Yep… the 50 B&M Alaskan will definitely come into its own in the Ruger #1 and Win 1885 – as long as the brass holds up to the pressure…

I can't get over this with 30/30--- Those with 30 levers need to look at this seriously...

quote:

My buddy John was here today, messing around, same as me. He decided he wanted a 30/30 to plink around with, maybe shoot some pigs. So I had one, John and I don't trade or anything like that, I just send him home with my stuff and when he is done he brings it back. So I had a plain jane old 30/30 I had picked up somewhere, Winchester of course. Never fired it, been sitting in the cabinet for 20 yrs I imagine. So we took it to the range, just a few Remington Factory 150 gr something loads, 1/2 inch hi, dead center at 25 yds with the irons that were on it, no adjustments. Factory 150 was doing 2281 fps, you know me, gonna collect data on EVERYTHING, no matter what. So I had some 100 gr Raptors loaded, 38/H-4198. Fired two of them, 1 hole 25 yds, 1/4 inch hi, dead center---- 3072 fps!!!
20 inch barrel.........

I dare say the most wicked 30/30 to ever go to the field!!!!!!

Have to make a 30/30 B&M---HEH HEH.............

Hi Michael;

It's been a while since I've posted on this thread but I do follow it whenever I can.

Not wanting to get off topic, but on page 1 you show tests from the 330gr Barnes Banded that did very well. The reason I'm interested is that I still have more than 1/2 box of 'em and thinking I might like to try them on bl. bear this year from my .45-70 IMP (Improved)in a Ruger #1. I can get over 2600 fps but thinking 2500. (I'm aware that Barnes no longer makes 'em).

Now, from your setup and numbers (2331 MV and 2281 fps at impact @ 22 yards) it would appear that Barnes BC is way off!! They say it is .195 but my computer says it has to be .338!!! That's a huge difference. I'm not questioning your data at all, but I just want to make sure that I've got it right... you understand. It would not be the first time Barnes has been way off in their BCs!

But if I got it right from your numbers, at 2500 fps, that load would be quite flat shooting all the way to 350 - 400 yards for large game like moose! With plenty of energy and momentum.

I know I don't have to push it that fast for bear but if the BC is .338 then I'm interested in trajectory and not merely energy.

If and when you get a chance.... thanks.

BTW, congratulations on your great work, and your associates.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 Only

Hey, welcome back. Always glad to have you of course.

Now, 330 Barnes Banded Solid. Well, it did well, it is a good bullet, but I don't think the BC could be that high, still a flat nose solid. I am just guessing here, but I would say you might need to check your ??? what do you call it?? Form Factor?? Right now I have cleaned this computer, and have not installed the shooting software, and I don't run many BCs, so I forgot the damned terminology, you know, right on the tip of my..... but just can't get there, Jim...Help? HEH.........

Now, honestly 458Only, I would choose a better first bullet that would transmit lots of trauma to target... more than the 330 Barnes. I would take one of the 295 BBW#13 NonCons and tip it, or the 250 NonCon Tipped, it would be far more devastating and with those Talon Tips, then you would be in very good shape, plenty of penetration, tremendous trauma inflicted, good enough BCs, these just have everything going for them, and you can get much more velocity. If you are getting 2600 with a 330, look to 2800 +.

If you can't get some of these, let me know, I will send some to you!

Michael

Thanks Michael,

But to get the velocity at 22 yards (distance between the 2 chronographs, center to center) at 2331 MV at 2281 at 22 yards, assuming a temperature of 70* at 950 ft elevation -- and I don't know your elevation, but that's mine -- the BC works out to .338 according to my ballistics program.

Regarding your non-cons... yeah, that would be nice but you're a long way from Ontario in N. Carolina? But my other loads for bear are the 350 TSX's at 2550 fps or 450 Swift AFs at 2300, or 350 Speers at 2500. However, since I have these 330s lying around doing nothin' I just thought I might give them a try on something... but I wanted to check out your numbers first!

Thanks anyway... BTW, my Ruger #1 is long-throated, so there's no issue with COL.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Thanks Michael,

But to get the velocity at 22 yards (distance between the 2 chronographs, center to center) at 2331 MV at 2281 at 22 yards, assuming a temperature of 70* at 950 ft elevation -- and I don't know your elevation, but that's mine -- the BC works out to .338 according to my ballistics program.

Regarding your non-cons... yeah, that would be nice but you're a long way from Ontario in N. Carolina? But my other loads for bear are the 350 TSX's at 2550 fps or 450 Swift AFs at 2300, or 350 Speers at 2500. However, since I have these 330s lying around doing nothin' I just thought I might give them a try on something... but I wanted to check out your numbers first!

