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This new development sounds great! I'm a .452 fan also and could use them as soon as CEB gets them to market. Max .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Well, Well, well. How about some 325 grainers, in .458 diameter, for the 458 SOCOM??? I would be happy to test some on pigs ASAP, and on deer next deer season. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony, did you try their 295 gr? Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Keith, I was afraid that Tony could not keep the velocity hi enough to stay above LVSP on that bullet. The copper with the slits might just be the ticket however...... Let see what kind of LVSP we can get with those and move it from there to applications such as the 458 Socom. I don't know when they are going to run the .452s, but I will put them through the works here and we can find out some more. Dan and Ken are working on them their side as well. Thus far everything done here, matches everything they have done their side in the gel. As far as performance behavior.. They get more penetration in the gel. Behavior exactly the same. Good stuff.... Lots of fun these bullets! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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IME you are going to have a problem getting the velocity out pif a revolver, with the limited bearing surface. Interested in finding out how well this works _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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The limited bearing surface should prove lower pressure or higher velocity all things being equal. CEB has the patent on the seal tight band so they are knowledgeable about blow by. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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It will lower pressure and velocity in my experience. The bullet is long for its weight with a limited bearing surface the pressure doesn't get high enough to get the velocity up to where it should be. Again that is the problem that we rN Ian into a few years ago with mono metal bullets and reduced bearing surface with slow burning pistol powder needed for the higher velocities The cylinder throats and the barrel cylinder gap are variable that a rifle doesn't have to deal with _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I was talking to Ken today, and he was running the 150 gr Copper #13 ,429 at 1900 fps in a 7 inch Ruger. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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That is good speed, how is the penetration _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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JWP I don't own a .429 so it is not tested here. Ken shot it in a gel block, I think it was 10 inches, which it exited. Not sure of the exact length of the block. When the .452s come I will put them thru my terminals here to give us some correlation. The .429s would be the same basically too. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well guys, I loaded some 200's up to get some range testing in tomorrow if the weather plays nice. I will be putting them through a 4" smith and worked my loads up with some longshot. With the current bullet design (only speaking in revolvers) I have to use a faster powder to get the powder any sort of velocity, just not enough pressure to load with the go to powder of 296. I think I should at least get 1600 out of these bullets, LVS is estimated around 1500 but only testing will tell for sure. Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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Season44.... Excellent. If you do terminals, make sure everything is good and wet, aqueous! Yes, faster powder is the key. I think Ken was using BlueDot with the 150. I think LVSP may be lower, especially with the 200. With the slits cut? Got to be. 1500 would be with brass and no slits, I think you will get something. Deal is with copper, if it don't shear, it should peel back! Especially with the slits. Brass, no shear, its a solid end of story... Hoping if the copper don't shear, it does expand and peel..... Good luck, keep us posted..... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I know that most wetpack tests I've seen aren't real favorable for handgun bullets, except for flat-nosed and some roundnose bullets. (18 inches for a .40S&W with a 180 grain bullet?!?!) Maybe the tests from the .429 and .452 bullets will teach us something.  _________________________ Glenn | |||
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18 inches is very good for a 40 S&W _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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It sure is. That was taken from this page, where the guy tests in wetpack too. http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...methods.html#handgun If I read correctly that bullet is a FMJ flat point. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Long time since I`ve been here... Good to see that all is well and that the thread is continueing...  I am in the middle of a divorce..... not exactly happy days here...Ex-wife getting nasty regarding guns and trophies - I am trying all I can to avoid a fight.. But F*** my patience is put through the test..... Well - I have never been through this before - I know some of you are more experienced than me.. So please tell me that in 6 months time the sky will be blue and I will be thinking happy thoughts... Come out on the scene Michael - as far as I remember you are a specialist in this area ...   | |||
