quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

There is a chance you can crimped the the nose of the bullet which prevented expansion, We noticed this with the the .429's in testing and have made tips which solve this problem along with a jag to match, the jags are not in production just yet.

Seasons, you might be correct on this, not sure on a muzzle stuffer.... However, I have had some extremely compressed loads, in which the cavity also folding in on itself, I could not even get a tip in the bullet! This could have an effect on terminals??

Brent brought his front stuffing thing here, but we had technical difficulties and were not able to test. Its a 50 caliber something or other, and he is using some sort of other powder, not pure black powder, and his velocity is probably close to correct.

What I know about one of these things you can put on the sharp end of a pencil, and I intend for it to stay that way, but I think I have heard others using .451-.452 in these things, and since these bullets are designed to shear at very low impacts, I think maybe these copper handgun bullets might be the ticket??? For some reason, I can't recall what, we did not consider, or ruled out the 250 Socom as well?????

Anyway.........

M

This is one instance,

Wes at 7x leather was shooting pumkins whith the raptors and used a heavy range rod to load the bullets and saw the petals didn't shear, only happen once and he relized he crimped the bullet due to a fouled bore and a havey range rod, so was this a fluke? I don't know but the conclusion he came to makes sense.

I think the the socom bullet whould be a great choice the LV shear if I recall was quite good and there should be no issues in funtion, the other option you have are the .475 bullets for the muzzleloader, almost full bore and sabots are available,

I am gonna try and get a deer on the ground after the new year with the muzzleloader as long as the deer cooperate

Seasons44,
I was using brass CEB with tips. I use a spin jag to "stuff" the bullet in. It is has a big hollow cavity so it will not deform the nose. It also allows the sabot to spin in with the rifling. I shoot a savage so I can use smokeless powder, vit n 120. I also am having difficulty getting them to fire repeatedly due to sabot not fitting tight, although that is another issue for another thread. I have not chronoed as my PACT is s piece of crap and not even close to accurate. It should be between 2000and 22200. Had a mis fire on a doe yesterday, due to above mentioned problem, so no more terminals to report.

Brent,

Maybe its a velocity issue for the brass raptors? But congrats on the two deer even though terminals were not what you expected.

What has worked for me is the harvester sabots, I don't have a savage so I was shooting them with Black MZ powder, I shot both the .429 and the .452 raptor, Both gave me exellent groups, standard jag, never seen the "spin jag" does it make a diffrence?

Wes shot his deer with a muzzloading pistol, I believe it was a CVA optima pistol with blackhorn 209 and he got some impressive groups with the .429 raptors. So maybe the combination of the bullet and sabot is what was giving you fits with accuracy.

Ken mentioned they had a deer get shot with the 452's the other day in Ohio and the blades made it to the offside ribcage at 130 ish yards, this may be "the" muzzloading bullet

I would say give the harvester sabots and the .452 raptors a try, they have a good tight fit, and CEB has tips available,

I would say give .475's a try but I haven't shot them yet hoping this week to get out, and not sure if tips are available.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
So today i finally was able to get the drop on a couple of whitetail doe with the muzzleloader. I have been wanting to try 458 CEB bullets. The bloody things are finicky. Anyway i got a 295 raptor to fly ok, not near as tight as barnes, but i also have not worked with the CEB as much. I guess it is traveling at 2000-2100 fps
So first doe was a small deer of the year. Shot about 75 yds. She was in front of brush angling away. I hot here in stomach and exited behind lung on opposite side. She ran about 50 yds where i found her still alive but not able to get up, a little blood on her nose. I was able to walk up and finish her with a knife. Couple of hours later a large doe comes by. I hit her dead broadside thru the lungs at 25 yds away. She ran away with tail down and stopped about 100 yds away, stood there and then fell over. No heart, just double lung. Not impressed at all, the barnes tmz has preformed far better. Going to give it a go again tomorrow see if I can get better results, but unless something changes drastically, these do not look like a winner in muzzleloader. I am quite surprised.

Howdy Brent-

First choice if shooting .458 in a muzzleloader would be the 258 SOCOM, as it will blow all four blades down to only 1,400

The next choice (or at least equal terminal performance-wise) would be our .45-240 HG Raptor, which blows its four blades down to below 900 fps. We just ran some Raptor Tips for the .45 HGs, and they will greatly increase the BC, and the distance at which the blades will blow (though that they work down below 900 fps, that is pretty darn FAR anyway).

Keeping in mind you need at lease 1,700 fps for a RIFLE .458 Raptor to blow, a better choice would be the 250... and tip that.

