michael

i think that 30" is very long as well, but remember that a 24" double rifle is as short or shorter than your bolt or lever guns with a 20" barrel on, because there is no action to make them longer.

the critter is a danish roebuck, they are in the 40-60 punds size, so a small animal only bullet i ever found in a roebuck were a 223 that didnt penetrate, but the stalking of them here in denmark is the best stalking times as far as im concerned.
the one in the picture is an old one and therefore rather smart and to me the nicest trophy

best

peter

OK T'Rex Box time again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is just fun. It's a reasonable test to test construction of different solids, or other bullet for that matter. For refreshment course it consists of 5 inches of wet print front, a 1.5 inch concrete block (cinderblock we call them here in the south) then 15 inches of wet print and a second 1.5 inch concrete block and the remainder wet print.

I don't think I know of an elephant skull that is this tough and rough on bullets. What constitutes a success? Going dead straight through both blocks. Does not matter if it's just the other side of the 2cd block as long as it's dead straight and goes through the second block.

Now this is a One Shot test. Too much destruction to be able to shoot two in the same box. Of course I could shoot several setups easy enough, but want to just get some ideas before running more. Also I use chewed up knarly mix near the end of two boxes, which is fine with something like this. So until I run out of blocks we will continue, if something needs to be tested again, we can do so in the near future.

First up today with the T'Rex box is one I have been wanting to do a long time, just have not got to it yet.

458 caliber 450 gr North Fork Solid! Success, dead straight, through both blocks.

Buffalo--Where are you???? You actually instigated this the other day as you suggested a T'Rex test with the 500 gr 458 cal Hornady DGS.

Well, this bullet is trying very hard. Still would do much better I think if it was a 1:10 twist rate, or a tiny bit more meplat.





That's about all I have for today! Getting ready for tests this coming week. Retest the 500 Hornady DGS in straight mix. Then I think North Forks are next in line, a series of CPS tests in 458.

We have some NEW designs for .500 caliber solids, Sam has made several wild looking bullets, and Corbin had a fellow make us some samples with some different banding, like our current 510 and 550 gr .500 caliber solids. I am holding off testing these until just past mid June, the reason being, I forgot I have to go to Disney World with the kids during this time, so that again cuts into the test work for a week!

Michael

Michael:

Saw the results with respect most recent Hawk tests. Very, very interesting. I was not surprised by the core/jacket separation with the .475 .035 jacket bullet but I was a little disappointed to see the core jacket separation with the .065 jacket .458 bullets. What do you think?

Dave

I was surprised the other day when we had no jacket/core separations to be honest! I managed to slow things down a bit, but tested at 22 instead of 48. So velocity was not all that much different at impact. So I still have some of the 458s and 416s, I only have one 470 left now. I am going to continue testing as we move along, probably some more 416 next week, and then continue to slow the 458s down some more and see what happens.

What do I think? Well, the Hawks are transmitting tremendous trauma to the test medium, about as much as I have ever seen. But that is expected with such violent upset as what they do. They are wicked in that respect! Thin skinned game they would be devastating, but you would have to be very careful with your shot, I would not chance a raking shot from the rear on most anything, maybe deer size, impala size animals yes. But I can tell you this, don't shoot an impala up the rear, you won't reach vitals. You will break him apart, he won't move from the spot, but the bullets won't get to the vitals I promise. So while they are and would be devastating for 250 lb game and under, still have to watch the shot careful at these impact velocities.

Now, best of both worlds, we will slow it down some more for the 458s, try and get to 1800 fps or so at the muzzle and see what happens!

The 416s I want to try one more time at lower velocity to see if they open or not. Then back to 2350 or so and test again for you! Remember we lowered velocity only a bit, 50-75 fps or so and 1 bullet did not open at all. Check that again.

Michael

Michael:

In the TBP thread, do you recall testing any 9.3 bullets?

Dave

I was going to suggest that you bring the 9.3 discussion over here this morning as I am becoming a very big 9.3 fan myself, with my 9.3 B&M. Oh yes, we have some wonderful test work in 9.3. Since I was ignorant about 9.3 bullets I have tested almost all I could get my hands on, common bullets, hornady, barnes, swift, woodleigh and so forth. I have some new 250 gr North Forks I may get to this week! 9.3 B&M is officially my favorite medium bore! They are somewhere on this thread. If you don't find them, it's easy for me to repost the photos and don't take up much space anyway! What? Did you say something about a 250 Barnes TSX???? Oh yes, an excellent choice!

