quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I've never had a problem getting all the various 9.3 bullet weights
shooting to the same POI from 9.3 x 64 and 74, and a couple of mates
are the same in the 62.

It's a bit like the 375H&H, very flexible.

500N

I think you may be correct. I have to look at my file on the 9.3 B&M, of course everything is at 50 on that, but for me if POI is good at 50, it's not going to be that bad at 100. I used to shoot 358 STA a lot. I had a 250 Hornady, 280 Swift, and 310 gr Woodleighs all hitting very close at 100, the 250 Hornady 1.5 inches high, the 280 Swift about 3/4 inch high and the 310s at center, windage perfect, all at 100. I am sure we can get various 9.3s to do the same, just have to fool with it a bit is all.

M

Being a Crockett scholar, I reckon Billy Bob Thornton was a creditable facsimile of Davy in that last Alamo flick,
surely closer than Fess Parker, R.I.P.
Davy was a medium-sized guy with a mouth as heroic as the rest of his life.
But he did not wear a vial of Angelina Jolie's blood on a necklace.

Yep, deer and pigs ain't big moose and buffalo.

I want to do some .458/400gr Barnes Busters at 2000 fps in a 10" twist and a 20" twist soon as I can.
Then look out 450-grainers, here I come!

Tell Brian I will look at the SSK Facebook page when I get my rifle.

RIP

Somehow, I knew you would know these things about ole Davy! Excellent!

I bet I know exactly what the busters will do in 1:10!

Your rifle has no stock on it does it? I would make him put it there! I had to send him lot's of rifle photos Friday afternoon, so I imagine he will play facebook this week sometime!

Michael

As promised Buffalo--500 gr 458 caliber Hornady DGS!





Well in this 458 Lott and at muzzle velocity of 2200 fps the 500 gr Hornady DGS seems to be stable. This is 5 bullets tested now, 4 of them past 60 + inches dead straight, 1 took a turn at 51 inches. All good, even 51 inches is far more than enough to do anything you want.

However, all you boys out there remember, this is 1:14 twist rates! I figure 1:14 is about as slow as you can go and get this! I know 1:18 will not stabilize the meplat size of the DGS's. I am sure 1:10 to 1:12 would do even better, I doubt penetration would be deeper, but there would be less doubt about stability at 1:10 or 1:12.

I want to test this bullet now in the 458 B&M at it's lower velocity of 2130 fps or so. Velocity also can play a factor. Then I might even take the velocity even lower, 1800 fps or so and see what happens there. Don't let me forget this, as I probably will.

Gotta have at least 1:14 twist rate, if so the 458-500 Hornady DGS is good to go at Lott velocity.

Michael

Dave
I owe you a trauma report from the Witness Cards on the 470 500 gr Hawk and the 458 400 Gr Hawk








Witness cards for expanding bullets are placed inside the test medium at 4 inches. What you see here is a lot of trauma placed on the cards. The 470 500 gr Hawk is about as much trauma as I have seen on anything tested.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I've never had a problem getting all the various 9.3 bullet weights
shooting to the same POI from 9.3 x 64 and 74, and a couple of mates
are the same in the 62.

It's a bit like the 375H&H, very flexible.

500N

I think you may be correct. I have to look at my file on the 9.3 B&M, of course everything is at 50 on that, but for me if POI is good at 50, it's not going to be that bad at 100. I used to shoot 358 STA a lot. I had a 250 Hornady, 280 Swift, and 310 gr Woodleighs all hitting very close at 100, the 250 Hornady 1.5 inches high, the 280 Swift about 3/4 inch high and the 310s at center, windage perfect, all at 100. I am sure we can get various 9.3s to do the same, just have to fool with it a bit is all.

M

Well, when I tested the 9.3 PP Woodleigh bullets before they first came out, I had to make sure all shot to the same POI as I can't stand making adjustments / compensations in the field and they were tested on Buffalo and virtually all shots were under 100 yards - so it was important to me to have them on as some shots were damn close.

I found it quite easy to do (get them to the same POI), even though I had the complicating factor of having rounds from low (1900 fps) to high (above what turned out to be the Recommended Impact Velocity).

