quote:

While the old Barnes solids are completely round, the Woodleigh solids have a bit of a more blunt shape.

That's what I (thought) I noticed with the 320-grain 9.3 solid which Michael tested. That bullet had some amazing straightline penetration! However, the 286-grain bullet with about the same shape didn't fare so well. I'm still scratching my head over that one!
I could understand Michael's reluctance about testing roundnose bullets for practical reasons. They apparently veer so badly they wreck his test box!

quote:

Once again--This group is on the ball! You have taught me well!

M

Thanks, Michael. But with me it's probably like the stopped clock that's right twice a day.

Just curious, MIchael.
Have you ever tested cap and ball revolver projectiles in your medium? I didn't notice it if you did. A growing number of people swear by the .44 caliber soft lead balls as being suitable for deer. At very close range of course.

quote:

That's what I (thought) I noticed with the 320-grain 9.3 solid which Michael tested. That bullet had some amazing straightline penetration! However, the 286-grain bullet with about the same shape didn't fare so well. I'm still scratching my head over that one!
I could understand Michael's reluctance about testing roundnose bullets for practical reasons. They apparently veer so badly they wreck his test box!

This will need some re-testing in order to learn what was happening.

Dave

No, you are not starting a fight or argument. Speaking of the 358 Woodleighs--310 grs. I used to carry them along with my 358 STA when out in the bush. Always had some with "just in case". Back in the old days of straight wet print, they drove deep and straight as well, always driving through a 4 ft box at the time and out. I had those shooting spot on, 280 Swift 1" hi and 250 Hornady 1.5 inches hi, and the 310 Woodleigh Soft spot on all at 100, windage perfect on that Win M70 358 STA I used to take with much of the time. Pick and chose the load needed for the job at hand. Never had the need for the Wood FMJ, but always had it. I think it's like the 9.3 FMJ, a good bullet. Why the 286 is not, but same nose profile??? MY medium is tougher for borderline bullets to be able to penetrate straight, and that is exactly the point I want it at.


Glenn

Not so concerned about the box, it's if the RN escape the box they do lot's of damage to the sound proofing on the walls, the ceilings, the lights and god knows what else because there is no predicting where they will go. Once Sam and I were testing and a RN found it's way behind our 25 yd bench about 10 yds past us! We searched everywhere for it, and walking back to the bench happened to see it in the floor! How? Who knows!

No never had a "Cap & Ball" don't know much about one. I am sure putting a 44 caliber ball in a deer will do ok. Hit them in the right spot I suppose.






Tanz

I don't think more testing is actually going to tell us the "WHY" on the difference of the 286/320 Wood FMJ. They repeat the same performance, or more like behavior. Unstable bullets cannot be predicted. At times the same bullet may veer at 15 inches, and next at 25, or 30, the very essence of instability.



Recently I have found out that some VIPs in Africa have been testing as well. Not being satisfied with with the performance they have been receiving, they have began a test program much like we have been doing. The results they are getting is the same as what we have been getting also. Their test medium is different, stacked dry magazines. In the dry medium penetration is very much limited, as we would expect. Bullet behavior is the same however from what I am being told. In the near future I hope to learn more about this.

Michael

The old FN vs RN is far more than just straight line penetration. Let us not forget the hitting capability of the FN solids. I have seen this first hand many many times and there is an extreme difference between the two and the trauma inflicted. On both elephant and buffalo it is clearly visible, you can see trauma inflicted as the animals take the flat nose solids. Far more so than the RN. In fact I can't ever recall seeing much if any reaction to an animal taking a RN other than "Crap, something stung Me" reaction. Hit'em with the FN-- Different story.

Michael

I get a little lazy when it comes to moving to my outside 100 yd range setup here. Man, chronos, and equipment are all set up on the indoor range, don't have to do anything except go and start shooting. Outside, have to start moving and setting up to get work done there. But, I must get some 100 yd accuracy in with some of our new bullets. 50 is excellent, but lot's of you want to know how 100 is! I do too. I am 99.9% sure of what the results will be, but still gotta have it to record and document!

