quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Lab coat or western duster, works great either way!

You got your Cowboy Action Shooting persona, kit and kaboodle, well done there, "Doc M," except for the black sneakers, need some black cowboy boots.

HEH HEH.... Yeah, no Cowboy Boots, hurt my feet! LOL.....

I love those lab coats, thank you so much AGAIN.... I think I am going to take them and have the buffalo put on them too!!!!!!

Michael

That is one of the two bullets that I am considering for my 'all around' .510" bullet.

I was thinking of running it at 2900fps to 2950fps in the "Nyati." It should get an eland's attention.

Incidentally, the BC calculates out as .26. It's a shame that a little more streamlining isn't/wasn't possible with that bullet. That was probably caused by keeping the 13 degree nose, something that may be useful for solids but that is irrelevant for expanding bullets. Maybe a .30+ version BC will come out in the near future. The GSC 450gn HV in .510" has a .33 BC.

416Tanzan-
The BC is a function of the low weight, and the fact that you only have a relatively short distance to go from .510 to the end of the tip. From .510 down to ~.050" in less than .750"... does not give a lot of options for long, sleek ogive. Add a 100 grains to the bullet, and now you can do more with the full-bore to tip profile. Problem still is though, with only .750 projection allowed from case, there is only so much that can be done, and ensure the projection length will allow it to fit in the magazine. Perhaps a 350 tipped bullet could be made to have a longer sleek ogive, but then the full bore base/bottom of the bullet, would be so very short, and the longer projection would not allow it to feed through a magazine. Keeping in mind that a 350-gr .510 has a pretty low SD (in comparison to a "normal" 570 grain .510 bullet).

Across the board, caliber-wise, it's hard to get higher BCs with very low SD bullets- it just does not go hand-in-hand. Example- A Speer .308/130 for the .30-30 has a similar SD as a .510/350. The Speer looks pretty sleek, has a relatively small meplat to be safe in a tubular magazine, but its BC is "only" .248. Just my thoughts...

Thank You MICHAEL458,Ilike reading your practical posts.I have hand loaded .338Lapua;.416 Rigby;.470NE and .500 Jeffery and I have come to a selection of certain bullets for the .416 Rigby upwards.I have done this after chronographing,field recovery,range observation etc.I will share my findings with you and who ever else this may interest.Mind you,I do Elephant and Forest Buffalo control work in the dense forests of West Africa without any PH back up.For my .416 Rigby,I rely on Barnes Banded Solids 400 grain loaded to 2390 fps and Woodleigh Soft Point 410 grain loaded to 2385 fps.I find the ogive of Swift A frame,Barnes X's to be a tad prone to deviating from twigs etc in the real African bush and most shots are never perfect in African situations.Except for the .500 Jeffery 570 grain Barnes Banded bullet at 2295 fps MV nothing I have tried outpenetrates the .416 Rigby BBS 400grain loaded to MV 2390fps when working amongst Elephant and on chest/heart shots,the bands set up a shockwave that "pulverizes" the soft tissues for a diameter of 6 to 10 inches as it whistles through the chest cavity even with my 18 inch Custom .416 Rigby "African Carbine".For the .500 Jeffery and .416 Rigby,I use only BBS and Woodleigh Soft Point bullets in the field at the respective velocities mentioned above.I have actually experienced Swift A frame and Barnes X's deviate and miss game after coming into contact with twigs and thick grass.The .470 NE is a different matter entirely.I noticed that the long Barnes Banded Solid alloy bullet needs a good MV of about 2200 fps to stabilize quickly and penetrate in a straight line consistently,especially when you may be forced to take a close frontal brain shot at 25 yards or less.At a MV of 1850 fps and less which is what I chronographed on some expensive custom loads I bought yrs ago,that failed to penetrate on a frontal brain shot at 25 yards,I have come to rely solely on Woodleigh 500 grain Solids and Woodleigh 500 grain Soft Point bullets carefully hand loaded to 2150 fps,the soft points usually need about 1/2 a grain more powder than the solids to get the same 2150 fps velocity.Beware of "Custom" bullets for Double Rifle NE Rifles,in my experience ,they all chronograph at less that the "advertised MV".My dictum is:Why take a chance that can cost you your life,or that of a fellow hunter,a tracker or a porter..?.Barnes X's;Swift A Frames are excellent bullets,but in the African Bush where there is no predicting the condition or visibility or how clear the path from muzzle to your aimed point of impact,its not worth it to take a chance,with a bullet whose "Ogive" can spell the start of real trouble with a capital "T".I lost a Great Hunter friend last year to careless shooting of a 1st shot...from an American know it all client at a Cape Buffalo.All the tears,crying and sorrow will not replace this avoidable death.Thank you for sharing your wonderful set up and experience with me.I only hope others will learn from people like you before they pack their bags Guns and Bullets and set off to Africa.

