This is Hoot! Long time AR member, since 2001! Some time ago, Hoot asked me about some bullets for an upcoming elephant hunt. As I recall he was shooting at one time Trophy Bonded Solids, could not find any, but had some North Forks that he got last year from John at DSC I believe. I recommended the NEW NORTH FORK PROFILE--Hoot did so, and was very successful with it.

Here is what Hoot has to say;

quote:

Mike
Don't know if you remember me or my message to you regarding your choice of solid bullets from your exhaustive testing. I know that you are a busy man and I very much appreciated your informative reply which not only listed your choice, but the reasons why.

Upon your recommendation I purchased the Northfork Solid in 416 caliber. I took this bullet, loaded to 2400 fps in 416 Rigby to Zimbabwe elephant hunting this month and I shot a bull elephant at 14 yards with a frontal brain shot. The bullet entered the center of the brain, penetrating the spine for a total of over 5 feet before exiting the elephant. I don't think the elephant even heard the shot as he was dead before his hind end hit the ground. My PH said that this was his 87th elephant kill and he has never seen that much penetration through mostly bone and still retain enough energy to exit the elephant.

quote:

Mike,

I bought the old style solids at the DSC Convention last year. Then they came out with their new bullet. I asked you for your recommendation for a solid bullet as I could not find the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer. You recommended the new Northfork Solid and for me to use the others for practice, which I did.

Now in this photo take note of the two sticks Hoot stuck in the entrance and the exit. Today Hoot says that was measured and it was 5.5 feet between entrance and exit. I imagine that North Fork is still going--Wonder if Hoot was shooting east or west? Hmmmm?



Congratulations Hoot! You went to the field prepared, and with the right equipment, and you were successful! As it should be.

Hoot has also decided to come visit with us at DSC, so we look forward to seeing you there!

Michael

Would be good to have a list of PH's who endorse this bullet profile. The cats out of the bag now. We all here know what it takes to penetrate well. It may take a while longer for the general hunting population to think unconventionally but I see great growth for its future. Lots to be proud of with the work done here. I wonder what other designs and phenomena we can discover.

quote:

Would be good to have a list of PH's who endorse this bullet profile.

Thats easy, All the PHs that have seen it work that I know of thus far, to the man!
Either BBW#13 or the new North Fork.

quote:

I wonder what other designs and phenomena we can discover.

I know there are things out there lurking around, but it is going to be very difficult
to improve on what we have accomplished already. I know I am pretty pleased with everything
and I am not looking too hard anymore, I feel like I am exactly where I need to be.

One of the things that I am looking at is lighter for caliber #13 NonCons, in the big bores. I did this 250 gr .458, and I am very pleased with it, amazed actually. I believe for anything short of buffalo this will do a hell of a job. I want to look at something like this in .416, maybe .474, and I already have an excellent 300 gr .500. .510 has a 350 that we just did as well. These bullets are extremely capable.

Next buffalo shoot I go on as well, I will be looking at lighter than normal for caliber #13 NonCons and North Fork CPS.

Michael

I would sure be interest in working with a lighter BBW#13 in 416. The 325 was great even on Impalla but i would sure like to see what else can happen---

Also a lighter 458 for the SS for cats

Oh NO, Michael! Now I need some of those 250gr cartridges for my .458B&M! I can use it on my DikDik in June and not need to take a light rifle, and the 458B&M will back up my 500NE on the Elephant.

Sean- I think that 250gr would be just right for Lion and Leopard.

That 250 gr BBW#13 .458 ran 2860 fps in the 458 B&M, at 50 yards gave an incredible 18 inches of penetration. In the 458 BM Super Short at 2700 fps at 50 yds 16 inches. That is more than all conventional 458s up to 400 grs. At 18 inches it is borderline buffalo, a 500 Nosler Partition only went 19 inches, 500 Woodleigh 20 inches, both those from 458 Lott! Just to give you an idea!

I would not hesitate to use that bullet for many different missions! This is why I think we need to look at a very light 416, I have not run numbers yet and just blowing off the top, but 225 is rolling around in my mind right now.

Mike, I have some of those 250s left! Oh, and in a Marlin Guide gun they run almost 2400 fps, 45/70!!!!!!

Michael

quote:

In the 458 BM Super Short at 2700 fps at 50 yds 16 inches.

now we are talking cat medicine--esp with the small tip to run through the magazine AND start seperation of petals

Michael at those velocities could you check penetration on tipped vs un-tipped? I almost would bet the tipped bullets penetrate further because the petals separate sooner. leaving the base to keep penetrating

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Katherine also shot a buffalo cow. It was so old it had lost almost all of its teeth. It was a good fun hunt. She shot it facing us at about 80 yards, it ran about 100 meters, she went on the follow up and shot it offhand at about 30 yards, put it down, and fired on more insurance shot all on her own she was very excited.