HEH.

I might just post it again for you, but it will a bit later.

Michael

2700fps with 250 grain.
Your 9.3 B&M duplicates the energy of the 358 Norma magnum, not bad! If either was available in rifles under $1000 it would turn heads. I might never have started using 338s thirty years ago (when I would have used $500 as a base line for factory rifles).

On the 250 gr. TSX, what was the penetration?

Well done Michael...
Looking forward for more

I have written it several times before: This thread is the best ever on AR. Immense amount of very usefull information, thanks Michael..

Tanzan
Oh man, the 9.3 B&M is a winner for sure, it will now replace every medium I have ever used, 338 WInchester, 358 STA mostly. And the deal is this, it's a WInchester M70 WSM action, 20 inch barrel, 7.5 lbs. Very handy. Light and easy to carry.


I got on a 9.3 kick a couple of years ago, built a couple of 9.3X338s with 22 inch barrels, and lord knows I wasted a good RUM action on a 9.3 Ultra. Along about the time the big Ultra 9.3 was done, so was the 9.3 B&M. I spent my time with the 9.3 B&M and have not even started load data on the 9.3 Ultra. I can see no point in it, I would never carry that big Ultra anywhere. Even the 9.3X338s are large rifles when compared to the little B&M rifle. So they sit in the rack with nothing to do too.
You can't really see how much smaller the B&M is compared to the others in this photo, but there is considerable difference in overall size of the rifles and feel.


Of course the 9.3 B&M exceeded expectations too. For my use as a medium, all plains game, moose, elk, any sort of deer, all things like that, the 250 Barnes TSX will sort out in short order. Of course it has not made an Africa trip yet, but should it ever find it's way into Zimbabwe or some such place then I would also have some of those 320 gr Woodleigh FMJ in my back pocket! I also want to get some 286 North Fork Solids and give them a go too.

I always forget to go back and put penetration on that 250 TSX, I am not on that computer right now, so I don't have my data sheets, but I will look it up, it was good, I want to say 18 inches, but I am not sure of that.


Buffalo

Thanks, I suppose you took a look at the two T'Rex tests?


Michael

Michael:

Those 250 grain 9.3 TSX bullets are just fantastic. I have a couple sitting by my reloading bench that look very similar that were shot into wet phone books at 50 meters. With 60 grains of Varget, I am getting a muzzle velocity of 2525 fps in my Blaser so they will perform like that at a little less velocity as well. In my unscientific phone book test, the 250 grain TSX bullets penetrated better than the 286 grain Woodleighs and at least as well as the 300 grain Swifts. I think that 250 grain TSX has been revolutionary in the 9.3X62. With the velocity that you are getting, I would stick with the TSX bullets or maybe the 320 grain Woodleigh PP bulets. I average about 2209 fps in my CZ with 58 grains of Big Game and the Woodleigh 320 RN SP. There is room to boost velocity a bit as pressures appear to be quite modest. I selected the RN SP because I think it is a better choice for the 9.3X62 because of the more modest velocity. In your cartridge, i would go with the 320 PP. However, I sure was disappointed to hear what you said about the 250 grain banded solids

Your 9.3 cartridge does indeed make a lot of sense to me.

Michael:

I don't know if it would make a difference but I would be glad to send you some 250 grain banded solids to try. If I can get it done, I'll do another wet phone book test up here with the 250 grain banded solids in my 9.3. When I shoot Barnes bullets, I always drop down in bullet weight (i.e. 250 grain 9.3s, 270 grain .375s, 350 grain .416s, 450 grain .458s, etc). I think it is the short action on the Winchester rifle that causes them to "tumble".

I was pleased to see how well the 286 grain Hornadys did!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
2700fps with 250 grain.


On the 250 gr. TSX, what was the penetration?

17 Inches.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I don't know if it would make a difference but I would be glad to send you some 250 grain banded solids to try. If I can get it done, I'll do another wet phone book test up here with the 250 grain banded solids in my 9.3. When I shoot Barnes bullets, I always drop down in bullet weight (i.e. 250 grain 9.3s, 270 grain .375s, 350 grain .416s, 450 grain .458s, etc). I think it is the short action on the Winchester rifle that causes them to "tumble".

