The hat doth not maketh the MAN !

Wear any hat you like, the freedom of choice is all yours.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
It isn't a multi species hunt, just basically all the mixed waterbuffalo I can shoot. I'm taking my old standby A-Frame load as well, so if the CEBs are going to work better it won't take long to find out.

Dog.... Yeah, to keep it simple, use the 420s...... I believe you will be able to tell the difference in animal reactions to taking the hits between this and the Swift, or any conventional. Swift is a great bullet, I used them for many years on many critters....... You will not get a lot of time to dig around inside on these sort of hunts, but do not make a mistake of looking at a caliber in, caliber out, hole, and making assumptions from that.... Ya gotta look inside to see the destruction.

A pet peeve of mine, lots of guys look outside, see caliber in, caliber out, especially on thicker skinned animals, and make assumptions based on that.....

M

I've got the Reloading International wheels in motion for a pile of 420 grain Safari Raptors and some 275 grain .375s for recoil relief,cows, science and cane toads.

Where improvements over the A-frames with the .458 might be a little academic; the .375 can use some more oomph. I'll take anything I can get in that area.

I make buffalo performance assessments based on visual indicators of hits, speed to ground and distance travelled. For the culling, the more visible reassurance of a good hit I see the faster I can move to the next animal. Admittedly, most of my culling hasn't been for buffalo but some of it has.

Dog.....

Excellent, I think you are on the right track........

quote:

the .375 can use some more oomph. I'll take anything I can get in that area.

Ain't that the truth! But make no mistake, while .375 might be devastating on rats and such, no matter what bullet you put in it, buffalo are just not impressed. I don't believe you can turn a .375 into a .458 or larger even with the best of bullets.......... Do not be disappointed when buffalo take off running when hit with .375 anything..........


Back from DSC.... Wow, what a great time. Great to see many of our guys there, and spend time with them. Our kids love DSC, they have as much fun as Dad........

I met a fellow that stopped by the booth. Name is Ashley... I am looking hard for his card, but have misplaced it currently. Ashley now owns Garrett Ammo. Also known for the Ashley Ghost Ring sights, sold out to XS as well now. Ashley and I somehow got to talking about bullets, of course. In the beginning it looked like we might have some disagreements concerning use of solids, and the finer points of Terminal Penetration of solids, or one might say the "8 Factors of Solid Penetration"...... As our conversation continued, Ashley found that he agreed with me on each and every point, right down the line. When I showed him the mighty BBW#13 Solid, and the new North Fork Solid, he nearly fell over backwards! Ashley casts a lot of bullets for his line of ammo, especially for the handguns. He took off somewhere after our talk, and soon brought back a sample of his cast bullet design. Guess What? Put next to a BBW#13 and North Fork, the nose angle, profile, and meplat size looked IDENTICAL........ He is not 100% sure of the nose angles, but thinks they are between 12-13 degrees on his cast bullet! I introduced Ashley to Dan at CEB, and I think Ashley is getting some of the new handgun bullets to take a look at, I don't think he is going to be disappointed.........

The kids and some of the guys have been laughing at an incident I incited at the Federal Premium Ammo booth on Sunday I believe. They were right across from North Fork, in which we spent a lot of time with the North Fork boys, John and Franz. Both being good friends. Of course John, Momma and I would go for smokes and drinks throughout the day, so if we left, we always checked with John to see if he was busy or not. I had walked by the Federal booth several times, paid them little attention, but Sunday I decided to just go and tell them something as we checked to see if John wanted a smoke. He was busy, so I stopped in to chat with the two Federal chaps. I walked up, told them this "You know boys, your ammo is not worth a sh*t unless you put some decent bullets in it!" They don't know me from Adam, so the younger fellow on my left sorta sit up, the older one on the right did this according to Momma, which was standing beside me....