She shot it with my 10 pound CZ 375 H&H with the 25" barrel with loaded down 260 grain Nosler Partitions. Michael where did you go? Are you OK buddy?

OMG........Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!

I was thinking the same about the Partitions on buffalo!

Nice going Mike. Looks like you hit the ele in the correct spot. Amazing though how tough it is to get that brain. I still haven't done it completely satisfactorily.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

In the 458 BM Super Short at 2700 fps at 50 yds 16 inches.

now we are talking cat medicine--esp with the small tip to run through the magazine AND start seperation of petals

Michael at those velocities could you check penetration on tipped vs un-tipped? I almost would bet the tipped bullets penetrate further because the petals separate sooner. leaving the base to keep penetrating

Matthew is out on the farm right now deer hunting with my 458 Super Short, and this 250 #13, tipped.

Tipped penetrates deeper always because of impact velocity. I could test however. 3 inches difference between the Tipped 458 Super Short and the Non Tipped 45/70. 3 inches while not a tremendous amount, still is of note. If I were running 45/70 these days, general purpose do everything short of buffalo, this is the bullet.

Todd, I passed out completely at the mention of 375, I did not make it to the Partition part!


But Mike, since I have recovered at this point, please send Congrats to Katherine, job well done, even if she had poor equipment! Just shows what good shooting can do, even faced with poor odds! We are going to have to fix her up with a proper caliber and rifle for this sort of work if she continues! HEH HEH.................. I am thinking a nice light, short, 416, around 6.5 lbs, 18 inch barrel, loaded down with 350s at a meager 2100 fps, no recoil, plenty of power, and a bit more caliber to accomplish that mission!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I was thinking the same about the Partitions on buffalo!

Nice going Mike. Looks like you hit the ele in the correct spot. Amazing though how tough it is to get that brain. I still haven't done it completely satisfactorily.

Todd,

The head shot from the 470 knocked the elephant down, I hit it again immediately. It got up and four shots later it was down. It lasted only a few seconds.

I have the buffalo shooting down pretty good. The elephant still gives me fits. I shot a little too high on this one. In the jesse at about 12 yards I had about a half a second to decide to shoot or not.

We are at Nehimba now. I will finish the complete report early next week. We have had a great experience this trip.

quote:

But Mike, since I have recovered at this point, please send Congrats to Katherine, job well done, even if she had poor equipment! Just shows what good shooting can do, even faced with poor odds! We are going to have to fix her up with a proper caliber and rifle for this sort of work if she continues! HEH HEH.................. I am thinking a nice light, short, 416, around 6.5 lbs, 18 inch barrel, loaded down with 350s at a meager 2100 fps, no recoil, plenty of power, and a bit more caliber to accomplish that mission!

I was thinking about a .410 B&M around 7.25 pounds.

Those .409 bullets penetrate.

I killed the first buffalo (I think) with the copper NonCon, might as well have the first .410 B&M.

Aint No flies on the 416 B&M-



'Course I cheated--mine has a 20 in barrel--

but it sure handled buff and elle- and was still super nice on PG-zebra,impala,kudu,wildebeest

one thing I haven't seen mentioned-should put this up on the length of barrel thread also--

that nice short barrel is very easy to handle in those tiny vehicles they use in africa-when you need to bail out in a hurry-

Complaint, rant, and rave time. I took the .224/53gr NonCon to hunt whitetail deer using a .223Rem. They did not work! Of course this may have been because they never left the muzzle. Did not see a deer until the day after the season closed...then a lot of them.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Complaint, rant, and rave time. I took the .224/53gr NonCon to hunt whitetail deer using a .223Rem. They did not work! Of course this may have been because they never left the muzzle. Did not see a deer until the day after the season closed...then a lot of them.

The deer sense death and hid in fear

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:


I was thinking about a .410 B&M around 7.25 pounds.

Those .409 bullets penetrate.

I killed the first buffalo (I think) with the copper NonCon, might as well have the first .410 B&M.

Mike

Yes, to the best of my knowledge you are the first to use those Copper NonCons.

410 B&M, have a reamer so it is possible. Has not been a rifle built yet. No problem building a rifle, biggest issue is the dies, Hornady is taking about 6 months + right now, and that is after a rifle is built and provide them some chamber fired brass.

