quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Got it

Thanks Jim

Since Dan of CEB may be watching, we can add the request to have slim long petals (=nice ogive) that still produces a blunt cylinder for deep penetration.

And while we're at mentioning wishlists, we should add that the .510" diameter has been virtually orphaned. Surely there are some potential users who would like to see the results of the .500" developments duplicated for those with 500 AccRel, 500 ASquare, 500 Jeffrey, 500 Mbogo, 500NE, 510 Wells, et al.
(I left off 50BMG because I can't see someone carrying one around the Selous.)

Rather than plow through 187 pages can someone post a synopsis of this never ending story please.... in four sentences or less ?

quote:

in four sentences or less ?

Well I can't do it for sure! Long winded as I am, and I type rather well? No way! I would stand a better chance of trying to swim to Australia, from South Carolina as to be able to do that! And I can't swim either!



M

quote:

9.3x62, .416 Rigby.'

This thread will help you choose bullets for your last two cartridges, though the 338 got some useful testing, as well as 458, 474, and 500, and others.

Early on there was some testing of expanding bullets for penetration. As expected, premium bullets did well in most of the bores. Throughout it was found that guaranteed, straight, optimum penetration for solids required a flat meplat of around 65%-70%. A normal to rapid twist for calibre was also recommended. Round-nose solids will no longer be tested: they not only fail by veering off course, they destroyed too much test equipment in the process.

finally, there is discussion about the optimum development of brass bullets that will blow off their nose on impact and produce a large widening wound channel while the core of the bullet would penetrate straight to such a depth that it would need close to lengthwise shooting in order to recover a bullet. These are considered to be the most devastating generation of bullet technology.

quote:

This thread will help you choose bullets for your last two cartridges, though the 338 got some useful testing, as well as 458, 474, and 500, and others.

Early on there was some testing of expanding bullets for penetration. As expected, premium bullets did well in most of the bores. Throughout it was found that guaranteed, straight, optimum penetration for solids required a flat meplat of around 65%-70%. A normal to rapid twist for calibre was also recommended. Round-nose solids will no longer be tested: they not only fail by veering off course, they destroyed too much test equipment in the process.

finally, there is discussion about the optimum development of brass bullets that will blow off their nose on impact and produce a large widening wound channel while the core of the bullet would penetrate straight to such a depth that it would need close to lengthwise shooting in order to recover a bullet. These are considered to be the most devastating generation of bullet technology.

Wonderful synopsis Tanzan. That about says it all, more or less . DocM is of course ignoring me, by not doing anything in a "light for caliber" for a 404J

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Figuring a bullet weight for a reversible:
The 404 or .423-caliber is a nice middle of the road place to start.
Here are the latest from CEB:
400-gr FN
375-gr HP
350-gr FN
325-gr HP









Roughly estimating a 25-grain loss when the flat base is turned into a flat nose in this caliber,
so whittle the 375-grain HP down to reversible:

The reversible would be about 350-grains and 1.500" long.
That is mighty long.
I would not want to go any lighter than 350grains for the all-purpose .423-caliber reversible.

Add the Talon Tip and it is way long,
about perfect for long range use in my 1:10" twist McGowen barrels ...
as long as the .423" diameter brass works in the .4245" McGowen barrels.
The .423" North Fork copper bullets have always been sub-MOA in same barrels.

If necessary, Pac-Nor .423" grooves, and fast twist.

BUT hold my hosses: These new CEB bullets measure .424" on the bands by my calipers!
Should be perfect.
0.412" on the bore-riding shank,
and the HP cavities are about 0.448" deep.

Bands on the Reversible format: 4 bands in the middle, and no seal band at the base, of course, since there is no more flat base.

Well, just sticking with the current band structures on separate FN and HP bullets,
with the option of the Talon Tip on the lighter HP,
and the heavier FN for "solid work,"
well, that ain't such a bad idea!

Maybe I better get on Dave Bush's trolley, and
keep it on the tracks ...