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Ulrik Wonderful to hear from you, sorry about the issues you are having... And YES, BEEN THERE DONE THAT A COUPLE OF TIMES..... I finally paid my last one off after a LONG 10 YEARS..... HEH, that was a couple of years ago... 2011 6 Months??? HEH HEH HEH HEH .......... Yes my friend... LOL... No worries! I figured it this way, Worth Every Penny Not to Have that Winch Aggravating me Every Day... SO I paid to Get Rid of Her, and it was worth it! Just think of it that way! Money... Dirty Paper, you can get more of that, A Day Free of an Aggravating Woman, well, Hell, How do you put a price on something like that?Got a good one now however, so those days are long gone. You will come good in the end, just hang on! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael: Why does CEB have both .457 and .458 solids and hollow points for the 45/70 and 450 Marlin lever guns. I have some 400 grain .458 bullets and they seem to work fine in my lever guns. Do I need to switch to the .457s? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Dave The only .457 that I know for a fact that is hanging on from some of the first bullets is the .457 480/450 designed for the 450 Nitro. This came in the very early part of development, and Sam, myself and our buddy Mike thought maybe we should go to .457 on that because of barrel strain. Later we learned at .458 we had no issues with barrel strain, but decided to keep that 480 solid and matching 450 NonCon at .457. I think that early on we might have made some of the other .458s at .457 for this reason, but currently they ALL should be .458 caliber, maybe a leftover thing that has not got off the website yet for some reason??? No, as far as I know there should not be .457s, and should all be .458.... No you do not need to switch. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Sorry for the late reply but finally got out and did some terminals with the 200 gr .429 copper non-cons. Weather has been a problem! With no initial load data I wanted to take it easy and had a feeling I was going to be way over pressure, which I was. Worked up two loads with Longshot powder. Velocity’s were pretty disappointing. The 6 rounds, which were, chronographed 1416- 1440. Even with the pathetic velocities penetration was roughly 11 inches and we got complete shear. The bullet began to shear just around 2 inches. I will have a full line up of photos later today, it’s a start but still a lot of work ahead Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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If I may interject with one of my much-less-than-expert observations: With an average velocity of 1425 fps with the 200 grain non-con, the momentum of this bullet is identical to the previously cited 150 grain bullet at 1900 fps. It'll be interesting to find out about the 150 grain bullet and see how it stacks up. My guess based on what I've learned earlier is that the 150 grain bullet with its greater energy will cause somewhat greater trauma than the 200 grain, given similar penetration. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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I want to be extremely honest in my approach to this project, and my opinions and beliefs may not coincide with others here. But here it is! Glenn, I have said from the beginning that the 150’s are way to light for caliber and don’t have enough, for lack of better term, they lack enough ass to penetrate deep enough due to limited velocity revolvers give you. As far as terminals performance I feel the 200’s performs ok as they are now , even with the lack of velocity. Pistols are a completely different animal and need to approach differently then the designs, which have been used in the rifles. I will go through this in my full report Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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So testing today was done around 48-50 degrees Pistol: Smith and Wesson 629 4” Powder : Longshot Primers: CCI 300 Brass: Starline When doing this test, I decided I was only going to load a handful of rounds to start out so I would not be wasting bullets and to get an idea how my pressures were with the starting loads. Dan over at CEB was using Blue Dot for his testing not having any on hand I chose a powder with a similar burn rate. But as we all know large amount of fast burning powder in a small case equals pipe bomb. My ideal powder would be something like 296 though these bullets as design now will not give enough resistance to burn the powder. So for now this is what we will be working with. All my testing was done at 25 yards; chronograph was set up 10 feet from the muzzle. I don’t have the impact velocities but this was the first test, future tests I will. As stated in my previous post velocities were from 1416-1440, pretty weak for a bullet this light, though the bullet acted, as it was suppose to. We got full shear and moderate penetration, penetration probably would match a standard 44 mag 240 hollow point loads, if I am not mistaken, 11 inches in total, shear began just about 2-3 inches in. [URL=  ]Intial Expan.[/URL][URL=  ] [/URL][URL=  ] [/URL][URL=  ] [/URL][URL= ] [/URL]Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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The loads, even though my velocities were so low I was way over pressure, and would not load them again with this powder. So for me the concept of the cavity is damn near perfect I think it may need to be tweaked when we get the velocities up wear they should be. The front seal tight band works great with the rifle bullets though makes consistent crimping nearly impossible with the pistol bullets. So my thoughts are to not have any driving bands on the bullet to increase surface area and have a normal crimp grove to aid in consistent loading. This will allow us to use proper slower burning powders and increase velocities. It’s only round one but it’s good to see these bullets act like their big brother brass noncons, more testing is needed but it’s a great start! Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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It's just my opinion, but I don't think there's enough of a certain unnamed quality about the 150's. I don't like to repeat such profanities, but the quality I'm referring to rhymes with dectional sensity. But we shall see! I generally have found it safer to leave my beliefs at the door when it comes to terminal ballistics. More fun that way. Thanks for sharing the tests, guys! _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Seasons...... Excellent work. Velocity Slow??? For a 4 inch M29? Now I am not an expert in handguns, but for a 4 inch M29 a 200 at 1400 seems pretty spiffy to me. I am not even familiar with Longshot powder, on handgun cartridges I am way behind the times, still using 2400, Unique, Bullseye, 296 and such... Just guessing impact velocity of around 1250-1300 at 25 yds, Getting good shear with that. LVSP is going to be needed drastically so on these handgun bullets to see how low shear goes, and what happens when they do not shear? Does the copper blades peel or bend back to become a conventional bullet? Don't discount the light for caliber just yet, remember, these are NonConventional, they do not adhere to Conventional Rules? Which we have found out with every caliber in big bore rifles. Not so long ago it was unheard of a 250 gr .458 caliber bullet doing what it can do, and a 225 gr .416 caliber bullet doing what that does as well... Penetration and trauma inflicted, these are EXTREMELY light for caliber....... I will be using the 250 .458 in July, and I am pretty sure it will be very successful based on the test work here. I see you mention that 11 inches is "Probably" what a standard 44 mag 240 HP bullet would do in your medium... Lets take the "Probably" out of the equation, and get some definite comparisons in the same mix. This would be an interesting comparison and give a base to operate from to correlate data. But make sure its the same consistency and density mix. In my test medium here, which is probably a bit denser because of the magazine/catalog that I inject 11 inches would be pretty good, most small caliber .308 and less rifle bullets can barely make it to 11-12 inches of penetration, and even mighty mediums like the 338s only make 12-15 inches depending on the bullet, these being conventional bullet tests of course. Your photos are very typical of what I see here with all the NonCons, 1st photo is at the point at which the blades have sheared, and starting to slice the medium with the bullet... 2cd photo looks like a bit deeper penetration, and starting to enlarge the wound channel with blades and bullet together.... 4th photo down thru 7th , the blades have moved away from center enough to become secondary projectiles, and you can clearly see the impact on the medium it is having as it moves forward..... And the last photo the bullet of course, probably right at the end of penetration looses its stability at that point.... Very good work, I think it will be very interesting as these tests continue, and we will learn much from them. Thank you for the hard effort, believe me, I know what goes into this and it is not an easy task! Looks Like a great beginning here on the road to discovery about larger bore handguns and how, and if these type bullet are going to work and do what we want..... I am afraid there is much more to do..... LOL...... When I get the .452s I am going to go about it a bit different, although I have many many 45 Colts of all types, I have a Win M94 45 Colt that I am going to do all the test work with, hi velocity and very low velocity to get shear points... It will be much easier I think, as I am not much of a handgun shooter anymore, except for close and ugly! LOL....... Great work again, I can't say it enough...... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Micheal use the revolver more revolver users in 45 Colt than rifles in same caliber. The ability to work from the revolver is the goal isn't it? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Yes, correct JWP.. However, I can work with the rifle, be more accurate, duplicate any velocity far easier, any impact velocity far easier, and all we are after is terminals, and IT WON"T HURT MY HAND AT ALL......... HEH HEH................. In addition I might actually hit the terminal box with the rifle LOL. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Honestly. Someone shooting 6 pound super-powered rifles worrying about a little hand pain. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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No Man, not much into that pain thing..... Somewhere along the line the last few years both of my thumbs have become sprained somehow???? Don't know where or how, but shooting a heavy handgun caliber pushes back on my thumb and will hurt for a week or more, hard to even hold something in your hand, so I won't be doing that if I can help it. I will be leaving that to you big bore handgun boys to play with. If I test, I can test both .500 and .452 in a long gun, won't hurt me, and duplicate, download, and manipulate far easier than in a actual handgun, and in terminals, all we are looking at is targeted impact velocities, I can do that easier, and faster in a long gun. And not hurt my hands..... LOL.... Anyway, I have been so out of practice with big bore handguns I would be lucky to hit a barn door at 25 yds, much less the terminal box! Need to minimize damage on my range.... HEH HEH........ No, I will test with a long gun, and leave the heavy hitters to those with better skills! JWP and Whitworth, and Seasons fill that nitch................. By the way, I must mention that our very own Whitworth has a very nice book out, Big Bore Revolvers...... Prominently mentioned through out the book on advice, methods, and information is also our very own JWP475.... I think there are some others in there as well we might know.. Point is, while I have not had time to give it a proper read, I think this book is a Big Bore Revolver must for your library, a great deal of information in this book about bullets, handguns, methods, and great photographs... Try and find it somewhere..... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Nah, I was just kidding really. The only thing I shoot comfortably is a .44 Magnum with standard factory-type loads. Enough revolver for me, even though I'm fascinated with the bigger calibers, especially the .475 Linebaugh. Yes, JWP and Whitworth are impressively knowledgeable about big bore handguns. I usually try to read all their posts. Good guys. One gun that I found unpleasant to shoot was actually a Llama .380! The grip just seemed wrong and it transferred recoil to the bottom of my palm. Crappy gun anyway. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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My biggest concern is the weight. I think they are too light. We don't have the velocity, but we need the momentum that we get from weight. This could explain the velocity as well. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Thank you Michael Yes velocity was slow because to honestly be in a safe operating pressure I would need to back down my loads quite a but, I would like to see consistent 1600 out of a 200 grain bullet with the proper powders, like 296, 4227 ect To get this we need the bearing surface increased which means getting rid of the bands and adjusting the "seal tite Band" to get consistent crimp. Adjusting these now will save time later. The reason I write the 150 off, is like most know pistols need to operate in the first 10 percent of the pressure curve, so not having enough weight and bearing surface we are forced to used very fast powders. It “may” work in the 44, 357, 41 ect, but as case capacity increases all we would have is a pipe bomb using powders like these to achieve any sort of velocity. As noted by Whitworth we don’t achieve the velocities the rifles do, to help us to continue the momentum. Pistols need a balance point on the weight to work optimally, I am not an expert, just a student in this now, but have great minds behind me who have been around this for longer then I been alive. More testing to be done! Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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I got instant gratification at Barnes & Noble today, grabbed the last copy of Whitworth's BIG-BORE REVOLVERS, and met jwp475 in the opening pages too.  I am mostly a riflecrank, but I am cranky for revolvers too. Carried a Freedom Arms .454 Casull in a Bianchi Ranger Rig as backup for my Alaskan rifle hunting in the late 80's and early 90's. Shot fallow deer with it at Tennessee game farm in the late 90's. My pet Revolver of all time is a 3" Model 629 "Combat" with Goncalo Alves grips and the S&W-marketed holster that came out with it in ~1985/1986. That's my "Dirty Berry Special" for any dirty job that comes along.  Velocity handicap of short barrel makes it like a B&M rifle. I need to see if I can find a NonCon bullet for it to compensate with some extra bullet whomp. Or maybe I should go 4" on a 500 S&W.  No 500 Alaskan, nor 500 B&M Alaskan revolver for me, thanks. | |||
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On the "First big Bore" thread I shared a specific picture that I don't think I've shared here. (The bullets have been shared separately, but not compared in one picture.) The picture illustrates four different terminal results of a 350 grain TSX .416" bullet.  The left bullet was at an estimated 2050fps impact (2010 buffalo, 275 yard, older load follow-up 2650 fps muzzle). The second-from-the left was the 2011 buffalo, impact estimated at 2590 fps (from a 2825 fps muzzle, at 110 yards). The second-from-right was a follow-up on a 2011 hartebeest that went rump-to-shoulder and passed through some bone, estimated impact velocity over 2625fps. Petals sheared in a square pattern. Finally, on the right is an insurance shot on the 2011 buffalo, sternum-to-neck, 2825 fps muzzle, 2780fps estimated impact. The petals blew, but the bullet did its job 'after-the-fact'. The different expansions on the left illustrate the extremes of the TSX design, from initial, good expansion at 2000 fps impact, and excellent, full expansion at 2600 fps impact. A person can do some serious hunting with those. When a 2825 fps muzzle velocity is considered, then the left-bullet 'initial expansion' is what can be expected all the way to 375 yards, should the need on an antelope ever arise. While these are no longer the "optimum" bullet performance possible, they must still be called excellent , they give guaranteed penetration under worst-case-scenario, and they provide a nice bench mark for bettering. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Well after doing my initial testing I spoke to Dan and in the coming weeks I should see the 2nd gen copper .429's. The OAL will be a bit longer and the shank will be adjusted. There will be no bands cut and the front band will be adjusted for more consistent crimping. This will allow us to use the more traditional powders and get the higher velocities. Also some high-speed footage will be done this week with a broad array of bullets and calibers into the gel! Should be great to see in slow motion. Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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Thanks buddy..as usual you r right... just needed to hear that...
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Excited to see the slow motion video! Need to see direct comparison to competition for perspective. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I now have a .500 S&W M500 6.5". I blame Whitworth's book for this. But it will be a nice companion to the NEF Handi-Rifle of same chambering. | |||
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RIP, Whit and JWP have corruputed me after the book and a couple Hog hunts I am done for, I have a 500 Linebaugh in the works from JRH. Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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