Just seems to be one of those calibre's.

All 3 of us have 64's, 62's and 74's and all use multiple Bullet weights without
a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Dave
I owe you a trauma report from the Witness Cards on the 470 500 gr Hawk and the 458 400 Gr Hawk








Witness cards for expanding bullets are placed inside the test medium at 4 inches. What you see here is a lot of trauma placed on the cards. The 470 500 gr Hawk is about as much trauma as I have seen on anything tested.

Wow! Now, that's cool

Dave

I know that this is a beast of a thread and I can't remember what page is what. But if you go back through midway or so you will see many examples of the witness cards to compare with. Give you some ideas about it anyway.

That is excellent Michael.. Thanks a lot(t)..

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As promised Buffalo--500 gr 458 caliber Hornady DGS!





Well in this 458 Lott and at muzzle velocity of 2200 fps the 500 gr Hornady DGS seems to be stable. This is 5 bullets tested now, 4 of them past 60 + inches dead straight, 1 took a turn at 51 inches. All good, even 51 inches is far more than enough to do anything you want.

However, all you boys out there remember, this is 1:14 twist rates! I figure 1:14 is about as slow as you can go and get this! I know 1:18 will not stabilize the meplat size of the DGS's. I am sure 1:10 to 1:12 would do even better, I doubt penetration would be deeper, but there would be less doubt about stability at 1:10 or 1:12.

I want to test this bullet now in the 458 B&M at it's lower velocity of 2130 fps or so. Velocity also can play a factor. Then I might even take the velocity even lower, 1800 fps or so and see what happens there. Don't let me forget this, as I probably will.

Gotta have at least 1:14 twist rate, if so the 458-500 Hornady DGS is good to go at Lott velocity.

Michael

Buffalo

Very welcome, sorry it took me so long to get to the second go around in the tests.


Now, How about some North Fork CPS Work???? Anyone interested in that? I am!

CPS?? Cup Point Solids! Has a little cup, or even a hollow cavity in the nose of an otherwise normal North Fork Solid. Cup is not cut or slitted for expansion. I consider these sort of bullets for sure Non Conventional. However a bit different from our brass and other copper hollow points that I have been using from Lehigh. No petals to shear or break and the bullet remains 100% intact and retains 100% of it's original weight. An excellent concept I think, one that I am going to explore even more over the coming weeks.

Of course I have motives that drive me, and one of those motives is that I am always on the lookout for a bullet that will enhance what I do with my B&M series rifles and cartridges. One of my favorites is my 458 B&M, so most of the time I use one of those to do test work with, in particular if a bullet might enhance it's abilities in the field. These bullets do just that. So I purchased their 325 gr CPS, 350 gr CPS, and 450 gr CPS. I did not get the 500 gr CPS as that is a bit long for the 458 B&M case, and the 450 is perfect for that case capacity. But my particular interests were more in the 325 and 350 gr weights.

Being like other Non Conventional bullets I feel like velocity is all important with these. More velocity, better performance. After just a little test work I still think that is going to hold true, but this is one of the things I want to investigate in the coming weeks with these.

So let's get started.

The lineup is as follows (a little playing with the photos makes the 458 B&M Look Bigger HEH)


OK OK, heres another.


First up, 325 gr North Fork CPS


One expanded a bit more than the other, but penetration was very close, basically the same. Performance was excellent, penetration was very deep when compared to other "Conventional" bullets, which leaves some questions in our "Conventional" wisdom concerning bullets. Let us remember that big expanding 458 caliber bullets, Swifts, Woodleighs, even TSX bullets 450-500 gr bullets normally penetrate from 18-22 inches in the same mix! Now we have a tiny little 325 gr bullet going dead to 26 Inches? What is our "Conventional" thoughts on this matter? Exactly Right! That's why these are NonCons at their best, doing what they do best, Non Conventional things! LOL. Gotta wrap your mind around this as one has to do so with the phenomenal penetration of our flat nose solids! New bullet tech! In other words since we know for a fact that a 450-500 gr Swifts, Woodleighs, TSX's and so forth are hammers on buffalo and penetrate from 18-22 inches in this medium, and now we have a 325 gr bullet out penetrated all our near conventional buff bullets, what are we to consider? I don't know, but if I was out playing shoot the kudu with these and the opportunity presented itself then I would take the shot myself and have pretty good confidence that it would get to where it needs to be. Now I ain't saying let's all load up and take 325 gr North Forks buffalo hunting, not at all, but I really can't see why they would not work just dandy if you ran into that situation while hunting something else with them? It will be my intention when I go back to Australia for a buffalo shoot, I am going to take some of these and give them a go on those buffalo! I have to know! Hell, I already know!