"Scope lightly and carry a big kick and you shall go far."
Theodore Roosevelt, from The Happy Hunting Ground.

325 GR @ 423 isnt light enough?

SSR

quote:

325 GR @ 423 isnt light enough?

SSR

Cross,

As I mentioned earlier...I was just having a poke at DocM.

BTW, those are some gorgeous looking projectiles!

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

325 GR @ 423 isnt light enough?

SSR

Cross,

As I mentioned earlier...I was just having a poke at DocM.

BTW, those are some gorgeous looking projectiles!

Had to scratch my head on this exchange for a few minutes. But for Cross - Nope, 325gr is not light enough. I have 300 320gr .423s MTH Y01 HP Spitzers on order from CEB!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

9.3x62, .416 Rigby.'

This thread will help you choose bullets for your last two cartridges, though the 338 got some useful testing, as well as 458, 474, and 500, and others.

Early on there was some testing of expanding bullets for penetration. As expected, premium bullets did well in most of the bores. Throughout it was found that guaranteed, straight, optimum penetration for solids required a flat meplat of around 65%-70%. A normal to rapid twist for calibre was also recommended. Round-nose solids will no longer be tested: they not only fail by veering off course, they destroyed too much test equipment in the process.

finally, there is discussion about the optimum development of brass bullets that will blow off their nose on impact and produce a large widening wound channel while the core of the bullet would penetrate straight to such a depth that it would need close to lengthwise shooting in order to recover a bullet. These are considered to be the most devastating generation of bullet technology.

Good start
First I would say that Michael loves bullets. I then would add that Michael with the help of the owner of the bastard file, some group input, Grey Goose and CEB produced the BBW #13 flat nose solid and that is the best bullet on the market for straight line penetration and superior design of bore rider, band configuration and nose profile. NonCon bullets follow in design are the deadliest bullets on the market with its penetrating solid base and six shearing petals. If I were to expound I would add that a lot of fun and debate was had and animals were proudly killed in the process.

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

325 GR @ 423 isnt light enough?

SSR

Cross,

As I mentioned earlier...I was just having a poke at DocM.

BTW, those are some gorgeous looking projectiles!

HEH HEH....... Esskay, man if you got much less than 325 grs or so we would be shooting "dust" LOL......

Michael

Thank You Boomy, between you and Tanz I think that pretty much does it. I will add that we have in a most thorough way investigated every solid ever made, and many many that were prototypes, and yes, I concur, there is nothing like the BBW#13 and never has been. It has everything going for it and as far as I am concerned, it has no downsides. 465HH will say it penetrates too far, a downside I accept wholeheartedly! A great deal of this entire thread was dedicated to solids and I think we did it, we identified good, almost good, wants to be good, not so good, and the worst and the best, and most importantly the WHY!

We have done a lot here, not all alone either, a great group effort, with Boomy and many others contributing greatly to the cause. Each being a welcome part of the effort with many great ideas so my hat is off to all of you guys, whom without you I would be still scratching my hair out!

More to come, not done by a long shot! While some will not be terminals, I am getting ready to finish up soon, next week I think now, the primer test that Sam and I started months ago. I have many terminals coming up, in particular new BBW#13s in .474 and North Forks in .474. So there is work to be done.

Michael

IMHO any animal would be proud to be killed by such pretty bullets--



SSR

I know for my part it would make a big difference to me if I was hit with a ugly bullet or a pretty bullet! Just as soon not try out either myself! LOL........

Hey, food for thought, take the shot???





Oppps, better not take the shot!




No I was not going to shoot this hippo, I just thought it was a good photo and was amazed at when I was processing the photos that the little one was so well hidden!

Michael

I spent most of the day on the range, from about 7:30 this morning to 1:30 this afternoon! Whew, tired! Mostly doing pressure traces with the 458 B&M, 450 BBW#13 Solids and 450 BBW#13 NonCons, I have been wiped out of 480 BBW#13 Solids--Lionhunter and his partner Carl wiped me out of those, and by the way, I think they are in Africa now, hunting elephant and other critters, with BBW#13s, 480 and 450 NonCons! Can't wait to hear from them!