Thanks anyway... BTW, my Ruger #1 is long-throated, so there's no issue with COL.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Were it me, I'd get some of the Tipped non-cons that Michael was talking about and see if they are a good match for your barrel. Not all CEB non-cons shoot accurately in every rifle. [Sad, but true of every bullet due to the differences in barrels out there. I've got a 338 that does 1 MOA with several TTSX, but struggles to get 2" with a 176 raptor. Go figure. I haven't miked my barrel, though I know that its chamber is at the extreme for case diameter and needs 1-2 grains extra powder in most loads.]
When the CEB's work, you've found your load. Tipped, of course, for those who want to be ready for full power beyond 100 yards. Not only do they fly flatter, they hit alot harder.

Michael:
1) So, from all that you have discovered from this journey, what would you say is your go to bullet for a typical soft skinned animal scenario up to elk, kudu, gemsbok, zebra, and the like using the 500 B&M Alaskan as the launcher? It seems that we have the #13, 345 grain, the Raptor 350 grain(without tip), the #13, 365 grain, and others, heavier still. I think you even referenced a #13, 300 grain, at one time.

2)Would you use a differet bullet for the big bears and maybe, eland?

3)If you had to shoot African buffalo with this cartridge what would your NONCON and solid choices be?

Yes, I am using the Winchester Model 71(Browning Miroku version) as my platform. Using your and Layne Simpson's loading data I have experienced no sticky extractions. I know you pressure tested many of your loads, but, are these max loads on the 71 platform? Not sure how much more I could get out of the 71, but, do want to know what the operational limits of the 71 are so I don't exceed them? Probably will not get too experimental beyond your Marlin loads, anyway. My most impressive loads have been with the RL-10X, also.

quote:

But to get the velocity at 22 yards (distance between the 2 chronographs, center to center) at 2331 MV at 2281 at 22 yards,

Bob

OK, I know what is wrong with your numbers. It is NOT 22 yds between chronos. I set my first chronograph up 18 feet in front of the muzzle, and actual distance between chronographs at my 25 yard side of the range is more like 16 Yards. Run those numbers and and use a flat nose profile and I think your numbers will drop quite a bit.

You may assume 70 degrees, but its is a 3 hour drive to get to an elevation above 50 feet--LOL....

There are dealers in Canada for the CEBs.


MikeD

Good Questions.

First, last year I think, I changed the cavity width of all the .500s and .510s to wider. This caused all the .500s to loose 10 grs or so with the NonCons. The 345 you mention is discontinued-- Now a 335. There was a 375, now a 365. Raptor is NOT an Option in the 50 B&M Alaskan, it just takes up WAY to much case capacity, so forget it. Stick with 335 and 365. And yes, I have a 300 that will also work dandy.

Typical soft elk, moose, kudu zebra and such, choose your medicine, 300, 335, 365 all will do. I would like the added velocity of the 335s and 300s for this. Plenty of penetration with any of these critters, I would most likely lean to the 335 right now, since I have not put the 300 to work in the field yet. But it tests very good. Bear/Eland, 335.

Buffalo with the 50 B&M AK, I have seen the 335 do very well on buffalo in the 50 B&M Super Short, about the same velocity as in the 50 B&M AK. Two options here, use the combo 375 #13 Solid to back up the first shot with the matching 335 NonCon--Shoot hell out of that buffalo, first 335 then followed by the 375 #13 Solids. Other option, use the 365 NOnCon, backed by the matching 405 #13 Solid. Either of these will work fine, but lace him up with the solids.

All the current data, pressures and so forth, are Max with the MARLINS. I consider the M71 a bit stronger, I know mine are and I can get away with a tad more with the M71s, but since there are so many in the Marlins, I developed data for them. Let your rifle talk to you as you go up in your loads, it will let you know when you approach max with it. I would guess all around you can easy get 75-125 fps more with the M71 than the Marlins, same barrel length of course.

Ahhhh, yes, it seems that the RL 10X burns a bit more in those longer barrels, just as I suspected from Laynes Data.

Michael

Thanks Michael for taking the time...

Actually, from the info you provided it still works out this way:

MV = 2348

6 yards = 2331

25 yards = 2280 fps.

That's at 70*/ 0 ft elevation

And still a BC of .298, otherwise it won't work!!

Thanks for your help.

