Michael, I guess I need to come down later in the morning because you guys are going to be hung over!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael, I guess I need to come down later in the morning because you guys are going to be hung over!!!!!!

No man, will be up and around normal time, so will see you when you arrive.......

Some Terminals I did the other day, but just have not had time to put up or discuss at length.....

Rat gun bullets........

Michael

Have you noticed any difference in terminal performance between any of those bullets whether they have the tip on them or not?

I am thinking mainly of the larger calibre bullets and lower velocities.

Tony

For sure.. Damned tip makes a big difference. These bullets run on velocity, regardless, big or small. In the big bores there is a huge difference in trauma inflicted, and penetration as well with the Talon Tip added, and just 75-100 fps more impact at say 50 yds.

What I have seen here is that Low Shear Velocity can also be increased by at least a 100 fps, and probably a bit more. In other words, no tip, straight NonCon, LSVP may be 1600 fps impact, no shear, add the Talon tip, that will drop to 1500 or less. So tip is instigating some shear.

But the largest benefit is the extra impact velocity the tip provides.

Sam and I saw examples of this in his 500 NE this past fall in Australia. Sam was shooting two NonCons, the 535 without tip, at 2100 fps, and the 475 NonCon with the new Talon Tips also same velocity 2100 fps. The 475 with tip hit buffalo very much harder, easy to notice animal reactions, than what the 535 did. Penetration increased with the 475 NonCOn, and no bullet was recovered, all exited. We recovered several 535s.... The difference in Impact Velocity alone...

One of the big reasons Sam and I are rather excited about the Sabatti and the Heym regulating with the 475s now at 2350 ++........ Add a tip to that, and its just wicked.

Michael

Well I thought that might be the case.

One "trend" in bullets is the "plastic tip".

Its advantages is that it gives the bullet a sharp point, which does help a LOT, in retaining velocity, as range increases, and underneath the plastic the bullet can have what is basically a large HP, that because the plastic tip jams into it on impact the HP cannot be plugged up by hide, or mud/water etc on a wet muccy animal, and inhibit expansion.

The plastic tip has also been proven to be a good thing on handgun bullets as well.

I know it might look a bit strange to be using a SHARP pointed bullet on a 400 and up double, but the benefits just might offset the "funny look".

quote:

Some Terminals I did the other day, but just have not had time to put up or discuss at length.....

Rat gun bullets........

What’s the .338 WSM COAL? Very nice performance…

quote:

One of the big reasons Sam and I are rather excited about the Sabatti and the Heym regulating with the 475s now at 2350 ++........ Add a tip to that, and its just wicked.

This definitely sounds like a ‘huge hurt’ just waiting to happen…

That Rat 338 bullet looks pretty good.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Well I thought that might be the case.

One "trend" in bullets is the "plastic tip".

Its advantages is that it gives the bullet a sharp point, which does help a LOT, in retaining velocity, as range increases, and underneath the plastic the bullet can have what is basically a large HP, that because the plastic tip jams into it on impact the HP cannot be plugged up by hide, or mud/water etc on a wet muccy animal, and inhibit expansion.

The plastic tip has also been proven to be a good thing on handgun bullets as well.

I know it might look a bit strange to be using a SHARP pointed bullet on a 400 and up double, but the benefits just might offset the "funny look".

NE5450#2

Yes, I know what you mean. I did NOT care for the tip at all in the #13 NonCons in the beginning. First of all, in my mind, Dangerous Game Bullet, you don't need a damned tip! Not shooting DG at long range anyway, screw a tip....... Was my attitude, UNTIL I started seeing the "Terminal Effects" from this little bit of increased Impact Velocity, and started to get impressed very quickly. Now, I reckon I am touting putting those tips in, and very much especially for the double rifle shooters, as there is no worries and aggravation with magazine length, so absolutely NO DOWNSIDE at all for the doubles, and everything to gain! I also put these tips to the test, and they have been modified greatly from the very first ones. Big issue was that they did not effect terminals, and with the Hollow point drilled in the middle they go to hell on contact, and zero effect, or should say, zero negative effect on terminals, all to the plus side.

