quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
The first test on the the new Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilised 470 500 Grain Bullet went well as our Aussie friends have stated.

First test would give a slight edge to the North fork for straightline penetration, but it would be splitting hairs. I would not hesitate to hunt with this bullet.

The nose flattened some and expanded approximately .020.

The "Meplat" was measured using an ink stamp.

To quote a famous author

"It's a friggin wonder bullet.

It's powerful, that's for sure!"

As has ben noted many times, thank you. Keep writin' the bible on bullet performance.

Looks like the folks at woodie are converts as well. Maybe they can learn something after 90 years.

What now JPK?

quote:

Now I have to wonder this. Do you think that someone actually engineered this wonderful bullet, or do you think they were just sitting around getting drunk one night and made it up as a fluke???

Have you ever looked at the bottom of a beer can. Crazy Aussie engineer drinking a Foster beer with a buddy, that is the answer to the wild design.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Now I have to wonder this. Do you think that someone actually engineered this wonderful bullet, or do you think they were just sitting around getting drunk one night and made it up as a fluke???

Have you ever looked at the bottom of a beer can. Crazy Aussie engineer drinking a Foster beer with a buddy, that is the answer to the wild design.

Jack,

Thanks, we are all learning new things. Traditions are slow to change (at times with good reason), but modern technology is catching up to big bore bullets. I wonder what John Taylor would think of the new Woodleigh, GS Custom, S&H, and North Fork bullets.

That's what that bullet is missing... Macifej's Patented shark fins!

Jay... any saucer points in the future?

Call them Hemi Points TM to appeal to the rednecks

That thing got a Hemi?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
That's what that bullet is missing... Macifej's Patented shark fins!

Jay... any saucer points in the future?

Call them Hemi Points TM to appeal to the rednecks

That thing got a Hemi?

Boomer - you'll have to chat with the gentlemen at Woodleigh to see if they're interested in a hybrid SHARRC/Hydrostatic Cup Point ...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Now I have to wonder this. Do you think that someone actually engineered this wonderful bullet, or do you think they were just sitting around getting drunk one night and made it up as a fluke???

Have you ever looked at the bottom of a beer can. Crazy Aussie engineer drinking a Foster beer with a buddy, that is the answer to the wild design.

Right here, on the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, we have once again unraveled the mystery of Terminal Performance!

This week, we have discovered the "Secrets of Aussie Engineering"

Starting this weekend I intend to take this Knowledge and put it to work, who knows what I might discover too?

I told you So!

Michael

As you all know, when "out bush" Aussies need to improvise when things go wrong and make use of what you have at hand.

It's been well known here that a full can of beer (Fosters !!! LOL) when thrown travels perfectly straight and end to end (a bit like an American football) but with a bit of a wobble (must need a bit more twist LOL).


BTW - I told Geoff from Woodleigh, he had already noticed the similarity !!!.

Maybe we could shoot elephants with a 2 bore and a frozen beer can projectile, beer thaws, marinated elephant.

Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solid Bullets at $4 a pop! I don't think so

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Maybe we could shoot elephants with a 2 bore and a frozen beer can projectile, beer thaws, marinated elephant.

LOL, Kill and marinate in one go. Now that could be marketed !!!

Got a cannon that would fire a beer can out of it quite nicely. Uses BP.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Maybe we could shoot elephants with a 2 bore and a frozen beer can projectile, beer thaws, marinated elephant.

Injection marinade... Love it!

Here's my bullet testing box.

I built this out of 3/4" spruce plywood today. I am going to get some threaded rod that will be used to compress the newspapers or phone books that I will use for a test medium.
I forgot to buy the threaded rod, when I picked up the plywood, so it's not quite finished.

I also have a notion to buy some folding legs to put on it, so I don't have to depend on a table or saw horses. It weighs about 40 lbs I think; it's not too tough to pack short distances anyways.

Right now the front is a full 1-1/2" thick, but I think will use a hole saw to knock out a couple of 4" circles in that, to fire through. I like the idea of the bullets impacting only into the newspaper.
The piece of plywood in the middle of the box, that the 2/4" is screwed to, slides. Depending on what lengths the rod comes in, I may have to extend the length of that slot, in the sides.

Overall length is 5'.










Here's what the box looks like after cutting the "windows" and installing the threaded rod for compressing the paper. My wife and my buddy Glen, caught in the camera lens...

