quote:

So officially, is that max brass length 2.250" with trim-to-length of 2.240"?
Or should we consider max brass to be 2.240"?

Sumbuddy who know?

RIP

458 B&M was the second B&M done. Like you said, original specs were 2.295. I thought I had measured my case length, magazine, and standard bullets nose projections, but what I found with 2.295 is that it did not work with many bullets I wanted to work with at the time. So, I shortened it to the point that it worked with all 458 bullets that I had and wanted to work with, that ended up being 2.240, and I made that standard from then on. All the rest of the B&Ms were made to 2.240, except the 50 B&M which was already at 2.250. Today, I trim everything to 2.240 regardless, while you may have a little more leeway with the 458 B&M, still I go to 2.240.

quote:

I just keep any brass made from 300 RUM trimmed to between 2.235" and 2.240" to play it safe.

Exactly! I do the same.

As for the 300 ESP Raptor .458. It is a good bullet, and one of the best of the big bore raptors. The 300 ESP 416 is a good bullet as well. Either of these in the B&Ms only come up around 50 fps short of a flat base bullet seated to take the tip in the magazine. So they are pretty close.

When loaded with the same load as the HP end, the Solid will always be around 100fps slower, regardless of caliber or cartridge. You have increased case capacity with the HP down, and reduced pressures. Most times I recall testing, there was little difference in POI at 50 between the two. When I tested the 300 Raptor in 458 B&M I used 70/RL 7. I did not get pressure data. But velocity was 2580 fps with the HP Tips, and 2510 fps with the Solid. Guessing pressures around 55000 PSI or so with the HP Tipped. Less with the Solid.

Taking the 295 BBW#13 HP LG--Seated deep, using tip in magazine, I get 2710 fps with 73/H-4198.
Just FYI

M

Hey, I have more 18 inch 458 B&Ms than you do! My big gun is 20 inches! LOL........

Ross10 was telling me this weekend that one of his buddies used that .474 caliber 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon on bear in his Capstick. I did not know anyone else in the world had picked up any of these, which I use in the 475 Super Short. Don't know any particulars, no data, nothing more than there were 4 exits on the far side of the bear. That means 3 of the 6 blades exited bear. I asked Ross to come visit and tell us more, maybe he will. I would like to hear more myself.

And, of course we heard from CrossL on the B&M thread last night. Check that out!

Now I really have a full day of BS to work on, so I must get started.

Michael

Michael:

Which of the super shorts do you like best? When you build a super short, is it built on a Winchester super short action?

The bear I told Michael about was shot with my 470 Capstick with a 320 grain super short Non Con. I loaded 87.0 of H322 for just over 3000 fps. The bear was a medium size animal about 175 lbs all shots are at 165 yards from a portable bench. The bear had 4 exit holes and went about 3 yards after being shot. Here is a video of another bear that I shot with the same bullet this spring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...f0Ok_AnDjO6mYHEkeYoA

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Which of the super shorts do you like best? When you build a super short, is it built on a Winchester super short action?

Dave, I swear sometimes I just don't know the answer to which one I really like the best? Every one of them have just blown my mind with how capable they are. I think maybe the 50 B&M SS would end up being my favorite in the end. But the others just are not coming up short at all.

All the Super Shorts are built on Win M70 WSSM actions, control feed.

The 50 and 475 hammered buffalo in Australia, and I don't mean just killed them, we are talking hammered to the dirt. After what I have seen with these two, I would choose them over any 458 Win or 458 Lott, they hit just as hard as anything I have ever done on buffalo with the two bigger guns. Why carry the weight and length.

And now CrossL puts a 325 BBW#13 Solid through the skull of an elephant and gets 6 ft of penetration, with a 458 B&M Super Short!!!!!!!!!

Just confuses me even more as to which one I like best!

OK, here is my answer!

To cover all bases, and make sure I leave nothing out, then I think every home must have One Of Each of them! So there! LOL...................