Thanks Babaode. The entire purpose of the thread was, and is, for all of us to learn from before we pack our bags and head out on our respective adventures.... I know I have learned a lot over the last few years, and hope to continue that process.

Some time back I started a stick/brush test, one that I could control here in the lab. After a decent study of .474 caliber, it was decided that in truth, brush is BAD, regardless. Some bullets did very well, two that came out on top were the BBW#13 Solids and the North Fork Solids, veering very little off course. Round nose solids were not so good, most softs or expanding did not do very well, and the BBW#13 NonCon DOES NOT LIKE BRUSH OR STICKS at all. I discontinued the study into and with other calibers/cartridges, as the results would have been the same, and the conclusion... The Same.... Don't Shoot Through Brush. And, that all bullets can go off course if you do, intentionally or by accident, brush is BAD.....

Thanks again......
Michael

Michael:

Need a favor. Please let me know when you are going to barrel strain tests again. I'll pick up some Woodleigh Hydros in the right caliber and send you. I am curious how they do.

Had a very good visit with Dan from CEB, today at the NRA show.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Need a favor. Please let me know when you are going to barrel strain tests again. I'll pick up some Woodleigh Hydros in the right caliber and send you. I am curious how they do.

Dave

I did the hydros in .458.... That data can be downloaded here.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rel-Strain-Test.html


And also with .474 caliber here.......

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Double-Rifles.html



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Had a very good visit with Dan from CEB, today at the NRA show.

Keith

Keith

Excellent....... How is the show overall???? Good stuff, I know...

Michael

Micheal, as usual, very big. I did not see everything, but made a list of the booths that I want to visit. CEB was at the top and the fist place I stopped. It was also pretty crowded for a Friday morning.

Keith

How is the show? See any of the pistol bullets?

Sorry Boomie, no pistol bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Need a favor. Please let me know when you are going to barrel strain tests again. I'll pick up some Woodleigh Hydros in the right caliber and send you. I am curious how they do.

Dave

I did the hydros in .458.... That data can be downloaded here.....

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rel-Strain-Test.html


And also with .474 caliber here.......

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Double-Rifles.html



Michael

Found it Michael. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
How is the show? See any of the pistol bullets?

I spoke with Dan before the show he is catching up on some orders and the next run of the .429 bullets will be in a couple weeks. We made some adjustments to the original and should fix the previous problems. The .452 will follow shortly after.
I will keep everyone posted

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
How is the show? See any of the pistol bullets?

I spoke with Dan before the show he is catching up on some orders and the next run of the .429 bullets will be in a couple weeks. We made some adjustments to the original and should fix the previous problems. The .452 will follow shortly after.
I will keep everyone posted

And I spoke with Dan at the show......nice fella.

It has been a little slow on our terminal thread lately. Not a real surprise as we have tested everything worthy of testing, we have developed new bullets damn near to the point there is not much of a place to go from here, at least not that I can ponder up!

We have a few things coming up, one in which the handgun boys will be testing and posting some of the new handgun bullets, as recently mentioned. I am looking forward to some of the new .451s and .452s for some of my handgun cartridge rifles....... While the handgun boys test the handguns, I will put some of those bullets in the little 45 Colt Rifles, and even 45 acp as well.....