I would not recommend the 295 for deer, as without a tip it's going less than 1,700 fps not too far out... especially if only launched at 2,000 fps. It works great on larger game from Michael's .458 B&M at 2,700 with tips... but only 2,000 fps without tips is a whole different story.

Yes I would expect the Barnes muzzleloader being at it's design velocity to give better terminals than the 295 rifle bullet fired at MZL speeds- that is not an apples-to-apples comparison.

Had a .45-240 HG Raptor or a .458-258 SOCOM been launched at 2,000- I am certain you would have realized excellent performance, as others have with those bullets at that speed.

Consider the issues of twist and velocity when it comes to Raptor bullets and Muzzle loaders. Muzzle Loaders twist would be too slow for most Raptors.

Here are some CEB muzzleloader prototypes I saw at the NRA Convention in St. Louis a couple of years ago, which boom stick seemed to have some knowledge of at the time:



A pointy brass tip is the expander in these stubby conical "soft point" expanding bullets for muzzleloader.

How does one use them, with a patch or in a sabot?
Yes, as boom stick says, fast-enough twist and high enough velocity are important for TERMINALS.

I don't know what the latest is on the muzz stuffers but R&D takes lots of time and time is mooo knee.
I do know that Dan wants them to be awesome before releasing them. Pistol bullets took priority in the R&D dept I believe. Maybe next year.

Mike, I realize you are not a fan of .375s for DG but I have a question for plains. I ve used a .375 on Gibbs .505 case for elk with a SMK 350gr. Caliber hole entry but 5" exit huge hole. My question is have you ever looked at penetration and what happens to the bullet? I suspect it just shatters apart but have never recovered it (3000-3270 fps)? I ve read one well known author has even used SMK on buffalo. I ve used a Gibbs 505 for buffalo and based on your test and other advice I m loading up some NF CPS 525 gr.

quote:

My question is have you ever looked at penetration and what happens to the bullet?

Yeah, I have done that a couple of times in my day.....

HEH........ Sorry, I assume you are talking about a "SMK"....??? SMK???? Sierra Match King? I have been trying to
figure out what an SMK was for some time this morning... Answer is, I have never had enough respect for a Sierra when it
comes to big game to even worry about testing one, in recent times. I have tested a few .358s, and .338s many years ago
and even at most lower velocities jacket and core separate, I can imagine bigh velocity they might go all to hell.
I think some years ago Boddington used one in 375HH on a buffalo, but I could be mistaken on this, memory not as good as it used to be.....

I think your choice of 505 and 525 CPS will do the trick, and will be good buffalo pills...... Velocity?

Michael

Michael,

Quick question for you regarding the pressure equipment.

The two typical locations where you have the pressure tabs located should relate to chamber pressure and barrel pressure. I'm wondering if a tab was located on the barrel at the position of the throat where the bullet intersects the barrel grooves would correctly identify the pressure imparted during the bullet engraving process? I'm thinking this would identify the 'bullet start pressure' for QL purposes.

Any thoughts?...

I just got the tips in for the .429 and .452 raptors! They look good will get some range time in after the New Year, the sabot is a standard crush rib, they do make a long which may be a better option with the tip.

Here is the 240 .452
[URL= ]

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Quick question for you regarding the pressure equipment.

The two typical locations where you have the pressure tabs located should relate to chamber pressure and barrel pressure. I'm wondering if a tab was located on the barrel at the position of the throat where the bullet intersects the barrel grooves would correctly identify the pressure imparted during the bullet engraving process? I'm thinking this would identify the 'bullet start pressure' for QL purposes.

Any thoughts?...

Cappy....

????? Maybe..... But that would be just forward of where the gage is now, which are always located center of the chamber..... I am not sure if there would be a tremendous amount of difference?? Or even readable?


M

Yes your memory recall is the same as mine as far as Craig trying SMKs. I ve used 525 gr TSX at 2270 fps with 144gr SL 25 in the .505 so that is what I thought I d try. Any comments on 525gr vs 600 gr NF CPS?

Seasons...
Those do look good! I tried to see if I had tips that would fit, but did not, so has to be special made, and looks great.
This will ADD quite a bit of IMPACT VELOCITY downrange, which is extremely good, normally 150 fps + at 50 yards vs with no tip.

I just got a raging good report from our own David L Keith, using the 240 .451 in muzzle loader and 3 deer, incredible damage and excellent results....... David showed a lot of blade exits, and tremendous damage done by blades only..... Pretty interesting.... I think you guys are on to something here with this....

