Michael, the photo of the "shrapnel" in the gel block is one of the greatest I've ever seen! Looks like a veritable umbrella of death!

Makes your 6 shooter into a 30 shooter
Looks good!

Put those in your Taurus Judge and smoke them.
Perfect for either 45 LC or 454 casull.
What do you think the lower limit for impact velocity with petal shear is?
Or what velocity would give a pretty mushroom?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Put those in your Taurus Judge and smoke them.
Perfect for either 45 LC or 454 casull.
What do you think the lower limit for impact velocity with petal shear is?
Or what velocity would give a pretty mushroom?

RIP

CEB has tested LVSP down to 900 fps with this 240 as I recall. I won't be testing LVSP here on this anytime soon, maybe after I return. Correct, good for upper end .45s....... The way these are designed, they are either/or.... Shear or no shear and nothing in between because of the type copper used.

That Taurus won't work up the velocity I don't think for this bullet, but I have in my hands a bullet that might very well serve that purpose, and other defense purposes that I am excited about, and it is a very niffty little 150 gr copper pill! Hopefully I can start today in both 45 acp and 45 Colt with this bullet and see what we can come up with. I have just enough test medium from old boxes to get some test work done with this one too. But that may be over the weekend right now. Today I hope to get up some loads later this afternoon and then test later in the week.... Will also take some photos of this little pill......

quote:

Michael, the photo of the "shrapnel" in the gel block is one of the greatest I've ever seen! Looks like a veritable umbrella of death!

I love the gel block shots. I can see it here in my test medium, and see how everything works and can report it to you..... However, there is nothing like actually seeing it in these gel blocks from CEB. Now you can see what I have been seeing from the beginning........ And what was it Terry WEE WEE said again????? Wee Wee Stupidass! I pray he sees what I said too!

Michael

Hey gang, I am back in Bulawayo tonight flying out thursday for the lovely flight home

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Hey gang, I am back in Bulawayo tonight flying out thursday for the lovely flight home

THAT"S IT???? That is all you gonna Say???? Man, tell us something..... If you can, stories about dead buffalo and bullet penetration, and and and and...........................

Glad all of you guys made it to somewhere....

M

Sorry, I do not what happened to the remainder of the post. Paul shot the buff of a life time on his very first African hunt, quite sure it will hot 40" with probably 18" bosses. Used 458 B&M hit it with a 420 non con on a full frontal shot. He hit low. They tracked it for 2 days being off and on and bumping it. Went to the river and thick brush. He used a solid on the third day and went in front right shoulder and broke off leg. Buff fell down and he hit it lungs and that was it.
I shot a huge tuskless that wanted to smash us. Put her down on full charge under 10 steps away. 500 solid ceb out of the 500 MDM. Bullet went in trunk and just went below brain. Get ready for this, found it up against hip bone. That is right must be over 8' of penetration!! Amazing. Put her straight down, second shot hit her in the skull and blew through spine found on opposite side. We got the charge on video, will get it posted upon return.
Crushed my buff on a full run with 460 non con out of the 500. Went in behind left shoulder, crushed spine putting him on his nose and ended up just short of exiting skin on front of right shoulder. S better than 30" of penetration including a spine! Man I love this weapon and bullets. Most folks astounded at depth of penetration.

Too bad about Paul... I hate that for him... Too low for vitals.. Seen another fellow do that right in front of me one time, but the outcome was not as good for him, that buff was never seen again. At least Paul finally caught his! So that is good! I am very very sure he has learned a lot on this trip, and I
bet pretty good $$, that his next buff won't be so hard!

Man, how about you, Elephant wanted to eat you eh! HEH HEH.... That makes two charging elephants the 500 MDM has handled well. 8 feet of Elephant... 500 gr BBW#13 Solid...... That's its job, that's what it does! We will wait for video and photos... Very Excellent... Buff never had a chance against that big NonCon.... Good Show... Travel Safe, send regards to Paul and all the girls too, hope they all had a great time too..... Just Excellent............

Michael

Hi Brent,

Sounds like an exciting trip. Awaiting your full report upon your return.

As to Paul's shot, it is very, very common for inexperienced Buff hunters, when presented with a frontal chest shot, to shoot low. The heart rides well up into the chest cavity and, depending upon the angle of the Buff's head, a shot passing just below the nose will usually puncture the heart, putting an end to the dance within less than 50 yards. When hit thusly, the non-con will tear-up the vitals. Glad he stuck with his bull and resolved things to claim a good trophy.

Those Zambezi ladies are irascible, for sure, and I've had my adventures with them. Did your bullet strike the spine after passing below the brain? Had that happen to me last year with my 458B&M and the CNS hit put an immediate end to things.

Brent and Paul......

Good to hear from both of you. When you guys return and things slow up a bit, and I get back and get my mess together, we will make a plan for you guys to visit, sit around, drink Apple and Blueberry Pie, and of course tell each other Lies... HEH HEH HEH...........

Lionhunter...
Absolutely true about the frontal buff... And Yes, Paul stuck it out to the end, and sorted it out, many would have given up! Job Well done. Can't wait to see photos......

We also have another B&M guy in the field, Chris and his 50 B&M.. He should be returning maybe end of this week??? We are thinking of him as well the last few days, wondering about his great adventures, and hoping for a safe return from the "Dark Lands"........ HEH...

Off to Roost for me, damn near dark here on the "Right" side........

Michael

Mike,
Got a question. Nikon 1-4x scopes that you are using, Nikon has the African and the Monarch 3's. Are these the same scope, or is one better than the other? Could Nikon be planning on discontinuing the older African and replacing it with the new Monarch 3's?