These tests were done in Oct. 2008...

There is some small cal stuff in here. Disregard that... if you want...

I finally have some pics of the different bullets I tested (so far). I shot .270Win, .30-06 and 8x57 a few weeks ago and today I fired the .416RM.
I have misplaced the data from the small cal stuff, which had impact velocities and penetration depths. It might turn up and if it does I will try to get that info in here.

Lots of pics!

The .416 was fired at 35 yards... just the way it worked out...




Here's a .30-06 200gr Nosler partition that flattened... all that stuff on the left side is pulverized newspaper that was stuck to the bullet, I don't think I got it all off even.


A view of the back of that 200gr NP, you can see how it flattened.


.30-06 200gr Accubond, see the cupped termination of the expansion again. I am beginning to think the Accubond is a superior bullet to the legendary partition!


Another view of the .30-06 200gr Accubond.




8x57 195gr Hornady IL, with complete "puking" of the lead internals evident.


8x57 195gr Hornady IL... that jacket is EMPTY!


8x57 200gr Barnes TSX. This bullet penetrated approx 13" into the compressed, dry newspaper, which was the deepest pentration of any of the small caliber bullets (the other small cals were in the 8-10" range).


I sorted and catalogued every bullet, for future reference; "bagged and tagged".


A box of .416RemMag ammo waiting to be fired, Oct 7 2008.


.416RM 400gr Hornady IL with an empty core; 10-1/4" penetration. Impact vel 2320fps.


That same 400gr Hornady IL. These things would be great on "light-skinned" N.A. game. I shot a big bull moose with this bullet a few years ago and the terminal performance was fantastic.


This is the bullet I recovered from that bull moose. It stopped on his spine, at about 250 yards.


Bullet recoverd from bull moose; 400gr Hornady IL (beside a .338 cal 250gr NP).


400gr Hornady IB, with "shrapnel" jacket material; 11-1/4" penetration. Impact vel 2377fps.


Left: 350gr Speer HotCor. I think these bullets would be great for any N.A. big game, provided the accuracy in your rifle is acceptable; 12" penetration (no vel data). Right: 400gr Trophy Bonded bear Claw. Big mushroom; 11-1/2" penetration. 2206fps impact vel.


400gr Nosler Partition; 15" penetration. Impact vel 2254fps. I would not hesitate to shoot anything outside of elephant, with this bullet.


400gr NP; typical NP performance, it has lost the lead in the nose...


400gr Swift A-Frame. You can see the characteristic A-Frame, bulge in the bullet (although maybe not in this pic); 11" penetration. Only 2022fps impact vel, not sure why this was so low compared to the other 400gr bullets.


350gr Barnes TSX; 12" penetration. 2348fps impact vel.


400 gr TSX; 15" penetration. 2152 fps impact vel.


L-R: 400gr NP; 350gr TSX; 400gr TSX and 400gr Swift A-F.


400gr Hornady Encapsulated solid. Guts of the bullet squishing out the end, bullet slightly deformed/flattened.


Another look at the end of the Hornady Encapsulated Solid. 27-1/2" penetration (no vel data).


400gr Barnes Banded Solid; you can almost read the magic marker still! 34" penetration, hole in the paper looked like it had been made with a paper punch! No vel data.



Edited: To add penetration depth of the Barnes Banded Solid and Hornady Encapsulated Solid.[/QUOTE]

Demonical

You are a "Genius"! I was thinking of a threaded something or other for compression, but I think you are on to something good with that setup!

WOW--I had to be on the phone and in between your two posts--Have to digest it all!

But back to the new box first. Will that plywood hold up with the water??? Marine Plywood? I don't know. Next, how about the bottom and holding water? If it is solid in the bottom it might not drain. Now I was thinking maybe you could drill some nice drain holes in the bottom, but have a plug for them. Like Mike, soak everything good, then let it drain for a couple hours or whatever, that would give some water consistency maybe? Just a thought. But if you don't drain then you will have too much water. Maybe you said something about that, and I am going to fast and did not see it.

Ok the bullets. I assume all this was dry paper? Dry is hard on bullets as we can see. I also looking at the barnes TSX and very little expansion, so I had this big ??? going on in my head, then it hit me "Hydraulics". I regularly use the 416 caliber 350 TSX for my 416 B&Ms, and have shot animals and test work and always get a lot more expansion than what yours show in both?? Then it hit me, Dry vs Wet! I think that is what we are seeing here! Agreed? Other thoughts?