I am sure there will be some big bore videos in the near future with the ballistic gel too. I think Dan and the boys have to figure out how to get a big enough block... LOL.......

Another thing that will come soon, is we have the North Fork crew in Namibia right now, they should be returning soon. Of course they will be shooting North Forks.... and mostly plains game, and rat calibers. But we should get some good bullet reports on that adventure.

So there are some things coming up that will catch our interests.

Me? I have just been trying to get things together for our upcoming trip to South Africa and then on to Zimbawe. As many know already I am taking one of my 50 B&M Alaskans out for my first go in the field with it. I have pretty big plans for it, buffalo, hippo, and any plains game that stands still long enough for me to hit it! Bullet Choice? .500 caliber 365 gr #13 NonCon, followed closely by 405 #13 Solids.

I will also be taking a 18 inch 458 B&M, and I want to see how those new 250 gr #13 Tipped NonCons do on various critters, launching at over 2900 fps. I think a very effective plains game bullet, we will find out. Hopefully I can get the bigger bullets close to POI too.

I think we will have a lot of guys in the field this year that hopefully will report their successes with various different bullets as well............

Bullet Reports from the field welcomed...................................

Michael

I have some ideas

Here is one of my thoughts that could use some testing. With the Woodleighs Hydro bullets be stable in a smooth bore? Does the shape make the bullet stable or does it need twist and what is the minimum twist for nominal weights. I see they are working on a steel cap version too.

http://www.woodleighbullets.co...tatically-stabilised

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have some ideas

I had some ideas too, but she slapped me for them.

Hey, yeh I have an idea.

Now that we have this fantastic projectile; the bbw #13 non-con,
the most reliably consistent buffalo killing projectile thats ever been available, we should all be rushing out and booking those buffalo hunts and hunting as many buffalo as possible to utilise this wonderful progress and enhancement to current bullet techinology and perfermance

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Hey, yeh I have an idea.

Now that we have this fantastic projectile; the bbw #13 non-con,
the most reliably consistent buffalo killing projectile thats ever been available, we should all be rushing out and booking those buffalo hunts and hunting as many buffalo as possible to utilise this wonderful progress and enhancement to current bullet techinology and perfermance

And who do you suggest we book with??

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Just as a bit of a reminder, the same 350 gr #13 HP fired in a 510 Wells at over 3000 fps.





The impact trauma was MASSIVE to say the least.......

While I think the bullet would do fine on buffalo at 51 Alaskan Velocities, at 510 Wells velocity
this will turn buffalo inside out, skin'em for you, and make a few lbs of burger in the process!!!!

LOL...............

Michael

Ok I'm converted What's scary is that is still a mild load for the Wells case.I'd love a bullet like that in my 530/460 which sits between the 510 wells and 550magnum in power but have it running the full 9000ftlbs the cartridge can do. So either 3300+ with 350 or even better 3000 with a heavier 450gn maybe to get the BC up a bit. Any guesses what a 450gn would have BC wise? Or is there another shape or type of CEB that can get there better?

Karl

That is absolutely correct, I only went so far in the 510 Wells, just merely to test. Rifle is too big for me to mess with in the field, so I take little interest in max all out loads....

Ross tinkered with this bullet recently in his .510 whatever, shot a bear with it, on video, check that out, I think he was running 3300 or so with it.

The penetration that the base gave is well into buffalo territory as well.

BC on a .510 450?? Not real sure, currently there is a 475 .510 #13 HP... I have not explored it in the 510 Wells. However, that 475 has a long nose profile, would not fit standard magazines with tip installed. Of course, one could load first round up with a tip installed. I watched this bullet knock the hell out of big Aussie bulls last fall at a mere 2150 fps, I can't imagine what it would do to a big bull at 2500++.......... It would be drop to the shot I feel rather confident... Even at 2150 nothing I saw went more than 5-10 yards max if that much.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
Hey, yeh I have an idea.