I was pleased to see how well the 286 grain Hornadys did!

Dave

I would be glad to try the 250 Barnes Banded, but if the meplat is the same as the 286s I imagine the same results, although a velocity gain might help?

HEH--Short action, maybe that short 20 inch barrel!


I was pleased with the Hornady myself, good all around bullet for general purpose use. Also EXTREMELY accurate in that 9.3 B&M, with any load, any powder, any velocity! I tested at two impacted velocities, 2200 and 2500, and both it held together, did great.

For solids I wish I had thought and got some North Fork 9.3s in 286. I will get some to test, and I suspect some excellent results from those.

My 9.3 B&M has been a very successful little cartridge. With a 250 at 2700 in the little gun, I have no use anymore for any of my 338s or 358s which have to have that longer barrel to be efficient. No thanks, my new medium is the 9.3 B&M with it's 20 inch tube. I suspect it might do very well at 18 inches??? Hmmmmm? For the 375 folks, don't forget the 375 B&M. Same case, same everything, just 375.

M

Michael:

I will send you a few of the 250 grain banded solids. I have some Woodleigh 286 grain solids as well. Would you like to try those too?

I will try to put together a test up here with the 250 grain banded solids at a lesser velocity, around 2500 fps to see if they do any better.

The only problem I have with the Hornady bullet is that for the 9.3X62, the cannelure is in the wrong place. They made that bullet with the 9.3X74R in mind. I mentioned that to them and they said that they had had others call about that too. You might see them make a 9.3 bullet with a second cannelure or perhaps on just for the 9.3X62 and the 9.3X64.

Dave

Ok, Yes, send a few 286 Woodleighs, 4-5 will do for us to get an idea. The 320 FMJ is totally incredible. A 286 with the same profile might do very well when regulating with the 250s or 286s I am sure. A bit better regulation maybe than the 320.

Once I get thru some of the other test work, and get back after next week, then I will get some 286 North Forks in too.

This week I will get a 250 North Fork soft tested, I expect good things with that.

In addition, I have to watch magazine and cartridge overall length in the B&M. I have 320 PPs, but they are a little long for the short magazine. The 9.3 B&M is just about perfect for most 9.3 bullets, but it's the bottom end for the B&M case. One could do 358 and 338, but the deal is one would be stuck totally with lighter bullets and even then selection would be but a few because of overall length. So 9.3 and 375 is bottom end for the case. With the 9.3 as successful as it is, don't need the others anyway. Life is a compromise, so is the shooting world!

Michael

Michael:

One other thought. I will send you some 250 grain banded solids but I would like to to try something for me. Rather than speeding them up, load a couple at less velocity, maybe around 2500 fps at the muzzle and see how they do. Now remember, this particular bullet was specifically designed to work at 9.3X62 velocity so maybe backing them off a little might make them work a bit better. I don't know if it will make a bit of difference but it's worth a try.

Dave

You may have missed this, but Barnes got it exactly right on the 338 250 Banded, same as it's much bigger relatives, in 416 and up. I have been lazy and have not measured the meplat % of caliber on the 338, but it is excellent. On the 286 9.3, it only has a 48% meplat for caliber, I don't understand why Barnes did this for 9.3?? When everything else is excellent, that I have tested.


From this test, and all tests I have done with the Barnes Banded, velocity does in fact increase penetration. But, I am not opposed to dropping the velocity even to 2400 fps and giving the 250s a try and see. Also I suppose it's possible the 250s have a larger meplat?


M

Michael:

I pulled out some 250 banded solids. The meplat is not very big and I bet it is about the same as the one on the 286 grain banded solids. I am thinking that the smaller meplat on the 9.3 was a compromise of sorts to insure reliable feeding.

As you know, I have a 45-70 coming. I also have ordered some 405 grain Cast Performance bullets for the 45-70. I want to get a load for that worked up at around 1600 fps and as soon as I do, I'll set up some wet phone books up here and shoot them with the 250 grain 9.3 banded solids and the Cast Performance bullets to see how they do. I know the Cast Performance bullets in the 45-70 will penetrate better than a .500 Nitro EXpress because I read it on the internet

I will try and get some 250 grain banded solids and some 286 grain Woodleigh solids in the mail to you tomorrow.

