quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I swear RIP and Jim, looks like between the two of you, you could come up with a name for your cartridges that someone like me could understand what in the hell they were? All this 12 something, 49/10 something, all very confusing...... makes me......

Can't you just be simple.. the BLANK Jim, or BLANK RIP.... LOL.........................

Michael

oh heck no...gotta keep you every time we discuss it...

Bummer...noticed just before my post that Ron acquiesced... Definite bummer...what to do to keep things ...

Ya'll Confuse me anyway....... How about this, I just do what you say, and whatever you say is good and if I need to know, then you keep the answers, as my permanent hard drive is nearly full now and much more I might crash......

HEH HEH....

M

What a buff! The stuff dreams are made of.

Keith

Congrats Michael, Keep hammering!

I should have some terminals done by the end of this week, but have been busy getting everything together for an upcoming bear hunt. Let say I have had some "stock" issues.

Until I finalize some pistol results, I thought I share the slug which we will see the terminal effectiveness on a NJ bruin. Fellow member DoubleDown and my brain child, executed by Tom at Accurate Molds

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420 Grain 54 cal custom slug on the right, I will take a flat point all day, every day and twice on Sunday!

420 grains at 1670 fps should do the trick!

No doubt Seasons, that big cast flat nose will make a hole, don't expect to recover the bullet... HEH......

Little report from Sam on a couple of deer:

quote:

Took a young girl hunting today and she shot two deer with a 270 Win with Raptors from the first proto types that won’t stabilize. I had cut the bases down to make it weigh around 100 grs. These were going around 3600 fps. First deer was shot straight thru lungs and it ran maybe 30 yards. Blood was 6 feet high in the trees and 3 foot wide blood trail. Nice little 270 hole on both sides. The other deer was shot thru shoulders and it dropped in its tracks and never moved. Again nice little holes. Blood had shot out the entrance would in a spray. I didn’t clean the deer but asked the father of the girl to take photos of the insides.

Friend of mine here also shot a deer Friday morning with 308 and the 100 ESP Raptors I had loaded for him, point of the shoulder, exited, never took a step..... Just FYI....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ya'll Confuse me anyway....... How about this, I just do what you say, and whatever you say is good and if I need to know, then you keep the answers, as my permanent hard drive is nearly full now and much more I might crash......

HEH HEH....

M

Doc M,
You can do this. Not that hard. Just think this as a mnemonic:

30-06 = 30-bore of 1906: .308-caliber bullet
49-10 = 49-bore of 2010: .500-caliber bullet

To further reinforce, a comparative picture from ammoguide.com visual comparison tool:



Via ammoguide.com algorithm, "estimated case capacities" in grains of water, left to right pictures above:

1. .500 MDM Ultra ... 114.7 grains (what is actual with RP brass?)
2. 49-10 (12.7x68mm) ... 122.9 grains (actual = 131.5 grains with Lapua brass)
3. .50 B&M Alaskan ... 85.5 grains (actual?)
4. .50 B&M Long ... 93.6 grains (actual?)
5. .50 B&M Super Short ... 68.9 grains (actual?)
6. .500 S&W ... 64.8 grains (who cares?)

Got a good report back from the father of the young lady that shot two deer with me Saturday. She was using a 270 Winchester loaded with CEB 100 grain Raptor prototype that I had flat based and lightened. Bullets were going about 3600 fps. This bullet was the first tried in a 270 caliber and were originally 110 grs but did not stablize. This is why I flatbased them. Shots were taken at 69 yards and about 80 yards on two doe whitetail. The first at 69 yards was shot thru the lungs about 6 inches behind the shoulder straight broadside. This deer ran about 30 yards and blood trail was 3 feet wide and there was blood on trees 6 feet high. Upon opening the chest cavity it was found that 4 petals exited the off side in a wide pattern and one petal was found in the heart. Massive tramua inside. The second deer was shot slightly quartering away into the back of shoulder. Thise deer dropped in its tracks and didn't move. Both shoulders were mush and petals had gone thru heart lungs and liver. The bases of both bullets exited.
Mighty happy young lady and she said she really liked those bullets!

Sam

Well currently Sam is in Africa I suppose and we will be waiting on his reports.. He is in camp with my buddy Lou, so hopefully they return safe, Lou being the most dangerous animal in the bush, with a rifle that is............

In the meantime, I have an incredible deer report myself this morning.......

My son Matthew has paid his dues, he has worked on his stand, his food plots, and done his homework, and it paid off big time for him this morning with the taking of his second deer, a very fine 10 point. His shooting was a bit poor however..... a bit low, and mid section. He was shooting a 223 and the 50 gr Raptors at 3200 fps..... One shot, poor one, deer was stone cold in 50 yds or less... This bullet hit something, but I don't know what... Hopefully he can get a better idea a the process area.. Which I will report.....