Now that we have this fantastic projectile; the bbw #13 non-con,
the most reliably consistent buffalo killing projectile thats ever been available, we should all be rushing out and booking those buffalo hunts and hunting as many buffalo as possible to utilise this wonderful progress and enhancement to current bullet techinology and perfermance

I am doing my part.................. Pony up Boys...................

Michael

quote:

Or is there another shape or type of CEB that can get there better?

CEB is slowly working on that. They now have a category "extended range raptor."

This is what I am looking forward to. The exploding large hollow point does not need to have a 13-degree edge. That was trying to preserve an idea of having reversible bullets. I would much rather have a well-designed ogive on the hollow point to give us explosive terminal ballistics combined with a higher BC and flat-shooting, wind-resisting external ballistics.

For a solid I can buy and load a solid. After all, in the field one cannot just flip the bullet head around. One must choose either Hollow point or solid at the time that one loads the cartridge. The hollow points can certainly have better BC's than the solids or the 13*degree hollow point + tip.

quote:

not need to have a 13-degree edge. That was trying to preserve an idea of having reversible bullets.

That is NOT CORRECT Tanz.........

From the first BBW#13 NonCOn HP... They ARE the Solid #13, just with a HP Cavity. Designed specifically to be the SAME BULLET for serious Dangerous Game, and for the exact same POI as the solid.

It was WAY LATER that the ESP Raptor came to being, double ended #13.

You boys that think you must have that BC and do anything you wish and design and do as you wish, but the BBW#13 NoNCon Dangerous Game bullet is here to stay, and is what everything else thereafter will be measured to. It is a match to the #13 Solid, both designed for Dangerous Game at Dangerous Game ranges, where 50 yards is TOO LONG AND TOO FAR.......

Want some big bore rat bullets, then do something else................ Personally I am very well pleased with the flat base #13s designed for the lever guns, add a tip, seat deep and use them in the magazine as is. At any reasonable hunting range they will do the job.... For the 400 500, 1000 yards, yep, you need to do something else...........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Just as a bit of a reminder, the same 350 gr #13 HP fired in a 510 Wells at over 3000 fps.





The impact trauma was MASSIVE to say the least.......

While I think the bullet would do fine on buffalo at 51 Alaskan Velocities, at 510 Wells velocity
this will turn buffalo inside out, skin'em for you, and make a few lbs of burger in the process!!!!

LOL...............

Michael

Ok I'm converted What's scary is that is still a mild load for the Wells case.I'd love a bullet like that in my 530/460 which sits between the 510 wells and 550magnum in power but have it running the full 9000ftlbs the cartridge can do. So either 3300+ with 350 or even better 3000 with a heavier 450gn maybe to get the BC up a bit. Any guesses what a 450gn would have BC wise? Or is there another shape or type of CEB that can get there better?

By the way, I ordered this particular bullet, or designed it, which is easy, just give it a nose profile to work through the lever guns as well as seat deep and use a tip for the magazine bolt guns......

I wanted this bullet to fill more duties than simply BC.... Double Duty in the lever guns is 51 Alaskan, and all .510 bolts, or singles using the tip.

Very much the same as I did for many of my own .500s both bolt, single, and lever guns........

Michael

Thank you Michael, I stand corrected on the history and first being designed to match a solid.

Nevertheless, when designing a longer-range tipped non-con, there is no necessity to keep the #13*degree nose. I'm thinking that decent .416" to .510" non-cons could be designed with a BC around .350-.400, rather than .20-.26.
I could be wrong, I don't have the nice bullet design software packages. Maybe the plastic tips that would fit inside a magazine make the overall bullet so light that a typical hunting BC is impossible. If so, then we live with it. I do remember the initial excitement when it was thought that plastic tips would be able to double and triple the BC of a hollow point.

I still want my buffalo bullets to handle eland (a truly noble animal) over 300 yards across an opening with a slight breeze.

