quote:

I have doubts that a ball can give us anything beyond something to play with

Even having a plated tungsten ball is a waste of time - you still end up with too low a SD value versus a bullet . Not enough weight behind the frontal area. A smart way to lower bullet weight for a given bore size and thus momentum, not to mention a low BC and a much worse trajectory than a bullet.

Warrior

Warrior, I agree with you, we are just playing with balls...but it is interesting, and the gain of knowledge from this would be both fascinating and entertaining, not to mention anecdotal to the cause.

Thing is, the weight of the tungsten balls is more then most seem to think...it makes a .9" long .44" FN over 600 grains...it's 65%+ heavier then pure lead, and is more then double the weight of steel and brass, yet very hard and nearly perfectly round (not machined). Yes, the cost is high, but not ridiculous, around 2$ before plating.

So let's say this TB would run around 400 grains, guessing, then the SD is close to the FN's, but shorter and more stable (really, how much stability does a round ball need...) and would really show some good data for the concepts stated within. RN all the way! No turning, yawing, deforming or tumbling. It would certainly show if the round nose causes veering, Shoulder stability vs dart stability, and can you imagine the increase in powder capacity and ease of loading! Would certainly bring the big bore rifle world full circle.

Edit: not sure on the BC. Not that it matters at 15 yards, where this is most important, but a round ball is quite efficient at lower speeds, especially subsonic, vs FN's...but it's moot.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Warrior, I agree with you, we are just playing with balls...but it is interesting.

Sounds a little kinky to me!!!!!

Yep... balls of tungsten with a copper jacket can be driven faster and no yaw, bending, deforming, tumbling ect. Under 100 yards who cares about bad BC

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Warrior, I agree with you, we are just playing with balls...but it is interesting, and the gain of knowledge from this would be both fascinating and entertaining, not to mention anecdotal to the cause.

Thing is, the weight of the tungsten balls is more then most seem to think...it makes a .9" long .44" FN over 600 grains...it's 65%+ heavier then pure lead, and is more then double the weight of steel and brass, yet very hard and nearly perfectly round (not machined). Yes, the cost is high, but not ridiculous, around 2$ before plating.

So let's say this TB would run around 550 grains, guessing, then the SD is about the same as those heavy FN's, but shorter and more stable (really, how much stability does a round ball need...) and would really show some good data for the concepts stated within. RN all the way! No turning, yawing, deforming or tumbling. It would certainly show if the round nose causes veering, Shoulder stability vs dart stability, and can you imagine the increase in powder capacity and ease of loading! Would certainly bring the big bore rifle world full circle.

Edit: not sure on the BC. Not that it matters at 15 yards, where this is most important, but a round ball is quite efficient at lower speeds, especially subsonic, vs FN's...but it's moot.

I don't know about you but when a girl... oh never mind

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Warrior, I agree with you, we are just playing with balls...but it is interesting.

Sounds a little kinky to me!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I don't know about you but when a girl... oh never mind

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Warrior, I agree with you, we are just playing with balls...but it is interesting.

Sounds a little kinky to me!!!!!

Girls are just fine by me...

A .5" tungsten ball with jacket would be about 300 grains and would penetrate well. An expanded 375 bullet with good SD is 300 grains and expands more!!! expanded softs measure about .75"

When testing is done for penetration the 140 grain .5" brass balls @ 2700 should act like 7-08 terminally I predict.

So there I was, right...

Boomy, just wanted to mention something to you. The alloy of tungsten can be veried from 18.5 g/cc down to 12.5 g/cc or so, with the latter just slightly heavier then lead, and the prior being heavier then most FN's. If we are talking 470, then over 300 grains, near 350 in .500-510.

.

ooops...was a bit off there (man, and I was all excited). Think you are about right, around 330 grains for a .510 TB. My bad Boomy, my bad.

So Michael, what's the weight of those brass balls?

A 300 grain 500 ish diameter bullet should penetrate like a 375 soft and have a decent damage path driven 2500 +

Well Boomy I still have not solved the velocity issue in the 50 Super Short! Put wads in between the powder and ball, made zero difference. I can't explain the velocity curves last week, never seen anything like that in all me shooting days! But regardless of velocity issues, I needed to test anyway and did. See below, not bad. No real trauma induced at the velocity of impact.







Engraving looks good, ball is not sliding, or rolling, one complete band of grooves all the way around!

I will work on it again next week, and I will quit messing around and put it in the 50 B&M and see what happens!

Michael

Guess you're looking at the anemic velocity? Try a plastic cup and a harder wad. Too much blow-by and minimal piston area. Could machine some custom if you wanna optimize ...

Interesting Michael..
But when you quit playing around with those balls, please do remember to do more testing of the 500 grs Hornady DGS in the 458 Lott

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Interesting Michael..
But when you quit playing around with those balls, please do remember to do more testing of the 500 grs Hornady DGS in the 458 Lott

Buffalo

I like that little tickle while playing with...........Oh, never mind, this is Big Bores, wrong place, confused for a second!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Guess you're looking at the anemic velocity? Try a plastic cup and a harder wad. Too much blow-by and minimal piston area. Could machine some custom if you wanna optimize ...