M

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
Yes your memory recall is the same as mine as far as Craig trying SMKs. I ve used 525 gr TSX at 2270 fps with 144gr SL 25 in the .505 so that is what I thought I d try. Any comments on 525gr vs 600 gr NF CPS?

LR3...... Use the 525 and take any extra velocity you might get. You will get more penetration than you could ever need already with the 525, and any extra velocity will give you more hitting trauma up front. I see no practical gains going to the 600...... And see more advantages with the 525s.......

M

Happy New Year guys....

We are here on the compound, with Paul Truccolo and his lovely bride from Australia, I doubt seriously Paul and I will make it to
the new year before going to roost, its already after 10 pm here, and you guys already know that is WAY PAST roosting time for me
to begin with.............

Anyway, I plan on Paul and I putting in some time on the range the next few days, so we both can use all the sleep and rest we can
get, and to be honest, a little extra beauty sleep won't hurt Paul any........
Good Night, and again Happy New Year to All.............

Michael

hangovers and shooting? lol.
Have fun! Happy new year all!

Happy New Year and good hunting! Can't wait to read the reports.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Michael,

Quick question for you regarding the pressure equipment.

The two typical locations where you have the pressure tabs located should relate to chamber pressure and barrel pressure. I'm wondering if a tab was located on the barrel at the position of the throat where the bullet intersects the barrel grooves would correctly identify the pressure imparted during the bullet engraving process? I'm thinking this would identify the 'bullet start pressure' for QL purposes.

Any thoughts?...

Cappy....

????? Maybe..... But that would be just forward of where the gage is now, which are always located center of the chamber..... I am not sure if there would be a tremendous amount of difference?? Or even readable?

M

Thanks Michael that makes perfect sense.

Happy and Safe New Years Everyone!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
I just got the tips in for the .429 and .452 raptors! They look good will get some range time in after the New Year, the sabot is a standard crush rib, they do make a long which may be a better option with the tip.

Here is the 240 .452
[URL= ]

Seasons44

Now with a tip that will make a 200 yard bullet.

Went to CEB site and saw they have .452 220gr.I think with the twist in my Savage they would be a better bullet.

Is that a MMP sabot you are using ?

]

Seasons44

Now with a tip that will make a 200 yard bullet.

Went to CEB site and saw they have .452 220gr.I think with the twist in my Savage they would be a better bullet.

Is that a MMP sabot you are using ?[/QUOTE]


Coyote

I believe the bullet you are talking about is the .475 220, I have not shot the .475 yet but think it would be a good option if it will stabilize. The sabot pictured is a Harvester Sabot, they make a long which is meant for 300 grain bullets and up, may be benificial. Will get to the range this weekend if the weather holds out.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Seasons...
Those do look good! I tried to see if I had tips that would fit, but did not, so has to be special made, and looks great.
This will ADD quite a bit of IMPACT VELOCITY downrange, which is extremely good, normally 150 fps + at 50 yards vs with no tip.

I just got a raging good report from our own David L Keith, using the 240 .451 in muzzle loader and 3 deer, incredible damage and excellent results....... David showed a lot of blade exits, and tremendous damage done by blades only..... Pretty interesting.... I think you guys are on to something here with this....

M

Michael,

Ken mentioned one deer with the .452's, but 3 is great news! do you have the photos to post up? I am still waiting on the photos of the 200 grain damage, Glad these bullests are functioning so well.

BTW ,Happy New Year

Seasons......
The 3 deer was our DKeith, he sent some photos of damage done, but I don't have permission to post them.... Maybe David is lurking and will post the report himself? I will see if he can do that, he has way more details than I do of course, and might shed some light on this that the other for the muzzle stuffers.....

M

Gents,
I recently experienced first hand how the CEB .451 Raptors would perform on Whitetail deer. The results were outstanding yet over whelming. Tissue damage at short (50+ yards) and medium (120 yards) ranges were drastic to say the least. Having procured some 240 grain bullets from Dan at CEB, I discovered I needed no adjustments to my scope. I found them to be accurate at 50 and 100 yards. Tim Herald (our own) suggested I contact George Cummins to book a hunt in Kentucky as Tim had experienced good hunting with him in the past. Myself and Thornell booked a late season muzzle loading hunt (mid December) and upon arriving were advised to consider any decent buck we saw, as warm weather, rain and high winds were the forthcoming forecast for the next week. Our first evening hunt would be the last cool day. Fortunately, I was able to take an 11 point buck (130s class) on the first evening and would later take two antlerless deer, one being a huge Doe that I estimated to weigh around 150 lbs field dressed. Here are a few pics of the performance:
The only CEB bullet (less petals) I retrieved. This one passed completely through the buck but was snapped back into the wound channel by the elastic, connecting tissue. Bullet entered in the high left shoulder area, just under the spine and exited behind the right shoulder. Range was 120 yards. Powder was 100 grains of 777. Rifle: Austin Halleck .50 cal.