Michael; Very excited to hear about the .452 diameter bullets. In Sept. 2011 I corresponded with Dan at CEB to aquire some .452 solids with double rifle pressure reduction features for my 454 Casull model 92 rifle. He quoted me a custom run price which I could not afford and stated he had no intention to introduce a 452 diameter bullet. Does your testing program include a solid with a short enough nose to crimp length to work in the Casull 454 cylinder? If so what weight? I believe the Rossi/Legacy Sports/Taurus/Puma (whatever they are calling themselves today) Win 92 knockoff a better platform for rifle testing than a 45 Colt Win 94 due to the verticle logging lugs on the 92.

Hi Bob

Yeah, I am looking forward to the .452s as well, and I have the same exact thoughts, have several lever guns in 45 Colt. They are still on the slates. I doubt seriously I will be able to have any time to work on any before I leave on June 27th however. We have talked about solids, they have to be copper to comply with current regulations as I understand, but that is of zero consequence, and probably better for this application as its roughly 5% heavier than brass anyway.

Right now I really don't have any particulars on weights, crimping lengths, bands, nose projection, nothing..... I think Ken and Dan are going to be looking at those things soon. I just have not had time to put any effort or thought into the process yet, and have been leaving it to Dan and Ken.... But you can bet they will or I will eventually come up with what we need, as our thoughts are the same.........

These will be excellent in our little rifles................

Michael

Thanks for the input Michael and also your post 416Tanzan, I am contacting Dan about it.

quote:

I still want my buffalo bullets to handle eland (a truly noble animal) over 300 yards across an opening with a slight breeze.

The simple fact is that exterior ballistics are practically interwined with terminal ballistics. After all, the bullet can only do its work if it arrives on target. For practical hunting, that means keeping winddrift in a 10mph breeze under 9" at 300 yards. If 10mph-winddrift gets to be over 12" at that distance, then someone needs to look for other bullet or cartridge combinations. We need to find some non-cons with a BC over .350 in lighter, big bore bullets.

At the moment, the best bullet that I can find for .510" is a 450grain GSC HV. Its .328 BC gives 11.8" winddrift at 300 yards and 2600mph muzzle. In .416" we have a 350 grain TTSX whose .444BC gives 6.6" 10mph-winddrift at 300 yards and 2800fps muzzle.

Sorry Guys Been a been a bit busy,

I spoke to Dan this week and they are doing some testing with a few different designs, and I should have the re design .429 bullets for testing in the beginning part of June. Also they will be getting pressure testing done with a few designs.

Dan is still playing with the ideas of bands, though as I have stated they are not practical for a pistol bullet,since it lowers pressures too much for practical powders,and will not work as caliber goes up, but again its JMHO, and from what I saw with the first design, along with others input from past testing.
The new design will have dual crimp grooves, and we will be testing with no bands, I am not sure, but hoping the shank length is slightly longer to bump the weight up.

Dan has told me he cut a couple solids but wants to refine the Hollow point version first, the existing design as a solid added about 40 grains, Still a little light but we still have allot of testing ahead of us and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

The best testing is about to come there will be some live animal testing in the near future of the porcine species, I will make sure I make my self available to be there and get some great photos so it will all be documented on this thread.

I know the discussion has been somewhat limited on this topic, but chime in, and we can go into more detail, but lets remember pistols are different animal, weight, bore resistance are necessary things!

Seasons.....

I don't see how eliminating the bands is going to help you handgunners, and I am not sure what you are after? Without the bands, you will get an increase in pressures, but I don't think you will increase your velocity..... It works absolutely opposite in every test I have run here, bands, less pressure, more velocity, this holds up across the board in cartridge, caliber, and rifle used? I don't see the fundamental difference between handgun cartridges and rifle cartridges in this area.

And light for caliber? Yes, of course, as it is across the board in all rifle calibers from 223-.620, but the "Design" over comes SD, every single time, regardless of anything else..... Remember the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration............???? SD comes in "Dead Last" with 7 factors coming and being of more importance than SD.... Nose profile, Meplat Size being #1 and #2...... Of 8....... Forget "Light For Caliber" until properly tested for terminal performance..............