Where are those Canadian dealers?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob

I am not sure where the dealer in Canada is, but you can probably find it here.

http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/

Michael

Thanks again Michael.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Thanks again Michael.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob

You are welcome. I reinstalled my shooting program on this computer, and I don't get the BC you get with that Barnes Banded solid, 330? I still don't think you understand, there is 16 yds between start and finish chronograph when I do Terminals at 22 yds. Its a 25 yard setup, chrono #1 is 6 yds in front of the muzzle, with the terminal box in front of the 25 yd mark, it is 22 yds at impact, chrono right in front of the terminal box. 22 yds Impact minus the 6 yds in front of the muzzle, 16 yards between chronographs. Because of some of the muzzle blast in front of the rifles, I have that first chrono way out there so as to not be effected. Same at my 50 yd bench.

I get a BC of .192, and that is using a G1 Flat Base drag model. I don't exactly trust these drag models either????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Thanks again Michael.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob

You are welcome. I reinstalled my shooting program on this computer, and I don't get the BC you get with that Barnes Banded solid, 330? I still don't think you understand, there is 16 yds between start and finish chronograph when I do Terminals at 22 yds. Its a 25 yard setup, chrono #1 is 6 yds in front of the muzzle, with the terminal box in front of the 25 yd mark, it is 22 yds at impact, chrono right in front of the terminal box. 22 yds Impact minus the 6 yds in front of the muzzle, 16 yards between chronographs. Because of some of the muzzle blast in front of the rifles, I have that first chrono way out there so as to not be effected. Same at my 50 yd bench.

I get a BC of .192, and that is using a G1 Flat Base drag model. I don't exactly trust these drag models either????

Michael

for a second opinion on
1st chron 2331fps
16 yard separation
2nd chrono 2280fps
(G1, 70F, 200 ft elev. yada yada)

I get a BC of .257, which sounds about right, depending on the rest of the bullet after the meplat.

Bob,

Since you're using the M71 - depending upon Michael's upcoming test results - you may have the option of using the CAP W Talon Tip which should help both the BC and the terminal performance of the HP LV Non-Con bullet.

Capoward:
I was thinking the same thing. I ordered two boxes from CEB last week. Will be getting these shortly and will be giving them a try. Thanks for the suggestions.

Regards, Mike

Hey Mike,

I sent Michael’s comment to Dan…

quote:

I tested some of these Round Nose Tips in these same .500 caliber bullets. What I found is there was no issue with shearing, or with going off course, so the Round Nose tips are busting up OK--I think they can be better. What I did make note of is that the blades dispersed away from center faster, and penetration of the blades were less than with a "Talon Tip" in both cases. This would lead me to recommend to CEB that they go ahead and put the Hollow Point in this Round Nose tip as well to break up the RN Tip faster, by first weakening the tip itself, and also I think we are getting some hydraulic action going on inside the HP as well, assisting in breakup even faster, which is needed, and well proven through the Big Bore Talon Tips.

…along with the question as to whether he’d sent any of the modified tips to Michael for testing.

Long story short, Dan wasn’t aware of the issues so he is sending Michael some new CAP W Talon Tips to test to determine if they eliminate the above noted issues… Hopefully we’ll know the results in the near future.

Dan did say that the current CAP W Talon Tips without the drilled HP are available from CEB for telephone orders only – not listed on the website – and they only add 0.114” to the overall length of the bullet.

That’s it – I have nothing else to offer…

I think the round nose caps will do better with an HP in them. They did ok, fine, sheared, but I think that HP will help, like in the Talon Tips--I am sold on breaking that tip all to hell on contact, on contact with Terminals, tips no longer needed or desired.

Jesus, on that damned BC of that 330 Barnes-----

I looked at my number, and I had 2348 fps starting velocity--not 2331 fps. I plug in 2331 fps, I come up with .255 everything else being the same. So 17 fps made this much, .063 difference in BC. I am not sure any of them are correct? BC--Screw it, just don't shoot anything further than getting hit with the blood splatter on impact, and to hell with BC.

I like the idea of a hollow point RN cap over just a plain RN if you need the extra case capacity because it may need the extra low function impact velocity so you don't have a squirrely terminal bullet that does not go straight plus the flat point does more damage.

quote:

I don't get the BC you get with that Barnes Banded solid, 330?

Barnes lists the 330gr .458 BBS as having a .191 BC... and the 300gr .458 TTSX BT as having a .236 BC...

quote:

I like the idea of a hollow point RN cap over just a plain RN if you need the extra case capacity because it may need the extra low function impact velocity so you don't have a squirrely terminal bullet that does not go straight plus the flat point does more damage.