HEH....... Well, you know, I am not really too shy, so they asked what bullets, and of course I said North Fork and Cutting Edge. So I continued the conversation concerning solids. I asked each of them point blank to name some of the "8 Factors of Solid Penetration", if they could name any of them. Lots of hemming, hawing and chewing the cud, the younger one came out with shape of the nose.. Yes, Nose Profile, that is one, now how about another. More hemming, chewing cud, looking around for answers, finally "velocity", yes, that is yet another one, then SD.. Yes, but that is dead last. Anymore? No, they could not come up with anymore, nor could they explain much about velocity or nose profile. Now I am pretty sure they thought I was full of Sh*t right up to my eyeballs at this point, but I continued starting with meplat size and going through each and every factor in complete detail all the way. Momma said sometime during the meplat size explanation they were all ears and paying close attention, and had already started asking good and proper questions, which I had the answers to. About 45 minutes or so later they were asking what they could do to improve this or that. Showed me a picture of some little solid in the magazine, I asked show me the bullet, picture is too small to see, they did not have one, nor any ammo to show!!!! I asked how in the hell are you going to sell any ammo if you don't have any? They only had one book between them as well! Federal had sent these two boys to the show, no ammo, no bullets, not even any books or brochures according to them! Poor Chaps!

Funny thing, reminded me of shootacow, sh*thispants, or whatever else one decides to call our boy shoot away, they asked about the woodleigh hydro. I told them its a good bullet, but limited penetration solid, and details about it. We talked about the round cap they have, and if they had tested that. I had concerns about the cap not busting off on impact, and making the bullet go squirrely like a RN. They said they had tested it thoroughly with a "HAMMER" test...............

Yep, they tested it by beating it with a HAMMER.................... Sound Familiar? Honest to god I thought I would fall over laughing........... I did my best to compose myself.............. It was difficult................

In the end they turned out to be pretty good chaps, asking good questions, thanking me for stopping by, and for my thoughts. I am not sure exactly what they really thought, but at least they were polite. So happens that they came in for breakfast at the airport, same place that we were in Monday morning leaving for home. Walked by and thanked me again for the advice....... So who knows for sure, probably thought I was some sort of nut case I imagine. Matthew my oldest somehow found out about it, and was laughing, saying "Only Dad would stop by Federal and tell them their ammo was sh*t!"............ Well, what can I say?




Michael

Michael, glad you had a great time @ DSC. Sounds like you had lots of good times and some fun to boot.

I hope to make it there next year.

Keith

I'd love to have seen the look on their faces when you informed them that 'their DG cartridges weren't worth a shot'. Had to be priceless...

Guess we'll see in 2014 if any of your information rubbed off...

quote:

Do not be disappointed when buffalo take off running when hit with .375 anything..........

That's actually about what I expect to happen. Of the 9 that I've shot with the .375 and A-frames it took a spine or head hit to reliably anchor one. The rest typically would either go all rodeo and/or line out for the horizon. The .458 will usually knock the buck right out of them, and distances travelled were one half or less as far.

If the CEBs improve either I'll take it. There are a few other things I plan on trying as well, if not on this trip on the next.

Wish I could have been a fly on the wall at the Federal booth, buzzing around that aromatic ammo, oh, I forgot, no ammo there,
never mind.
The report of the "shootaway sledgehammer bullet test" by Federal of the plastic-capped Woodleigh Hydro is hilarious!
After composing yourself, did you discuss the science of this method, or did you just let it go?

Things were hopping at the B&M Booth every time I went by there from Thursday to Sunday.
Doc M using his ideas to sell other peoples' stuff was an amazing thing to behold.
He took time out to allow RIP and Mrs. RIP to pose there for a hob-nobbing-with-the-stars celebrity picture from DSC.
Matthew took the picture Sunday as things were winding down. Mark, Mercedes, and Mrs. "Jaun" M also added celebrity to the shot.
It was nice meeting the family, also Paul Truccolo, Chris McCarthy, and L. David Keith, and their better halves, and a bunch more folks.
Thanks for the great time.

Nice photo...

I like the big Swift bag in the foreground.

Dog...... I think you know the story as good as anyone and understand.......... I think you will be pleased with the NonCon performance..... Keep us posted on that...............


RIP..........

I can't tell you what a pleasure it was to spend time with both yourself and Mrs. RIP...... I do hope that both of you make a plan for DSC 2015.

As for the Federal boys, I did not discuss their test methods with them, I already had them backed in the corner enough, no need to rub it in too much I reckon...... I am still amazed at how little some of these people actually understand and know. Hell, its their job to know, these were not just "Sales" guys, these were engineer/design types that are supposed to know these things!!!!!!!

Ashley from Garrett Ammo was very knowledgable, and in sync with bullet tech to a point. First one of these types I have run into that knew anything at all.......... Still have not found his card, damn!