When we get to .452 we will undertake a full and complete Terminal Study here as well........ I don't own anything in .429..... I do have one old Ruger Stainless Redhawk profusely engraved that I picked up at a gun show 20 yrs ago, but never shot it, and that is it for that caliber....

Not to argue as I am not a handgunner, not hunting handguns anyway, but I don't think that handgun calibers/cartridges will be any different than the same basic concepts we have discovered here with rifles... I might be wrong, and if so, that is fine, I have been wrong many times before, but like the boys from Missouri... Someone is going to have to prove it to me first..... HEH HEH.........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

And light for caliber? Yes, of course, as it is across the board in all rifle calibers from 223-.620, but the "Design" over comes SD, every single time, regardless of anything else..... Remember the 8 Factors of Solid Penetration............???? SD comes in "Dead Last" with 7 factors coming and being of more importance than SD.... Nose profile, Meplat Size being #1 and #2...... Of 8....... Forget "Light For Caliber" until properly tested for terminal performance..............


Michael

Michael, there is light for caliber and there is too damn light for caliber as is the case IMHO of the 150 and 200 grain bullets. I think a lead core is in order. We don't have the velocity potential so momentum is our friend......

quote:

Michael, there is light for caliber and there is too damn light for caliber as is the case IMHO of the 150 and 200 grain bullets. I think a lead core is in order. We don't have the velocity potential so momentum is our friend......

Bullet Technology may very well not be suitable for handguns!

There is only one way to find out.

Michael

Michael,

Your not being combative at all and I am glad you brought this up, With the rifles by decreasing the pressure you are burning the powder in a greater distance, and in the rifles that distance does not matter since it is a sealed for lack of better terms system, which I am not telling you anything you don't already know.

With revolvers especially as we go up in caliber the powder needs to burn in a smaller window of time and distance so we need the bore resistance to increase pressures to allow us to use powders that will give us the greatest velocity. If we continue down this path of bands and fast burning shotgun powders it will not be feasible to work in the larger calibers .454, .475 .500 and .510.

If you don't have the weight you need bearing surface to build pressure to get the greatest amount of velocity, Its a balancing act of weight vs length because of limited case length. If we take a look at the "Punch" Bullets which are a brass bullet filled with a lead core, they do in fact have driving bands though the weight is at a point where everything balances out, and for pistol hunters who need the most penetration possible its the only option as of right now, but most will admit it has a pretty piss poor metplat.


As Whit state we need the weight to carry momentum since we do not achieve the velocities rifles do, I am optimistic in hopes of a good outcome but more testing needs to be done though the goal should be to create something which stands above the rest.

quote:

416Tanzan

I have seen you use RE 17, I use RE 22 do you think RE 17 is better than the RE22 for the 350 grain bullets.

Kev,

I assume that you are talking about a 416Rigby?

If you use Rel 22 with 350 grain bullets you may need to stuff in as much as you can just to get 2600-2700 fps. I don't know how bulky R22 is. If you want to use the capacity for more velocity, then a faster powder like R17 will give you 2800fps and more.

We happen to use 102.5 grains of R17, but at that amount of powder you are strongly advised to back off several grains (96-98) and work up or beyond. Different batches of powder, different barrels, and different batches of bullets all have their effect. We've shot our Rigbys in broiling noon-day sun and have pushed them over 2900 without sticky bolt or flat primer, so at least 2825fps is 'safe' in our rifles.

If you are talking about 416Ruger/Rem/AccR then you will definitely need something faster than R22. If "5000" (your handle) is the foot-pounds that you are aiming for (2540 fps), R22 might work in the Rigby, but you might need R15 or H4895 in the smaller cases.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Michael, there is light for caliber and there is too damn light for caliber as is the case IMHO of the 150 and 200 grain bullets. I think a lead core is in order. We don't have the velocity potential so momentum is our friend......

Bullet Technology may very well not be suitable for handguns!

There is only one way to find out.

Michael

Bullet technology gave us large meplats that have finally been co-opted by the rifle hunters! Big Grin Seriously, though, I think they need a little more weight and it will be a game changer.