M

Well I can also see a need for a Tip on the larger calibre bullets for Bolt Rifles, to aid in feeding.

It does not have to be as long and "pointy" as for the long range cartridges.

It could be designed so as not to make the bullet OAL "too" long, but still aid some with the BC and more importantly aid in feeding.

If you look at some of the Westley Richards catalogs from back in the day they had several "capped" bullet styles, some designed to aid expansion, some designed to retard expansion.

The ammo for their version of the Paradox [Ball and Shot Guns], concept had a particular long pointy cap for their verson of the "slug" they used.

They called their 12 ga version the "Explora", and the 20 and 28ga versions the "Fauneta".

They considered the 28ga Fauneta perfectly suited for African plains game and North American moose.

Leslie Taylor gets the credit for inventing most of Westley Richards bullets.

Many were called "L.T. Capped Bullets.

They made both Round Nosed and "Pointed" capped bullets.

450

"Well I can also see a need for a Tip on the larger calibre bullets for Bolt Rifles, to aid in feeding."

As per what Woodleigh have done with their Hydro's.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
450

"Well I can also see a need for a Tip on the larger calibre bullets for Bolt Rifles, to aid in feeding."

As per what Woodleigh have done with their Hydro's.

Yes, that is an excellent idea.

Remember the Winchester Mod 70 in 458
and CZ 602's that seemed to have trouble
feeding "other rounds" because of the shape
of the Winchester 510gn bullet.

Just shows how a slight change can affect
feeding.


The Black caps on the Woodleigh Hydro's
don't seem to enter the body of the animal
- or not that we could see. Either they separated on impact or ??????????

450#2

quote:

It does not have to be as long and "pointy" as for the long range cartridges.

It could be designed so as not to make the bullet OAL "too" long, but still aid some with the BC and more importantly aid in feeding.

The Talon Tips for larger calibers are different than the tips for the rat bullets. They are not as long. And, in addition they have a Hollow Point down the center to make sure they breakup on contact and do not interfere with straight line penetration, and do not effect shear negatively.

The first design of this tip had no hollow point. At mid to lower velocity impacts, there was not enough impact to breakup the Tip. This allowed the tip to do some driving, and a pointy tip is worse than a drunk driver, cannot keep a straight line. This would cause the bullet to get sideways, 1/2 shear, tumble, go off course. The simple addition of the HP down the center solved all of that, not only weakening the tip itself, but allowing some hydraulics to go to work as well to bust up the tip, and actually give lower shear velocity as well.

Now, also with the BBW#13 designs, if the bands are moved forward on the nose, like they have to be for the lever guns, then this bullet can be seated deep, use the tip, and work in most magazines of bolt guns. But, as in life, there is a compromise, brass BBW#13s are not short, they are long, and take up case capacity.

I ran a test not so long ago. In .458 caliber, there is a 295 NonCon LG.. Lever Gun and a 295 SS, Super Short. Super Short has a nose projection of .600 inches above the top band, the LG has a very short nose projection. LG can be seated deep, add tip, work through the magazine, but because of loss of case capacity, you loose 100 to 125 fps. SS loaded out, starts off faster, however the nose projection is too long to work with a tip installed, in the magazine. What I found at 50 yard impact, even though the SS started 100-125 fps faster than the LG seated deep, with tip. The LG IMPACTED 85 fps Faster at 50 Yards! Rather substantial.

Recently I ordered two specific bullets, a 250 gr .458 and a 225 gr .416. Both are incredible success, for anything less than buffalo, incredible penetration, and trauma. Both designed to seat deep, use tip, work in the magazine..... Here they are, and you can see the different tip design that runs from 9.3 up to .500/.510 caliber.

quote:

The Black caps on the Woodleigh Hydro's
don't seem to enter the body of the animal
- or not that we could see. Either they separated on impact or ??????????