We all had such a good time, Rick (pagosawingnut) and I spent a good bit of time together, what a hoot he is, speaking of ole Hoot, Hoot Murray that is, got to visit with Hoot and his lovely bride some too, as always a pleasure, Hoot booked a hunt with Karl, which was great. And of course, what a time we always have every year with Karl and Walter. Walter dropped by for a short visit before DSC as well. Did get to visit just a minute with our pal Todd Williams a couple of times, but did not get to spend enough time with Todd as we would have liked. Of course we had Sam, Mike Sager, Wes from Accurate Innovations with us and really enjoyed our time spent with these chaps! We of course always make time to visit with Retriever, he is just as good as it gets! Paul Truccolo and his wife spent a few days with us before DSC, and we will miss both of them until next year for sure. It was a surprise to see Chris the Kiwi.... He is such a fine young chap, we spent time with Chris in Australia on our first buff shoot with Paul in 2009. We must make a plan to get back to New Zealand and do some shooting with Chris, but damn, he likes to rough it and climb too much! Maybe talk him into some flat land shooting of some sort... HEH.....

We would be totally lost without our pal Sean, he not only stores the B&M booth stuff, but delivers it as well on Wednesday setup. Hell, he has just become part of the family now, thank you Sean............ Of course right along with Sean is everyones nightmare, Hooker! HEH HEH............ You know... The PIG MAN..... LOL........... Hooker dropped off a nice little surprise, we did not get to take advantage of until after the show shut down on Sunday, of which I managed to down a few swallows before officially turning over the rest to Sean........

Of course Max and his crew visited often, I even caught Max doing some serious napping one day, I missed a great photo opportunity with that.......... I thought one time he might fall forward out of the chair HEH HEH........

Right off the bat I worked over poor Kevin Robertson, of "The Perfect Shot" fame..... Yes, I started in on his favoritism for "Heavy for Caliber" bullets, told him while I agreed with him in 2000, he needed to catch up on his bullet tech a bit, and was missing the last couple of years info. Kevin is a good sort, and we did manage to come to terms on some of these subjects. We plan on helping him out with his new shooting school in South Africa, getting some proper rifles to him in the near future for the new students to train with, something we touched on before he left, but did not finalize properly.....

We visited a short time with our buddy Lane Easter, Ledvm....... Not long enough, we think a lot of Lane..... In addition at the AR dinner, we met for the first time 505Ed... Seems to be a good sort as well.

Our Pal Phil 7mmnut, loaned his 458 B&M with the Myrtle Stock for the booth too. Nice stick of myrtle Phil got from Wes!

Cannot forget Biebs, he was everywhere, all the time.......... And then we did a lot of visiting with Kebco outside having a smoke from time to time, he was always there, even more than me!

Of course, how could I forget, and I WON"T, our bud MJines! Not sure if MJines pays much attention to this thread, but some of you know Mjines and I butt heads occasionally. In a week or so before DSC we were discussing, well, Mjines was discussing rather, "Incremental gains in performance, opposed to dramatic increases in Price", of bullets of course. Well, always one to look out for my fellow shooters, I was prepared for Mr. Jines to assist him, and help subsidize the increased cost of bullets, for which I see as a tremendous gain in performance, just the opposite of MJines, I think an "Incremental increase in cost, for a Tremendous gain in Performance"..... So I had a "Quarter" that I made sure Mike received, and the last day even increased that by another "Quarter" so Mike could afford at least "One Decent" bullet, either from North Fork or CEB..... Mike's a fair shot I reckon, so one bullet should do what he needs....
On this second run by the B&M Booth, I noticed Mike's hand was held out, maybe in hopes of one more quarter?

Now, while on the subject of Mjines, some of you know he has been owing me a beer now for over a year! I can't figure out exactly how, but he somehow managed to miss that opportunity once again? So now, its going to be yet another "Thirsty" year before Mike can make good on this! Believe me, I won't be forgetting it either! Hell, with enough quarters he might be able to make good.............

What good fun....................

And of course, I spent a lot of time with the CEB Crew, and the North Fork Boys......... I do wish to say, both were busy as can be, the entire show, both booths were crowded with folks throughout the entire show. Tells me that the word is getting out about these bullets, as it should..............

If I left anything out, don't be offended, I am getting..............