This was one happy boy when he rolled in to the compound this morning........

Congrats to Matthew. Did he shoot that on your piece down the road?

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Congrats to Matthew. Did he shoot that on your piece down the road?

Yes, he was on the little farm we have about 5 miles from here.....

M

Congratulations to Mathew. Excellent

Congratulations to Matthew, Must be the name that brought him all that luck.



I been getting my loads together and will be putting some stuff together in the coming days. Got an email from Ken the other day and did some testing through PhD bullets.....

Gents-

Yesterday afternoon, I tested 3 of our PHDs – Personal Home Defense lead-free copper pistol bullets- by shooting through 4 layers of heavy denim, to see if the HPs would clog and not expand.

Tested 9mm-90 gr @ 1,350 fps, .40-120 gr @ 1,200 fps, and the .45-150 gr @ 1,200 fps.

Red is 9mm, the small circles identify the blades (one exited the side), with the large circle showing where the Blunt Trauma Base penetrated to. Blue is the .45-150. The .40-120 gave identical performance.

The recovered bullets look the same as the attached photos (# 20 and 98), where the bullets were water tested. However in photo 06 (.40-120 gr) note the addition of denim material which was “punch cut” out, and carried through the main wound channel, remaining stuck to the Blunt Trauma Base™.

After first traveling through 4 layers of heavy denim, the PHDs gave the same penetration and blade spread that we had seen in “bare” gel, with the bases still driving 15 ~ 16” deep.

So… you do not have to ask the bad guy to take his jacket and shirt off first…

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quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
....an email from Ken the other day and did some testing through PhD bullets.....

Gents-

Yesterday afternoon, I tested 3 of our PHDs – Personal Home Defense lead-free copper pistol bullets- by shooting through 4 layers of heavy denim, to see if the HPs would clog and not expand.

Tested 9mm-90 gr @ 1,350 fps, .40-120 gr @ 1,200 fps, and the .45-150 gr @ 1,200 fps.

Red is 9mm, the small circles identify the blades (one exited the side), with the large circle showing where the Blunt Trauma Base penetrated to. Blue is the .45-150. The .40-120 gave identical performance.

The recovered bullets look the same as the attached photos (# 20 and 98), where the bullets were water tested. However in photo 06 (.40-120 gr) note the addition of denim material which was “punch cut” out, and carried through the main wound channel, remaining stuck to the Blunt Trauma Base™.

After first traveling through 4 layers of heavy denim, the PHDs gave the same penetration and blade spread that we had seen in “bare” gel, with the bases still driving 15 ~ 16” deep.

So… you do not have to ask the bad guy to take his jacket and shirt off first…

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ain't that purdee!

Keith

Impressive.
I wonder what that 9mm would do on a hog.

Looks like they have some good potential.

Quick Report just in from Zimbabwe this morning, very little details however, but Sam has a hippo and buffalo in the salt with his 577 NE and some sort of CEB bullets????

Lou has a hippo and big croc in the salt, hippo with ??? Croc with the 225 #13 Raptors from his 416 B&M, reported brains blown completely out. Hippo Brains are also reported as blown completely out, but don't know if that was the 50 B&M or 416 B&M????

Just FYI... As more info is available I will post it....

Now off to the range.........

M

Another Late evening deer report..... Fellow from just down the road reported in just now, 2 more deer drop to the shot with 308 100 gr Raptors at 3100 fps..... I loaded these for him just last week. What did he have to say? "I have never seen anything like that!"..........



Good Night...........

M

Looks like the deer hunting is going very well in SoCar... Congrats to Matthew for the nice buck!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Looks like the deer hunting is going very well in SoCar... Congrats to Matthew for the nice buck!

Cappy, this is very true, the "Raptors" are smiting these creatures right and left, left and right in all manners.

I do have a better report on Matt's big deer, it is actually 11 points according to the "Professional" deer whatever
experts..... But that is not the important part, after a more proper study, the little 50 gr 223 Raptor did in fact
take out one lung completely, thus the shot at more of an angle than Matt first reported. Raking in more than first
thought.

One thought, while this 223 bullet is very effective, and without doubt will do the job, a bad hit that would not hit vitals will not leave you a blood trail, so shot placement even with this bullet is "CRITICAL" to say the least. If given an opportunity, if it were me I would be looking for the head shots myself....... But since I don't do deer, its of little import......

M

Well Good morning Gentlemen!