Ross

I was delighted to hear about you guys using that .474 320BBW#13 NonCon we designed for the Super Short in that Capstick of yours! I did not realize anyone had found it yet besides myself. That is the same bullet Mark David used on those Australian buffalo with the 475 Super Short and it hammered them, we recovered a few and all were far side of buffalo, and most exited. That was at 2300 fps or so.

4 Exits! Excellent, just excellet. This bear in the video looked like lightning struck him. I don't think this one moved again after the shot! Have to watch that again.

350 #13s .510s are leaving headed to you tomorrow, along with some tips. Do take video! I used 110 grs of RL 10X for 3030 fps in my 510 Wells. The A Square is basically the same thing.

Thanks for posting the video for us!
MORE NOW!
LOL

Michael

I have a favorite!
458 SS!
50 SS in close second

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I have a favorite!
458 SS!
50 SS in close second

Boomy

When I laid hands on the first 458 B&M SS, did some shooting, some load data, I came in, and took all the 45/70s I had on the shelve that I had not hunted or done anything with, either sold them, or people built 50 B&M Alaskans out of them. I had no use for a Guide Gun ever again. The 458 SS is the same size and length as a 18 inch guide gun, and 458 SS out performs 45/70 by a wide margin.

How about that bear, by Ross?????? LOL...............

Michael

These bullets driven fast kill fast.
It's amazing to me how these bullets around .2 SD with higher impact velocities over higher SD are stone cold killers. Some animals need deep Deep penetration and a bit heavier but the BBW 13 325 grain solid from a super short did amazing from the super short. I love how the animals just don't seem to be able to run more than 50 yards or just plain drop.

give me a couple of days-the pre-bait is doing great according to reports. took zebra today to freshen baits.

then we will talk about the 458 SS

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:


give me a couple of days-the pre-bait is doing great according to reports. took zebra today to freshen baits.

then we will talk about the 458 SS

Your fan Club Awaits!





I had all intentions today of testing the 350 BBW#13 .510 caliber both in 510 Wells and 51 Alaskan--but alas other duties have kept me from being able to do so. If all goes well I should be able to hammer down in the morning!


My attempts at shedding light on the thread down in Lever Guns has been met with great resistance!
I suppose you can lead them to Water, but you can't make them drink! You can shed light, but you can't make them open their eyes! Offer assistance and help, met with

It's my own fault however, I know better! I know sometimes its a waste of time and energy. One might as well just>>>>> and quit. So I quit! At least down there!

Michael

Michael,I hope you got the check I sent you.I got to get on line just now but it is hit and miss here in SE AK.I am getting satellite but takes a long time here to get it done, as I live far from Ketchikan.Michael have you ever used or done and testing on Kodiak Bonded core bullets made by Alaska Bullet Works?I use these for my 50 Alaskan as like you know there are few .510 bullets to pick from.If I knew what I do now I would just get your 50 Alaskqn B&M,but my gun has cost me enough and I have the brass and dies. when I get the 375 B&M I think I will be useing that all the time,mostly,Kev

Kev

Oh no worries, the check has not shown up yet, but mail is slow it will make it.

I have used and tested some of the Kodiaks, mostly in 45/70 back in the day. Everything I tested was 2 out of 3. 2 good ones, and one not so good!

I just this week got my hands on the NEW 350 gr BBW#13 .510 caliber LG--LG stands for LEVER GUN! Meaning they will work just dandy in your lever gun 51 Alaskan! I was scheduled to test today, but could not get to it, so rescheduled to tomorrow morning. In the 51 Alaskan, mine is a 18 inch stainless Marlin, I am getting 2190 fps with 68/RL 10X and 2190 also with H-4198, but I forgot how much, have to check data. We test this tomorrow, and we will see if it is the NEW GO TO bullet for 51 AK. I think it is!

Your rifle has left the compound and on its way to SSK to be done.

Just FYI
See if you can tune in by Thursday morning, should have results of the 350 .510 done and on by then.

M

Even though it was dry paper that does not show the true nature of the bullets it was cool to see an article on the non cons and Raptors at my local grocery store. I wish they tried some of the solid end of these bullets but that might have been a disaster if he did not have a proper backing to catch them. Glad word to the masses is getting out.