We liked our B&M booth this year, far better than our first year. However, we are making a new banner for next year as well. Some changes we need to make in size, and some things I wish to add as well. Funny thing, I had lots of guys ask how much I wanted for some of my rifles, my reply, "These are MY RIFLES, Not for Sale, you have to get your OWN damn RIFLES!"

I see 7 threads below having something to do with 375 caliber............



I just don't get it?........................... What is the point, when so many greater things are available.........

quote:

... Mike's a fair shot I reckon, so one bullet should do what he needs.... rotflmo

Michael, MJines is a very good shot, I have seen him shoot many times, here at teh house. We have killed many DWJs (dangerous water jugs) together.

The "Band of Bubbas" Was founded here. 375 H&H was the minimum cal. & up. Those were fun times.

Keith

Spotted at DSC Federal booth: Federal Ammo Engineers (left and center) offering to "shootaway sledge hammer test"
the jaguar spear of Sasha Siemel, who strolled out of a space-time warp and walked about the floor.
That confabulation makes about as much sense for reality testing:


Surprising was that Hooker cleans up pretty good and hung out at the B&M booth too,
even though he might be carrying a blow-up Ms. Piggie love doll in the satchel over his shoulder.

quote:

Dog...... I think you know the story as good as anyone and understand.......... I think you will be pleased with the NonCon performance..... Keep us posted on that...............

Oh, you can count on it.

Hello all.

Well finally, after a protracted flight schedule involving more than two days travelling, miniture aeroplane seats, congested ailses and queues everywhere, crying babies and endless security check points my wife Dedrie and I have made it home.

I would like to take this oportunity to thank all of those that stopped by to introduce themselves as well as those that revisited to reaquaint.
Sam, Saun, Max and Brett, Wes, John, Don and at least six or seven Mikes and my apologies to those that I may have not listed !

Our annual visit to Dallas is obviously driven by our need to promote at the show but catching up with old freinds and making new ones is also very important to us and just as rewarding for us as the show itself.

Before I go I would like to extend my most sincerest gratitude to the entire McCourry family for their extreme hospitality and freindship that they extend to both my wife and myself when-ever we visit. Mere words cannot convey our gratitude. Thank-you to all the McCourry's.

Also my apologies to those of you who were waiting on any test work to be done that I may have been responsible for distracting the Doc from getting done whilst I was at the compound.

Let the shooting and testing resume, good health and good hunting for 2014 to everyone here and their families.

Cheers,

Paul.

zzzzz, hum? Ok, I'm not sleeping, just resting my eyes. Thanks to everyone who provided me a chair to sit down and rest. That accident, getting hit in the rear of my truck at 65mph while I was stopped for traffic really put a hurt on my spine, knee, and neck.
Paul, you and your wife were great.
Mike, I am going to have to come over to the east coast and haunt you for a few days. I don't know whether to bring my souped up BLR in .450 Marlin, or my .395 Max! Oh, and I finally got a smile from Mercedes.

Good to see you as well Michael. Sorry we didn't get more time together. Having the spousal unit along this time always seemed to have my day planned on where to go and what to see. We missed you at the booth several times in passing. We'll catch up more next time. Hopefully they'll allow some "pie" on the floor in years to come, eh?

quote:

Michael, MJines is a very good shot, I have seen him shoot many times, here at teh house. We have killed many DWJs (dangerous water jugs) together.

Indeed this is good news. Mike now has an extra $0.50 so that he can now purchase at least ONE CEB or North Fork, and as I suspected he is a pretty good shot, it will now only take ONE BULLET to accomplish his goal. Naturally this will be new to Mjines, as he has been using cheaper bullets, and having to take more shots to accomplish his mission. Of course this also goes against my rules, regardless of bullet cost, I like to shoot everything full of holes anyway. Maybe between all of us, we can take up a collection for Mjines so he will be able to purchase more than one bullet??????????? How about it guys, can we collect enough $$ so Mike can get at least a box of bullets? We will need an accounting however, as he might attempt to buy my beer with that money..... On second thought, forget the accounting statement......




Paul, as always we enjoyed having you and D on the compound. We did get a bit of shooting and test work done, in between "Shine Shots" that is........ LOL...........


Max.... Wake up! Max........zzzzzzzz...... Hey, Max............................ LOL............ When I rest my eyes, I keep at least one of them open............