I did manage to do the terminals with the 475 B&M Super Short and the 350 CEB BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 320 NonCon today. Boring--excellent performance as normal! I did get a bit more penetration out of the solid than I expected, for such a small .474 caliber bullet? I expected something around 45 inches or less! Surprise. ?? Don't know, but it was consistent. Had one get a tiny bit off course, but of little or no consequence.








Michael

it's always good to get more data. Thank you.

I have a question on the chronographs.
I ran BC calculations on those velocities and came up with .050BC.
If those chronographs are correct then those bullets are losing 100 fps per 20 yards.

The 423 cal in 350 gr looks great. Would be ideal for the 10.75X68.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
it's always good to get more data. Thank you.

I have a question on the chronographs.
I ran BC calculations on those velocities and came up with .050BC.
If those chronographs are correct then those bullets are losing 100 fps per 20 yards.

Tanz

The actual distance between chronographs is 17-18 yds. Muzzle to impact is 22 yds. BC is low, but depending on the G factor I would think more around .135-.149 or so.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
it's always good to get more data. Thank you.

I have a question on the chronographs.
I ran BC calculations on those velocities and came up with .050BC.
If those chronographs are correct then those bullets are losing 100 fps per 20 yards.

Tanz

The actual distance between chronographs is 17-18 yds. Muzzle to impact is 22 yds. BC is low, but depending on the G factor I would think more around .135-.149 or so.

Michael

Yes, I used 18 yards for calculations. The main point is that by 100 yards a bullet will lose about 500 fps, and at 200 yards, maybe 1000fps, something for some of us to take into consideration. This is not very relevant at 50 yards, of course. Mainly, we want Dan/CEB to be thinking about secant/tangent and semi-spitzer short-tipped or HP non-cons.

Tanz

Yep, no doubt, long range is not a BBW#13 strong point. It is an up close and personal bullet, both solid and NonCon. The added tip in my opinion sorts that issue out completely, with the only issue of over all length, and not being able to use in the magazine. For magazine use, yes, it's going to be a different bullet for sure. But I would be very careful of the small cavities and getting TOO pointy. That's why I want Dan to run those by here first, before you long range shooters take them to the field! As in the 416 you are talking to him about.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Tanz

Yep, no doubt, long range is not a BBW#13 strong point. It is an up close and personal bullet, both solid and NonCon. The added tip in my opinion sorts that issue out completely, with the only issue of over all length, and not being able to use in the magazine. For magazine use, yes, it's going to be a different bullet for sure. But I would be very careful of the small cavities and getting TOO pointy. That's why I want Dan to run those by here first, before you long range shooters take them to the field! As in the 416 you are talking to him about.

Michael

Thank you. Yes, we look forward to tests, both in .416 and in .500" and .510". We won't leave home without them.

When and if my son and I get a 50 cal. to Africa we would like bullets that keep reasonable speeds and energy out to 300 yards. It's just the way we've always hunted.

PS: did you notice that I dropped my typical "400yard" statement for the 50 cal? We've almost never (very very rarely) shot over 300 yards in any calibre, so why even mention that in what would be our slowest calibre? Even 200 yards is long in alot of situations in Africa, but we would want a 500 capable of that without further thought.

Tanz

Oh I have taken notice of everything you say, make no mistake. I concur, 200 yds is a long way and I used to keep a data base on ALL animals taken, it averaged between 125-150 yds. Not including DG of course. Which is all short range. Getting past 50 yds is very long in that dept.