Michael

OK Advertisement time HEH---Is that 458 B&M a good looking Cartridge? Oh yes, I think so! But better still is the platform it is on!

Next, 350 North Fork CPS.




Same story here, remember what I said earlier about Non Conventional bullets being tied closely with velocity? Here is a good example, while we have increased weight from 325 to 350 grs, the 325 running at higher velocity, penetrated a bit deeper than the 350 at lower velocity, even though SD is higher, nose profile the same, just velocity! Velocity rules with Non Conventional bullets in my opinion, whether it is the brass and copper HPs that shed petals, or these CPS by North Fork, velocity enhances performance! Not always the case with more conventional bullets, yet another concept to get sorted out in your mind about these sort of bullets!

Of no consequence the bit of difference in penetration of the 325 or 350, it is close. Both extreme with this weight bullet in 458 caliber! Performance is excellent, transfer of trauma is good, but they are about penetration and that they give!

Now let's move on to the 450 North Fork CPS.



Ok, the 458 B&M did not have enough velocity to get these to open up at impacts below 2200 fps. These tried, they started, as you can see in the second photograph. But if the 458 B&M could not get enough velocity for them to open, neither will the 458 Winchester. I look at 450 gr 458 caliber bullets as 458 Winchester, or 458 B&M capacity cartridges primary big bullet for the heavies. Both can churn respectable velocities with this weight to accomplish the mission on buffalo, hippo, and elephant with good solids. So I would expect this bullet to operate at the velocity a 458 Winchester can produce.

If you note the cup or hollow cavity is not as deep in the 450 CPS as it is in the 325 and 350. According to this test it would indicate that North Fork could deepen the cavity, possibly even a little more so than the 325 and 350 and get better performance from this bullet, at even lower velocities. This being of course if that is the intended purpose of the 450 CPS.

Now here is the catch! The "light bulb" came on immediately after this test! It takes a bit, but most of the time I get there with a little shove from time to time. I am sure we all recall 465HHs concerns about the "over penetration" of our current solids? I do not share his concerns at all, and personally I can't see ever limiting straight line penetration at all. I have gone over this on this thread, and will not revisit that. However, always willing to assist my fellow shooters on any endeavor, here is the solution to 465 HH's issue with over penetration!

I have now tested this, and a few other slightly cup pointed solids. The others were not designed to expand at all. What they do is "LIMIT" penetration in most cases.

Point in fact! Take a look at the 458 Caliber 450 North Fork Solid.


The same nose profile 70% meplat for caliber, penetrates the same medium to 53 inches dead straight. The cup point to 40 inches. 13 Inches is significant in this test medium.

Now also recall only a few weeks ago Sam and I tested the 577 Nitro and a couple of bullets he turned himself. Everything exactly the same, but one of those bullets had the very slightest depression in the nose, very slight, not even a cup per say. The Flat Nose version penetrated 54 inches, the other 45 inches, 9 inches difference, and all because of the nose design. With the slight cup "LIMITING" penetration!!!!!!


David from Lehigh sent some cup points (only a couple) way back when in the exact same configuration as my .500 caliber 510 Solids. Deeper cut than Sams bullet, not so much as the North Fork. In the ONE test I did, penetration was the same, so I paid it no more attention. But this was at velocity of 2100 fps!