Its been an extremely busy week between work, school and trying to get some terminals together, and like we all know it is deer season!

Speaking of deer season....
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My plan this past week was to find what both my loads for my 629 and the 1911.

So the 150 CEB's were first up, I was happy to here that power pistol was a top performer in Kens tests, it is my go too powder for my 45.

My standard load for 6.6 grains and a 225 TC bullet gives me 915, and with the 150's being the same length I worked up form 7.8 to 9.0 grains. All loads were more accurate than I could hold. Working up I did not see any real excessive pressure but had some distinct firing pin drag starting at 8.5 going to 9 grains. I am settled at 9 grains of power pistol with gave me an 8 shot average of 1180 out of a Les Baer

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The 629, I went back to the first powder I tested. Longshot, it falls right in between accurate no 7 and 2400. Working up, I was getting 1400 out of the 200 grain bullets and accuracy was impressive. I still need to go above my existing load just to see the threshold of this powder but I feel this may be another good bullet and powder combination. Better than 2400? No clue, I plan on running some 2400 this week and with finally break out the wet pack.

Sorry for the delay guys, testing my loads requires more time, and back and forth to the range can be a hassle!

I think we all need an underground lab!

Seasons.........

I am sure you must have forgotten, but there is some sort of contraption laying on the rear side of that fine deer you shot? Has strings and wheels on it, I figure it must be some sort of hoist for cleaning the deer, or to be used during skinning, or some such purpose........................


At any rate, keep us updated on your handgun work there...............


Michael

I wonder how a cup point with slits would do. Stronger and heavier petals for 4 petals or weaker 6 petal design for Lower sheer velocity. The cup point would aid sheer without a deep hole.

Boomy......

I like the North FOrk "Expanding" CPS... As I had John at NF work on those for the B&Ms in .500 and .474.. All the CPS are expanding, and they work great. Deep Penetration and expansion, not radical expansion, very controlled so as to not compromise penetration. They also seem to hit animals very hard, buffalo take notice when hit with them......

Soon as I can work through some projects I am going to take another look at the North Fork CPS Expanding version, and I keep fussing with John about this... North Fork has a winner with this bullet......

Michael

Yes, I concur that NF has that design all wrapped up. The idea was thinking was more for pistol bullets but I was not clear in my post. The idea was instead of a hole reducing petal weight that a cup point and slits would work but in a diferent way.

I got a full report from my buddy Lou yesterday concerning his hippo and croc, and he also shot a waterbuck as well... All with the 416 B&M and the 225 #13 Raptor I loaded for him, running 2850 or so in his rifle.....

Hippo was 64 yds, side brain shot, bullet exited, taking brains with it....... Dead hippo, yes was on the dirt.....

Crocodile 14 ft 10 inches, brain shot, no brain left, head damned near blown off, we have an excellent taxidermist, he can sort it out.......

Waterbuck, rear raking shot, through the stomach and bullet found on far side shoulder, animal went 40 yards + or - and was found stone cold...........

Lou was absolutely crazy about the 225 Raptor, Andrew says its an excellent plains game bullet, I concur as well........ .416 225 Raptor is a big winner..........

M

Mike, sounds like both Sam and Lou had a big time of it with Andrew !

Please pass on my best wishes to both when your speaking with them.

That 225gn Raptor has obviously proven to be a winner for any soft skinned game, as we thought when testing it on buffalo

Paul.

Great report Michael, Congrats to Sam and Lou look foward to seeing the photo's.

Thought I give a short preview before I get my all my photos and data organized, shot the .429 bullets as well as the the 150 ACP bullets through bone today to say I am impressed is an understatement. The .429 200's gave preditable results, 11 inches of penetraion and the petals stopping at the 3-4 inche mark. The most impressive test was the 150's through a deer shoulder and exited 18 inches of media!, It was towards the end of the day and the wet pack was not as dense but still, very impressive.
Full report to follow.

I have a question on the loading side of CEB's.

Twice I have tested a CEB Raptor 175 grain .338 bullet, (with a plastic tip the bullet weighs 180 grains). In both tests the grouping of the bullets was unexpectedly and unacceptably large.

For example, yesterday, in a three-shot group two bullets were almost touching and a third bullet was a flyer about 3" higher.

Are there special considerations with these reversible Raptor bullets that affects accuracy and group size?

Perhaps the large group sizes result from the shank not stabilizing on the lands of this particular rifle?

The particular rifle tends to shoot 3-shot groups of other bullets (e.g. 185 gn. TTSX, 225 gn. TTSX)between 0.6" and 1.4" all day long, depending on powder charges.