Todd.... Yep, gotta spend a bit more time together next year...... Sorry I missed you at the booth as well..... Probably out with John North Fork having a smoke and drink.............. Man, those folks at DSC put the scare in me this year on the pie...... Maybe next year, bring pie, go over to the bar and sip? Hmmmmmmm???????? Sign said at the bar, NO ALCOHOL BEYOND THIS POINT, or something such, I told the GUARD each time, that I was taking it out, nothing he could do about it! Of course, it was in my belly at the time.........

HEH.............

Hi Michael!
It was good to see you at DSC too! Wish I had more time to dedicate to DSC this year...but it wasn't meant to be!

I always tell everyone Michael has taught me more about reloading than any one source ever.

to the "Myth Buster" of ballistics!

As usual will keep in touch and see ya next year!

Lane

Something of interest the boys stumbled on at DSC in the January/February issue of African Outfitter.

I did not know this, but Chris Bekker had an article in this issue concerning;

Mono-Metal Bullets and Barrel Life

In which he addresses barrel erosion, and a few other things, but the interesting part starts on the 3rd page of this article talking about Machinability ratings of brass vs copper, and different sorts of mixed metals. As the article continues, it begins to touch on pressures, "Barrel Strains", double rifles, and what is easy and not easy on barrels..... This is where it starts to
catch my interests.......

Some of the quotes in the article......

quote:

How did Woodleigh relieve pressure in their FMJ Solid????

"As Steel Jacketed FMJs are bound to generate more pressure than soft-nose bullets for any given load, Woodleigh made their FMJs .0005-.001 under nominal diameter to reduce engraving forces and pressure during firing........"

Something we touched on when doing Barrel Strains, and pressures for the doubles........

quote:

Tests Done by Barnes
Barnes conducted tests to confirm that their mono-metal Banded Solids do in fact yield lower pressures than Woodleighs copper clad steel jacketed FMJ bullets, making them safe in double rifles. The material used to manufacture Barnes Banded Solids does not obturate at less than 45'000 PSI. So how can a CNC machined bullet that will not obturate create excessive pressure or damage a barrel that is even close to specs? I submit that a full metal jacket consisting of a .003 thick copper plated steel core engraving into the lands and grooves is going to be much harder on a barrel. To further reduce bearing surface and pressure, Barnes has cut a series of grooves in the shank of the solid that provides any material displaced somewhere to go. FMJ s do not have this feature. Steel on Steel is not the desired scenario for a rifle barrel.

I believe the "High Pressure with all mono-metal solids" propaganda was spread via the old "someone heard something from someone" and so on and so on.

It is interesting to note that the Barnes banded solids yields on average 4.9% lower pressure than Woodleighs FMJ. These tests conducted with a 470 Nitro 500 gr bullets with 85 grains of RL 15, Norma Brass, and Fed 215 primers. The same load with TSX is some 14.8% higher than the Barnes Banded Solid. TSX being made from Copper and having only three grooves, the solid having less bearing surface.

Barnes banded solids have been banned by BATFE. Two other bullet makers in the USA have filled that void, namely Cutting Edge
Bullets and North Fork.

And there is much more to the article as well, but as you can see, those that have followed the work that we have done right here, totally independent of anyone, we came to pretty much the same conclusions. The pressures that Chris is talking about is related to chamber pressures, it is my intention to draw his attention to the barrel strain tests we did here in the various calibers, which further back up many of his own statements............ We are very pleased here that word is reaching across continents, and being spread to the rest of the world, and perhaps to more of us than we realize................

Times are Changing fellows....... But it still will take a little time I think.........................

Nice to be in front of the line, instead of sucking hind tit!!!!!!!

Michael

-
Sorry that you guys couldn't sip wine in the booths.

Would you believe it--my local rifle range does the same thing!

And I approve in principle, even though I would enjoy sipping a cold beer on a hot summer day. We all have to make little sacrifices for the good of the sport and its reputation.

Michael.. did U ever test the 458 caliber CEB ESP Raptor in 300 grs ?
I worked up some loads today with VVN 530 powder and got 3020 fps from my 21,5" barrel in my 458 AccRel… not bad.. Just wondered how it will perform .. - also at lower velocities.. ??

All the best

Ulrik

quote:

Nice to be in front of the line, instead of sucking hind tit!!!!!!!

