quote:

I notice on the CEB website that the .224 bullet is stated for use in bolt action rifles. Can this bullet be used in the AR-15. That would be my only interest in a rat gun!!

Oh man...don't mention these two things in the same sentence...wait...is that a drone I hear???

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

I notice on the CEB website that the .224 bullet is stated for use in bolt action rifles. Can this bullet be used in the AR-15. That would be my only interest in a rat gun!!

Oh man...don't mention these two things in the same sentence...wait...is that a drone I hear???

Buzzzzzzzzz.............. Just went over.... On its way to TX...... HEH HEH.......

Not that I would know anything about those sorts of things, but as I understand and have been told by others that the bullet can be used in any rifle.... Thats what I heard....... Also I heard.. That there is a 50 gr Raptor, with tips that works good, and a 40 gr Raptor with tips that work good as well..... This is what I was told....

Ain't afraid of no drone boys! I've shot down several of them in the past. One made from a converted F4 Phantom! Yeah Baby, Hornets rule!!

Michael,

Here's where you can get ballistic gel.

http://clearballistics.com/

quote:

Originally posted by coyote wacker:
Michael,

Here's where you can get ballistic gel.

http://clearballistics.com/

Coyote

Yep, that is correct... Been over there a few weeks ago, but just have not ordered any....
Thanks however, and also, guys, with this stuff you can test your own at home, and see for yourself how things work. As I recall you can remelt this and form it back very easily.

M

For several thousand dollars you might catch a #13 solid.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
For several thousand dollars you might catch a #13 solid.

Lol!
I think we all know the solids work great especially you.
One of the few bullets that can do a Frontal suppository shot on a packyderm.
Anyone have a camera that can do high speed slow motion video to shoot this?
That 6x6 is perfect for the 22 minus the base.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
For several thousand dollars you might catch a #13 solid.

Lol!
I think we all know the solids work great especially you.
One of the few bullets that can do a Frontal suppository shot on a packyderm.
Anyone have a camera that can do high speed slow motion video to shoot this?
That 6x6 is perfect for the 22 minus the base.

Here you go...
http://www.mctcameras.com/index.html

No price listed so I guess it'll be far more than a few thousand dollars...

There are quite a few consumer digital cameras that do this now like the Nikon 1 series of cameras. You could get one for about $600 and use it for normal photography as well.

Clearly, the radial petal penetration is spectacular and must be DEADLY on thin-skinned game, but I worry that the petals will not make it into the boiler room of a Cape buffalo, especially if shot from the front or through the heavy muscles and bone of the shoulders. Even if the petals make it into the boiler room under these conditions, after penetrating the sternum and shoulders - with all their associated connective tissues, muscle, and bone - I worry that the mommentum of the small petals would be reduced significantly, such that they would lose much of their destructive qualities. Thus, I went with a more traditional premium bullet (Northfork SS), because Cape buffalo often give you that frontal shot - in fact, in my experience that's been a very common presentation, although the one shown below was side presention. The second buffalo I killed on this trip was a classic frontal presentation, which in my experience has occurred in about 50% of the buffalo I've taken.

This guy was in the dirt with one shot and ran only ~20 yrds.



Note the massive destruction from the 400 gr. SS .416 Northfork.



From left to right: Bullet #1. 99.5% weight retention on Northfork 400 gr. SS, which entered 2nd buffalo at ~200 yds while I was attempting a Texas heart shot as the 2nd buffalo was running away wounded from 1st NF. Impact velocity ~2150 fps. The first NF was off center frontal and was not a clean kill shot - this was my fault and not the gun's or the bullet's fault. But, I collected myself for the third shot (center frontal) thru the heart that put the second buffalo in the dirt for good. Before the third shot, IMO the bull was squaring-up for a charge. Bullet #2. 88% weight retention on Northfork 400 gr. SS, which entered 1st buffalow at ~75 yds and did the heart damage as shown. Extimated impact velocity ~2500 fps. This was essentially a one-shot kill, but I put a second thru his spine as an insurance shot. Bullet #3. ~100% weight retention on Barnes 400 gr. TSX taken from wildebeest killed with Texas heart shot at ~300 yrds. Estimated impact velocity 2000 fps. Bullet #4. 92.5% weight retention on Barnes 400 gr. TSX taken from a zebra killed at ~100 yds. Estimated impact velocity ~2450 fps. This TSX lost some petals.

If you read the reports especially above 375 it does. There even is a 3 petal for 9,3 that was designed for that. This may be new school with these bullets but I would forget the shoulder aim for the heart and lungs with these bullets. Listen to the reports from the PH's who have used them. Obviously softs work and this is a bit different but does more damage with its 7 projectiles.