Hi all
I leave tomorrow for a short one week hunt in Mozambique, might get a buff, hippo and a croc..
What to do? My 500 is out of the house having a new barrel, my 458 is having some new sights put on and I have to leave on a supershort notice.. And my 416 Wby is too long (25" barrel is a problem after using 20" barreled rifles now.... )
Only option is to bring the RAT GUN - the 375 Ruger
But will use BBW#13 bullets and non-cons to compensate for this blasfemi... (I know Michael will comment on this )


Ulrik

Ulrik



Holy Smoking Horse Tu*ds!!!!!!!!

Better take a 22 long rifle to back that 375 up I reckon! About the same effect! Hopefully your PH has something of consequence to back up with, or maybe you can just use the PH rifle and take photos with the 375 Ruger?? There was a thread about that, did not read much of it however! LOL...............

Insurance paid up? Everything in order? No man, monkeying with you! I wish you well and hope all goes well.

Put that 375 caliber BBW#13 in the front half, and he will eventually die at some point, just keep shooting until the rifle is empty, load it up, shoot some more, then load up again, shoot all those, and maybe that will equalize for lack of "Caliber"........






Best of luck buddy (Ya Gonna Need it with 375) LOL LOL........ We will await your return, travel safe, shoot straight!

Michael

Ulrik

This should be what you use and not the 375 anything

BUFFALO BUFFALO BUFFALO

Michael knows what I'm talking about!

Man a 350 grain non con out of a short barreled lever action at 2175fps. WOW

Can the bands be moved to the rear say 20 or 30 thou for testing at lower velocity so it breaks more like the higher velocity one for deeper penetration? It seems that when it breaks leaving what looks like a hydro bowl point at 60 ish percent meplat it would penetrate deeper although maybe not do as much damage. Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Can the bands be moved to the rear say 20 or 30 thou for testing at lower velocity so it breaks more like the higher velocity one for deeper penetration? It seems that when it breaks leaving what looks like a hydro bowl point at 60 ish percent meplat it would penetrate deeper although maybe not do as much damage. Any thoughts?

NO, bands are where they are so they can be seated to work through a 51 Alaskan. Nothing can move, or they will NOT work, will be too long. There is not any room to work with at all in that area.

Maybe something for a different bullet to test for.

What you have shown well is that the 50 AK and 50 BMAK 50 SS 475 SS and 458 SS can be capable of killing big critters with these bullets! Bravo!

Boomy

Never seen anything like it! Would have never proclaimed the Super Short capable of what they are doing, and now these .500 and .510 caliber Lever Guns are most certainly enhanced beyond anything they have been capable of in the past.

M

Michael,
Congrats on the .510 Alaskan.
Have finally got to chronograph your 370gr .458 noncon with a max(pun intended)load in my long-throated Browning Lever Action in .450 Marlin.
Velocity was just over 2200 fps (20" bbl) and just over 4000 ft/lbs in energy. Not as effective as a .510 bullet, but a good effort.
Max

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Michael,
Congrats on the .510 Alaskan.
Have finally got to chronograph your 370gr .458 noncon with a max(pun intended)load in my long-throated Browning Lever Action in .450 Marlin.
Velocity was just over 2200 fps (20" bbl) and just over 4000 ft/lbs in energy. Not as effective as a .510 bullet, but a good effort.
Max

Max

2200 is smoking with the 370 #13 HP. That combined with its big brother, the 400 #13 Solid, will make good buffalo medicine out of that gun! You will be surprised at how effective it is! Try it on something, see for yourself.

Excellent

Michael

Hey Michael,

Been away for a while, just busy times, but looks like you been doing alot since I have been gone and it looks great!

Have you done Min. Shear Vel. fot the 350 .510?