Nigel,

Might want to investigate the cap a bit more in depth to make sure it does blow, or breakup on contact. If it does not immediately, you have the possibility it can stay with the hydro far enough in to effect terminal stability. May not be an issue, and since I have not seen one I don't know how its attached or anything else, just mentioning this as a thought. I am sure it is coming off, but at what point is it doing so?

Michael

I agree with your thoughts, ideas.

I only got the chance to look at a few
but I know others have looked into it
further to make sure they were satisfied.

IMHO, looking at the wound channel,
the cap did not enter the body in any
of the cases. We had the time and place
to closely dissect the animal / wound
channels.

quote:

Recently I ordered two specific bullets, a 250 gr .458 and a 225 gr .416. Both are incredible success, for anything less than buffalo, incredible penetration, and trauma. Both designed to seat deep, use tip, work in the magazine..... Here they are, and you can see the different tip design that runs from 9.3 up to .500/.510 caliber.

Michael, I would agree. The 225 grain should be great on eland, but I would hesitate to recommend for buffalo. The .416" 300 grain Raptor would work for buffalo, and if stable in 16.5" barrels. (My ballistics program says it's stable: "2.185." )

quote:

IMHO, looking at the wound channel,
the cap did not enter the body in any
of the cases. We had the time and place
to closely dissect the animal / wound
channels.

That bullet produces dead straight line penetration, and good trauma up front, so unless its interfered with from outside forces, and you guys have observed good results, then the tip or cap is coming off correctly, sounds like to me anyway.....

quote:

Michael, I would agree. The 225 grain should be great on eland, but I would hesitate to recommend for buffalo. The .416" 300 grain Raptor would work for buffalo,

Tanz, 100% spot on. Me, personally, I would do the lighter bullet in a second, penetration is there, on buffalo.... However, since I have not yet done so, I cannot recommend anyone do so, and recommend no one does, at least until I know for a fact how either would perform on that greatest subject for terminal tests of all, the mighty BUFFALO..... Everything else is secondary to buffalo..........

M

Michael, what will the 250 grain 458 BBW13NC do top velocity in the super short with tip and without with the base band and second from bottom band only in neck for maximum case capacity? I think for max case capacity that bottom two band loading of the 250 will be amazing for the first 100 yards. Top thy bad boy up with Lil Gun!

Boomy

I have not seated it out yet, without tip, just to see. In that 458 Super Short I can run to 2700 fps in 16.25 inches of barrel, seated and working with the Talon tip.

After that, I did not see the point in doing anything else with it, in that cartridge.

Probably another 75-100 fps.

In the 458 B&M I can run 2850 in 18 inches of barrel, seated deep running tip. Again, I did not mess with it further.

In 45/70 Marlin Guide 18 inches, 2370 as I recall. Have not put it in the Lott, might be interesting?

Also might be interesting to do the 416 225 in 416 Remington too.

Michael

250@ 2,700! Now you are getting into 338 win mag performance but crap BC lol.
That is quite something. Would you say that is a 250 yard functional impact velocity envelope load?

quote:

at least until I know for a fact how either would perform on that greatest subject for terminal tests of all, the mighty BUFFALO..... Everything else is secondary to buffalo..........

That black ballistic tip is a wonderful idea. So basically it makes the bullet behave like a spitzer while in the air, but not necessarily in the target, right?

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
That black ballistic tip is a wonderful idea. So basically it makes the bullet behave like a spitzer while in the air, but not necessarily in the target, right?

Correct, breaks up completely on contact, leaving the bullet to do its job.....

So could you use a ballistic tip with a good-penetrating flat nosed bullet, which I suspect doesn't really perform well in air?

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
So could you use a ballistic tip with a good-penetrating flat nosed bullet, which I suspect doesn't really perform well in air?

Yes but flat nose solids are usually used for up close. I have suggested a non functioning hollow point to add the tip to act as a high BC solid flat nose but there is just not much maket for that it seems. The base of the non con/ Raptor penetrate quite well so this negates this unless you want 300 yard Texas heart shots.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
So could you use a ballistic tip with a good-penetrating flat nosed bullet, which I suspect doesn't really perform well in air?