AIE

You have made absolutely excellent choices of bullets for your buffalo... In fact, for conventional it does not get any better than North Fork... Top of my List for Conventional
Bullets.......

But you are incorrect about big bore blades of BBW#13s getting into vitals of buffalo... Everything from 416 up has zero issues getting inside and raising hell with vitals. Frontal is actually the best, when the bullet and blades hit the heart it plows a permanent 2-3 inch hole through the heart, I have done it with 458s and .500s. From side shots the blades have moved far enough away from center bullet that they are now secondaries.

Currently at this point I have either shot, or been with, or seen, 39 Cape Buffalo and Australian Buffalo shot with BBW#13 NonCons with 458, .475. .500, and .510, and blades entered body cavity on every single one of them.

375 and 9.3 did have some issues with the blades getting through shoulders, but in my opinion, neither of those are real buffalo calibers to begin with. Oh yes, they killed all the buffalo shot, but not like 416 +.... That blade issue has been rectified on 375/.366 by only have 3 larger blades instead of 6 smaller blades. But regardless of that, its still only a medium caliber and not much of a buffalo caliber anyway you cut it.

At any rate, you did really good with the North Forks, and like I said, they are top notch, first class bullets all the way, and they perform as they should. I have shelves full of them myself. Thanks for the report too, excellent.

Michael

Michael

Ackley summed up my thoughts which we have discussed before.


Boom sticks "but I would forget the shoulder aim for the heart and lungs with these bullets."

Restricting yourself is not a solution which
I think the above is to an extent.

I will try to post the damage to a heart
of a Water buffalo, two identical shots,
one a RN SN Woodleigh, one a Hydro.

Below is a pic of the Buff I shot at approx 40yrd with my 400H&H using a 370gr NC at 2450 fps. Found 1 petal in the brisket and the base of the bullet in the stomach. (Need to come up with a hand held metal detector)
the Buff piled up around 70yrds

Sorry forgot to say a frontal shot slight quartering to.

I meant I would not try to wait for a shot to line up the shoulder and heart. That would be limiting.

Nope, took apart too many buffalo and know for a fact blades from big bores, 416 +++ go into the chest cavity, go through hearts, lungs, vessels and anything else they encounter. Blades won't of course exit buffalo, and never stated they would, but they get caught up in internal vital organs for a fact, have found some, and have seen the results of many..........

This is the heart of Sam's big Australian sweeper, broadside with 535 and 475 NonCons 500 Nitro......... and below that, the lungs.....

Here in the heart you can very plainly see a blade that entered the heart;



Lungs where blades were working with the bullet to make this hole.....



This is a frontal shot on a buffalo with 500 MDM and 460 #13 NonCon, this heart was nearly cleaved completely in two....... Blades were working with center bullet to do this.....



This is another buffalo heart from frontal shot with 458 B&M with 420 BBW#13 NonCon, blades were still traveling with center bullet and punched this massive hole through the heart.... Bullet was found after a great deal of effort on the other side of the stomach......... having gone straight through the stomach and all the contents.... Blades were found in the goo when the vitals were dropped........




Now this is not a buffalo heart, but it is a pure shoulder shot eland.... Eland are BIG and in body size as big as buffalo, and sometimes bigger..... This is the heart of an eland from the shoulder shot... Again, blades working and inside the body cavity... This was 500 MDM and 350 Raptor..



Now, this is not a buffalo shoulder, but it is a 4x4 Treated Post, shot with a 420 gr .474 caliber BBW#13 NonCon HP..... All the blades EXITED this 4x4 Treated Post, in that very distinct, always predictable, star pattern of 6 blades surrounding the center bullet.....



Now all ya'll use your own judgement, if you still doubt then that is fine with me.... I have used my judgement on the matter, you can do the same...

Enjoy, looks to be a fantastic weekend here in SC, warm weather, Sun Shine..... And wish I had some
SHINE........ LOL...................




OK OK... I actually do have some "white".. SO I will get through the weekend just dandy thank you!

Enjoy

Michael

Hey Michael, in some of the proceeding posts you mention .416+ NonCon
performance with the petals working with the bullet shank.

Would the .411 bullet (.400 H&H) fall into that category also?

More along the lines of the .416 as opposed to the .375?

Cheers, Allen

Allen

I would think so, not enough difference between .411 and .416 to spit on..... Blades would be the same size or so close you really could not measure or tell the difference.

There have been plenty of buffalo shot with the .416 NonCons, I have not done so myself "YET"... however there are plenty of reports here from guys that have and with extreme success.....