It would be an ok cartridge/rifle, there is no doubt about it, I have tested those bullets too, and nearly built one based on nothing but those two BBW#13s! But, better sense prevailed, since I personally was invested in 416 already, I really could not justify it, especially with so many good 416 bullets flying about. In the end, all BS aside, I really think you are better off in 416, far more versatility in just bullet choice and I am increasing that after Dallas.

quote:

Complaint, rant, and rave time. I took the .224/53gr NonCon to hunt whitetail deer using a .223Rem. They did not work! Of course this may have been because they never left the muzzle.

Had me going there for a 1/2 second!

I keep seeing downstairs in small bores 223 and deer threads, several of them. I really would like to tell those guys to get one of these NonCons and change the 223 world, but I just have not taken the time, and I am not sure they understand, would have to explain, blah blah blah, then one of them would accuse me of being a "Bullet Pimp" and on and on we go! From what I have been told, and what I have seen, they RIP deer a new one, and then some more. I had one of my buddies shoot 7-8 last year with the 55 #13 and they all hit the dirt. Sam shot one I know with the 40 Raptor, and it hit the dirt, and exited!!! Yes, I think the .224 Raptors make excellent Zombie bullets as well!

Michael

quote:

and I am increasing that after Dallas.

the is going to be interesting--
seeing as how I am the lead on 416 now----





Damn I LOVE THIS LITTLE RIFLE-

ZOMBIES! Yes ZOMBIES! Why didn't I think of that.

40-grainer or 50-grainer, which is best for all-around versatility on zombies at all ranges?
14" or faster twist for 40-grainer, 9" or faster twist for 50-grainer.
And there is always that .224/55-grain Dangerous Game Brass Hollowpoint to consider for CQB with zombies.

40-grain


50-grain


55-grain

I took the heavier .224 bullets. Problem was, the Thompson Center Contender carbine in .223 had a 1-14 twist. We measured this afterward. After what? After we fired at a target at 50yds, twice, and the bullets went throught sideways. Gonna order a .223 barrel with a 1-9" twist to use these.

There is zero doubt in my mind that this selection of .224s are absolutely the finest Zombie busters that have ever been in this caliber. From what I have heard, from what I have seen, and the reports I get in from my local testers, everyone of them have proven beyond doubt on deer sized critters. My one buddy here shoots 10-15 deer + a year, and last year used the 55 #13 NonCon on at least 7 deer as I recall, he told me this, "Never Seen Anything Like It" Standard story. Sam busted the one deer with the 40 gr and we all saw the devastation then right here.

RIP

As always, you are spot on with the bullet for the twist rates. I have one M700 in 223 that shoots the 40s in a hole, and the 55s in a hole at 50 yds, 50s with tips, sideways, add a tip to the 55, sideways. 40s happy with tip. I think those are 1:12 twists.

I had two Win M70s here, I think they were 1:14??? NOt sure, but they would only do the 40s. I sent them to Brian, he had 2 match grade 1:8 twist barrels there, and we put them on those M70s and they shoot all of them in a hole at 50 tipped or no tip.

All the rest of my guns in .224 here are 1:9, and they are excellent with all 3.

Absolutely correct, I have a rifle set up for CQB with those 55 BBW#13 NonCons, for those close range zombies that make it through the line! LOL....................

These bullets are so good terminally that I would purposely change barrels out to faster twist rates so I could work with them.

Michael

Thinking about a better musket ball.
How would a non deforming solid like a cylindrical octagon with driving bands around the outer diameter do as far as stability and penetration. Was thinking for high velocity shotgun carts and such. I figured the non deforming meplat would penetrate well while being quite stable even if it hit a twig ect. Think bear defense that could penetrate well. Good for smooth or rifled barrels.

Any load data for the .224" 55gr

quote:

Originally posted by RNS:
Any load data for the .224" 55gr

RNS

No secret formula needed for these. Basically use data that you either already have, or a good place to start is the Barnes Manual.

I do have some pretty decent data on the Raptors, and some on the 55#13 as well. I will make an effort to get it together, and post it on the B&M website in pdf so it can be downloaded.

Michael

Michael

Thanks. I have been looking at the Barnes Manual as a good place to start.

In the 404J would there be any advantage to using the
375gn NonCon & 400gn FP over the 325gn NonCon & 350gn FP?

The lighter bullets would run a fair bit faster & from what
I'm understanding these love speed.

And since the lighter for Caliber NonCons are doing so well
in other calibers.

Thoughts?

Cheers, Allen

Hi Allen.
What are you hunting?
What would be your max range?

225 yards max for PH size.

Eventually Buff, but at much closer range of course.

The FN would be for Elephant or even in Ele country.