Yes but flat nose solids are usually used for up close. I have suggested a nonfunctioning hollow point to add the tip to act as a high BC solid flat nose but there is just not much market for that it seems. The base of the non con/ Raptor penetrate quite well so this negates this unless you want 300 yard Texas heart shots.

Hum… Had to ponder this for a few minutes – especially the usability of the extra length of the bullet protrusion, standard FN Solid bullet protrusion plus the additional length of the Talon Tip…

So here’s what I came up with… Yes this would work under the following scenarios:
1) Double Rifles – all OK with zero COAL issues
2) Single Shot Rifles – all OK with zero COAL issues
3) Bolt Action Rifles – will require stepping up to the next length action; i.e., 1.645” B&M case must use WSM magazine length, 1.645” 2.24/2.25” B&M case must use 3.4” magazine length, 2.5” B&M case must use long 3.6” magazine, 2.8” MDM case must use the long-magnum length magazine.
4) Semi-auto Rifles – must be factory chambered for WSM/RSAUM cartridge and requires use of the 1.645” B&M case to properly function.

Ok – so now that we know the concept is doable – here’s what I perceive necessary for the FN Solid to properly function:
1) Limited to .366 caliber and above
2) Talon Tip insert diameter must be cut small – such as .224 Talon A insert diameter for the .366 caliber FN Solid, limited/progressive insert diameter as the FN Solid caliber increases in diameter.
3) Talon Tip projection to remain otherwise identical to that caliber’s TT.

So what you’d have is the standard BBW#13 HP NonCon matched with a modified BBW#13 FN Solid – each using a Talon Tip designed specifically for that bullet – each Talon Tipped bullet having an identical length resulting in an identical COAL including an increased impact velocity for each bullet…

So that’s it. Whether it’s worth pursuing is solely up to the individual as I’m sure Dan would be perfectly willing to make a special batch run of BBW#13 FN Solid (with extra small non-expanding HP) and a batch run of relating Talon Tips. Only you and your pocket book can determine whether it’s what you want to do…

Corrected 1st item 3.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
So could you use a ballistic tip with a good-penetrating flat nosed bullet, which I suspect doesn't really perform well in air?

Yes but flat nose solids are usually used for up close. I have suggested a nonfunctioning hollow point to add the tip to act as a high BC solid flat nose but there is just not much market for that it seems. The base of the non con/ Raptor penetrate quite well so this negates this unless you want 300 yard Texas heart shots.

Hum… Had to ponder this for a few minutes – especially the usability of the extra length of the bullet protrusion, standard FN Solid bullet protrusion plus the additional length of the Talon Tip…

So here’s what I came up with… Yes this would work under the following scenarios:
1) Double Rifles – all OK with zero COAL issues
2) Single Shot Rifles – all OK with zero COAL issues
3) Bolt Action Rifles – will require stepping up to the next length action; i.e., 1.645” B&M case must use WSM magazine length, 1.645” B&M case must use 3.4” magazine length, 2.5” B&M case must use long 3.6” magazine, 2.8” MDM case must use the long-magnum length magazine.
4) Semi-auto Rifles – must be factory chambered for WSM/RSAUM cartridge and requires use of the 1.645” B&M case to properly function.

Ok – so now that we know the concept is doable – here’s what I perceive necessary for the FN Solid to properly function:
1) Limited to .366 caliber and above
2) Talon Tip insert diameter must be cut small – such as .224 Talon A insert diameter for the .366 caliber FN Solid, limited/progressive insert diameter as the FN Solid caliber increases in diameter.
3) Talon Tip projection to remain otherwise identical to that caliber’s TT.