Michael

Michael-

Show 'em the pic of Beau's Buff heart and surrounding mess from a frontal shot on his Cape Buff last year with a NonCon from a .416Rem. Devastating! Buff went no more than 30 yards before piling up and issuing its' death bellow.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Michael-

Show 'em the pic of Beau's Buff heart and surrounding mess from a frontal shot on his Cape Buff last year with a NonCon from a .416Rem. Devastating! Buff went no more than 30 yards before piling up and issuing its' death bellow.

Mike

Thanks for the reminder, I forgot I had those photos....... Big Mess.....

Hell Michael, you even starting to get me convinced.

Has anyone had a chance to try the 9,3 255 grain three petal TSG bullets out yet?

The 1st week of march dogs and I drove from Vermont to south western Pa for a few days of preserve shooting at Hunting Hills Lodge in Dilliner Pa.
An alternate route would put me a few miles from the CEB headquarters so a phone call to Dan Smitchko found me heading that way. Unfortunately Dan was not in but got to meet with Ken Kempa new to CEB management. After discussing my experience's and successes in Africa with CEB bullets I got the .10c tour, a few pictures, a new hat and a few more bullets for the shelf, one box being the .338 diameter 176gr Raptor that I'm thinking of using in my 338 Win mag on a spring Black Bear hunt.
Of CNC Lathe machines on the floor two were designated for turning bullets.
Great product, and incredibly helpful staff, and sorry to have missed Dan S as he instrumental in getting .411 dia bullets turned for my 400H&H.

Ken Kempa and CEB's CNC lathes


Turning brass into bullets..

Very nice - congrats on the tour and goodies...

quote:

Hell Michael, you even starting to get me convinced.

Has anyone had a chance to try the 9,3 255 grain three petal TSG bullets out yet?

Dave

TSG? I am running a bit slow this morning I am afraid.

Only thing comes to mind is the #13s we did in the 3 blades to see if they get through buffalo shoulders, they do, but still 9.3 does not impress buffalo much. Dead? Oh Yes, but not drop dead!

You might be talking about something else TSG?

Michael

Zephyr

Wow, looks like you had a nice visit! I would like to get up there one day and see those machines spit out bullets myself.

Ken is a good friend of mine and has spent time here with me on the compound! He is going to be a huge asset to CEB and to Dan. We are going to see lots of good things come out with Ken there to help. Dan absolutely needed some extra help there, and Ken is just the chap for the job.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Hell Michael, you even starting to get me convinced.

Has anyone had a chance to try the 9,3 255 grain three petal TSG bullets out yet?

Dave

TSG? I am running a bit slow this morning I am afraid.

Only thing comes to mind is the #13s we did in the 3 blades to see if they get through buffalo shoulders, they do, but still 9.3 does not impress buffalo much. Dead? Oh Yes, but not drop dead!

You might be talking about something else TSG?

Michael

Michael:

CEB calls the three petal non con their TSG bullet i.e for Thick Skinned Game.. They make them in 9,3 and .375, rat calibers LOLOLOL

quote:

Michael:

CEB calls the three petal non con their TSG bullet i.e for Thick Skinned Game.. They make them in 9,3 and .375, rat calibers LOLOLOL

OK OK.... Ya see, I don't know everything! LOL.......... I had not even paid any attention to that.

Last year just a few days before leaving for Australia Dan and I had a talk about this, decided to make 3 larger blades instead of 6 smaller in 9.3 for me to test, since I was taking a 9.3 B&M to play with. 9.3 B&M was a huge success in South Africa in April last year, so decided to see for myself about rat calibers and buffalo, even with the very best of trauma inducing bullets. While the 3 blade bullet worked, blades got through the shoulders, 9.3 caliber was not impressive on buffalo........ And if 9.3 is not impressive on buffalo, then 375 is not impressive on buffalo either.

But wait, it does take a lot to impress ME...... It takes a hell of a lot to IMMPRESS OLE BUFF!!!!!! And 9.3/375 DOES NOT..............


Thanks for Educating me Dave..... TSG... OK, got it now!
M

HANDGUNNERS...............................

Long time coming.... Hogkiller and I spoke about this rather extensively over a year ago now. BBW#13 HandGun Hunting Bullets! They are here, and in the works now.......... Test work is in progress. Now, I am just reporting. I am not personally involved yet, Dan, Ken, and CEB Crew are working on these. Dan is using strictly copper bullets. He is also using the .350 deep cavity he and I explored with the very first, and only copper BBW#13 NonCons in .474. The shallow cavity allows the blade to shear, where a longer cavity copper wants to banana peel. We got this correct on the very first go in copper. Lucky or smart? Does not matter, got it right. Carrying this same cavity depth over to handgun, and copper, and also putting a slit in the top, and only 4 blades, not six, so far has been successful, as you can see in the gel block.

