Seasons.....

First, I don't think there is anywhere close to enough testing with these new Handgun bullets to be able to make any determinations on anything, whether powder, weight, velocity or terminals. Right now, as far as I know every statement made thus far is pure Conjecture, with nothing to back it up? I have not even seen one yet, much less test terminal behavior. The only person I know of that is working much with them is Ken at CEB, which seems he is coming up with plenty of velocity to make the bullet work. How good it works in terminals is yet to be seen? How much velocity it needs to give terminal performance, remains to be seen? There are too many questions to answer before any determinations or opinions can be formed.

quote:

With revolvers especially as we go up in caliber the powder needs to burn in a smaller window of time and distance so we need the bore resistance to increase pressures to allow us to use powders that will give us the greatest velocity.

By all means, I concur, the reason that with lighter bullets in my big bore rifles I don't use the slow powders that I use with the heavy bullets. All big bore rifles I have worked with react to this.... For instance lets take my own 500 MDM as an example.... When using 400-550 gr bullets I am working with slower powders like IMR 8208... Still not a extremely slow powder but much slower than RL 7 and H-4198 when I drop to 300-350 gr bullets. I simply cannot get the velocity that is capable with the slower powder. Another big bore example.... 510 Wells... Using RL 15 with 475gr to 600 gr bullets, absolutely a great powder, takes the heavies to full potential. But not the new 350 gr NonCon. RL 15 just does not do it there, a heavy dose of H-4198 does it however. And there are many many more, in all big bore calibers that I have worked Light to HEavy with, and all the same story. So yes, if you go lighter for caliber then in a handgun or revolver, more than likely a move to a faster powder than normal should be the ticket for that application.

quote:

If we continue down this path of bands and fast burning shotgun powders it will not be feasible to work in the larger calibers .454, .475 .500 and .510.

Why?

Two things effect "Pressures" when it comes to absolute Bullet Design. Weight and bearing surface.

More bearing surface does indeed increase pressure, less bearing surface indeed reduces pressure. When we first started working with the BBW#13s, Sam and I were using 8 + bands on both copper, and brass versions. We decided to reduce pressures by cutting the number of bands in half, 4 bands only.

Using a 8 band 500 gr brass #13 Solid in my 50 B&M.. (.500 caliber) I was able to run the 8 bands at 2180 fps.. but at a cost of 67000+ PSI.

The EXACT SAME BULLET.... With 4 bands reduced pressures to 60000 PSI, A 7000 PSI Decrease in Pressure, and velocity goes to 2195 fps.... NOT LESS VELOCITY....... BUT SLIGHTLY MORE VELOCITY at REDUCED PRESSURES!!!!!!!!

I then tested a copper #13 as well, also .500 caliber, 8 bands vs 4 bands, and got nearly the same results.. a 5000 PSI decrease and no decrease in velocity.

Across the board the last few years the 4 band design of the current #13s have always without exception provided LESS PRESSURE, and more velocity than any other conventional full bearing surface bullet.

I really can't see that changing just because the bullet is now in a handgun?

quote:

If we take a look at the "Punch" Bullets which are a brass bullet filled with a lead core,

Yes, lets take a look at the Punch Bullet. I have worked with them in both .458 and .500 caliber, rifles of course. Do you view the Punch as a Trauma Inflicting Bullet.... Or a Deep Penetrating bullet? If I guess correct, you look at this as a penetrating bullet, that produces some trauma simply because of the Flat Meplat. Which would be the correct viewpoint. Now, you can in no way, compare the 150-200 gr .429 or .452 #13 Hollow Point NonCon to a Punch Bullet Solid... Of course the Punch is going to drive deeper, no doubt. However, will that Punch Bullet Hold up to a Proper #13 Solid? I think things begin to change dramatically at this point.

Example... .500 caliber Punch bullet 420 grs able to drive to 41 inches in my test medium at 1925 fps impact. Was not able to continue dead straight, but somewhat off course by 2 inches at the end of 41 total.... 375 gr North Fork New Nose Profile able to drive to 53-54 inches dead straight, yes, more velocity because of lighter weight... Weight equal pressure..... and by proper nose profile and some added velocity was able to out perform heavier weight, at higher pressure, and lower velocity.

I don't see this changing just because its in a handgun?