Dry is definitely hard on the other bullets like the Noslers and even the Swifts, Hornady is suffering the dry spell too!!!

Man I will probably find more as I look more, but you are very well on your way to good and proper test work! WELCOME ABOARD!!!!!!! We are all glad to have you and of course your tests!

I am a great fan of the great and Legendary Finn Aagaard. Finn used to test with a mixture of wet and dry. Claiming the dry put the bullets under a bit more stress. Which it does in fact.

Good work. Keep it going, and I will most likely have some more comments as I read it a little more!

Welcome aboard, once again!

Michael

Michael, I will try water, next time. But I have some logistics to figure out!

Since I have to transport my bullet testing box, to a remote site, wetting the paper is problematic. I will have to come up with a way to do that. I need something that is repeateable and consistent, test-to-test.

Plus there's the issue of moving several hundred pounds of wet newsprint... I might put rollers or wheels on the box to allow me to move, when it's full of heavy wet newspaper.



P.S. Got some happy news today also. My gunsmith phoned and he's done work on my ZKK-602 .416RM. He's shipping it today. So I should have it by Friday or early next week!

Demon

Yes, you do have an issue. A box full of wet print is not movable by mere mortal man alone!

Here on the range I have wheels on the boxes, but they are still extremely heavy. Without the wheels there is no way I could move them myself. Also if you are on concrete the wheels work fine, on the ground maybe you would need BIG wheels to keep from digging in. If water is not available on site, then you might have a bigger problem too!

Excellent on the 416!

Michael

Good looking box.

If you have a tub you could soak all of your paper before leaving, the excess water could drip on the way to the range. Load up the box once it is in place.

Have fun!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Demon

Yes, you do have an issue. A box full of wet print is not movable by mere mortal man alone!

Here on the range I have wheels on the boxes, but they are still extremely heavy. Without the wheels there is no way I could move them myself. Also if you are on concrete the wheels work fine, on the ground maybe you would need BIG wheels to keep from digging in. If water is not available on site, then you might have a bigger problem too!

Excellent on the 416!

Michael

To comment on several things...


I shoulda built the box out of pressure treated, of course.

Something I have thought about for quite some time, is to secure a couple of sprockets, on the ends of the threaded rod, then put a bicycle chain on them. Then I'd only have to screw one side of the rod(s) and should get equal pressure on each rod... assuming they engage exactly evenly. I think they would.

The second part of that, is to use my 18V drill with a socket attachment to run the threads. It's got a ton of torque settings and I might find one that 'works'.

You can see in the pics that I was using a torque wrench. I set it at 10 ft/lbs. Doesn't sound like much but that was tighter then hell, as I recall... will the drill do that?

I think I will get some large plastic storage totes, fill them with the newsprint, add water, leave overnight. Transport them to the range that way.

I am plumb out of paper, as it's been a couple years since I did those tests. I haven't been collecting them. Gonna hafta hit up the local newspaper for unsold papers. They are really decent about letting me have them.

Michael, I cannot comment on the effects of the dry paper vs wet, until I do some wet testing.

Demon

As for compression that is just something you are going to have to work with a bit, but caution don't get it too tight, like squeezing the water content out. Once you find the right setting then with your setup it will be 100% repeatable from that point, which is great. As stated, behavior of a bullet won't change, just depth of penetration one way or the other. I don't know that I would not just hand tighten what you have as to not get them too tight? Now looking at your setup I think I can incorporate something like that in my boxes too. Great idea, good job.

Plastic totes will work great for what you need. Fill'em up, let em soak overnite or so, drain them and tote them to the range. Sounds workable to me.

Well it's hard for me to comment on dry vs wet too, as I have never shot just dry? But I bet big bucks that is the difference between your Barnes TSX and mine, hydraulics! Also, I suspect very strongly that a round nose solid would do far better at keeping it's stability in a tight dry mix than a wet one! Again, hydraulics at work putting pressures on the nose, and softer material that will give up to the bullets tendency??? Maybe. But a solid dry material, tightly packed would not allow it to veer off course as easy I would theorize!