J, I know your balls would be better, no doubt about it! But not sure that it's worth the effort in the long run. You are 100% correct, I am getting blown by............Damn, wrong site again, let me see........no, this is the TBP thread, I'm in the wrong place again!

Seeing the barrel grab the balls with engraving like that is a good sign indeed.

Maybe one or two thou oversize will solve that problem of blow by over 2,700 fps.

I am guessing at 3,000 FPS velocity close to 20" of penetration could be had so piggies and deer beware!

So the balls blew the wad out with the same velocity?

Try shooting a bigger wad?

Enough already with the "balls"! Back to real work! Boomy, next step with the "balls" 50 B&M!!! Forget the Super Short, go up a step! Just talked with Jeffe and he sparked some ideas! So hold on!

I got the .510 taken care of today! 570 gr Hornady DGS and 570 gr Barnes Banded! First up the Hornady! If you recall, we tested one in Sam's double, very good straight line penetration all the way. We think Sam's twist rate is 1:15. I Know the twist rate in the 510 Wells is for sure 1:15. Sam and I tested only one bullet. Today I sent two more into the mix, and 1:15 is not quite enough to stabilize 100% of the time, a 55% meplat for caliber. It's trying hard, but still shows signs of instability. Regardless of this, it does still give enough straight line penetration to do an excellent job in the field!

I can tell you why this 55% meplat for caliber exists, and why the Hornady Nose Profile!

It feeds in the Ruger action without any modifications! This is why! This is the ONLY FN solid that has ever fed in my Ruger Mag action in 510 Wells!

I would venture to say that if this rifle had 1:12 twist it would stabilize the Hornady better for sure. But again remember, that even it's worst today is still enough in the field. But if I were taking it to the field, I would be sure to test a few more to find out if I had found the worst it could do!

What ever happened to the "50 Sarah" test Boss ...??

There will be NO SLEEP in the "BBBC" tonight! What, "BBBC", what the hell is that???

"Barnes Banded Bashing Club"

Well not too many of those around anymore I think. Results pretty much speak for themselves!


This is one of the deepest divers I have tested. I think only one bullet was in this category and that is the 320 9.3 Woodleigh. These lost stability at 70 inches, end of penetration, both bullets found in the same sheet of paper at 74". Remember, with me, only straight line counts however.

One more point about the Barnes Banded, it will not even begin to feed in the Ruger 510 Wells! Dead stop before it can jump out of the magazine.

I think we are seeing something start to show up over time. It's meplat size. Percentage of meplat for caliber is showing up I believe, not confirmed but more of an educated theory. I am beginning to lean heavy towards 65%-70% meplat of caliber being optimum size for self stabilization and depth of penetration combined. As most all the Barnes Banded solids 416 caliber and up falling in with a 65% meplat, or best as I can measure them. Our North Forks coming in at 70%. I would think that the GS Customs are right around this too. Our very own Agent J's broad meplat on his bullet comes in at a full 75% meplat for caliber. Now you all know I don't put a lot of faith in Sectional Density when it comes to the Flat Nose designs, and I don't here either. While SD might account for some difference between 535 grs and 570 grs, I do not believe it is the lead factor. I think we are seeing more of a factor with larger meplat slowing the bullet faster and retarding "depth" of penetration with an above 70% meplat for caliber. I might be wrong on this, educated theory mind you. Yes, some SD is a factor. Now do not read too much into this, this is not Black and White, other factors come into play!

For instance, the SH Precision bullet with the large meplat hits the medium with tremendous impact and transfer of trauma, far more so than the Barnes did, and no comparison with any of the others I have tested, which does not include the North Forks in this caliber. The SH Precision bullet penetrated more than enough to do ANY JOB EVER required of it in the field, and 100% dead straight as an arrow. Today if I had to chose one bullet for the 510 that I have tested it would be the SH Precision bullet over the others. Why, best of both worlds, life is a compromise and so are bullets. It still gives more than enough penetration for anything, but it hits harder up front than any of the other bullets. This bullet would slam the hell out of buffalo and elephant with that 75% meplat. What it might give up in total depth of penetration, it gains in trauma transfer.

One other point to ponder is that I have not run these bullets to the full potential of the 510 Wells either. Running rather average velocities of 2200 to 2275 fps with 570s and 535s. Velocity could be increased easy another 100-150 fps overall, penetration with all would also increase.

As far as I know now, this concludes testing of solids in .510 unless someone wants me to do something else, these are all the available bullets I have in .510 caliber.

M

Michael,

Crimp them balls in! No wonder you are getting velocity variations with no crimp. The ball just doesn't offer much resistance. A thought anyway.

Velocity isn't always best! I see my 500NE did better at lower velocity the your 510 Wells. Interesting! I still think the twist in my gun is slower that 1-15. I will check it soon.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
What ever happened to the "50 Sarah" test Boss ...??

EH?---50 Sarah???

50 Alaskan .....

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Crimp them balls in! No wonder you are getting velocity variations with no crimp. The ball just doesn't offer much resistance. A thought anyway.