No, I promise I am not being combative or any thing such.... What I want is to see the results of proper test work, and make determinations from said test work. Without the tests put in to see what is what, everything else is based on what has been done in the past, opinions, conjecture and what have you. Until it is tested and proven, then I don't see how you can, Whit can, or I can, say one way or the other regardless of experience. No one has real experience with this in handguns, handgun calibers and handgun cartridges. Before decisions can be made about bands, cavity depths, solids, powders, pressures or anything else, somebody has to do some test work..... This is all I am saying pure and simple. I may very well be wrong, things may in fact change when doing the handguns.... But I want to see real test work that can be documented before making those sort of determinations... And it is not done yet............

Michael

quote:

Bullet technology gave us large meplats that have finally been co-opted by the rifle hunters! Big Grin Seriously, though, I think they need a little more weight and it will be a game changer.

Whit.... This is true, conversations I have had with you over the years, you have heard me credit the handgunners for being well ahead of the times with flat meplat bullets that drive deep and straight! You have heard me say this many times. Rifle Shooters were WAY BEHIND the curve on this, some up on the African Forum... Still ARE! LOL.................. We more knowledgable rifle shooters here in Big Bores, we are on target.......

More Weight..... OK, first define type of bullet application!!!!!!!

Trauma Inflicting......... Or Deep Penetration.............

Without doubt, the 150-200 Hollow Point NonCon is NOT going to penetrate as deep as any SOlid...Punch, or Buster..... We must DEFINE PURPOSE OF SAID BULLET..... Because we are talking about two separate entities.

The 150-200 HP NoNCon should be compared to expanding conventionals......

Then we talk about deep straight penetration in a total other conversation and purpose.... Buffalo for instance.... I don't want an expanding bullet for buffalo in the same sentence as HANDGUN.....

I see this as two totally different projects.... Same exactly as the rifle... NonCon/Solid...... Two different purposes, two different jobs, not to be put together......

M

Seasons44: What powder were you using when you got squib loads with lighter weight bullets?

Trapper and the boys at CEB have been playing with that 250 gr #13 HP NonCon I had done some months ago . They have put it in the 458 Socom and are having some excellent results. Earlier this week they tested the bullet, as I ordered, running it at 2100 fps in the Socom with LilGun... Getting excellent groups with it at 100 and 200 yds. A terminal test showed that at 100 yds velocity was down to around 1700, and blades did not shear.. I think we talked about that earlier.......

Trap put the cuts in the side, tested it yesterday......... Photos......



This is a 200 Yard Group.............




Below is what Trapper sent to me this morning.................

quote:

Just finished up this am. Muzzle vel,2110fps,100yd vel 1710fps,awesome penetration of petals to 9 to 10 inches deep.no petals recovered, they blew out of the gel block, very violent impact..600” groups.
200yd vel 1415fps,awesome penetration of petals to 9” deep. 2 petals recovered, 1.5” group.
260yd vel 1292fps, no shear. I’ve got to say this is a very impressive bullet for the socom, a serious hog killer!!! I used BLANK of LiL gun, BLANK pistol primers, COAL 2.240”.

Michael

Michael

That bullet looks very interesting.

Especially for longer range shots.

Slitting bullets, I wonder where that came from.

Keith

Good stuff!!!
That should be good when attacked by a bunch of bears Dump a mag of those pretty and lethal bullets in 458 SOCOM! The 450 Bushmaster peeps will want those in .452".

quote:

Below is what Trapper sent to me this morning.................

quote:

quote:
Just finished up this am. Muzzle vel,2110fps,100yd vel 1710fps,awesome penetration of petals to 9 to 10 inches deep.no petals recovered, they blew out of the gel block, very violent impact..600” groups.
200yd vel 1415fps,awesome penetration of petals to 9” deep. 2 petals recovered, 1.5” group.
260yd vel 1292fps, no shear. I’ve got to say this is a very impressive bullet for the socom, a serious hog killer!!! I used BLANK of LiL gun, BLANK pistol primers, COAL 2.240”.

Michael

Definitely good stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
Seasons44: What powder were you using when you got squib loads with lighter weight bullets?

Never had squib loads just were not near the velocity I was hoping for and I had some pressure signs,

Like Michael said we have allot of work to do, but it will be a labor of love and I am looking forward to the future testing

Michael the 458 Socom Bullets look great should be a hammer!
I know the Beowulf is on the short list as well, should be a great addition for the AR folks

Hog.... HEH........ Yep, seems I have heard of that somewhere..... ?????