Keep us posted.
Michael

Great pictures on 416 bullets.

Maybe I missed it, but could you record the rifling twists used for the tests? My Rigby has the traditional 1x16.5" twist and it would be nice to see some 'slowtwist' testing. (Rifle in in Tanzan land and unavailable for testing outside, and impractical there.)

I use phone books and other thick books for my informal testing. Put the dry books in the back of my truck. Fill a large cooler w/ water. Put the books in the cooler when I get to the range and let them soak while I set up. Works fairly well. Good luck.

Hey Aliveincc!

Welcome! Formal, informal, don't matter, all testing is good! Glad to have you visit! How about posting some of the work for us? Would love to hear more!

Dave

Got the Hawks today!!!! I will start making up some test load tomorrow. Refresh my memory before I start loading, what velocity were you shooting for? I will test your velocity, or close, and then go from there either up or down depending on bullet behavior. For the 416s mainly.

Also have the 458s, your thoughts on starting tests with those at what velocity too.

I assume we want around 2150 with the 470s?

I will load tomorrow, maybe start tests Saturday and thru next week depending on time.

Oh and yes Buffalo, I will load some more Hornady DGS 458 500s too! Thought I had forgot them didn't you???? I did, until just this second, so don't let me forget before tomorrow!

Michael

So is wet newspaper pretty much just duplicating the water content of flesh?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Dave

Got the Hawks today!!!! I will start making up some test load tomorrow. Refresh my memory before I start loading, what velocity were you shooting for? I will test your velocity, or close, and then go from there either up or down depending on bullet behavior. For the 416s mainly.

Also have the 458s, your thoughts on starting tests with those at what velocity too.

I assume we want around 2150 with the 470s?

I will load tomorrow, maybe start tests Saturday and thru next week depending on time.

Oh and yes Buffalo, I will load some more Hornady DGS 458 500s too! Thought I had forgot them didn't you???? I did, until just this second, so don't let me forget before tomorrow!

Michael

Michael:

With the .416s, I guess I would suggest launching them around 2300-2350 fps. That is about traditional Rigby velocity. If you can get the 400 grain .458s at 2300 fps that would be great too. I think Andy wanted us to test them at about the same velocity. Also, 2150 sounds great with the .470s. The jacket on the .470s is only .035 so they are going to be the most fragile. If you could shoot them at about 50 meters or so, that would be great. These velocities and that distance is a pretty good hunting simulation, don't you think? Just have fun. Wish I could be there!

I am anxious to see if the .470s engage the rifling in your .470 Capstick.

I have a question about your Capstick. Can you make brass by just running .375 H&H cylindrical brass with one pass though a .470 Capstick die? If so, can you suggest a source for .375 cylindrical brass?

Dave

Ok, I got the velocities down, so I don't see any problems with that. 50 yds (48 actual because the impact indoors is exactly 50, so box is in front of that) is no problem.

I measured the 470s with my japanese measuring micrometer thingy and they are .475, so they will engage the rifling some for sure. Those are the largest diameter 470s I have measured, Swifts are .474 and North Forks are .474, all the rest are .4725 to .473 max.

I never had any 375 HH basic or cylindrical brass, but I am sure you could easy. Don't Hornady have belted basic brass? I think they do, that would work fine at 2.85 inches! I used to make mine from blowing out 416 Rem brass with a dose of bullseye and corn meal! Made great brass. Also did 375 HH the same way. But get some hornady basic belted would be easy and yes I think it will work. If I could get my hands on some I would find out, anyone got any of that and can spare a couple?????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So is wet newspaper pretty much just duplicating the water content of flesh?

Boomy

Animals are mostly water! So I believe water content is very important to the cause. Can't duplicate that exactly, nothing does, but water is a factor in getting closer.

M

Flesh is 75% water so I assume the mix might be close to that

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So is wet newspaper pretty much just duplicating the water content of flesh?

Boomy

Animals are mostly water! So I believe water content is very important to the cause. Can't duplicate that exactly, nothing does, but water is a factor in getting closer.

M

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Flesh is 75% water so I assume the mix might be close to that

[]

That is a pretty good question. The answer is, I don't know! I suppose one could weigh some samples and come up with a decent idea.

M

My Tanita scale says I'm 55% water ... not sure about the remaining ingredients though ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Great pictures on 416 bullets.