Exactly! Although, with a NonCon we are not particularly interested in extremely deep straight penetration, more interested in trauma. But, I really hate when things cannot be predicted and relied upon to do certain things--The very reason I DESPISE A ROUND NOSE SOLID---One cannot predict what they might do, from one shot to the next!

Michael

And we continue to move forward, with new discoveries. Just when you think you are finished, there is a new one....................

Remember that Cutting Edge .416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP that I had Dan work on? Seat Deep, use Talon Tip, work through the magazine. Well, that's just what we have. If you recall the great success of the .458 250 BBW#13 NonCon HP, then that is what this 416 is all about. We already know that BBW#13 NOnCons penetrate deeper than ANY Conventional bullet ever designed, so weight is just not an issue, #13 NonCons Like velocity, there is never too much of this. There is NO UPPER END for this bullet, nothing I am capable of reaching anyway.

Also, in the below photo, take note of the "Bulk Packaging" that I have been receiving for some months now. For me, this is just so much better and takes less shelf space, easy to store. They are also Vacuum Packed, which means they don't corrode over time, or poor storage, a plus with brass or copper bullets.





The Performance? Incredible--A bullet this light for caliber is not supposed to do this, Oh, that's right, this is why we call them NonCons-- Non Conventional.............................





And for you BC sorts, the distance between chronographs is 42 Yards............I have not done that yet.

If I were leaving tomorrow for Lion, leopard, bear, plains game, moose.................... And I was taking my little 18 inch Camo 416 B&M...... This would be my choice of bullet!!!!!!

Michael

Wow!
Flawless performance!
That bullet is awesome.
.186 SD! That is almost half the weight of a traditional DG 416 bullet but same penetration as conventional bullets.
Goes to show these bullets love velocity and no issue around .2SD
That would be even more insane in a hot loaded 416 Rigby.
That bullet should be optimized for the 400 Whelen, 405 Win, 450/400 ect in that weight range for PG, bear, hog and Lion medicine.
Without the tip for the 405 Win in the 1895

the BC on the pretty little bullet is .248.
Surprisingly, that is very similar to the flat-nose 330 grain .458 solid.

Why does the bullet have such a pretty shape and score relatively low on BC? Because it is very light. Very light.

So I ran a little trajectory table to see if acceptable.

Limiting the load in the Rigby to 5700 ftlbs, and assuming a real weight of 235 grains with the tip, produces a velocity of 3300 fps, and over a trajectory with a max height of 2.1" only drops -4.5" at 300 yards, BUT with a 9.6" wind drift in 10mph over the same distance.

That is a pretty impressive bullet, definitely a non-con. I guestimated a 1.3" total length with a tip length of .3". The stability factor came out at 1.2. (Though remember that I assume traditional 16.5" twists, like the CZ's.) That low stability factor was a bit of a shock for these big bores where stability factors are usually not an issue. That might explain why some of the original tests with heavier 'tipped non-con's were having trouble grouping. This bullet should be OK. When and if the bullet is reshaped for an ER, I would expect the BC to break the .300 barrier, and the bullet may end up a little heavier.

This is definitely a puzzle worth working on.

And thank you, Michael, for the test.

Yes the light weight but the bands that give the low pressure or higher velocity are a drag pun intended.
Not designed for high BC long range but lethality. The brass or better still the copper ER Raptors will be best for beyond 400 yards and similar terminal performance. I got to play with the ER Raptors in 30 and 338 and they are as pretty and vicious as an ex wife supermodel assassin. Might be a while before those get made in all calibers. They excel in lethality and longer ranges but come tip attached and can only be shot one way wich will suit a lot of people's needs. I love all of the variants on this.

quote:

That might explain why some of the original tests with heavier 'tipped non-con's were having trouble grouping.

Tanz

Raptors--Yes BBW#13 Flat base NonCons---Not, I know of only ONE instance with one rifle that adding a tip to a BBW#13 NonCon caused instability---Only once--And that is it.

Raptors in most all cases we started out too heavy, and had to go light.

Michael

Michael

While you are set up on the 416 could you check the difference in POI between the 225 NonCon and the 325/350 combo?

Inquiring minds want to know



sure looks like this 225 NC is gonna be a winner

Cross

Yes, I can check, but at that speed I think the 225s are going to be WAY WAY TOO HI to even come close to POI with the 350/325s.

Yes, I am seriously impressed with the 225! As much so as I am with the 250 458--Two big winners in my book.

M

quote:

That would be even more insane in a hot loaded 416 Rigby.

You're right Boomie. Who ever heard of a dangerous game bullet traveling 3300 fps?