Michael many of us have identified you were leading the pack years ago. Unfortunately many of the so called 'experts' were sucking so hard they had their heads firmly implanted in the posture region...

I must say, it's very nice to see that your lab work is causing some to rethink their traditional thinking.

I wonder if the internet were available at the time if similar discussions would have taken place when we moved from BP to smokeless powders. And perhaps from pure lead to C&C bullet construction. We are definitely seeing this with 'modern hunting rifles' vs traditional bolt guns...

Hum... Would I be termed a modern traditionalist with my modern CNC machined bullets in my M98 Mauser auctioned rifles? Or perhaps just 'not a duffus'?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Michael.. did U ever test the 458 caliber CEB ESP Raptor in 300 grs ?
I worked up some loads today with VVN 530 powder and got 3020 fps from my 21,5" barrel in my 458 AccRel… not bad.. Just wondered how it will perform .. - also at lower velocities.. ??

All the best

Ulrik

Ulrik

Yep, sure did, on 3/16/2012 I did terminals on the .458 300 ESP Raptor at 48 yds at 2578 fps with talon tip. Hitting at 2437 fps they went to 21-22 inches... Crazy as it sounds, that is buffalo deep! In fact, with my experience driving a 250 Socom to the far side of a cow buffalo, I would actually predict that the 300 ESP Talon Tipped Raptor would most likely exit full broadside buffalo........ Backed up with a few as solids, I am pretty sure it would be rather effective at this mission.............. Solids penetrated dead straight to 40 inches according to my data............ Low velocity shear point was 1850 fps NO TIP. Add tip, might drop 100 fps or so......

Add the velocity you are getting.... Almost a no brainer I reckon..........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Nice to be in front of the line, instead of sucking hind tit!!!!!!!

Michael many of us have identified you were leading the pack years ago. Unfortunately many of the so called 'experts' were sucking so hard they had their heads firmly implanted in the posture region...

I must say, it's very nice to see that your lab work is causing some to rethink their traditional thinking.

Thanks Jim............

M

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
-
Sorry that you guys couldn't sip wine in the booths.

Would you believe it--my local rifle range does the same thing!

And I approve in principle, even though I would enjoy sipping a cold beer on a hot summer day. We all have to make little sacrifices for the good of the sport and its reputation.

Good Story for you guys.........

Some years ago, before the indoor range, a good pal of mine would do our test work outside, at my 50 yd bench. We would shoot, test, and would always be partaking of some ice cold ones........ This was common practice, and we had a "blast" doing it, good fun....... Always safe, never stupid.

Well, we both have yet another good friend of ours, very straight laced sort. I doubt he has ever had a beer in his entire life, and would never ever consider even taking a spoon of cough syrup and shooting at the same time, much less actually having a cold one and doing it. Lets say, to the extreme with this.......

So one day, myself, and my drinking pal, found out our Straight Laced buddy was coming out to do some shooting with us! So we proceeded to find every empty bottle and can we could find, and scattered the lot around the 50 yard shooting bench, awaiting his arrival! In addition, we both had an open one, and made sure that as soon as he pulled up, we were putting them down. LOL........ He got out of his truck, looked around on the ground, we asked if he wanted one? He looked at us, very seriously told us that he could not be a part of this, got back in his truck and promptly left the premises..........



We have laughed at this for several years now.................

quote:

Tests Done by Barnes


I believe the "High Pressure with all mono-metal solids" propaganda was spread via the old "someone heard something from someone" and so on and so on.

Hmmm ... seems like someone I know has stated this numerous times in the past.

Thanks Michael...

...and by the way Michael - when did you test the .375 ESP Raptor / 230 grs ?? If you ever did? Would like to see how that one performed as well.. Know you r not that fond of 375 anything...

Todd........

quote:

Hmmm ... seems like someone I know has stated this numerous times in the past.

As I read that, I was thinking of you!

With that said, the old style barnes with no bands did give very high strains as you know. I also think some of the
BS came from that, carried over to any and all monos just because.......... No real or true knowledge involved, just
hearsay and allegations.............


Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Tests Done by Barnes


I believe the "High Pressure with all mono-metal solids" propaganda was spread via the old "someone heard something from someone" and so on and so on.

Hmmm ... seems like someone I know has stated this numerous times in the past.