Maybe I missed it, but could you record the rifling twists used for the tests? My Rigby has the traditional 1x16.5" twist and it would be nice to see some 'slowtwist' testing. (Rifle in in Tanzan land and unavailable for testing outside, and impractical there.)

My bad... I do not know what the twist rate is in my .416RM...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
My Tanita scale says I'm 55% water ... not sure about the remaining ingredients though ...

Ohhhhhhh, I hate like hell to pass that one up!! HEH

I guess if you weigh a sample of the dry newspaper then soak it to the same as the normal test media then divide it you will come up with a close measurement.

Seems this thread is destined to be the longest thread here today or tomorrow.

If only Alf did not delete his posts

If you put the box on a trailer, your problems will be solved.

465H&H

Here is my ZKK-602, just received it from the gunsmith today. Man am I stoked to get this bad boy to the range and then after some black bears!!

Here's the info; it's a Brno ZKK-602, which the CZ-550 has replaced. This rifle is a 1989 production model made the year after Remington brought out the .416RM. This gun was originally chambered in .375H&H and the original owner bored it out to .416 and had the chamber reamed to .416RM.

Before I got the mods done, the rifle weighed in at about 9.5 lbs, without scope or bullets. I weighed it and I get pretty much 9.0 lbs even. After I throw the scope on and fill the magazine it'll check in around 10.5 lbs. Perfect!

I have a Leopold Vari-X III 1.5-6X that is going on here, in a set of Warne rings.

Okay the details on the mods; David Henry did the work. Fabulous job, no surprise. I love the guys attention to detail!

The barrel was shortened from 25.5" to 23.5". I was getting a barrel band installed so thought, "What the hell, knock 2" off..."

The barrel band is a Talley.

The stock is a McMillan CZ Express, in dark grey with brown and light grey striping molded in. It's got a Pachmyr Decellerator recoil pad.

David cut the barrel, installed the barrel band, inletted the stock, full-length glass bedded the barrel & action. Then he re-crowned the muzzle and had to turn the barrel end to re-install the factory front sight.

I hope these pics do it justice, I'm not much of a photog'. :redface:

Demon

Chop another 6 inches off that barrel and it will start to look like one of mine!

HEH
Michael

Hey my buddy Corbin dropped by this morning, and we just happened to get a few things sorted out, and a few things tested!

This is me and my pal Corbin in Charlotte last weekend! The guy in the green shirt is rushing over to get my autograph! HEH!

OK Corbin and I worked on some 416 caliber 400 gr Hawks today, for our Buddy Dave Bush!!! Along with some 500 gr 470s, and 400 gr 458s.



Dave sent these over for us to give a good workout. Looking for 2300-2350 fps on the first go I overshot the velocity a bit. Dave, I do find that in every single case the Hawk is building more pressure, more velocity than standard bullets, by 50-75 fps on average every load. This is why I overshot all the velocities today on all of them! I did not want to waste Hawks you sent on velocity, so for the 416 velocities I shot Hornadys.

I did not expect the Hawks to do so well in the terminal arena, however they did rather well even at my over shot velocity. These were the .065 jackets.


In great anticipation of over expansion I had already prepared a load with 3 grs less powder than the first load, which I expected velocity around 2200 to 2250, but was at 2300+

Here we had a little issue with one bullet that gave zero expansion, but turned into a flat nose solid that did rather well to 47 inches!



Michael

Next up came the 458 caliber 400 Hawks. Target velocity was around 2300 fps, which I overshot quite a bit. I will be testing these again at lower velocities this coming week. I plan on dropping to 2200 fps, 2000 fps and 1800 fps to see how these progress this week.

These left great gaping holes in the test medium! Extreme Trauma.

My target velocity for the 500 gr 470s was 2150 fps. Just this morning I had 2154 fps with some Woodleighs and 83 grs of Varget in the Capstick! Can't get much better. Same load with the Hawks gave me 2220 fps! Quite a bit more. As we all know, the entire world knows, these are loose barrels and Dave was curious as to if the Hawks would engrave. The answer is there are engraving marks on the bullet, but they must have been painted on, as I cannot scratch or feel the engraving, just see the marking!

This is an .035 jacket on these, very soft and tremendous expansion and extreme trauma to the medium. Penetration is lacking and short, but excellent for thinner skinned animals.