This one and only petal was found during the meat grinding process. My grinder did chew on the copper a bit but it was mostly intact. The other 3 exited the body. This one smashed the right shoulder blade (see pics below)


3 pics of damage by the single petal:




Similar damage was done to the other two deer. The large Doe was captured on HD video which I hope to have in time for Dallas (DSC). My field testing was performed without the ballistic inserts, which I'm sure would assist in long range muzzle loading. I'll try those next year. Good hunting, LDK

I'm dutifully working my way through this thread, and am resigned that it will be some time before I get through it.

In an effort to save time, which CEB bullet would I want to use on an Aussie buffalo cull in a .458 Win? I'm sure I can order and receive them in Canada long before I can wade through another couple hundred pages, so I may as well get started. Is there a quick "no brainer" answer?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

My question is have you ever looked at penetration and what happens to the bullet?

Yeah, I have done that a couple of times in my day.....

HEH........ Sorry, I assume you are talking about a "SMK"....??? SMK???? Sierra Match King? I have been trying to
figure out what an SMK was for some time this morning... Answer is, I have never had enough respect for a Sierra when it
comes to big game to even worry about testing one, in recent times. I have tested a few .358s, and .338s many years ago
and even at most lower velocities jacket and core separate, I can imagine bigh velocity they might go all to hell.
I think some years ago Boddington used one in 375HH on a buffalo, but I could be mistaken on this, memory not as good as it used to be.....

I think your choice of 505 and 525 CPS will do the trick, and will be good buffalo pills...... Velocity?

Michael

I have used the 300 grain SMK in the 338 lapua for a long range hunting bullet. at 220 yards they did not exit a white tail deer, 150 yards did not exit the rib cage of a bull elk on a perfect broadside shot. At 300 yards and beyond they did exit 2 deer. At 1400 yards they will exit both shoulders of a bull elk. In my experience they were good long range bullets but not one that I would trust on any type of dangerous game at normal hunting distances.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I'm dutifully working my way through this thread, and am resigned that it will be some time before I get through it.

In an effort to save time, which CEB bullet would I want to use on an Aussie buffalo cull in a .458 Win? I'm sure I can order and receive them in Canada long before I can wade through another couple hundred pages, so I may as well get started. Is there a quick "no brainer" answer?

Dogleg........

420 gr Safari Raptor..... I have used it and this is the bullet for that sort of work, and the 458 Winchester. This is the bullet I use in my 458 B&Ms, and have used it on buffalo and its great...... It is the matching bullet for the 450 #13 Solid........

There is a dealer that imports the CEBs in Canada, as I recall, call Dan or Ken and let them lend a hand and tell you who it is.....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I'm dutifully working my way through this thread, and am resigned that it will be some time before I get through it.

In an effort to save time, which CEB bullet would I want to use on an Aussie buffalo cull in a .458 Win? I'm sure I can order and receive them in Canada long before I can wade through another couple hundred pages, so I may as well get started. Is there a quick "no brainer" answer?

Dogleg........

420 gr Safari Raptor..... I have used it and this is the bullet for that sort of work, and the 458 Winchester. This is the bullet I use in my 458 B&Ms, and have used it on buffalo and its great...... It is the matching bullet for the 450 #13 Solid........

There is a dealer that imports the CEBs in Canada, as I recall, call Dan or Ken and let them lend a hand and tell you who it is.....

Michael

Dogleg-

Contact Mike at Reloading International, 1-541-404-2262, his email is: mike@reloadinginternational.com

He can export to you in a timely manner.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I'm dutifully working my way through this thread, and am resigned that it will be some time before I get through it.

In an effort to save time, which CEB bullet would I want to use on an Aussie buffalo cull in a .458 Win? I'm sure I can order and receive them in Canada long before I can wade through another couple hundred pages, so I may as well get started. Is there a quick "no brainer" answer?

Dogleg........

420 gr Safari Raptor..... I have used it and this is the bullet for that sort of work, and the 458 Winchester. This is the bullet I use in my 458 B&Ms, and have used it on buffalo and its great...... It is the matching bullet for the 450 #13 Solid........

There is a dealer that imports the CEBs in Canada, as I recall, call Dan or Ken and let them lend a hand and tell you who it is.....

Michael

Thank you, I suspected that the 420s would be the ones but wanted to get it right the first time. Getting bullets out of the States is a paperwork nightmare.