But if you want "hot" and "insane", then the Rigby will go even faster. I don't have any experience with such light bullets in a 416Rigby but I do know that my rifles go over 6000 ftlbs like a dog takes to a walk in the park. So where are its real ceilings, assuming cool primers and cases?

At 3450 fps the 235-grain, tipped, .416 non-con would have 6211 ftlb, a power level that is safe and reasonable with heavier bullets in a modern Rigby, though I don't have clue what kind of powder might make that happen. Maybe one of those new-fangled types CFE or Leverrevolution? I've used R-17 since it came out with heavier bullets but I don't know if it would run out of room with such a light bullet.

Anyway, a DG bullet screaming across the veldt at 3450 fps and not rising over 2.1" above the line of sight would only drop -3.5" at 300 yards. That is wonderfully flat and would allow Michael to certify the 416 Rigby as an official 'rat gun'. Spur-wing geese across a bend in the river better look out. It's always worked for guinea fowl:

(Yes, our trackers and scouts think this is crazy, but they share the soup.)

However, just like the .223 and .243 rifles start to lose effectiveness after 300 yards, so would this Rigby. The wind drift at 300 yards would still be 9.1". As a rule of thumb, a light-medium weight calibre (270--338) tuned for longrange can typically achieve a 6" winddrift limit, due to using bullets with a BC .450-.500.

So, yes, one would give up a little advantage on the really small game, and an oribi might be missed at 300 yards because of wind. But this is the terminals thread. If Michael's test bullet did 21" at 2750 fps. What would it do if released at 3300 or 3400? Maybe 25"?

However, again like the .223 and .243, as one goes beyond 300 yards, the BC starts to take a heavy toll. At 400 yards, the above 3450 fps bullet will only drop -14", but its 10mph windrift would be 17", its energy already down to below 2500 ftlbs., and its velocity under 2200fps.

Yes, the bullet will work as an eland bullet over 300 yards, but I suspect that Dan will be able to improve this a bit. A good longrange eland bullet should not drift over 12" at 400 yards. Drop is less critical because of rangefinders today. Is a higher BC non-con possible? We'll see.

Is an ultimate eland bullet worth it? Imagine watching a ' purple mountain majestic ' eland from a ridge 300-400 yards away. . . . It's why the Rigby will always be great.

Tanz

You have a new NickName from me "Hi BC Tanz".......... Maybe take a look at these for that work.




OK, seems we are on a 416 kick this week. So, lets look at my age old question, the one that has led us to here, to Today.

How Does One Enhance Any Cartridge or Rifle?
Simple Answer........ The Bullet!

If One is a Mere Mortal, such as myself, we look at enhancement in the field at normal hunting ranges. I keep pretty decent records of most things, one of those records is the game I have taken in the field. I record rifle, cartridge, bullet, range, caliber and so forth. Of the NON Dangerous Game I have taken and recorded the range has been anything from 2 yards to a maximum of 335 yards. Species includes Red Stag, fallow deer, baboons, warthogs, impala, hartebeast, bushbuck, pronghorn, goats, wildebeast, zebra, kudu, eland, giraffe, oryx, nyala, elk, moose, blesbok, ostrich, reedbuck, sable, roan, waterbuck, and multiples of most of those, many of those I have shot a lot of. My average distance with everything recorded is;

84.53 Yards...............................

Some other interesting statistics, which will shed some light on my personality I am afraid;

80.54% of my field shooting has been with a Winchester Rifle of sorts.

Caliber

.308 caliber or less--5.88%
.338--.366..... 23.98%
.416--.500..... 70.14%


So as you can see for me personally I have little interest in Hi BC bullets. Now, I am not saying right, wrong or in between, I am just saying for myself personally. Now I know some chaps that are seriously into that extreme long long long........................ Range shooting, 1000 + yards, I am not one of those, and nothing wrong with that either, just not my thing, I have always been CQB, I suppose I will remain always remain so.

For those that need Hi BC, go to it.... Its a field I am not interested in, nor do I need, so I personally do not intend to put a lot of time and effort into that. I will leave that to you guys, as you are far more qualified than I anyway.

So, right now this morning, It is "DoughNuts" for Dads morning at Mercedes school, so I will be attending that and return with some other thoughts later this morning concerning this weeks subject;

416 caliber bullets, and how does this new CEB 225 BBW#13 NoNCon Fit in........... Do stay tuned..

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Tanz

You have a new NickName from me "Hi BC Tanz"..........

. . .

OK, seems we are on a 416 kick this week. So, lets look at my age old question, the one that has led us to here, to Today.