As for the .510s, we went with traditional weights there, solids at 570 and the NonCon just happened to be 535. Oh for sure, one could easy duplicate the .500s I have done and do .510s along the same lines, and it be very successful. Problem is, all my stock is invested in .500 caliber, for the B&Ms and the 500 MDM. I have but one .510, that big 12 lb Ruger 510 Wells, and it's a useless thing, other than being an excellent test rifle for the .510 bullets. Not being a Winchester it is doomed to the rack, never to go to the field, being that the case, and having little vested interest in .510 over the .500, then I am not likely to work up enough personal interest in lighter .510 caliber bullets to invest my $$ in playing with them. Of course, without issue, should someone want to invest in lighter .510s I have a tool in which to test and evaluate them. Since having 5 different .500 caliber cartridges, then my personal interest is with that.

Michael

Here's an idea that has been bubbling--

what about making plastic tips that are hollow?
They could sit in a largish metal HP meplat, but would not risk plugging up the hollowpoint on impact because the tip itself would be 2/3 hollow.

Just a thought.

Tanzan,
Most plastics will either shatter or go liquid at high impact.
I dont think it will be a problem either way.
We used to fill hollow points with wax to get the hydraulic effect to open them faster, back in the day.

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Tanzan,
Most plastics will either shatter or go liquid at high impact.
I dont think it will be a problem either way.
We used to fill hollow points with wax to get the hydraulic effect to open them faster, back in the day.

Cheers, John

thanks, sounds good.
I was just thinking of the headless tip example that Michael had, and the still puzzling reports of 'small exit holes' where internal damage was massive.

If the numbers make sense it would be cool if CEB could partner up with a machine shop with a CNC lathe in South Africe to manufacture and sell the bullets there to make getting these bullets in the hands of PH's and international customers going on safari. CEB Inernational I don't know about setting up a business in SA but the programing is done so upload the program to a CNC and spin some brass. Would that be a good business plan?

Boomy

CEB International! Well, bullets are needed everywhere, no doubt about it. And Africa is what the BBW#13s are all about, not completely, but a large part. But that is out of my area and left to others. Like a good selfish sort of chap--"I got mine, how'd you make out?" HEH......... Or at least, have them on the way!

Michael

Testing has been a little slim the last few weeks. Lord knows we have damn near tested anything and everything of any substance. I doubt there is much left of any real substance to do. Of course, with the exception of something new on the market, new North Fork or CEB prototypes, or a new cartridge like the 475 B&M Super Short, and 475 B&M with new never before seen bullets, that we currently have and have been doing a bit of. And speaking of that, I had 3 conventional bullets that I tested yesterday in the 475 B&M Super Short. These are ready available, cheap alternatives for the 475 B&M Super Short, and they turned out rather well in fact, let me show you.

First a light weight 325 Speer Gold Dot. Looks like to me this would make a good all around do light work sorta bullet, great deer type bullet for sure. It held together amazingly well, remember these are primarily designed for the big bore handguns, I am quite sure the 475 B&M Super Short is running them much faster than the handguns can, although I have near zero experience in that arena. This turned out to be a very good bullet!




Then we have the 400 gr Hornady HP. These are some bullets I have had around for many years, first for the old 470 Capsticks I have as a cheap light weight bullet to play with. Never really did much there because of having so many issues with the Capsticks. So I used the remainder up in getting some load data and this in the 475 B&M Super Short. Hornady may have changed this bullet some since I bought these, I don't know. But the Super Short is able to get them right to the point of where they start to break up. 1 out of 4 broke at this impact velocity, so it is close. Dropping velocity by 100 fps would solve that issue with this bullet. Or, just don't shoot anything under 20 yds, keep the velocity, and once the bullet would get to 50 yds, then it is good to go! But that is sorta hard to do in some cases, eh?




I think Sam dropped off both the 325 and this 400 gr Speer Gold Dots. I know I did not purchase them, so I am sure he must have. I can report at top velocities the 475 Super Short can run them too, they are damn good conventional bullets! I would not hesitate to use them for "ALMOST" anything the 475 B&M Super Short is capable of taking on. Really bigger things and most important things, I would rather have the BBW#13s and the North Forks, that is what they are for. But for general purpose these Speers look very good!