Rock on

quote:

Dave Bush
Michael:

I pulled out some 250 banded solids. The meplat is not very big and I bet it is about the same as the one on the 286 grain banded solids. I am thinking that the smaller meplat on the 9.3 was a compromise of sorts to insure reliable feeding.

i was going to ask for a check of the 250 BS, too. They would match the TSX by weight and I would have expected that the meplat would have grown some, since the easiest way to make a 250 from a 286 would be to slice off some of the nose, creating a larger meplat.

Dave

I suppose you are correct on the meplat and why? Or at least that's some sort of possibility.

Good to see you doing some test work too. wet phone books are fine. Give you an idea of what's going on. Do this with the Cast Performance. Test a couple at 1600 fps muzzle, then test a couple at 1200 fps or so.

Hey no rush on the bullets. I will be out next week, so I most likely wont' get them in time to test this week anyway. But yes a few would be great. I will give them a workout.

Tanzan

I imagine they took the weight off the ass end! That's what I normally do! Can't figure why the 9.3 Barnes is so different than all the other Barnes Banded?



RIP

Where have you been?


Michael

OK some things to report

465HH--if you are out there I may have a very reasonable solution to solve your over pentration of solids. I don't know why I did not think of this before, it dawned on me this morning on the range doing some test work. I don't have time to go into it now, but I think it's the perfect, no compromise solution to have straight line penetration, and limit it to the amount you need. Remind me to go into it when you are paying attention, and I have more time.


Next

458 Caliber 500 gr Hornady DGS is a SUCCESS! I deem this by all that is holy as a good and proper bullet in 1:14 twist rate MAXIMUM---1:12 would be even better. I did not have time to report and post this today! Details tomorrow.

458 Caliber North Forks 325 CPS---350 CPS---450 CPS all tested and all with some VERY interesting points! See it tomorrow, same channel I don't know what time! North Fork, are you watching?

I just did not have time to put together photos, reports, labels, and get it posted today! Sorry, but look for it tomorrow, with commentary from Doc M. HEH!

Michael

quote:

michael458

Absolutely insane thought.

What about pulling the bullet from the Hornady 9.3 and replacing it with a NF or other such bullet as you wish to test? It's a way of testing the Hornady powder and loading in your short barreled rifles.

Doc M,
I am still studying and learning a lot from your lectures here at U. of A. R.

Where else have I been lately?
Visiting the grave of David Crockett's Mother in Rutherford, Tennessee.
It is only about 20 miles south of Dixie Gunworks of Union City, TN:













Still waiting for Brian to notify me that my .458 B&M is done.
At least I am on JD's email list now.

I suspect my 1:10" twist will make the Hornady .458/500gr DGS even better.
I will not trust the DGX to hold together, however: not bonded.

quote:

I will not trust the DGX to hold together, however: not bonded.

RIP,

I seem to recollect from the Hornady website early on when the DGS/DGX were being introducted that the copper jacket is bonded to the steel jacket (imported that way from a German company) but that the lead core is not bonded to the steel jacket. Would this technically be a half bonded bullet?

RIP

Ok, excellent, a little R&R, was afraid you had got so busy, and forgot about us! Last time I looked "Davy" looked just like Billy Bob Thorton? Not sure if that is true or not?

I quickly spoke with Brian about some things on Friday--Don't recall what exactly now, but I forgot to ask about your 1:10 458 B&M. Yes, you are extremely correct--the 1:10 will make the Hornady 500 DGS sing and dance! The 1:14 in the 458 Lott is very close! 1:10 should make it 100%. I will address that later this morning too. Lecture time.

Yeah, JD has a mailing list, not sure but I think maybe Brian is instigating some of this. In our conversation Friday Brian has discovered he can use Facebook for putting on some adverts. So there is SSK Industries Facebook, I think he gave up on JD doing anything with the website and updating the official website. So Brian is playing with putting some things he can control over there LOL. JD has been going to update the SSK site for the last 5 yrs, just has not got around to it yet!

DGX in 458 have a bad rep, all I have tested break off at the nose and do funny things. Exactly the same as far as behavior, as the interbonds in that caliber. In other calibers, like 416, the interbonds did ok, little soft and expands a lot, but don't break off like the 458s???? Not sure about anything other than what I tested. I am going to send some 480 DGXs for Boomie and his crowd to shoot up, not much good for anything else in 458 B&M.