Seasons... Yes, this bullet will be a boost for 458 Socom, I have no doubt about it....
I think the 300 gr .500 might get the same treatment for a Beowulf, but I don't know anything
about that cartridge... or if that bullet would work as well... Short nose profile for lever and
seat deep use tip in bolts....

M

I have a little hunt report this morning.....

Let me introduce you to my friend Troy Givens..... 1st LT Troy Givens US Army.... Troy and I became acquainted last year when he contacted me about a very nice Winchester M70 338/06 that I had decided to part with. Troy is one of our wounded warriors and was being sent on his first Safari May 2013. He had decided because of recoil limitations that 338/06 would be just about right for his first Plains Game Safari in South Africa.... I concurred with that. We struck up a deal for the rifle and he was one very happy individual.

Time was limited and also resources as we know like powder, primers and such, while we spoke about and worked some with the CEB Raptors, it ended up that there was just not enough resources, range time, to get them where they needed to be. Troy had a very good load already with the 225 gr Barnes TSX, which I told him he would be just fine with that bullet.

He has returned now, he took 17 total animals with his Win M70 338/06 and the 225 Barnes TSX, there were no issues, and I think he only recovered 1 bullet, and it was picture perfect, although I don't recall what animal, and do not have a photo of it. Rifle was successful, bullet was successful, and Troy had the time of his life, and due to excellent shooting, Troy was successful in his mission....

Here is Troy and his Last Day Kudu..................

Thank you for the story and the happy ending.
Nice job Troy.

It is good to be reminded that a 338-06 (= 338Ruger Compact ballistics) can handle almost any plains game situation. Put a bullet with guaranteed penetration into the vital area and the animal comes home for dinner.

Great job Troy!

PS
follow-up question:

Was the 225 grain .338"
the hollow point version (TSX)
or the blue-tipped version (TTSX)?

They will both work, I'm just curious to verify which one was involved. Sometimes people include TTSX when they write TSX.

Thanks

Tanz

Tanz

I think just plain old TSX........

Michael:

How you fixed for powder and primers. Don't want to see the lab shut down for lack of supplies!

Dave

We stay pretty well stocked on most things. I can probably run for a couple of years...
right now at current consumption........

Michael

Nice going Troy! Drop by the shop and show us the rest of the pictures.

As most have noted our Terminal Tests here have really come to a halt the last few months, and with good reason, what is out there worth the effort, that we have not been there, done it, already?
Not very much, not in big bores, we have done it all, and if not, it ain't worth doing! Of course this is just my opinion.

But, when something a bit new comes along, and its not a rat caliber, we will take a look at it, as always. And we have something a bit new that I think should be of interest to EVERYONE with a .458 caliber rifle, whether its a Socom, 45/70, 458 Win, Lott, or even bigger capacity. It is these two 250 gr NonCons from Cutting Edge Bullets.

I ordered up the first one back last fall, or later maybe, but a simple 250 gr BBW#13 NonCon. And it works very well. So pleased I was, that we did the 225 gr #13 NonCon in .416, and it is as good if not even better! These two bullets in 458 and 416 open up tremendous opportunities for anyone with either caliber, regardless of cartridge, remember, with a NonCon more is better, and there is NO UPPER END of velocity when in regard to Terminal Performance. In particular, for me, I wanted them so as to add versatility to my own B&M cartridges, and that is a tremendous success.

Now, Dan and the boys at CEB have taken that and refined the design to work a bit better in the 458 Socom. For lack of a better name, currently, I call it the 250 Socom. Trapper was testing these last week or so, and they made a quick change in the bullet to get shear velocity down, and now have that shear at 1400 fps or slightly less.... A very positive move. The 250 #13 is at 1700 fps LVSP.

Since the Socom is starting at 2100 fps, then this gives it a bit more range to get to 1400 fps.

They sent enough for me to do some test work with, and I received those Monday. I have a lot of interest in this, since I am leaving in about 3 weeks for Africa, taking one of my 18 inch 458 B&Ms, and I am testing and working with the 250 #13 HP at 2900 fps, intending to see how this bullet does on wildebeat, zebra, and whatever stands still long enough! So I quickly yesterday loaded up the 250 Socom to check POI at 50, and it is in the same hole with the 250 #13s, which I figured it would be. It does tend to be 25-30 fps slower than the same 250 #13. Neither here nor there it is of no consequence.