I have a sweet spot for the .510 so just probing for a future project, also whats the OAL on the 3550 NON CON

Thanks Matt,

Hi Matt

Good to have you back! No, have not done LVSP on these yet, and not putting a lot of effort into those these days, with the proper cavity, they are all going down to 1600 or so, sometimes a little less, and with a tip, even less than without. I think we pretty much have LVSP sorted out on all the big bores right now. I may get some of the other things out of the way this week, and do that this weekend, maybe on a couple, the newer .500s, 300 and 335, and this 350 .510. 1.021 with no tip, and 1.396 with Talon Tip.

Michael

quote:

350[grain] .510. 1.021" with no tip, and 1.396" with Talon Tip.

Sweet.

One shot

one dead lion----

458 non-con acted like solid---no petals, just straight through---

cat made it 150 - 200 meters--

exghausted--

more later

quote:

458 non-con acted like solid---no petals, just straight through---

Congrats, regardless however.

Michael

Lots of questions but I'll wait for more details. The Safety on the non cons is that they act like an amazing solid if there ever was an issue like this. Is it possible a solid was chambered?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Lots of questions but I'll wait for more details. The Safty on the non cons is that they act like an amazing solid if there ever was an issue like this. Is it possible a solid was chambered?

Kinda wondering the same thing? I can't for the life of me figure out how at 2500 plus it would not shear at any reasonable range? Shear down to at least 1700 or so, or less? Whether a solid got mixed in by mistake, or some sort of fluke and it did not shear for some odd reason, I believe it, no lion could have run 150 yards if something sheared. Something happened?

We will learn when Cross gets a chance. Dead Lion either way I suppose, but want to know what happened regardless.

Michael

Could it also be that the hollowpoint plugged with hair and acted as a solid? This occurs with large hollowpoints in magnum pistol ammunition. Not often, but does occur. Had it happen to me when shooting an elk, wounded by another hunter, with a .44 after tracking it quite a ways. Bullet was recovered on off-side.
Max

Would be good to test on the left overs from the same lot.
A hollow point RN tip may be shear insurance.
Too soon to tell but when shooting cats I want bullets with hats. Pointy, ogive or round hats.

quote:

Would be good to test on the left overs from the same lot.

If we find out it was a NonCon--Absolutely.....

M

Well, while we await further word from CrossL, I ran across another interesting thing, and I always like to post these sort of things when I find them.

quote:

I’ve always known Water Buffalo were tough, but I had no idea just how tough they actually were. The bull took four shots from my .375 H&H using 300 grain Swift A-Frames….with none of the shots producing exit wounds (this surprised me). First shot was in the center of the shoulder, second was behind the shoulder, third shot severed the spine, and fourth shot was in the shoulder as well.

Oh, yes I want a 375 for buffalo..........Again!!!!!!!!!!

Just Me screwing with 375 again.............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
One shot

one dead lion----

458 non-con acted like solid---no petals, just straight through---

cat made it 150 - 200 meters--

exghausted--

more later

Well done on Lion!

Please count all remaining solids and NonCons so as to account for each round fired and remove any doubt as to which round was loaded/fired.

JDSR! (Just Doesn't Sound Right)

Methinks a black marker on loaded solids can be wise move for last second visual confirmation prior to firing. Not sure what happened here but color coded bullets could be wise. Dead lion is a dead lion but this is an anomaly.

quote:

Dead lion is a dead lion but this is an anomaly.

Others have used that same argument but it wasn't acceptable but it seems to be acceptable
to others !!!

I think we need to wait for confirmation
that it wasn't a solid.
.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Methinks a black marker on loaded solids can be wise move for last second visual confirmation prior to firing. Not sure what happened here but color coded bullets could be wise. Dead lion is a dead lion but this is an anomaly.

Boomy,
I'd recommend the black marker be used on the HP NonCons instead because the Talon Tips are black in color. Better yet, use either the Ogive Talon Tip if magazine space permits or the RN Talon Tip if magazine space is at a premimum.

I like expanding bullets with hats like I said that aid in increased impact velocity and shearing but I'm trying to see if that's evenly possible for impacts above say 1,800 1,900 fps to not open up with such a large hollow point. My instinct says solid was used by mistake or a powder charge issue or perhaps a damn twig was hit causing it to keyhole ect.