Might use the FN on smaller game at close range for less
damage.

Would like to use two bullets to cover everything.
ie... a NonCon & #13 FN.

I would want something like the 300 grain 416 Raptor but obviously in .423" or a tipped non con. I also would want to slug the barrel since there seems to be some barrel diameter differences between manufacturers of 404 barrels and we are talking solids.

quote:

In the 404J would there be any advantage to using the
375gn NonCon & 400gn FP over the 325gn NonCon & 350gn FP?

Hi Allen

I concur with some of your other comments;

quote:

The lighter bullets would run a fair bit faster & from what
I'm understanding these love speed.

And since the lighter for Caliber NonCons are doing so well
in other calibers.

From everything I have seen thus far, if it were me, I would be using the 350/325 #13 Combo, running velocity up on both NonCon and Solid. I have never messed with a 404J, so not really sure what can be done, but I am sure you can run them more than fast enough to do the job, elephant, buffalo, hippo! No doubt added velocity increases trauma, and penetration, both from the NOnCon and the Solid as well.

Michael

I have a couple of reports for you guys.

First from our own 450NE. He has been hammering poor little deer over in TN now for some time, with both 458 B&M and 50 B&M. He has come to like the 295 #13 in his 458 B&M pretty good for this work---UNTIL TODAY. First time he had one run off on him!

Yes, he hit the deer, and it ran off!


When I asked how far? 2.5 Inches!



Here is another report, and an ugly photo to go with it too.
This is from "Bob", and I am just quoting an email he sent below.

quote:

Medium Caliber CEB Raptor Report on Smaller Big Game-

Results from 176 grain .338 ER Raptor-CEB. Fired from .338 Win Mag at about 2,900 fps. Whitetail doe taken at about 80 yards broadside, deer facing to the left. Impact on L shoulder blade, about 1/3 the way up from the lower "ball end". Animal dropped at the shot.

Entry shoulder blade was pulverized for about 2" in diameter, 3" entry hole under L shoulder through rib cage, as shown in photo.

NOTE: the left leg was 'butterfly cut' in armpit and held up above back for photo. You can see the neck muscles curving up at far left side of photo for reference.

Lungs were s-h-r-e-d-d-e-d totally- shot went above heart- no damage to it. Exit hole in R side of rib cage identical to entry in appearance, but about 2" diameter. Base continued on and exited R shoulder blade, pulverizing it in a mirror image of L blade. Recovered one petal from far side, against inside of R shoulder blade.

Wadcutter type caliber-size hole in hide on both sides. If it had not been opened up and examined carefully, you would not realize the extent of internal destruction.

Ugly Photo

Oh deer
Is there a more lethal bullet on the market?
I say NAY!

I received some urgent news today, that I need to relay to everyone here, and especially those getting ready to embark on a trip to Zimbabwe in the near future.

It seems lurking about in the bush there could be a new threat to us, a new "Dangerous Game" we need to be aware of. I do not have all the details as of yet, but will report as soon as I gather more information on this threat. I was sent these alarming photos today. Prepare yourselves;





Michael

Those damned Apes !

Zim first, then the rest of the World.

I'll be sending an urgent message to Dan to get those bullet cutting machines working round the clock so we can stock up in readiness for the onslaught.

I'll be specifically looking for this bloke who should be easily recognisable from the Weatherby eyebrow he's about to get !.

Planet of the apes!
Humanities threats have grown... Terminator robots, zombies and now baboons! Need some counter baboon snipers to deal with this threat.

Looks like he is left eye dominant.

Don't tell me this is the new B&M test technician. Probably shoots better than Michael. Sorry, had too.

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Don't tell me this is the new B&M test technician. Probably shoots better than Michael. Sorry, had too.

It is rather shame the gun wasn't loaded.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Don't tell me this is the new B&M test technician. Probably shoots better than Michael. Sorry, had too.

Hey, that is a good thought, new B&M Tech! Looks like a small bore rifle to me, and I damn sure can't shoot for shti with those! Holes are way too small, barrels too skinny! Maybe he can send a resume along with sample targets, hire him on a contract basis to help me get small bore testing done???? Hmmmmmmmm?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by North Fork:
Don't tell me this is the new B&M test technician. Probably shoots better than Michael. Sorry, had too.

Hey, that is a good thought, new B&M Tech! Looks like a small bore rifle to me, and I damn sure can't shoot for shti with those! Holes are way too small, barrels too skinny! Maybe he can send a resume along with sample targets, hire him on a contract basis to help me get small bore testing done???? Hmmmmmmmm?

Would not being a baboon be held against me if I volunteer?