Most all other experiences I see LESS penetration, as we do with the North Fork and the Sam version in the 577. Now 465 HH, if you are truly concerned about Over Penetration, here is your answer my friend, a Cup Point will still penetrate dead straight, with the edges acting as meplat, penetration will be less than what a conventional Flat Nose solid would be. Now it won't come easy, and there will be work to be done. Some experimenting and test work required to get just the right cup depth, just the right meplat, just the right material as to not expand or deform. I can see sharp edges of softer bullets deforming on elephant skulls, and penetration veering off course! So work is going to be required to get there, but this is without doubt an answer to the problem you have!

Michael

Michael,

That could be one solution. Although Mike at NF specificaly warns against using the CPS on elephant. B. Searcy has taken one or two with it though. One thing to consider based on my experiences is that it appears that round nosed solids are much less likely to penetrate through the off side hide on elphant or buffalo then FN solids. I believe this is because the FN solids are better at cutting the skin rather than trying to push through it as RN solids do. In that regard the RN solid seems to act more like a oft point. I have never had a RN solid penetrate the off side skin on elephant from the 470 or 465 Nitro. JPK has said that he gets around 50% full penetration from RN solids on body shots. I suspect that it is the difference between the SDs of about .305 for the Nitros and .341 of the 458 Win. since velocitie swere the same. Whether the CPS would penetrate the off side skin better than a RN, I have no guess. I suspect velocity and SD will come into play here.

465H&H

Michael,

Interesting, almost makes one wonder if NF designed the .458 caliber NF 450 CPS bullets for the Lott and larger case cartridges rather than the slower velocity 458 WinMag and equivalent cartridges. Perhaps you could test a few of the 450gr CPS in your Lott to determine if the cup will expand at higher velocity.

I recovered one 450gr North Fork Cup Point Solid from a Giraffe shot from my 450 No2 at 2205fps.

It was slightly deformed/expanded at the nose, no doubt due to striking bone.

We have a quandry here...
These 325 and 350 CPS from NF are spanking the competition!
They seem dual designed for the 45-70 so how about some 45-70 testing???
Would also be cool to see these light for caliber expanding solids @ 2700 fps performance wise from say a 460 Wby or 450 Rigby.
If the 325 NF CPS can get 2,000 FPS in a lowly 45-70 and get 20" of peneration while expanding there is some rethinking to do.

Boom stick:

I was wondering, have you tried any of the 300 grain TSX FB bullets in your .45-70. I have some on order and hopefully, should have them today or tomorrow to try. I am thinking that the 325 CPS bullets might be a little stout to insure reliable expansion in the .45-70.

No but Ill be interested on your results.
The 325 and 350 NF CPS seem to be designed for lower impact velocity expansion so hopefully they will expand down to 1,800 that is why I am curious for 45-70 testing. They might be best in a 450 Alaskan.

What is this the 45-70 thread now ..?? I send Doc M some 45-70 Zingers - maybe he'll have a chance to shoot a couple of those ...

Michael,

Incredible. Boom Stick was right, the 325-350CPS designs were more for hot 45/70 loads. We tested them from 1600fps to 2000fps. We never loaded them in a .458WM, but that idea did cross our mind. This is very exciting news. The 450CPS is more of a pentration limiting solid. You were at the lower end of its designed speed. They were designed for 2400fps with minimal (as you saw) expantion down to 2200. These are dangerous game bullets and were designed with maximum material integrity in mind. The worst thing that can happen to the 450gr CPS is that it mimics a solid in performance when speed does not cause it to open.

Another nice thing about the CPS series is they cut round holes in flesh that bleed very well and will not close up like holes producted by round noses, soft points, and tight hollow points.

Try loading the 325/350 CPS in your Lott and lets see what happens.

Regards,
North Fork
www.northforkbullets.com

quote:

Boom Stick was right

This makes me wonder if the blood letting holes will cause the animal to run less and be a greater advantage to not having to get yourself in a deadly situation chasing an animal in thick cover.

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Michael,

Incredible. Boom Stick was right, the 325-350CPS designs were more for hot 45/70 loads. We tested them from 1600fps to 2000fps. We never loaded them in a .458WM, but that idea did cross our mind. This is very exciting news. The 450CPS is more of a pentration limiting solid. You were at the lower end of its designed speed. They were designed for 2400fps with minimal (as you saw) expantion down to 2200. These are dangerous game bullets and were designed with maximum material integrity in mind. The worst thing that can happen to the 450gr CPS is that it mimics a solid in performance when speed does not cause it to open.

