my guy I would not get on the damn airplane and travel there for that little quota even if there was no trophy fees! Forget it. So I am checking out some other options in Mozambique now and see what I can get on quota for buffalo. Also maybe a late season left over quota in Zim for next year backing up to Mozambique. So I have no definitive plan yet for 2011. I would love to get some things in with the 500 MDM. I also would like to do some plains game with the smaller guns and the brass HPs. Don't know yet?

Michael

This thread has been such a great source of info thanks to many but especially Michael458

It is the longest thread I think in AR history.

Doc M

WANTED: More .458" 500 grs DGS tests!!!! Both in your test box and the Trex box please

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Doc M

WANTED: More .458" 500 grs DGS tests!!!! Both in your test box and the Trex box please

YES YES YES! I Promise this week---Friday I think, Saturday the latest. I can do a T'Rex right up front as I have chewed up mess anyway. Have to build two new boxes for normal tests (build I mean test medium).. I have enough to T'Rex first thing, maybe tomorrow when I build the box.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
YES YES YES! I Promise this week
M

Looking forward to it Michael..
Thanks

Ulrik

More Hawks pretty please

I think i have some .510, .475, adn .458 DGS, MM .. need any?

Dave

Yes, I think Friday morning for T'Rex and more Hawk work, at reduced velocity.

Jeffe

DGS I have all those, 570s in .510, 500s in 470, and 500s in 458, so good to go! Thanks. I swear, so much going on I can't keep up right now, but I know I tested the .510s, Right? I thought so?

Friday, test day, that's my goal!

M

7 months of work, 70 pages of material, how many 1000s of words typed?

Wow, I did not expect this, but it's been a hell of a ride so far! I know I have learned a great deal, I only thought I knew something at the beginning of this!

Hmmmm!

M

It is like the federalist papers of terminal performance

aren't Northfork FN MORE FN than woodleigh 480gr solids?

apparently SOMEONE thinks that they penetrate more than woodies..

go figure

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
,,Might want to try the 450 North Fork flat nose solids.

.....


The 450 NF FN's will give you much more penetration than the 480ge Woodleighs.

For buff, might want to look into the 450gr North Fork cup points.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
aren't Northfork FN MORE FN than woodleigh 480gr solids?

apparently SOMEONE thinks that they penetrate more than woodies..

go figure

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
,,Might want to try the 450 North Fork flat nose solids.

.....


The 450 NF FN's will give you much more penetration than the 480ge Woodleighs.

For buff, might want to look into the 450gr North Fork cup points.

JPK

OK, all those expecting Friday test work, I HAVE LIED TO YOU! I am sorry, not going to happen. Have been too pushed with honest to goodness work matters today to get things ready for tests tomorrow! Sometimes work does get in the way of my range time unfortunately. But, I always work so I can play, and put work before play, cause no worky, no money, no play! Have to work, so I can play, or something like that!

I will "shoot" for Saturday morning now. Pun Intended.

Another note, My North Fork order came in today--good service from North Fork, only a couple of days or so! Thank You North Fork, I know you are lurking! Have not had time to get another order in for the 286 9.3 solids I want to try in my 9.3 B&M yet, at that time I will give you a call for those other bullets discussed. Have the number.

Sad part is, I have not had time to open the box from UPS yet to see the North Forks! Can't wait, like christmas around here the last day or so. Not to mention two brand new 500 MDMs arrived yesterday!!!!! What's better than One? TWO or more! HEh. Actually these two I built to have around if someone decided they needed a 500 MDM, but I am having second thoughts about that right now, I can always use a couple of big bores, or a couple more big bores I should say! If anyone does want one, I would hurry before I change my mind and start shooting the hell out of them!!!!!!!

HEH

Michael

michael

heres a big bore just for you, the bullet is still flying out there as far as i know, but the gun is just like you prefere them, 30" barrels S/S double rifle
at least it is a big bore

Nice picture Peter...
Perfect caliber for roebuck hunting
Not much meat damage I quess...?

no buff

you can actually eat right up to the hole, and you never have to guess if you hit it or not

best

peter

Peter

All I got to say is that 30" is pretty long seems to me? But I won't kick and scream, looks pretty effective in it's current configuration. I suppose penetration is sufficient.

Good photo too! Don't know much about that critter however, I have not seen one of those around my part of the country? HEH!

Well done, and thanks--Maybe hacksaw that thing down to a good 18 inches or so!

LOL

Michael

Dave, where are you? Have some more test results for the Hawks, nothing earth shattering, still playing with dropping velocities and checking performance.

I tested short today, since I had some other things going on, I was at 22 yds with these.

Dropping the velocity to 2125 fps with the 470 500 gr Hawk.

Oh, I did slip in a Witness Card at 4 inches with both of these Hawk tests today. I left them on the range, but trauma inflicted with this 500 gr 470 Hawk was about the most damage I have ever seen on a Witness Card. I must get it and post it for you.