How Does One Enhance Any Cartridge or Rifle?
Simple Answer........ The Bullet!

Absolutely--the bullet does the work, the cartridge just delivers it to the job.
And high BC just ensures that the bullet arrives a little fresher and a little more reliably.

quote:

If One is a Mere Mortal, such as myself, we look at enhancement in the field at normal hunting ranges. I keep pretty decent records of most things, one of those records is the game I have taken in the field. I record rifle, cartridge, bullet, range, caliber and so forth. Of the NON Dangerous Game I have taken and recorded the range has been anything from 2 yards to a maximum of 335 yards. Species includes Red Stag, fallow deer, baboons, warthogs, impala, hartebeast, bushbuck, pronghorn, goats, wildebeast, zebra, kudu, eland, giraffe, oryx, nyala, elk, moose, blesbok, ostrich, reedbuck, sable, roan, waterbuck, and multiples of most of those, many of those I have shot a lot of. My average distance with everything recorded is;

84.53 Yards...............................
Some other interesting statistics, which will shed some light on my personality I am afraid;

80.54% of my field shooting has been with a Winchester Rifle of sorts.

Caliber

.308 caliber or less--5.88%
.338--.366..... 23.98%
.416--.500..... 70.14%


So as you can see for me personally I have little interest in Hi BC bullets. Now, I am not saying right, wrong or in between, I am just saying for myself personally. Now I know some chaps that are seriously into that extreme long long long........................ Range shooting, 1000 + yards, I am not one of those, and nothing wrong with that either, just not my thing, I have always been CQB, I suppose I will remain always remain so.

For those that need Hi BC, go to it.... Its a field I am not interested in, nor do I need, so I personally do not intend to put a lot of time and effort into that. I will leave that to you guys, as you are far more qualified than I anyway.

So, right now this morning, It is "DoughNuts" for Dads morning at Mercedes school, so I will be attending that and return with some other thoughts later this morning concerning this weeks subject;

416 caliber bullets, and how does this new CEB 225 BBW#13 NoNCon Fit in........... Do stay tuned..

Michael

enjoy the doughnuts.



Anyway, Michael, your short impressive firesticks and the "doubles" on these lists have positively influenced some of us to build the 'shorter-stick' 500AccRel as the most bang for the buck on buffalo and in tight. There is no such thing as too much gun, so I am happy to carry a 500 even if it is not the ultimate long-range antelope gun. And for Africa, I'd rather have a versatile, hot 416 than a 338 Lapua (remember-it's the bullet that does the work), though the old plain jane 338WM still has a warm spot in my heart for antelope out as far as I would shoot (400).

the point of all of this: if you just keep doing what you do, we are grateful,
because, whether directly or indirectly, it helps those of us who may want a longer application, too. And who is to say that a 'perfect' eland bullet won't be a fantastic buffalo bullet, and viceversa.

Ah... Doughnut Day for Dads.... Something all schools should have!

Thanks Tanz
Yes, doughnuts were good. Then one thing or another, and it is much later than I figured to get back to this!

I want to do a little 416 review of bullets we have tested, and see how this new 225 BBW#13 Fits in. Basically, to be honest, I already know, but I do this on a very regular basis, most of you do not, and you tend to forget other comparisons, so I would like to show you............

Probably my favorite 416 "Conventional" bullet, that I started using in the B&M before the NonCons. 350 TSX, my boys used this bullet in South Africa in a 416 B&M in 2008 with great success on several critters, kudu, oryx and such.



Swift, always a great Conventional Bullet....



300 Barnes TSX........



Some 350 TSX from the field......



From the only buffalo I have ever shot with any 416, 350 Swift........



One of the Hornady Interbonds, before the DGX



One of my favorites, or used to be, in 416 340 Woodleigh...





Old test with 400 Woodleigh....



Noslers entry.......



400 Barnes TSX..........



370 North Fork................The Perfect Conventional Lead core bullet--or at least Hybrid Lead Core



325 North Fork Conventional, a Favorite of mine as well..............





OK, that is a fair look at more conventional bullets, surely you can get the jest of things from that. Some very excellent bullets tested above, and have done great work in the field most all of them in the past, some of you have probably used some of these same bullets in the field, and you know exactly how they work and can even compare yours to mine from the test work.

I have a Question to Ask You???

How do you think a 416 caliber 225 gr "Conventional" Bullet would compare with the bullets above in terminal Performance??

So, next question, how do you think our little 416 225 BBW#13 NonCon HP did, in comparison to the Conventional Bullets shown above?