Another nice thing about the CPS series is they cut round holes in flesh that bleed very well and will not close up like holes producted by round noses, soft points, and tight hollow points.

Try loading the 325/350 CPS in your Lott and lets see what happens.

Regards,
North Fork
www.northforkbullets.com

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Boom Stick was right

And you only had to wait for 71 pages until someone said it!

If these mono metal expanding 325 and 350 NF CPS have a functional impact velocity from 1,600 to 2700 FPS and penetrate like this Michael discovered a gem of a multi purpose bullet masterminded by NF. Congrats NF and Michael.

Good 45/70 bullets for the Condor Zone as well.

We worked really hard to come up with this design. There were some real duds in its development. It all starts with the nose design, material, and bullet purpose. We always hedge our designs on penetration over anything else.

Michael took it to the next level of testing. This did worry us, but we figured, "What the hell." We have enough "crazy" customers that Michael does not even scare us anymore. It is also a much better compelling story if someone else does the testing, manufacturers can only be trusted so much.

This style of design we be moving us into the handgun hunting arena. We have a bullet for the .45 calibers that was designed from this CPS work. Others to come will be for the .44mag, .475, and .500S&W. These are the fun times of owning a bullet company.

We knew this bullet would be a winner when we started to test it last summer. While trying to get chronograph readings, we were noticing the large holes it was putting into our test media (bone, meat, and grass aka simulated animal). We couldn't get a reading from the chrony until we noticed we were covered in the stuff and the pieces coming back were causing the chrony to error. The Chrony was ~18ft from us and the media was 50yards. A 45/70 at 2000fps may not be an official dangerous game round, but this design sure does help its case.

Keep up the good work Michael.

Regards,
North Fork Technologies
www.northforkbullets.com

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
This style of design we be moving us into the handgun hunting arena. We have a bullet for the .45 calibers that was designed from this CPS work. Others to come will be for the .44mag, .475, and .500S&W. These are the fun times of owning a bullet company.

Keep up the good work Michael.

Regards,
North Fork Technologies
www.northforkbullets.com

Others to come will be for ...and 500S&W. This bodes well for Michael's 50 B&M Super Short. Will you perhaps also make .500 caliber FPS and CPS bullet in weights and velocity zoned appropriate for Michael's 50 B&M and 500 MDM cartridges?

quote:

Originally posted by ACRecurve:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Boom Stick was right

And you only had to wait for 71 pages until someone said it!

Good one Andy!

With friends like these...
OK so I am like the clock that is stopped
Im gunna have to read the 71 pages to count my right to wrong ratio lol
These 325's will be great in the 458 Super Short as well.

They looked the same from a 45-70. The 325s looked a tad more like the 350s here but about the same. I'll see if I can find some to take pics of but as I recall, functional expansion (mushroom larger than caliber) was down around 1400fps.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
We have a quandry here...
These 325 and 350 CPS from NF are spanking the competition!
They seem dual designed for the 45-70 so how about some 45-70 testing???
Would also be cool to see these light for caliber expanding solids @ 2700 fps performance wise from say a 460 Wby or 450 Rigby.
If the 325 NF CPS can get 2,000 FPS in a lowly 45-70 and get 20" of peneration while expanding there is some rethinking to do.

quote:

They seem dual designed for the 45-70 so how about some 45-70 testing???
Would also be cool to see these light for caliber expanding solids @ 2700 fps performance wise from say a 460 Wby or 450 Rigby.
If the 325 NF CPS can get 2,000 FPS in a lowly 45-70 and get 20" of peneration while expanding there is some rethinking to do.

Boomy

Hey, pay attention, the 458 B&M ran the 325 North Fork CPS at 2672 fps, that's not too far off 2700 you want from a 460 W!


Yes, we are going to play with these in 45/70, we are going up and down in velocity, and see what we see in the coming weeks.

quote:

What is this the 45-70 thread now ..?? I send Doc M some 45-70 Zingers - maybe he'll have a chance to shoot a couple of those ..