I was busting this morning to conduct a proper terminal test. But first, let me show you some differences in this bullet as opposed to the BBW#13.

As you can see below, the 250 BBW#13 has 4 bands, standard issue, and the 250 Socom has 3 bands. I had to find out about pressure, if there would be any real noticeable difference, and there really is not. In the 20 inch 458 B&M with 77/H-4198 the 250 #13 runs 2969 fps at 53151 PSI. The 250 Socom with the exact same load runs 2945 fps at 52883 PSI. Maybe that one band less is giving slightly less pressure, but that would have to be determined over several more tests, as many times there is that much difference between shots with the same load and bullet... So its really not determined on only one test.

You will also note that this bullet has a slightly more rounded nose profile. It is a very good looking bullet in my opinion. Also note the 4 Saw cuts in the nose to lower that shear velocity.





Now, the cavity is also not our typical 6 blade cavity. The 250 Socom is a 4 Blade Cavity, round, with the saw cuts.... Blades are bigger and I think might penetrate some deeper in ballistic gel, and or animal tissue, however here in my test medium which is far denser than either, I saw little difference in the amount of penetration of the blades.





And now, how does all that come together?

Very Extreme............... Do keep in mind, to get to 20 inches of penetration with ANY AND ALL CONVENTIONAL BULLETS, I have to get to 450-500 grs to get there. Conventional mind you! And not all 500 gr Conventionals will make it to 20 inches!!!!!!!!!!!! And hardly none of them will do as
much damage.......... I may have to find something larger than wildebeast to see what they do?






These are incredible bullets. I can tell you this today. If these 250 gr 458s, and the 225 gr 416s do as well as I believe they are going to do, and add as much versatility to these calibers as I suspect they will, I will NEVER as long as I am alive take to the field with another rat gun, or even medium bore, including my own 9.3 B&Ms... They will be retired permanently, and I will carry nothing less than 416, even if all I am shooting is baboons and impala...........

Michael

Those 4 petal, X, Non Con, SOCOM, Ogive 458 bullets came out pretty sweeeeeet.
Thank you for testing them and having all the fun. I need some for my 45-70.

Very interesting bullets and concept for the Socom.

Now you have one more test that needs to be performed - that being to have six slits cut in the nose of the 250gr BBW#13 bullet to the same depth as the 250gr Socom to determine if the LVSP is also reduced to 1400 FPS, or perhaps even slightly lower, without diminishing the terminal performance.

Assuming all positive results with the slotted BBW#13 bullet, the the only unresolved question would be which bullet is least expensive to manufacture.

Dan and CEB have been doing some good work, as we knew they would.

The smooth shape of the 'Socom' is definitely more of what I think an expanding bullet should look like. The flatnose and straight #13* ogive are fine for solids but they are irrelevant for expanding bullets since the nose deforms and blows away. The picture of the two bullets together gives an immediate impression that the rounded ogive will slip through the air more easily and will have a measurably higher BC.

Well, yes, I did measure the BC. However, something must not be recorded correctly since I got .79 as the BC. No way. I would jump for joy if it were even half of that.

The point, of course, is that progress is being made and these projectiles are improving. There is still progress on Terminals! ! !

Michael (the CEB folks and the entire list of people who have so generously worked n' shared their time n' knowledge with the CEB bullets)
Thank you.

I first became aware of CEB from the G&A magazine article where the 165 gr copper solids were used on a water buffalo - and no immediate funeral service followed (Mar 2012? issue)! I ordered some for use in my 3 6.5x54MS Model 1903's. Haven't loaded them yet, but getting closer to doing so!

I then learned of this Forum thread and began reading (I was much younger then!!), becoming a devout follower. I don't hunt as much as I use to, but greatly appreciate everyone's time n' efforts with the transitional development of the CEB's. Besides, "BIG is beautiful" when it comes to bore size!

This current development work with the .458 250 gr Socom has really gotten my attention - long being a .45-70 fan n' user.

best of regards to all, outsidebear

boom stick - do you have a .45-70 section out there? thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Iddins:
Michael (the CEB folks and the entire list of people who have so generously worked n' shared their time n' knowledge with the CEB bullets)
Thank you.