Should be getting 9.3 and 375 #13s in this week soon. Dan has a fellow in his area that likes the bullets and took the 375s to the 100 yd test this weekend. Here is what Dan had to say about those this morning;

quote:

Trapper shot both of the .375 bullets in his .375 H & H Ruger #1 with better than expected results over the weekend. At 100 yards the first group fired was 1” with both the solid and NonCon and that was with a 9x scope. He shot them using a load right out of a Sierra reloading manual for 300gr bullets using IMR 4064 and got no pressure signs. The NonCon was 100-150fps faster than the solid and the POI was 2” higher at 100 yards. We are going to stretch them out to 250 yards to see how they do just for fun. We will also do some terminal performance testing with them when we get some weather to do it in. I think these may be good bullets to put tips in so we can see the difference in BC out to 600-850 yards

Looks like 100 yd accuracy is just not an issue with these!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
I checked email before 5 AM this morn and did not look at it again. Thanks, er, uh, you are welcome.

Dave Bush,
Them, they were giants, and they knew no better than a slightly flattened RN-FMJ "solid."
They could not "hep it," and were just making lemonaid from the lemons life gave them.
So overall, my response to your begging for toleration of RN solids will be this: The farting sound of a "raspberry."
Please, do better!

RIP:

The only time I have had a chance to use a Woodleigh solid was on a big bull bison down in Kansas several years ago. I was shooting a .404. The first shot was a 400 grain Woodleigh soft, the second and third shots were wtih Woodleigh 400 grain solids. The solids seemed to perform perfectly. I think Michael has proven that the flat nose solids are indeed better. I am just saying I wouldn't quit hunting if all I had were Woodleighs.

AS Michael has admitted the RN steel jacketed solids such as the Woodleigh, do much better in game than what the test media would indicate. Check out the latest issue of African Hunter Magazine for a report on my experiences with the Woodleigh RN solids on elephant shot from my 465 H&H and 470 Nitro doubles.

465H&H

quote:

Let's see what shape the new Barnes solids are before we judge them to quickly. Who knows, maybe they will be shaped like the Woodleighs. However, I do hope that they keep the flat nose bullets for the traditional double rifle calibers.

For those interested a picture of the new Barnes RN solids is already up on the Midway site for 416 at least:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=489478

It sure looks rounded, though not completely circular like ASquare and the old Barnes RN. But Woodleighs they are not. Nor Hornady DG.

I suggest that Midway should ship a few to Michael for testing. He can do that, ducking in case of an errant bullet going to the back of the shooting bench.

It that's what they will look like, I think they are way to pointed, just like the .470 bullets that Pondoro complained about!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
AS Michael has admitted the RN steel jacketed solids such as the Woodleigh, do much better in game than what the test media would indicate. Check out the latest issue of African Hunter Magazine for a report on my experiences with the Woodleigh RN solids on elephant shot from my 465 H&H and 470 Nitro doubles.
465H&H

465HH

Excellent--I don't get that magazine, but can it be seen online perhaps? Perhaps one of the Lurkers out there does get the mag, can make a copy and pdf it to me? Fax?

H--Ain't nobody here don't know about your positive experiences with the Woodleighs! HEH--Common knowledge! As I have used the round nose barnes in my early days as well, and I never lost a buffalo or elephant either. Perhaps it's because both you and I live "Good Clean Lives" and we love our fellow man, and all that nonsense. Or perhaps you and I are just plain old lucky too! There are many cases where there are folks that have not been as lucky as you and I have been. Some are documented no doubt failures of bullets veering off course, there are many many cases not documented, lost animals that we will never know about. Miss? Bullet Failure? Suffice it to say, that the RN solids do in fact behave "Better" in animal tissue than in this test medium, however the same is absolutely true as well with the FN solids! They perform better in animal tissue. Both of these to the tune of 30-35% better based on measured experiences. And, this also seems to correlate with not just my experience alone, but the reports I get from the field on a regular basis as well. Of course that is a basic rule of thumb--there are occurrences in the field that cannot be duplicated or even anticipated in the lab, so we do the best we can.