In the meantime, one bullet and load is printing groups of 0.75" (2838fps, 225 grain, .514BC), so it will be making the next trip to Africa in 'rat calibre'.

Tanz,

The ESP Raptor bullets are exceptionally long for their weight plus the balance point of the bullet is further towards the base than much like many of the early VLD/ULD style bullets - meaning they are somewhat nose light and will destabilize easier.

Due to the ESPR design characteristics they desire speed or faster than normal twist rates to properly stabilize; give them both and they provide exceptional long range accuracy and terminal performance.

Here is the information you need to consider:
Barnes
185gr TTSX = 1.349" length
210gr TTSX = 1.473" length
225gr TTSX = 1.547" length
265gr TTSX = 1.783" length
CEB
175gr ESPR = 1.557" length - 12" twist rate
200gr ESPR = 1.695" length - 10" twist rate
225gr ESPR = 1.839" length - 9.5" twist rate

I believe the M70 .338 WinMag that Michael used to test the 175gr ESPR bullets early in their developement comes from the factory with a 10" twist rate which may explain why he had zero stability issues at standard .338 WinMag velocities.

Recommend you check your twist rate and contact CEB by phone or email to discuss your problems.

Thanks, Jim,


On twist, we're fine, as the Tikka is 1 in 10".

My thoughts were on the 'bore-rider' direction since the shank of the bullet is smaller than the bands and only the three bands seem to engage the rifling.

The rear shank, leading to the flat end, is .329" and the front shank, leading to the hollow point is .329". The three bands are .3395-3340". Everything is yellow brass, of course.

I've heard that bore riders can be tricky, though I've never used them.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Thanks, Jim,
I've heard that bore riders can be tricky, though I've never used them.

Speaking of "bore riders" of various make:

No, the CEB bullets are not bore-riders, nor intended to be custom fitted to specific bore and groove diameters,
but rather a design with mass appeal.
The minor diameter of the bullet is a lot smaller than the bore, and does not seal the bore or ride on the surface of the lands.
They are not like GSC "True Driving Band" bullets which try to match the bore and groove diameters of the barrel,
or 0 to +3 microns bigger or some such voodoo.
Gerard stops talking if you try to pin him down on this formula.

But all that preliminary is just to point out another possible accuracy factor:

If it is not twist/bullet length related, it may be throat related.
The CEB ESP Raptor bullets seem to work better if there is not a lot of distance to jump in getting to the lands.
The non-bearing shaft diameter is a lot smaller than the bearing band diameter,
making for wobble room.
Not a problem in a tight throat.
But in a long throat, seating them long enough to be just off the lands is not always possible due to box length and/or the banding layout if you like to crimp.

This may be why I get better accuracy with the 300-grain GSC "True Driving Bands" in a .375 Weatherby type throat, compared to the 230-grain CEB ESP Raptor-Tipped bullet.
The latter is most excellent in the shorter-throated standard .375 H&H.

Just a thought, and I have no idea how Tanz's .338 is throated ...

Alright Gentlemen,

I gonna keep the text portion of this fairly short and let the photos speak for themselves. All my testing was done at 25 yards and all velocity were recorded 10 ft from the muzzle, I didn't have the ability to setup and get actual impact velocity's.

First up was the 200 grain noncons from a a 4" 629, the premise of my test was to see what kind of deformation and or abnormality will happen when the bullet impacts solid bone and not just tissue, I don't consider ribs, at least on deer and pig size animals formidable. I used deer shoulder bones with 3/4 of an inch of wet pack placed in front of the bone, the wet pack was fully saturated for 24 hours prior to the test to maximize constancy. I also test glancing shoulder shots aiming just for the edge of the bone to see if this would cause inconsitent fractures.

2 impacts from the 200 grain, one glancing, one solid shot, Velocity, 1288 19 grains of 2400
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A little variation in the petal dispersion from the glancing shot vs the solid shoulder shot
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This is the recovered bullet from the solid shoulder shot, note the curl to the petals from the impact with bone.
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Here are three bullets recovered after glancing shoulder shots, slight inconsistent breaks but still perform as intented
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This next bullet was shot into a shot leg bone of a deer, same set up with 3/4 inch of wet pack in front of the bone. In the upper left corner you can see a piece of copper which fragmented off

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Petals still dispersed, even after a solid bone hit,the petals traveled about 1 1/2 inches after the impact
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Recovered bullet after leg bone impact
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Next test was the 45 ACP through solid bone, 150's going 1240

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Two shots were fired side by side one impacting bone the other no bone impact, consitent fracture,

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The 150's were not recovered due to my thought that 18 inches of wet pack would catch these bullets, both bases exited the wet pack. The wet pack was not as tight as it was earlier in the day but 18 inches is still extremely impressive.