I first became aware of CEB from the G&A magazine article where the 165 gr copper solids were used on a water buffalo - and no immediate funeral service followed (Mar 2012? issue)! I ordered some for use in my 3 6.5x54MS Model 1903's. Haven't loaded them yet, but getting closer to doing so!

I then learned of this Forum thread and began reading (I was much younger then!!), becoming a devout follower. I don't hunt as much as I use to, but greatly appreciate everyone's time n' efforts with the transitional development of the CEB's. Besides, "BIG is beautiful" when it comes to bore size!

This current development work with the .458 250 gr Socom has really gotten my attention - long being a .45-70 fan n' user.

best of regards to all, outsidebear

boom stick - do you have a .45-70 section out there? thanks

Welcome!
Any 45-70 enthusiast can be a member of the "We band of 45-70ers" if that's what you mean. Mine is a Guide Gun. Would love to hunt black bear with it soon up by you. Love the Pacific Northwest.
This thread is longer than the Bible (literally) so must have taken you a few months to read. Welcome to Club CEB.

Michael,

I wonder what the LVSP would be if the saw cuts went to the first groove. Where the wall thickness was a bit less.

Have you tried the 250gr SOCOM in one of your old LOtts/24" ?

Keith

I want to try these out in my Browning BLR .450 Marlin cartridge. With the extended throat, I think I should be able to get more than decent velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Iddins:
Michael (the CEB folks and the entire list of people who have so generously worked n' shared their time n' knowledge with the CEB bullets)
Thank you.

I first became aware of CEB from the G&A magazine article where the 165 gr copper solids were used on a water buffalo - and no immediate funeral service followed (Mar 2012? issue)! I ordered some for use in my 3 6.5x54MS Model 1903's. Haven't loaded them yet, but getting closer to doing so!

I then learned of this Forum thread and began reading (I was much younger then!!), becoming a devout follower. I don't hunt as much as I use to, but greatly appreciate everyone's time n' efforts with the transitional development of the CEB's. Besides, "BIG is beautiful" when it comes to bore size!

This current development work with the .458 250 gr Socom has really gotten my attention - long being a .45-70 fan n' user.

best of regards to all, outsidebear

boom stick - do you have a .45-70 section out there? thanks

Ken

Welcome. While you are not really new, and have been lurking about, it is good to hear of you, and very happy you have decided to join in with us. Thanks for the kind words, and its the very reason we do what we do, to give folks options, and to see if we can improve on what we have to choose from.

I think there is a lot to be excited about with both of these .458 caliber 250 gr bullets. I am excited, so much so I will be putting them to work in a few weeks on some plains game to begin with. The test work we have done so far tells me that we have more than enough penetration to do about what we wish with them, and in my thought process, we just turned our 458s into fine plains game, and thin skinned dangerous game cartridges with this bullet.

Right now, in my 458 B&M that I am taking for this job, POI is insane, I am sighted 3/4 inch high now dead center with the 250 at 2900 fps. My 450 gr #13 Solid at 2220 fps is 3/4 inch below it... At 50 yds, basically same POI... And a couple of other bullets are still within POI at 50 with it as well.

I worked with 45/70 some with the 250 #13, nearly identical except nose profile and the cuts in nose, and had it at an easy 2350 fps to near 2400 fps in an 18 inch guide gun, with RL 7. Terminals were good. Now with the Socom and the slits/cuts, and 1400 fps LVSP, the Socom would be the preferred bullet for the 45/70s.....



Keith

No, I have not had time to put them in the 458 Lott yet..... I would guess 3100+ pretty easy???

Max..... You should be able to smoke them in your BLR.


I am taking some of both, 250 #13s, and the 250 Socoms.... Both are in the same hole at 50 yds. I am not sure we will be able to tell a lot of difference between either in the field, but I am liking the Socom and its cuts as a more all around bullet than the #13 without the cuts. Both will perform at high velocity, so does not matter, but with Socom and 45/70, options are better in my opinion with the 250 Socom and LVSP at 1400. 4 blades on the Socom, 6 blades on the #13? Not sure it will make much difference really. We will find out.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Can I ask your opinion on the shear of the petals of the 250gr noncon vs the 250gr socom.