Tanzan

Go back to the midway comments made on that bullet already. The one chap seems not so pleased, and he is singing the praises of the 350 FN and even the 400 FN--He's a CZ owner as well. But from what he says I don't think he understands that the FN is now discontinued?

M

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
It that's what they will look like, I think they are way to pointed, just like the .470 bullets that Pondoro complained about!

Dave

Can't always tell from the photos, but they do look a little pointy, first thing I noticed as well. Not a good sign at all.

You know, I would not be so aggravated with Barnes if they would continue to offer both lines of bullets. But to discontinue what has proven to be one of the best designs and nose profiles on the market, for a RN is just a disgrace and a slap in the face to performance. Offer both, let the people choose. Some DA wants a RN so it will feed in his cheap ass rifle, fine. Others that need and chose the right bullet for performance it is available to them. But they don't see it that way I suppose, so put me in with drewhenrytnt over on page 128! There are other companies make far better products for us now, that's where my money goes from now on too!

M

Michael:

I agree but I suppose they are thinking they will get blamed if a someone uses a flat nose bullet in a magazine rifle and it fails to feed at a critical moment. I am really, really hoping that they at least keep the flat nose bullets for the double rifle calibers. As you said, there are other good alternatives for magazine rifles, right?

quote:

If that's what they will look like, I think they are way to pointed, just like the .470 bullets that Pondoro complained about!

Yup. But it's always worth a test to document.

quote:

Tanzan

Go back to the midway comments made on that bullet already. The one chap seems not so pleased, and he is singing the praises of the 350 FN and even the 400 FN--He's a CZ owner as well. But from what he says I don't think he understands that the FN is now discontinued?

M

Oh, he understoond that they are discontinued,only too well. He just hadn't come to grips with it, and was hoping that some 'buzz' could help 'that company' keep the FN available as an option. His CZ is my CZ, In fact. I wrote the review from overseas, since I sometimes visit Kahliforniyah.

Also, on the "B" subject, let's look at prices. 416s

The B bullet is $1.14 each.

The W FMJ is $1.52 each

The W Hydro is $3 each

A-Square $2.80 each

Hornady $0.83 each

Nosler $2.43 each on sale $9.11 off per box of 25.

North Fork $2.10 each copper

CEB $1.37 each brass


Michael

quote:

Hornady $0.83 each

yeah, when I run out of 350 FNs, not for a year at least, I expect to have plenty of choices.
From the list you gave I would choose the Hornady, if I could get it to shoot reliably close to 350 expanding bullets. As a lead core bullet it is short enough to be stablized by 16.5" twist.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Tanzan

Go back to the midway comments made on that bullet already. The one chap seems not so pleased, and he is singing the praises of the 350 FN and even the 400 FN--He's a CZ owner as well. But from what he says I don't think he understands that the FN is now discontinued?

M

Oh, he understoond that they are discontinued,only too well. He just hadn't come to grips with it, and was hoping that some 'buzz' could help 'that company' keep the FN available as an option. His CZ is my CZ, In fact. I wrote the review from overseas, since I sometimes visit Kahliforniyah.[/QUOTE]




Tanz, that's a good one--no that's great! Had me going too! LOL

HEH HEH--Big laugh on that one! Good Show!

M

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Hornady $0.83 each

yeah, when I run out of 350 FNs, not for a year at least, I expect to have plenty of choices.
From the list you gave I would choose the Hornady, if I could get it to shoot reliably close to 350 expanding bullets. As a lead core bullet it is short enough to be stablized by 16.5" twist.

CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP--Is there some baby chicks in the room? Cheap cheap cheap!