Velocity isn't always best! I see my 500NE did better at lower velocity the your 510 Wells. Interesting! I still think the twist in my gun is slower that 1-15. I will check it soon.

Sam

Yeah, I know, need to crimp in some, you know I never have to crimp those 50s! So not used to it.. But that is it I am sure, Jeffe suggested the same! I don't know where my mind is?

No, no way your rifle is less than 1:15! Who in the world would have put a faster twist on that double???? I bet standard 1:15. But you check it and see! No, we should have tested more than 1 bullet in the 500 Nitro! It did do well however did it not? If you do in fact have a faster twist, that does answer that question!
M

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
50 Alaskan .....

Jesus J--Sarah, ok I am with you! Where is my mind??????? Damn, got a case of dumbass going on today!

Yes, ok I have that to about 1850 fps, in the AK, will that do??

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
50 Alaskan .....

Jesus J--Sarah, ok I am with you! Where is my mind??????? Damn, got a case of dumbass going on today!

Yes, ok I have that to about 1850 fps, in the AK, will that do??

Works for me ...

J

I had not forgotten the AK. I think some time ago I wanted to get the velocity up a bit from where I stopped years ago with a 535 which was around 1700 or so. So I bumped it up with the useless Woodleighs I have laying around (FMJs) and I am at 1850 or so with them. I think I asked, but don't remember if 1850 was suitable??? Rifle is set up and ready, I can probably do that tomorrow in fact. If I don't forget between now and then????

Now, from you expert opinion, do you concur with where I am going with the meplat size?

M

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Interesting Michael..
But when you quit playing around with those balls, please do remember to do more testing of the 500 grs Hornady DGS in the 458 Lott

Buffalo

Yes, a more proper answer required! I will be back on the 500 gr Hornady DGS in 458 Lott next week! Don't let me forget, seems my mind is going. But that was schedule, after the .510s, back on the 500 DGS 458 Lott!

I will try and refrain from playing with my big brass balls in between!

M

Where were we on the meplat dialogue? Mmmmm ... yes - those round balls don't have enough meplat!!



Get what you can out of the 50 Sarah. There are a couple guys who've queried me regarding loading the .510" x 535 SHARRC for Alaskan varmint hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Think I'm loopy from some pain meds I'm taking. Where were we on the meplat dialogue? Mmmmm ... yes - those round balls don't have enough meplat!!



Get what you can out of the 50 Sarah. There are a couple guys who've queried me regarding loading the .510" x 535 SHARRC for Alaskan varmint hunting.

I can take that velocity up if you want. I figured that would be where about most of the guys with 50 AK would run them, so was trying to be within that. But I might not have figured correctly either??? Tell me where we need to be?

Can you imagine trying to get the meplat loaded straight up on a round ball? Hmmmmmm?????

NOw I know in CA it 's still early! But it is dark here nearly and being the hillbilly I am it's past my bedtime, so I am going to go now!

Tell me velocity on the 50 AK!

M

What kind of pain meds? I love good pain meds!

Radial meplat?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Think I'm loopy from some pain meds I'm taking. Where were we on the meplat dialogue? Mmmmm ... yes - those round balls don't have enough meplat!!



Get what you can out of the 50 Sarah. There are a couple guys who've queried me regarding loading the .510" x 535 SHARRC for Alaskan varmint hunting.

What is a .458 B&M?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
What kind of pain meds? I love good pain meds!

Faster is better but keep it in the realm of safety eh? These guys are shooting #1's so doubt pressure will be an issue.

OK you guys were right the twist in my Demas 500NE is 1-15 just checked it. I sure thought it was slower than that.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
What is a .458 B&M?

Demonical

458 B&M is a cartridge I developed that works in a Winchester M70 WSM action with short 18-20 inch barrels. It's the full equal of 458 Winchester, only in a much smaller package.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...191044231#6191044231



Macifej

I will see if I can bump it up a bit then. You need to make the AK crowd a lighter bullet for them, around 450 grs would be good I would think!


Sam

I would never, ever not even consider saying "I told you so". HEH. No man, I don't know. I think it was RIP, but someone said the old standby twist has been 1:15. Then when I asked Brian, they had put 1:15 on the 510 Wells and the 50 AKs I have. So I figured yours is probably that too, or at least until we found out different. What I think would happen is that had we tested some more of those in your gun, it would have been the same thing, one would come short, one would go long. The .510 Hornady DGS is doing it's best, it's trying hard, but with 55% meplat it just can't quite get there in the test medium. In the world it will do just fine and give plenty of penetration to do the job. But if it had a faster twist, or larger meplat, it would be up there with the big dogs, but then it would not feed in unaltered Rugers with a larger meplat!

M

Michael,

Yes I knew 1-15 was standard twist for 50BMG but just figured that in the double it would have been slower. I guess Demas had a good idea to use this twist in the 500NE. I'm sure older guns probably have a slower twist in this caliber. I'LL just have to bring your baby back down and we can test it some more. I will work up some faster loads closer to what the 500NE is supposed to do 2050fps to 2150fps. I might make some of those brass bullets for it also.

Sam

Michael - was diameter of the 570 Barnes banded solids only .508" ????