I suppose you are getting ready to start some test work when the new 1:10 458 B&M arrives?

Michael

Those 9.3 250 grain velocities are fantastic.

I load for my 9.3x64Br and get a VERY accurate AccuBond and Swift A Frame loads at 2750 FPS.

Of course, I pay for this with a nonstandard bolt head size, longer cartridge and longer barrel (25.56").

Good results from the 9.3 B&M.

Chopper

As I recall, way back when, that's how I found you over on the mediums when I posted the 9.3 B&M there?

By the way, 410 B&M is official, did you see? Reamers in the works and speaking with Brian, no doubt about it, he said .410 bore. .411 bullets were zero issues, as we sorta thought.

M

Michael:

The 9.3 250 grain Barnes banded solids and 286 grain Woodleigh solids are on the way. Have fun!

I really, really hope we can get these 250 grain Barnes banded solids to work. The 250 grain TSX is my bullet of choice in the 9.3 but the TSX becomes much less attractive if you don't have a solid of the same weight to go with it. I might have to switch to a 286 Nosler and use the 286 Woodleigh solid or just go with the 320 Woodleighs.

Yep, the 9.3 initally got my attention. Good thing for the checkbook I already have x62, x64 bolt guns and x74R double in the gun vault!

Looking forward to the 410 B&M. Still searching for a donor rifle.

I have shot several deer with the Hornady 350gr RN from a 45/70 at 1890 fps.

I have never recovered one.

I have also shot several deer and several pigs with the Hornady 350gr RN from my 450 No2 at 2330fs.

The onoly one I have recovered was shot into a pig facing me at @45 yards.

The bullet hit just right of center head and traveled down next to the spine.

It had expanded and lost some weight but held together well considering the bone it had hit.

It is a good bullet for medium game in the 45 cal rifles, IMHO.

N E 450 No2:

If you really are interested in a load for your 45-70, drop a note to Sharpsguy. He casts 480 grain bullets with a lyman mold that will shoot through bison end to end even when launched at a very modest velocity. I know that over here it is very fashionable to diss the old 45-70 but if you can get close, it's a stone cold killer.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have shot several deer with the Hornady 350gr RN from a 45/70 at 1890 fps.

I have never recovered one.

I have also shot several deer and several pigs with the Hornady 350gr RN from my 450 No2 at 2330fs.

The onoly one I have recovered was shot into a pig facing me at @45 yards.

The bullet hit just right of center head and traveled down next to the spine.

It had expanded and lost some weight but held together well considering the bone it had hit.

It is a good bullet for medium game in the 45 cal rifles, IMHO.

450

I have used the 350 Hornady a lot too, in the days I was messing with 45/70 a lot. It's an excellent bullet, the FN is the same as the RN, just flattened for 45/70 and 450 Marlin, designed originally for 458 Winchester. I have shot moose, and several other lesser critters with it, always successful and excellent performance if kept within it's working range, not above 2400 fps and it does not open below 1500-1600 fps.

Dave

Don't hold hopes to high for the 250 Barnes. Also, I believe it possible to get the 286 Woody and the 250 TSX close to POI, might just take some fooling around with. Also maybe the 286 NF? The 320 is getting a little too far out I think to hope for POI.

M

I've never had a problem getting all the various 9.3 bullet weights
shooting to the same POI from 9.3 x 64 and 74, and a couple of mates
are the same in the 62.

It's a bit like the 375H&H, very flexible.

One good thing about the 410 B&M is we will have some good info on the bullets performance here!
See how fast we can push the variety of 300 grainers.

quote:

Originally posted by ChopperGuy:
Yep, the 9.3 initally got my attention. Good thing for the checkbook I already have x62, x64 bolt guns and x74R double in the gun vault!

Looking forward to the 410 B&M. Still searching for a donor rifle.

Chopper

I sent last week two guns up for Brian. One stainless 50 B&M and the other a gun kote matte for 458 B&M. But the deal is this, the stainless 50 will be fitted to a gorgeous maple stock and the 458 to that excellent english! Could not help myself.

Also, I am almost on the verge of keeping the two 500s in the english too. If someone wants them new they better speak up before I get back from Disney cause I am going to start shooting them both! HEH!

Boomy

We have to get Chopper to do all our 410 tests. He is going to have rifle #1 in the series.

M