HEH

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Hornady $0.83 each

yeah, when I run out of 350 FNs, not for a year at least, I expect to have plenty of choices.
From the list you gave I would choose the Hornady, if I could get it to shoot reliably close to 350 expanding bullets. As a lead core bullet it is short enough to be stablized by 16.5" twist.

Hey the very next time you are in the states let me know--I will send you some decent damn bullets--No Charge!

Michael

Michael-

RE African Hunter magazine find Shakari here on AR-his Shakari connection has a link to African Hunter Mag.

sorry but i dont know how to post a link.

SSR

Thanks Cross, will try and look it up. Just have not had time today. BUSY!!!!!

Just got some photos from Dan and the 375s they shot this weekend at 100 yds. This is the 300 CEB BBW #13 Solid and it's matching 270 CEB BBW#13 NonCon HP

Info--They just picked a load out of the sierra book with these. There has been no workups, no load development, nothing. Just pick a load, load it and shoot. Ruger #1.

quote:

His load was 68 grains of 4064 and the velocity was 2520fps with the L01 solid and 2620fps with the L02 HP’s.

Target 01 was with the .375 300gr solid DGBR L01 bullets 3 shots at 100 yards.



Target 02 was with the .375 275gr NonCon DGBR-HP L02 bullets 5 shots at 100 yards.



Target 03 was both together at 50 yards. The three lower left shots touching were the solids and the three upper right were the HP’s. 1” total group size.



I don't think accuracy is going to be an issue with any of these bullets.

Michael

Michael and Cross,

Is this what you're looking for?

http://www.shakariconnection.c...hunter-magazine.html

Cross, the way I post links is to open another window and go to wherever you've stored your page. You've likely placed it in your bookmarks (in Firefox) or your favorites (AOL for example.) This should bring up the web address in your browser. Go to the web address which is showing in your browser. It may be highlighted already, but if not right click your mouse and press Select All. Without moving your cursor away from the browser click Copy. Next come back to your original page (that is, this one), open the Reply window, and right click your mouse and move down to where it says Paste. That should place the web address right onto the reply message window. You can then write any message you want above or below your link, but you have to be careful not to change any characters in the link itself.
This sounds more complicated than it is, but it'll work!

Hope this helps.

I'm curious to see the TNC (tipped non con) vs the paper buffalo with witness cards.

Glenn,

Yes thats the link I was speaking of. And thanks much for the tutorial. Will try it tonight.

SSR

Michael:

I just checked the Midway site. Barnes changed the 9.3 banded solid to a round nose as well, probably cause the work in both the 9.3X74 and the 9.3X62. Maybe they will work better than the lousy 9.3 semi flat nose solids that you and I tested.

quote:

Michael:

I just checked the Midway site. Barnes changed the 9.3 banded solid to a round nose as well, probably cause the work in both the 9.3X74 and the 9.3X62. Maybe they will work better than the lousy 9.3 semi flat nose solids that you and I tested.


Dave

Right you are, Dave. Though there were a few 'anomalies', like the 74" shot, that could use statistical reconfirmation.

More importantly, Barnes has thrown down a gauntlet: (quoting from the Midway product description)
"These bullets have a wider meplat and are designed to penetrate large, dangerous game without deflection, even when striking heavy bone."

Well, that can be easily confirmed or REFUTED. Is there really some kind of elliptical 'wide meplat' that gets the best of both worlds? There were a couple of RN surprises during Michael's year plus of testing. But can those be captured as a principled design, or were they just accidental static against the big picture?
In other words, is BB just blowing smoke?

quote:

I agree but I suppose they are thinking they will get blamed if a someone uses a flat nose bullet in a magazine rifle and it fails to feed at a critical moment. I am really, really hoping that they at least keep the flat nose bullets for the double rifle calibers. As you said, there are other good alternatives for magazine rifles, right?