What about the 370gr .458 Lever Raptor with the Talon Tip installed? Wouldn't that work as well plus deliver a higher velocity impact on longer shots?

Cappy

The 370 Lever Raptor is an option, and would do the job without any issues at all..... However, not sure there is a lot of difference at 50 yds. In 458 Win we can start the 420 Safari Raptor out at 2375 fps and be under pressure. The 370 because it is seated so deep, we can start at 2450 fps. It would hit around 2325-2350 at 50 yards. The 420 at 2225 or so.
But the 420 will match dead on with the 450 Solid, and that is a big advantage...... One would hit and miss matching POI with the 370, which can be done. About as good one way or the other I think, or either or.....

If it was a multiple species hunt, might look at the 370 as a great option, and try to match the 450 Solid to it. Yes, there is a 400 solid match to the 370, and would do great on buffalo as well....... Elephant I would rather have the 450....

Good to have proper options I think..........

M

It isn't a multi species hunt, just basically all the mixed waterbuffalo I can shoot. I'm taking my old standby A-Frame load as well, so if the CEBs are going to work better it won't take long to find out.

Got a reply from CEB, no Canadian dealers yet. Next check, reloading international. I used to buy nosler seconds from him on eBay. Seems like a long time ago now.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
It isn't a multi species hunt, just basically all the mixed waterbuffalo I can shoot. I'm taking my old standby A-Frame load as well, so if the CEBs are going to work better it won't take long to find out.

Dog.... Yeah, to keep it simple, use the 420s...... I believe you will be able to tell the difference in animal reactions to taking the hits between this and the Swift, or any conventional. Swift is a great bullet, I used them for many years on many critters....... You will not get a lot of time to dig around inside on these sort of hunts, but do not make a mistake of looking at a caliber in, caliber out, hole, and making assumptions from that.... Ya gotta look inside to see the destruction.

A pet peeve of mine, lots of guys look outside, see caliber in, caliber out, especially on thicker skinned animals, and make assumptions based on that.....

M

I hope to see many of you at DSC in a few days..... Please come by and visit with us at Booth 932...... B&M Booth.

Trying to get packed and ready to leave for Dallas very early in the morning...........

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
It isn't a multi species hunt, just basically all the mixed waterbuffalo I can shoot. I'm taking my old standby A-Frame load as well, so if the CEBs are going to work better it won't take long to find out.

Dog.... Yeah, to keep it simple, use the 420s...... I believe you will be able to tell the difference in animal reactions to taking the hits between this and the Swift, or any conventional. Swift is a great bullet, I used them for many years on many critters....... You will not get a lot of time to dig around inside on these sort of hunts, but do not make a mistake of looking at a caliber in, caliber out, hole, and making assumptions from that.... Ya gotta look inside to see the destruction.

A pet peeve of mine, lots of guys look outside, see caliber in, caliber out, especially on thicker skinned animals, and make assumptions based on that.....

M

Could not agree more. The size of the hole in the hide does not tell the story. The destruction of the vitals is all that matters.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I hope to see many of you at DSC in a few days..... Please come by and visit with us at Booth 932...... B&M Booth.

Trying to get packed and ready to leave for Dallas very early in the morning...........

Michael

Please also drop by CUTTING EDGE BULLETS too! Booth 933- oh my... pretty near Michael!?!?

I'll be wearing my Cutting Edge Bullets, highest quality ball cap, that I got as a freebie at the St. Louis NRA convention a couple of years ago ...
Booths 932 and 933 at DSC 2014, got it.
I also have an AccurateReloading.com patch on a black beret, for that "Capstick" bon vivant a la bateleur appeal,
my honorary Bedouin head gear, and a couple of Stetsons.
All hat and no cattle. That's me.
I plan to have a good time, party hats.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I'll be wearing my Cutting Edge Bullets, highest quality ball cap, that I got as a freebie at the St. Louis NRA convention a couple of years ago ...
Booths 932 and 933 at DSC 2014, got it.
I also have an AccurateReloading.com patch on a black beret, for that "Capstick" bon vivant a la bateleur appeal,
my honorary Bedouin head gear, and a couple of Stetsons.
All hat and no cattle. That's me.
I plan to have a good time, party hats.

RIP, please don't forget that I'm in the booth directly behind Michael's.
Hope you can spare some time to stop in and say "g'day".

Mike, Deidi and I landed in Dallas about 6.00pm tonight after another loooong day in the air.
Pack some warm clothes.... it is seriously cold here ! Safe travel.

See you there at your booth, Paul.
Do you mind which hat I wear?