So what you’d have is the standard BBW#13 HP NonCon matched with a modified BBW#13 FN Solid – each using a Talon Tip designed specifically for that bullet – each Talon Tipped bullet having an identical length resulting in an identical COAL including an increased impact velocity for each bullet…

So that’s it. Whether it’s worth pursuing is solely up to the individual as I’m sure Dan would be perfectly willing to make a special batch run of BBW#13 FN Solid (with extra small non-expanding HP) and a batch run of relating Talon Tips. Only you and your pocket book can determine whether it’s what you want to do…

Yeah, I can see now where the problem would come when this ballistic tip is applied to flat-nosed bullets used in bolt rifles. This might likely affect OAL. Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

Michael and all:
To your knowledge, has anyone used the 145 grain 308 or 176 grain 338 Raptors on game? Was wondering if anyone has witnessed the petal separation effect that occurs with the big bore CEB BBW#13 brass hollow points. Cartridge choices are 300 Weatherby or 338/378 Weatherby.
I know, "Rat Guns".
I have a mule deer hunt coming up in Colorado this fall. Ranges might be greater than 200 yards(Up to 300, I'm told.). Might be stretching the 500 B/M Alaskan for this application. Thus,"Rat Bullets" will be needed.
Any anecdotal info? Thanks, Mike.

Mike, I've used the 130 grain Raptor on deer out of a 308 and they did a great job. Petals acted same as in big bores. Base penetrated almost full length of a whietail.

Sam

Sam

Didn't Doug use the Raptors in Africa? Dan used the 130 Raptor in Africa with Andrew on all he shot in the 300 WSM, all good success.

I don't know about the 145 308......

SOmeone recently used the 176 338 Raptor.... ????? I am pretty sure.

The 145 needs a fast twist with the tip attached.
Velocity over weight.

Michael,

Yes Doug did use 130 gr Raptors in Africa out of his 300 Jarrett. I don't remember what all he shot but they were all DRT.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Yes Doug did use 130 gr Raptors in Africa out of his 300 Jarrett. I don't remember what all he shot but they were all DRT.

Sam

Sam,

Whatever became of your sling project?

IBT

Somebody recently posted about a sheep or mule deer hunt where they used a 145 grn Raptor at a fairly long range. Sorry do not remember who but it was in the past two months or so.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeD:
Michael and all:
To your knowledge, has anyone used the 145 grain 308 or 176 grain 338 Raptors on game? Was wondering if anyone has witnessed the petal separation effect that occurs with the big bore CEB BBW#13 brass hollow points. Cartridge choices are 300 Weatherby or 338/378 Weatherby.

I know, "Rat Guns".
I have a mule deer hunt coming up in Colorado this fall. Ranges might be greater than 200 yards(Up to 300, I'm told.). Might be stretching the 500 B/M Alaskan for this application. Thus,"Rat Bullets" will be needed.
Any anecdotal info? Thanks, Mike.

I shot a mule deer at 470ish this past nov in Alberta. I used 145 raptor in a 300 win mag. I believe they were moving close to 3350. Yes most definitely had petal separation. Shot drifted a bit to the right. He was on a hard angle going away. Impact was mid neck just in front of shoulder, exit was opposite die of neck. Bullet traveled Through about 18" of muscle and still had 3 petal exit plus the core.

That's pretty remarkable considering the weight of the petals and the base. The base only weighed about 115 grains after petal sheer. The base without the petals has a .173 SD. 7 projectiles are better than one mushroom.

I have a couple of things for you to look at this morning........

The powers that be at CEB are doing some of their own testing, and using these really neat clear
gel blocks.... I am going to have to get a few of these for here... They are great....

Take a look at this 223, 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP, hit at 100 yds, impact velocity around 2700-2800 estimated.... Gel block 6x6.....

Is there any doubt at all how these blades work? What have I been telling you guys for the last 2+ years?



Michael

Those clear gel blocks are really cool. Really shows off a frozen moment in time about what these can do. You see the how these 22 bullets are perfect for deer or defense. One shot, seven projectiles. No hospital can put that humpty dumpty back together again. High speed video to follow soon I hope.
That star pattern is not just in wet newsprint? Someone show this to Terry Weiland and his ilk.

I notice on the CEB website that the .224 bullet is stated for use in bolt action rifles. Can this bullet be used in the AR-15. That would be my only interest in a rat gun!!