You've carried out some pretty extensive testing on the noncons in both test medium and in heavy game so you know the shear and penetration of these works well. Even going to heavier petals on the medium bores to aid penetration.

With the socom having the cross cuts to initiate the shear at a lower velocity. Do you think the petals on these have the potention to "blow up" as it were on heavier skinned game and the petals not penetrate? If the petals break away earlier they may deflect before penetration? I suppose I am asking how far in does shear begin with each of these styles of projectile.

I guess this could be adjusted with the diameter of the hollow and the depth of the cross cuts.

Cheers
Rhodes

Hi Rhodes

Yes, you bring up a valid point, one of which I had some concerns as well with the cuts or slits in the side.

JD Jones has done a lot of work with these sort of bullets for the Whisper Cartridges, and sub sonic velocity. Same story, trying to get shear at extremely low velocities. Some of the cuts they did are extreme, and so much so that running some of those at higher velocity the blades would actually shear before hitting the target, but worked extremely well at sub sonic velocity. So, you have to be careful with this, you can get too much.

CEB, Trapper tested at 458 Socom velocity with this 250 Socom, great results in ballistic gel at low velocity, and normal Socom Velocity. I had some concerns about running at higher velocity, but the difference in these is the cut goes about 1/2 the depth of the cavity, while it gains us an extra 300 fps in Low Shear, it does not seem to change the dynamics of how it works, and at higher velocity impacts works the same as the normal #13 HP NonCon.

We must remember that my test medium here, wet print/magazines, is dense, and I say it is tougher, or more dense than animal tissue, or ballistic gel. I think that it will keep a check on potential issues better than most mediums because of this. A bullet gets no free ride here. From the test last week, the blades appear to shear exactly the same with the Socom as the #13 NonCon. Being 4 instead of 6 blades, they are larger blades. I think in animal tissue these larger blades may penetrate slightly more than the 6 blades, but whether we can actually tell or not will be negligible somewhat, unless we start getting exits of blades on a regular basis with one over the other.

Shear begins with both Socom and #13 NonCon at 1.5-2 inches in either medium, gel or my mix here.

It would seem that Dan and the boys at CEB got the cross cuts exactly right on this. Not too deep, and not too shallow....

Michael

Great stuff Michael and thanks for the feedback.

I'm looking forward to your test results with these bullets in Africa.

Enjoy your trip.

Rhodes

Sure is a little slow here on AR the last few days, even weeks..... Oh well... What do you do? I keep shooting, and getting ready to go on a bullet testing/rifle testing mission in a couple of weeks. Everything is falling into place for that.

North Fork is back in the US, has been for a couple of weeks. Spoke to John last week, and told me about their great experiences in Namibia. I forget how many animals they took, but it was a lot! Of course I believe they were using "North Fork" bullets.... ...... Good success on all, no failures of any sort as I hear. I do recall part of the conversation about how much better the 375 caliber did than the 30 caliber rifles.... No big surprise there, and if it had been 416-458 compared to 375, it would have been yet another jump in performance... Caliber Counts! Waiting on some photos, and more detailed reports from John, soon as they arrive, I will post, if he gets them to me before leaving......

Our buddy Pagosawingnut returned, buffalo and a few other assorted critters, with 416 and 500 Nitro, #13s used, all successful. According to Rick, 416, 370 #13 NonCon, buffalo 50 yds, buffalo goes 10-15 yards piles up stone cold...... He can continue in more detail if he wishes......

Our buddy LionHunter should be returning soon.... He and his SIL using 500 Nitros and 510/475 #13s, and also 458 B&M with some assorted ammo, and maybe a 250 #13 NonCon I sent him with? He is hunting with Karl in Namibia as well.... I think I saw Mike with a big ROAN.... And possibly 458 B&M... But yet to be confirmed...........

Many others going to the field over the next few weeks, and months... Hopefully we can get some reports on bullets, rifle, cartridge performance..................

My son Matthew returns today from a few days fishing in North Carolina... He sent this to me last night, and if you know how big Matt is, then you can see these fish are not minnows. I am not much of a fisherman, and I think I would have wanted a good large caliber bullet for these two......

Michael, thanks for the heads-up on the hunting reports.

I guess that we are in another "dry cycle" on AR.

Keith

Those "Dorado/Dolphin, are some of the best eating Salt Water fish. Well done...