Michael

Doc M,

I was noticing that the blades on the BBW#13 HP sheared at 2 inches.
I was wondering if an alloy change might make it go a bit deeper before shearing.
I was thinking bronze with the hollow point extending down to the crimp groove to ensure a shear point. You might even try some with the hollow point a little shallow of that to delay it further.
I am thinking very high velocity on very large game here.

Just a thought
John

I never recovered a 400 grain Speer Gold Dot on hogs. All pass throughs and one was about 2.5 feet of penetration. Shot at 2,400 fps
Farthest shot was 100 yards.

Phats

I am very reluctant to play with the depth the blades shear at. After doing some critter shooting now, those blades are doing damned near perfect, they are shearing roughly the same or close to the same in animal tissue as they do in the test medium, sending the blades away from center in all directions, and they are tearing vital tissues to shreds. At the point of shearing they are tearing great big gaping holes in lungs, and heart tissue, of course depending on entry point, and the destruction is enormous in both. Then tapering off to individuals after that. Really can't see much point in screwing around with it. Of course, with the exception of the Carnivore, which in my vision will be the most wicked thin skinned DG bullet ever.


Boomy, you are and have used the .475 400 Gold Dot? What in? Sounds like maybe a Capstick? 2.5 feet, 30 inches of animal penetration? Hmmmm, right at my "Rule of Thumb" from 80%-100% of the test medium sounds like to me!


Michael

Capstick? Nah!
470 AccRel!
Should be awesome in the 475 B&M.

Hell, I want to see how big the exit hole was on that pig!
Why do I get the feeling he didn't run very far...lol

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Capstick? Nah!
470 AccRel!
Should be awesome in the 475 B&M.

Oh please, forgive me, you have one? Did I know that? Gees Boomy, you know my brain is fried most of the time!

If you have one of these, then why have you not needed some of these new .474s I have, North Forks and BBW#13s? If it were me, I would have been all over these.

Yes, I am looking forward very much to the 475 B&M, with these new bullets in .474 it is going to be a hammer of a cartridge I think. I think that I might even be shooting one this week! Maybe! Checked with Brian on Friday--Still no new stainless or anything else 1:10 .474 barrels in yet! DAMN!!!!!!! I am to the point I need that new stainless gun! BAD!!!!

M

It was my favorite shot ever.
I think the guys thought it was lost as this little 100 LB hog could run! His mistake was taking a right on the ridge at about 100 yards and I did that calculation of leading a fast pig, bullet drop with a low BC bullet and pulled the trigger and a half second later the pig acted like it got hit by thors hammer and skidded nose first. Whoops and hollers and high fives and "Good shot Boomie" later from the guys a close investigation I was shocked to see his guts come out the other side right behind the shoulder and I was like damn that was like 2.5' of penetration and still exited! I took a pic of that. I think "Lucky" was the next hog a 350 pounder by my estimation. We call him lucky because other than being deaf after nine shots he got away. No was not me ! Sorry that was just too good of a memory you know who you are

I got my 475 stainless 1 in 10 twist barrel from Pac-Nor. Next hunt I would want nothing else!
I think a 400 grain non con normal or switcheroo at 2,400 to 2,600 would be pretty sweet on anything but the big 3

Boomy we are waiting on PacNor barrels, appears they are behind in production for some time now. I am personally excited about the 475 B&M, more so than I have been in some time now. I want to get to work on load data and pressure traces to see where I can take it. I need that stainless rifle up and running!

Michael

Michael,
Penny from Pac-Nor just gave me a 90-day estimate on delivery o my 9" twist barrels - the .423 will manufacture in early October (mid-July order) and the .500 will manufacture in early November (mid-August order)...and new twist buttons have to be made for each first. When was your .475 barrel ordered?

Jim

Seems forever ago the barrels were ordered, but probably a couple of months now.

???

M

Michael, any updates on the switcheroo ?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Michael, any updates on the switcheroo ?

Maybe!