I do see your point. Barnes may be thinking they'd be liable for selling bullets which failed to feed, even though it may actually be the fault of the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

I just checked the Midway site. Barnes changed the 9.3 banded solid to a round nose as well, probably cause the work in both the 9.3X74 and the 9.3X62. Maybe they will work better than the lousy 9.3 semi flat nose solids that you and I tested.

Dave

That 9.3 bullet from barnes had shaved down meplat to around 47% as I recall. The RN could not do much worse than that one. But I am certain the RN won't do much better. Not to worry, I have a run of 9.3 #13s coming in this week. I had Dan run them at 280 for the solids and 255 for the NonCons. Soon as they arrive I will make a plan to get some in the box at 2 different velocities in the 9.3 B&M to see how they do. I am sure they will be dandy! The other superb 9.3 is the North Fork 286. They tested excellent, dead straight! So........... on barnes, they didn't have a 9.3 to begin with. Now they sure don't.


Tanz

I think things are still confused between flat meplat and rn. I don't think they have their act together yet, and are just carrying over the "wider meplat" from the old adverts. I saw the same. And on the website they had listed the FN solids, wider meplat for straight penetration and so forth---now what will they do on the RN with no meplat?? About all they can legitimately claim is this "the new RN Banded Solid will now feed reliably in your "CHEAP ASS" Dangerous Game Rifles"? Barnes is Blowing alright, blowing smoke up someones ass!

You know what pisses me off most? At the NRA show last year I was at their exhibition, they had some great black long sleeve T Shirts! I think I bought 3-4 of those and really like them. Now what do I do? I suppose I just can't wear those in public now where anyone might see them! OH, wait, I know--At DSC I bought a couple of those EXTREMELY nice North Fork "manly man" shirts! I can wear the barnes T under the North Fork and no one will see the barnes T! That's it!



M

quote:

I think things are still confused between flat meplat and rn. I don't think they have their act together yet, and are just carrying over the "wider meplat" from the old adverts. I saw the same. And on the website they had listed the FN solids, wider meplat for straight penetration and so forth---now what will they do on the RN with no meplat?? About all they can legitimately claim is this "the new RN Banded Solid will now feed reliably in your "CHEAP ASS" Dangerous Game Rifles"? Barnes is Blowing alright, blowing smoke up someones ass!
...

M

I have no doubts that the BB RN will fail, what will be nice to see is documentation. A demonstration that they are blowing smoke. To hold a mirror up to them so that their bullet is in their face.

We want to be fair, of course.
I sent a request to their website to remove doubt and to put out a video showing 7 foot straight penetration thru ballistic gel. If they can do that, they can penetrate a buffalo from behind. If they can't do that, then they need to repent and start offering the FN for the rest of the shooters who have guns that feed FN bullets, which should include any bottleneck cartridge and any properly worked action for the likes of the 458 Lott.

Everyone makes mistakes. Remember Coca Cola back in the 80's? Their Sweeter Coke was a disaster. Even today I cut the Coke Classic (both US 'syrup' and Mexican 'sugar' formula) with 50% soda to lower the sweet taste. The soda-Coke mix grows on you.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
We want to be fair, of course.
I sent a request to their website to remove doubt and to put out a video showing 7 foot straight penetration thru ballistic gel. If they can do that, they can penetrate a buffalo from behind. If they can't do that, then they need to repent and start offering the FN for the rest of the shooters who have guns that feed FN bullets, which should include any bottleneck cartridge and any properly worked action for the likes of the 458 Lott.

Everyone makes mistakes. Remember Coca Cola back in the 80's? Their Sweeter Coke was a disaster. Even today I cut the Coke Classic (both US 'syrup' and Mexican 'sugar' formula) with 50% soda to lower the sweet taste. The soda-Coke mix grows on you.

Tanz

Man, you are on their case! As well you and many should be. I understand from JWP475 that they are literally catching hell from many corners on this decision. I hope that JWP comes on this morning and posts some of his phone conversation with these people. I also understand Mike spoke to them at SCI as well. How about it Mike and JWP, what's the scoop from you two????