PS., they are "Dolphin Fish", not "Flipper [mammal] Dolphins.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael, thanks for the heads-up on the hunting reports.

I guess that we are in another "dry cycle" on AR.

Keith

Keith, how are you doing?

Are you going to come to DSC in 2014? If so be sure to come by and say Hi.

A little history on Hog Killer....

Once upon a time he came to a DRSS [Double Rifle Shooters Society] get together in a Hotel room at DSC.

He brought his Big Bore Bolt Rifles, baised on 1917 Enfield actions to the get together.

The ONLY reason He did not get thrown out the window, [we were several stories above the ground], was that his 1917's were pretty good Bolt Rifle Trash...

AND, he is a "pretty good guy" as well.

Keith,
Hope to see you there...

Getting TBP "withdrawal" symptoms - shaky hands...slurring words, walking sideways Oh wait...that could be due to too much scotch! Oh well...

DocM, how go the preps for the African venture?

Just back for 48 hours with 2 bull Ele, Hippo, Roan and Zebra. Still in recovery mode but Michael has asked that I post performance details.

These were the first two trophies taken with the new 250gr tipped BBW#13 from a 20" bbl 458B&M; they worked fine on zebra and roan. Beau shot zebra at 120 yards quartering on through the left front shoulder and heart, coming to rest in the intestines; zebra kicked hind legs once and fell DRT. Roan was killed on follow-up after I wounded him when the sticks collapsed in a burnt over area. Follow-up was easy due to blood loss. Roan found laying up and finished. Roan completes my African 29 category.

Two ele bulls were the first killed with the 510gr BBW#13 solids from 500NE DRs. Mine dropped to the shot on a side brain shot that went 1.5" high and finished DRT. Beau's was a going away side raking shot on a moving ele through the rib-cage and through the top of the lungs. Ele was dead 100 yards from the shot.

The hippo was killed by Beau with a 9.3 of Karl's at 50 yards in the floodplains when he raised his head. The 458B&M was not used due to optical mounting problems that developed. Optics on all rifles were "off" when we arrived, apparently from excessive vibration of the aircraft enroute from SFO.

Michael says Karl Stumpf has posted a pic of my Roan and Beau's Ele bull on his Facebook. Good luck on your upcoming hunt in approximately one week, Pal, and shoot straight!

Congrats! Welcome back. Thank you for the report
I hear Zebra are tough so that 250 did quite a number on him. I would say that 250 is quite a PG bullet. Look forward to pics.

Welcome home Mike..... Good to have you back!

Good to hear of the success of the 500 Nitro.... 510 #13s on the elephants. From the sounds of it, they did what they were supposed to do, and what they were designed to do..... Curious... On the side brain shot, the bullet exit?

And now you have done some preliminary work for me, with the 250 NonCons and 458 B&M..... I think with the success on the roan, and in particular the zebra, that I won't have any issues at all with these little bullets. Roan are very big animals, second only to eland, and tough as well. The only roan I have shot was in Tanzania 2005, 80 yds, 416 Remington, 340 Woodleigh Soft at 2550 fps. Frontal shot, roan dropped to the shot, out of sight! The next second, that rascal was on his feet, looked around, found us, and made a charge dead straight for us! Incredible....... I let him get to about 25-30 yards and hit him a second time, frontal chest, and he was down for the count. I wonder what in the hell he had on his mind? To us, it appeared to be an all out charge....... I had a crazy blesbok do that once too, only he had not been shot prior.

Zebra... Lets see, I have shot a few zebra, 338 Winchester, 358 STA, 9.3 B&M, 416 Remington, 458 Winchester, 50 B&M and I don't recall other calibers, I think that is it. The only ones I ever remember dropping to the shot was with 458 and 50.... Everything else ran like hell, then came down after 30-100 yards! Zebra are TOUGH critters. That 250 NonCon going all the way into the intestines is a long way, as I thought, penetration is not going to be an issue here. I will be doing the same thing with this bullet, and the new 250 Socom in a couple of weeks... We leave next week, but don't hunt until July 7th.

Esskay... preps are complete, rifles packed, ammo loaded and packed, equipment packed and ready, so I think we are ready......

Keith.. Next time you raid the DRSS come get me, I will go with you! HEH HEH........

Michael