I know you may have lots of questions on this, so fire away. It has been a week since Dan and I talked about it and some things I have forgotten! I forget the velocity of this, load, and all that. I know they are working at getting low velocity shear points. I know that in addition to .429, there will be bullet tests in .451 and .452, and coming .500 caliber.

As I get info, I will pass it on..... I expect before too long I will have some of the 45 caliber bullets here, both for 45 ACP and 45 Colt.... I will be conducting some tests as well with these.

Handgun bullets, they should work in muzzleloaders also with a sabot.

I picked up a Savage Model 10M II, in it you can use smokeless powder. One of the powders of choice is a favorite of the 50 B&M Super Short LilGun. Now all Dan needs to add to the .452 handgun bullets is a tip.

Actually if he would make a muzzleloader bullet it could be a straight sided bullet cutting down on machining.

Great hunting bullet! Do the slits have an angle on them? Looks like the slit is deeper in the cavity from the pic. Tips for muzzle loaders?

Well the cat is out of the bag!

I been in contact with Dan about these .429 bullets for the last couple months, and so far they look great. I have a few boxes but have not been able to get out and test them just yet mainly due to the weather.

I will be running them out of a revolver and a couple of rifles and going to test them in the same manner with a wet pack.

The only foreseeable issue we may have as of right now is not having enough pressure to get complete powder burn with some slower powders. Though as Dan said pressure can be generated and this will be a must at we step up in caliber size.

Maybe a hemispherical base to add capacity? The extra capacity might help with say a 45 ACP.

quote:

I will be running them out of a revolver and a couple of rifles and going to test them in the same manner with a wet pack.

Very Excellent Seasons! Glad to know you are on board and helping with some of this test work, especially in .429. I don't own one. Years ago I could see no reason to have .429 and 45, so I went totally 45Colt or 454. I have every 45 Colt you can think of, and 45 Colt in a Win 94, so I can ring hell of those, but not 44. And, you mention something of great importance "RIFLE".... These .429s and .452s are going to be incredible in the little 44 Mag and 444 Rifles, and 45 Colt M94s!

.452s are coming at some point so when I get those we will go to it. I have a good bit of data on 45 Colt in handgun and rifle......

Michael

quote:

Long time coming....

WOW I thought this was long ago forgotten!

The gel block looks great, early seperation of pedals, with more penitration to follow.

Just curious, why copper and not brass?

Looking for the .451 for my acp. They would be a great "carry load".

What is the lvsp?

Looking good guys!

Keith

Keith,

Michael or Dan will likely give the correct answer. That said, if I remember correctly the brass bullets have a higher initial start pressure than the copper bullets - they're the same at the 2nd pressure mark - so likely this was considered an important consideration for handguns...

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Long time coming....

WOW I thought this was long ago forgotten!

The gel block looks great, early seperation of pedals, with more penitration to follow.

Just curious, why copper and not brass?

Looking for the .451 for my acp. They would be a great "carry load".

What is the lvsp?

Looking good guys!

Keith

Keith

Copper because ATF says copper is a good thing! And with some other things coming Copper is better, and legal......

LVSP????? They are working on it.....

More to come............. Yes, .451 is being discussed by the way.....

One thing I think about copper, even if you go below LVSP, the copper should still peel back or open up some, even if blades hang on, still getting trauma, not as much I concur, but better than none.... I think.

Michael

Sounds good!

Keith

I've been away for a while. This is amazing. NonCons for handgun calibers. Now if I can get the same loads to function well in my Blackhawk and my 1894 Marlin-45Colt. Guess I can put my 45-70 and 458 in the back of the safe-no need for them

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I will be running them out of a revolver and a couple of rifles and going to test them in the same manner with a wet pack.

Very Excellent Seasons! Glad to know you are on board and helping with some of this test work, especially in .429. I don't own one. Years ago I could see no reason to have .429 and 45, so I went totally 45Colt or 454. I have every 45 Colt you can think of, and 45 Colt in a Win 94, so I can ring hell of those, but not 44. And, you mention something of great importance "RIFLE".... These .429s and .452s are going to be incredible in the little 44 Mag and 444 Rifles, and 45 Colt M94s!

.452s are coming at some point so when I get those we will go to it. I have a good bit of data on 45 Colt in handgun and rifle......

Michael

Thank you Michael,

I look foward to the future testing and learning.