Agent J

I have those loads still on the waiting list, I am waiting for my safety gear to get in before shooting those! LOL--Full suit body armor!

quote:

Boom Stick was right

Gees North Fork, did you have to say that? Do you know what we will have to deal with now? Inflated ego, far beyond anything you can imagine! He is bad enough, now he will make me crazy!

quote:

We worked really hard to come up with this design. There were some real duds in its development. It all starts with the nose design, material, and bullet purpose. We always hedge our designs on penetration over anything else.

North Fork

I would like to address several things that you mention. First, excellent attitude, you can quote me on this, "Penetration is Everything". Without Penetration, the rest is moot! Bullet purpose! Absolutely, figure out exactly what it is you wish to accomplish, and work towards that end. I did not understand the purpose of the 450 CPS. With the 325-350 that was very clear, expansion with basically a solid, not with petals, not extreme expansion so that penetration was limited. Great concept, and it works to that end. The 450 CPS, different mission, as you defined, a "limited Penetration Solid", not specifically the same mission as the 325-350. We see this very thing right here.


Now if the mission parameters were to change, this would be easy to do, deepen the cavity for expansion at specific impact velocities, or make the cavity more shallow to get less upset, but possibly slightly deeper penetration?

quote:

Michael took it to the next level of testing. This did worry us, but we figured, "What the hell." We have enough "crazy" customers that Michael does not even scare us anymore. It is also a much better compelling story if someone else does the testing, manufacturers can only be trusted so much.

Michael Scary? Come on now I am a pretty good chap, no need to be afraid. But I ain't finished with you yet! Don't get too comfortable, this was just the first round of tests with these, I am going to bump them, beat them, grind them, roll'em, hammer them, mash'em, smash'em, put them thru blocks, LOL, and anything else I can think of! Crazy? You ain't seen crazy yet!

No man, kidding, I am going down on velocity, 45/70 velocity and twist rates, I may try some higher velocity in the lott, but I know what that is going to do, increase penetration. I think I will do some T'Rex tests with them too, but I will also be doing some more T'Rex tests as we move forward with "Conventional Expanding" and other Non Conventional bullets too! The North Fork CPS bullets will stand tall I am sure.


Now concerning the .500 caliber bullets. 5 years ago, I was still under the impression I needed weight to achieve my goals, with both expanding and solids, and in particular for buffalo, hippo, elephant. SD still had meaning to me then. Well, as we know now, SD is at the bottom of the list in the major factors involved with penetration of solids and Non Conventional bullets. Other factors take precedence over SD. Back in the day I asked Bill at Swift to make their .500s at 450 grs. Finally they are coming, but my request fell on deaf ears, as maybe it should have, they are 325 grs as I understand. Which is fine, I have a .500 rifle for every occasion and function! So I can use a 325 easy! Now, with a good North Fork CPS at any weight 300-400 or better, I will still have a rifle cartridge I can work with them in. Results will be excellent regardless. I can find a use! Velocity is the key with all the NonCons for better performance, still convinced of that until I find different. But, that does not mean that these won't work "well" at lower velocity too. Just better at higher is all. Of course I also imagine that the cavity will be deeper on the handgun designs to accommodate lower velocity????

quote:

Im gunna have to read the 71 pages to count my right to wrong ratio lol
These 325's will be great in the 458 Super Short as well

Boomy

I don't think it's the "right/wrong" ratio that is a concern, maybe it's all these "wild Ideas" you get me involved with, I mean come on, shooting brass balls? But who is crazier, you for wanting to do this, or me for actually doing it? Hmmmmm? Will need to ponder this a bit? LOL.

Ahhh, Ok, I have it, Boomy, you are an inspiration to all of us, and great things can sometimes come from "Crazy Ideas" and you have plenty of those!


And yes, the 458 Super Short can utilize this 325 CPS! Waiting on dies????? Hornady, are you out there lurking? Where's my damn dies? 500 MDM--50 B&MSA--458 B&MSA--458 Super Short--9.3 B&M--375 B&M, I can't do proper work without these dies!

Michael

Just wanted to pass this information along.