Tanz, what if they fake the test? Not sure I trust a bullet company that would betray performance as barnes has done? Today's computer can do anything, hell make a rn drive on for a mile or so thru gel if they wanted.

Michael

quote:

We want to be fair, of course.
I sent a request to their website to remove doubt and to put out a video showing 7 foot straight penetration thru ballistic gel.

Properly calibrated ballistic gelatin at that! And not gelatin in which a BB has penetrated 2 feet!

Barnes has received a lot of negative reponces over thier decission to make there solids round nose instead of flat points
Call Barnes (Barnes has already received a lot of negative backlash) over there decision to replace the flat point solids with round nose solids and complain about there decision to stop producing flat point solids replacing them with round nose solids.

The number is 800-574-9200
Barnes is rethinking there decision and a bit more push will I believe reverse this terrible wrong

quote:

Barnes is rethinking there decision and a bit more push will I believe reverse this terrible wrong

There should be some pretty good news on the Barnes website tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Actually, the 'news' is already on the Barnes website store.
They now list both the flatnose and the RN solid.
E.g., we have product number 33824
338 CAL .338" 250 GR BND SLD FB FLAT NOSE
Per 50
$40.55

and product number 33825
338 CAL .338" 250 GR BND SLD FB ROUND NOSE
Per 50
$40.55

For a season, at least, one will have to order the flat nose directly from Barnes, but Flat Nose are offically continued.

Tanz

OK, do you have real time info? I think it sounds like to me they may just be selling out the remaining stock of FN solids, which I understand that there was about a years worth in stock.

quote:

New round nose solids feature a sleeker design for improved feeding. Flat nose versions still available. Please see below for information and availability.

This from the website under buying solids.

Note--FN versions still available. It does NOT say--FN Versions Will Remain Available, or FN Versions and RN Versions Will be Available.

"Still Available"

I think once the remaining stock is gone--End of FN. Unless of course you have word from on high?

?????

M

I started working this morning, had to load some before going to the range. Needed to sight in a couple of rifles and do some pressure traces on the 458 B&M Super Short.










Oh, AND BY THE WAY--Not sure if anyone noticed my brand new "Lab Attire"??? Now I am somebody! Not exactly sure who just yet, but the name, so nicely embroidered on my "NEW" Lab Attire, tells me a lot!

Let's see, how does that saying go "I make this look Good"--or is it--This New Lab Attire Makes me Look Good? Not sure how that goes, anyway............Could not help myself.

HEH HEH HEH! YIPPIE!!!!!!!

Doc M

OK OK, Maybe I got a little carried away with this, but I figure after days and days of bitching, moaning, groaning about barnes and their stupid antics we could use some "comic" relief....HEH....

We here At B&M MIB take Security of Our Labs Very Serious! Our Techs are not only trained in the art of......well whatever it is they do, but they are also trained for security of the labs as well..........as you can plainly see below;

This is way too much fun!

OK, now in from our "Western" Division Of MIB Labs, some of our Lab techs there have a different....well view of security, let's say;










Ya know, sometimes you just have to "Cowboy Up"!

RIP--Love the New Lab Coats--very nice-thank you very very much I am having a blast with them!

And they look pretty damned spiffy if you ask me!

Good fun boys, just good fun!

Michael

quote:

I think once the remaining stock is gone--End of FN. Unless of course you have word from on high?

?????

M

Here's what I heard,

"Due to popular demand we are going to continue offering the Flat Nose Banded Solids only on our web site. This way customers won’t be confused by having both products on the shelf at your local retailer."

We'll just have to see if it stays, and the market should take care of things.

quote:

Doc M MIB

I love it!



Like MIB's in the movies keep the planet safe from aliens, you keep the planet safe from inferior bullets!

quote:

This New Lab Attire Makes me Look Good?

Er ...YES! Black has a slimmin' effect on y'all older fellas ...