If I missed any details please let me know, I am impressed by these bullets, even with the moderate velocity, the little 150's out of the ACP are by far the most impressive.

Tanz,
All of the CEB Raptor variants (new name for the BBW#13 bullet design) are bore-riding bullets, designed by CEB for the shank to be slightly under the minimum bore specification for the cartridge and the band diameter to be at spec or very slightly over the maximum groove diameter specification of the cartridge.

I'm on my iPad right now as I'm leaving for a grocery store run. My iPad doesn't open the SAAMI rifle cartridge drawing list hyperlinks so will have to wait until I get back to ID the throat and bore/groove specs for the .338 WinMag chamber.

Ron,
I believe you may be correct regarding a throat issue - especially with the ESP Raptor only having the center three bands without the gap and final fourth bands of the single function Raptors.

Tanz,
Quick question. Didn't you have an earlier chamber issue with your Tika? I just don't recollect what the issue was.

Now I'm off to the grocery store as it's a late pancake breakfast for a grandson and his friends and we need syrup!

Capo-

Yes, good memory. The 338 has a slightly oversize chamber width so that cases expand to about .516-.5165" in front of the belt. I can compensate for this nicely by running 1-2 grains of powder more than a load for a tight chamber. That means that I'll take some 225 TTSX's with 71 grains R-17 for 2838 fps in the next batch to Africa, while our old 338 in TZ was happy with 69 grains R-17.
Here is a picture of some loads with 225 TTSX


The first load was 69 grains R17. Then Nikon scope cranked up 2.5"
Second group of 70.5 R-17 printed exactly above.
Scope cranked 1/2" right and 1/2" down for load at 71.0 grains R17 and 2838fps.
It's a keeper.

Primers, case head and extraction were all fine and normal. Other loads and tests were not visable on this one target.

Seasons44,

That is impressive performance for a 150-grain 45ACP bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tanz,
All of the CEB Raptor variants (new name for the BBW#13 bullet design) are bore-riding bullets, designed by CEB for the shank to be slightly under the minimum bore specification for the cartridge and the band diameter to be at spec or very slightly over the maximum groove diameter specification of the cartridge ...

Ron,
I believe you may be correct regarding a throat issue - especially with the ESP Raptor only having the center three bands without the gap and final fourth bands of the single function Raptors.

Jim,
Are you saying the CEB bullets are "semi-bore-riders"?

Consider the .416 caliber barrel, that is about as standard as you are going to find for any caliber:
I have not found a barrel maker yet who does not claim .416 Groove and .408 Bore diameters,
like McGowen does:



From the 400 Whelen thread:

Another idea, resize the CEB .416/225gr Safari Raptor to .411".
The minor diameter between the bands is 0.394",

(which is still under-bore for the 400 Whelen by a lot
Shilen: .411-groove/.404-bore
McGowen: .412-groove/.402-bore)

So ... just a two-step size down to .411" on the .416"-diameter bands.
Michael458's photo of the .416 bullets, off-the-shelf 225-grainer, experimental 180-grainer:


The ultimate all-purpose bullet for the 400 Whelen: Size this .416/300-grain Safari ESP Raptor down to .411-cal ...


Some other interesting variations: Are these the ones that are supposed to be "bore riders"?


Copper Raptor:

Ron,

From my earlier reading of VLD/ULD bore riding design, a true bore-riding shank is not engraved as it passes through the barrel only the banding (whether a larger single band or multiple smaller bands) is engraved and it is the banding and not the shank that seals the barrel preventing gas from escaping.

So referring to the CEB BBW#13 style of bullet, or the newer sleeker variants, as semi-bore riding design because they are machined to a set of specifications vs the exact internal dimensions of each specific barrel then I'm ok with that. Seems like the GSC and S&H bullets are manufactured in the same manner.

So yep, semi-bore riding works for me.

Very nice shooting Seasons! I'll have to order some of this bullets when I .start reloading for my 45 ACP in early 2014.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Another idea, resize the CEB .416/225gr Safari Raptor to .411".
The minor diameter between the bands is 0.394",

Almost forgot, in one of my discussions with Dan during the design of the .423 and .500 caliber multi-banded MTH bullets, Dan mentioned there was virtually zero downside to having the between-band shank diameter well under the barrel bore diameter as it allows the engraved banding material to be fully displaced within the under bore shank spacing and it does not affect the bullet accuracy. Dan did mention that it also eliminates the manufacturing barrel tolerances should the bullets be used in more than one barrel.