I wrote a note to Barnes customer service to see if the Barnes 330 Banded solid would work in my 45-70. Here is what they said:

"Unfortunately the .458 330gr Banded Solid (SOCOM) bullet will not work in
the 45/70. There will be too much of the bullet sticking out of the case
for it to feed in your lever action. If you are looking for a minimally
expanding deep penetrating bullet, you may want to look at our new Buster."

According to Barnes, their 400 grain .458 Buster bullet is the equivalent of a banded solid for the .45-70.

Dave

Extremely good point, that I had not thought about to be honest. I tested in the Browning 1885! If I can get to it today, I will load a couple and check for 100% confirmation on that. I have both Marlins and WInchesters to work with. Might be the case for the Marlin, but an 1886? Hmmm.

Now the busters give decent penetration in the slow twist of the 45/70s, but the meplat is not close to the banded, so to get best performance, we need that 1:14--or faster twist to stabilize them for terminals. No, it is not equivalent to the banded, sorry not so!

Don't let me forget, maybe this afternoon I can load up a couple of dummies and check that! Damn would be a shame if we can't make that 330 work in the lever guns , I just have been so busy doing everything I had not thought about that aspect of it!

Michael






OK, I could not wait, I took a few minutes and put one together! Barnes is right! Too long if seated proper, cartridge too long for the marlin. In the 1886s you can top load into the chamber, but too long to go in the loading gate! Fine for single shots of course.

Michael

Maybe for something for Michael to look at. Why does the 9.3 Woodleigh 320 gain solid penetrate straighter than the larger calibers? It would be interesting to see if the smaller diameter calibers do better in his media than the larger calibers. If he could test the 9.3 320 grain. .375 350 grain, .416 450 grain, .458 500 grain and .474 500 grain in his media. I wonder if we would see a deteriorating performance as caliber increases. Would the diffence in performance be curvileanear or straight line?
465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Why does the 9.3 Woodleigh 320 gain solid penetrate straighter than the larger calibers? 465H&H

Two words.... Sectional density

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Why does the 9.3 Woodleigh 320 gain solid penetrate straighter than the larger calibers? 465H&H

Two words.... Sectional density

Sorry Dave but that dog doesn't hunt in this case. 9.3 320 grain sd=.341, 375 350 grain sd= .356, 416 450 grain sd=,371, 458 550 grain sd=.375.

465H&H

Hey... Brass balls do have some merit in big bores
No twist issues or tumbling
I think Barnes should add another canalure or one could be put on the 330 Barnes and they would sell a lot more!

quote:

Agent J

I have those loads still on the waiting list, I am waiting for my safety gear to get in before shooting those! LOL--Full suit body armor!

No armor needed if you shoot them in your #1 ...

Ok it will be great to see these bullets put through the torture tests. Was thinking these bullets with the nose profile might not sheer the mushroom off and above 3,000 FPS it wont matter so 1,600 to ludicrous speed these bullets are damn versatile!!!

Ludicrous speed

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Maybe for something for Michael to look at. Why does the 9.3 Woodleigh 320 gain solid penetrate straighter than the larger calibers? It would be interesting to see if the smaller diameter calibers do better in his media than the larger calibers. If he could test the 9.3 320 grain. .375 350 grain, .416 450 grain, .458 500 grain and .474 500 grain in his media. I wonder if we would see a deteriorating performance as caliber increases. Would the diffence in performance be curvileanear or straight line?
465H&H

465HH

Well we have already done most all of that. 9.3 320 has been tested several times, always deep and straight. Why? Well has to be the nose profile, as we stated way back when, it is not the same as the larger calibers. Neither is the 310 gr 358 Woodleigh. It's the same as the 9.3.

I can't attest to anything in 375, I have never even looked at or seen one, same with the 416 450.

Of course the 500 458 and the 500 474 have been tested extensively, always the same result. I see no reason to revisit that to be honest.

The smaller calibers, 9.3 and 358 penetrate straight and deep every time, without veering off course. SD has nothing to do with it, it's nose profile. Both the smaller caliber bullets are vastly different on the nose than the larger cousins.

M