Would you shoot a Kudu with the 225 BBW#13 HP? Zebra?

How about Moose? Elk? Bears? Lion? Leopard?

Yes, I think so!!!!!!

Michael

Has anyone tried top velocity with the 250 non con in the 45-70?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Has anyone tried top velocity with the 250 non con in the 45-70?

Boomy

I took the very first Guide Gun in 45/70 that I owned and worked up loads in it with RL 7 and the 250 BBW#13 NonCon. I was able to work it up to 2395 fps in the 18 inch Guide Gun and still had no
issues or problems. All Guide Guns are not created equal in what they will take. But this one, and one other I had here were not a problem at that velocity. No sticky levers, nothing. A Guide Gun (Marlin) will talk back to you pretty quickly too when it does not like something.

It is my belief that the .458 250 #13 HP absolutely takes a 45/70 to new levels of performance never seen before with one. While I have not tried yet, I have a couple of 1885s left in 45/70, I can't imagine what you could do with one of those, and add a tip to the 250??? I sent the only Ruger #1 I had in 45/70 to be converted to 50 B&M AK....... What could you do with these big single shots and that bullet??? Whoa....... New story!

Michael

I'm thinking that 250 in any 45-70 transforms it. In a longer barrel 2,400 to 2,450 would be so much more lethal than anything out there already. I think if I was hunting brown bear I might want the 295 grain for heavy bone.

Boomy, I concur with you on the transformation, it is the SAME with our own 50 B&M Alaskan. While the .500 has a lot going for it, and a big edge over the other levers, put good bullets with it, and it gets better..........

From Org, with his new 50 B&M Alaskan.................

quote:

Subject; 1 Eland Down

Hi Micheal

I took m 50 out of the safe and this is what happend. The scope battery went down and i had to take it off. I shot this bull at 85 meters open sights with one the 365 noncon
Hollow points it ran 10 meters and went down. The shot was straight on the shoulder bone went through the one shoulder and through the other shoulder as well. I Recoverd the bullet under the skin on the other side of the shoulder. I am very very confidant that what comes in front of that rifle will go down. The people that went with did not have alot of faith in my 50 but what they saw yesterday made them believers. Hope all is well in the US. I will be sending you some more results in the weeks to come.
Keep well and send my regards to your family.

Org

Org was using a 365 gr BBW#13 NonCon 62/IMR 4198 at 2165 fps. Seems to have done a pretty good job. Another NonCon testimony and this time from the lever guns. BBW#13s have transformed the lever guns into "Big Medicine"...... Congrats to Org!!!!!!

Michael

That did the job well.
Is it just me or are these bullets better designed to be more lethal on heart lung shots instead of shoulder shots? I think they excell in both but the heart lung shots at higher velocity seem to be working better than heavier slower on the shoulder.
What is the lightest .500" noncon? I think a .500" non con 275 grainer could be in order.

Boom

Word from Org this morning is that he had holes in the heart, lungs and other vitals from bullet and blades. Fact is, yes, we do get more destruction of tissue with more velocity from these NonCons, no doubt about it.

Big Fact; All Critters are Not Created Equal....

Eland are HUGE to say the least, and damned tough. In a very similar situation last April, I busted a big eland right through the shoulder/heart with a 500 MDM and a 350 Raptor at over 2700 fps. Bullet was tipped, hit eland at 45-50 yards, so impact velocity was way high compared to Orgs 365 #13 HP starting at 2165 and hitting at 85 yds or so, and no tip.....

My eland had a 2 inch diameter hole right off the side of his heart, shoulder busted all to hell, bullet traveled through lungs, blades through lungs, an absolute MESS to say the least. That eland took off in a dead run, and died EXACTLY 50 yards from where the shot was, I paced it off. Died on his feet to according to the marks on the ground he took a dive......

Now Org shoots one, with even less impact velocity, same caliber, near the same weight, and it goes 10 yards and flops dead......

By all rights, mine should have never moved from its spot, but it did.....

These big animals are hard to bring down... My little 9.3 B&M and 210 Raptor was hammering the hell out of impala, hartebeast, and even wildebeast, all that dropped to the shot, even one of the wildebeast, one wildebeast made a mad dash 40 yds, died on his feet again..... But, when I got to busting Zebra with the same, they all ran like hell... 30-60 yds, stone cold dead on their feet and took nose dives. Zebra are tough as hell.