Todd, and all that might be interested in this article by Chris Bekker in the African Outfitter, I have uploaded it now to the B&M Website, under the main page "Articles" here;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Articles.html


Scroll down to the bottom to "Other Articles of Interest"..................

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

Will you do me that favor? Would be nice to know...
Thanks ....

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

Will you do me that favor? Would be nice to know...
Thanks ....

Found them...................

Thanks again buddy…

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Thanks again buddy…

No worries pal... Glad I can help....

quote:

I worked up some loads today with VVN 530 powder

As you may or may not know, I had a 1# of V-N530 and used a good bit doing 458 Lott and 458 Winchester loads, and it is an extremely good powder in both cartridges, and besting out some of the more commonly used powders in these cartridges in some areas of velocity/pressures......

So happens, it is looking extremely good as well in my own 500 MDM, tests underway..... I also think it might do very well in the new 500 B&M and perhaps the upcoming new 458 EX B&M as well........ I found 5 lbs yesterday, and have that on the way......

V-N530 might shape up to be one of those Super Powders in our big bores..........................

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

Will you do me that favor? Would be nice to know...
Thanks ....

Found them...................

Looks like a marginally adequate load for killing small rats / maybe large mice!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

Will you do me that favor? Would be nice to know...
Thanks ....

Found them...................

Looks like a marginally adequate load for killing small rats / maybe large mice!

Yeap, and they do a better job on them than a .366".

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Ulrik........

375.....

Yes, 230s tested excellent, not so long ago I posted this for someone, somewhere???? They were in the same category as what we discussed yesterday as I recall. Somehow, I did not record the data on them, I don't even have a 375 data sheet...... ???? I can't
imagine why? HEH......... Somewhere in my photo bucket photos if you want me to look for them..........

M

Will you do me that favor? Would be nice to know...
Thanks ....

Found them...................

Looks like a marginally adequate load for killing small rats / maybe large mice!

Yeap, and they do a better job on them than a .366".

Keith

Actually, I'd say they are about the same. But you'll never hear me touting either as "Proper" calibers for use on the big boys like buffalo or elephant; unless, possibly, one chooses to shoot his DG from sniping distance and is prepared to rely 100% on the PH to pull one's butt out of the thin butter when it all goes pear shaped!

Why .375 is included in "Big Bores" is beyond me in the first place as it's clearly a "medium". But because our host prefers using rat guns at sniping distance, he insists on including them with the big boys.

Sorry for interjecting but whenever I come to the big bore part of the forum, I'm looking for info and discussions on Big Bores. I see .375 and immediately loose interest. Both the 9.3 and .375 are best suited for plains game and other thin skinned animals ... IMO!

Todd, this was a dig at Michael's dislike of the .375 bore size in general. He "loves" his 9.3s for some reason. I guess he likes them because fewer people have them. maybe 375 is just to common.

NOTHING was said about big game hunting. Why is .375 in the AR "big bore forum", how knows. Traditionally big bores start at 450 and go up. 400 - 440 are generally large mediums.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:


Looks like a marginally adequate load for killing small rats / maybe large mice!

At best................. But even still, 416 + would be far more reliable.................

LOL.............

quote:

Actually, I'd say they are about the same. But you'll never hear me touting either as "Proper" calibers for use on the big boys like buffalo or elephant; unless, possibly, one chooses to shoot his DG from sniping distance and is prepared to rely 100% on the PH to pull one's butt out of the thin butter when it all goes pear shaped!

In 2012 I took my 9.3 B&M out for it's first go. Using 210 ESP Raptor it was very impressive on impala to even Wildebeast. I shot 3 zebra with it, they took off like hell was chasing them, and each took a nose dive, dead literally on their feet turning all sorts of flips and flops. Decent, as good as any 338 or 358 I Had ever used on the same, better actually. As an experiment I took same rifle, heavier 255 Raptors for Australian buffalo later that year. Buffalo were not impressed at all! Sure, killed a few, but I had to hammer them several times before they even took notice of those small bore pills. After only a few of these buffalo I put the 9.3 away for good. Used the then new 475 B&M, caliber made a big difference, buffalo started paying this some attention.

.366-.375 fine for rats, small mice, maybe a few other non dangerous very thin skinned game, smaller species of squirrels and such, but no place with the big boys..........




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