It is very true, in the time that I have used various BBW#13 Brass NonCons I have seen more trauma inflicted at the shot, and more instant take downs than anything I have ever witnessed..... So much so, that when they don't drop to the shot I am disappointed. Now, that is wrong to be disappointed, and rather naive as well.... I know better than to expect that on every single shot, it just can't happen, these animals are tough, and as good as the BBW#13 is, and its the best I have ever witnessed on all counts, it is still a bullet and there are NO Miracle Bullets that magically Smite down everything in their path of resistance, every single time. It just don't work that way, and none of us should expect that. What I try to concentrate on, is putting that bullet in the front half of the animal, if I do that, then it is OVER at that point, that is the end of story, it is finished, whether it is on the spot, or 50 yds down the trail, its done, over, finished, end of story.

I see this "Miracle" bullet thought process as well on 9.3/375 users on Buffalo.... It is true, this bullet enhances all calibers and cartridges. No doubt. But some shooters/hunters are disappointed when a buffalo does not turn feet up, on the shot, with a 375. Regardless of killing the hell out of a buffalo. No matter the bullet, buffalo are tough, and they have little respect for 9.3 or 375 calibers. End of Story......

One last thought. Dan told me this some time ago. A fellow decided that he needed Raptors for his 7mm Magnum, he was going after plains game in South Africa. So he got some, loaded up, and off he goes. Every animal he shoots, he takes, does not loose anything. Story is, he shot a zebra, the shot was according to him 10 inches to the rear of the front shoulder. Zebra ran off, and died 50-100 yards or so. Fellow claimed the bullet failed by not putting the zebra in the dirt where it stood. Demanded his money back. So he sent all his remaining bullets back to Dan, and of course Dan refunded his money! Talk about Over Expectations, and especially with a pure shit for caliber 7mm. I hate 7mm, even more so than 375! Incredible..............

OK, I said last thought, but not, one more point...

Most hunters, not shooters, hunters. They don't dig for bullets most of the time, and much of the time don't understand the dynamics behind terminal performance, and FOR SURE are not going to understand the dynamics of how a Brass NoNCon actually works. Its called a NonCon for a reason, its purely Non ConVentional, in every sense of the word.. It has taken me some time to actually understand how they work, and I have studied it more than any single individual on the planet, but I got it now and I know.

Upon entry into the chest cavity, this bullet shears, a small explosion of sorts, taking a huge part of the entry side chest cavity OUT, and along with the traveling mass of bullet and blades. To around 4-6 inches of travel after the blades shear, those blades are close enough to the main bullet that they slice and dice that expanding tissue, causing tremendous damage, and massive holes during this part of terminals. Normally this tissue would expand at the passage of the bullet, and return to less of a permanent wound channel, however, with these 6 blades slicing that expanding tissue, and in some cases absolutely destroying it in the process, permanent wound channel is increased dramatically over what a conventional bullet can destroy. Now, larger bore size and calibers, these blades slice their way away from center, and eventually become secondary slicing projectiles on their own account. All the while the center main bullet travels dead straight ahead, and in most cases will exit broadside, of course depending on many factors........ Now, "Joe Hunter" walks up to his dead animal, and he sees a "Caliber" entrance, and a "Caliber" exit and that is all. Because, when this remaining slug of a NonCon exits, it is like a buzz saw, sharp edges CUT the hide on the far side in a neat caliber size exit in the hide. Skin is extremely elastic, and tough. Acts like a
trampoline and catches many conventionals because of the broader surface, and soft edges. Not so with a NoNCon, that NonCon acts like a drill bit, and cuts that hide and exits. This is why you don't see big Blowout exits most of the time with a NonCon, they are VERY VERY Hide Friendly, skin friendly you might say.

So "Joe Hunter" looks at entrance and then exit, and does not see the big blowout he is used to seeing, then declares the bullet did not "Open Up" as an amateur would say! He inspects no further than that...........

Other side of the coin, or in this case, other side of the chest cavity.... "Joe Hunter" may look as they skin his critter in the skinning shed, and see this MASSIVE hole in the chest cavity on the entrance side. Since he does not understand the function of what is going on, he believes that the bullet "Broke UP" on entry, and then declares yet again, another failure, simply because he does not understand the dynamics of what is actually happening here. Simply ignorance, based on some former experience with conventional bullets. Not that "Joe Hunter" is a dumbass, or stupid, or a prick, its just that he does not understand.

While most of us here understand how they work, because we have either seen it, or I have presented it to you in the test work and from the field, not everyone reads this Terminal Performance Thread.

Random thoughts is all........

Michael

Congrats Org!!!..... Another Non-Con slam dunk.

Org,
That poor little fella was so small he still had milk on his lips from mommas tit