Let me add a note as a Nikon user:

Nikon's websites are difficult to read in order to predict what they are or are not offering.

If you go to NikonSportoptics you will see the Monarch 3s in all their new alignment, including a 1-4. However, their 30mm tube scopes don't appear but they are offered on their Euro and SouthAfrica websites.

If you go to Nikkonsportoptics, riflescopes, and click on 'see all 167' it will allow you to see the Monach Gold, which are the 30mm scopes, as well as the Monarch 3, which is the updated line of 1" scopes.

It appears that they are redoing their various lines, so that the new 2-8 Monarach compact is now a Monarch 3 2-8. It may also mean that the 5-inch eyerelief scopes are being redone with a slightly longer mounting tube, or at least the Inline 3-9 is supposed to have a 5.3" mounting tube space.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Mike,
Got a question. Nikon 1-4x scopes that you are using, Nikon has the African and the Monarch 3's. Are these the same scope, or is one better than the other? Could Nikon be planning on discontinuing the older African and replacing it with the new Monarch 3's?

Max

1 Inch scopes.... The 1X4 African 1 inch seems to have been discontinued, but in its place is the 1X4 Monarch, which is the exact same scope with the exception the Buffalo is no longer on the windage cap, and it now comes in German #4 and Nikon BDC reticles. The new 1x4s are already out now, any that you see as 1x4 African 1 inch scopes are older inventory, but good just the same. They might have changed the mechanics a bit, I am not 100% sure of this at this moment, but the 1X4 African was a 1/2 MOA adjustment, and I think maybe the new ones are 1/4 MOA adjustment??? Not 100% on that.

I have been playing with a lot of the Nikons over the last year or so. They have one that is designated as 223 something, but it is exactly the same as the 1X4 Monarch/African, except it has a thick cross hair with a black dot in center, I really like this scope and love that reticle, however it has exposed turrets. I bought one, put it on a 50 B&M to see if I could bust it. I could not and shot it quite a bit. But the exposed turret lock kept popping up due to recoil, and I just would not trust that exposed turret on a Dangerous Game rifle in the field. Exact same shape and everything as the 1X4 African/Monarch too. I am sure its the same scope, different reticle and turrets...

I was correct, I just went over to Midway, they have the 1X4 Monarch 3, and in fact have the BDC reticle version on sale for $229.95, in which I just bought two of them..........

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...cope-1-4x-20mm-matte


In Stock Products
Description Price Quantity Total

Nikon MONARCH 3 Rifle Scope 1-4x 20mm BDC Reticle Matte
Product #: 118852
$229.95 2 $459.90
In Stock Summary
In Stock Product Subtotal: $459.90
NRA Round-Up Contribution: $0.10
In Stock Grand Total: $460.00


Michael

Michael,
My Monarch 3 came in and I had ordered it with the German #4 reticle as I've never liked the BDC model. Yeah, I paid the $279 for mine vs the $229.95 of the BDC. If I like it as well as I think, I may have to order another. Or...the new 2-8x for my general go to scope.
Max

Max

Oh no worries pal, I have 10-12 of the 1X4 Africans with German #4 that I paid $279 for as well... I like the BDC reticle, just hoping it leans to the heavy side on these new 1X4s???? For $228.95 I could not resist looking at them! I also have several of those 2X8s and I like those a lot.....

M

Those lighter Raptors could save recoil and scopes. Now that is some good bullet performance that won't make your bank account terminally ill.

Michael

apparently you started a run on them. that scope is now out of stock---

LOL

SSR

I have awfully good luck with a plain old Weaver 1X3 as well. I have two. One is mounted on a 30-30 that I have had for a bunch of years. The optics are great so I bought another for my 450 Marlin. It has stood up to the recoil perfectly.

14.7" Long? Really?

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...cope-1-4x-20mm-matte

Nikon MONARCH 3 Rifle Scope 1-4x 20mm Matte
Product Information:
The Nikon Monarch 3 rifle scope is a low profile, compact scope that is great for use when finding your target quickly is essential to your success. Powered by Nikon Ultra ClearCoat Optical System, the MONARCH 3 reaches unparalleled levels of clarity and light transmission from dusk until dawn. The MONARCH 3 line of scopes are 100% weatherproof and the rugged 1-piece tube will prove to be the most durable and highest performance optic hunters and shooters will top a firearm with.




Technical Information

Tube Diameter: 1"
Adjustment Click Value: 1/4 MOA
Adjustment Type: Click
Exposed Turrets: Capped
Finger Adjustable Turrets: Yes
Turrets Resettable to Zero: Yes
Zero Stop: No
Turret Height: Medium
Fast Focus Eyepiece: Yes
Lens Coating: Fully multi-coated
Warranty: Limited lifetime
Rings Included: No
Sunshade Included: No
Sunshade Length: N/A
Lens Covers Included: Yes
Power Variability: Variable
Min power: 1x
Max power: 4x
Reticle Construction: Wire
Illuminated Reticle: No
Battery Type: N/A
Holdover reticle: No
Reticle Focal Plane Location: 2nd
Parallax Adjustment: Side Focus
Finish: Matte
Water/Fogproof: Yes
Shockproof: Yes
Objective Bell Diameter: N/A
Ocular Bell Diameter: N/A
Eye Relief: 4.0"
Exit Pupil Diameter: 5-20mm
Weight: 12.2 oz.
Max Internal Adjustment:
Windage: 120 MOA
Elevation: 120 MOA

Field of View at 100 Yards:
23.1' @ 1x
92.9' @ 4x

Dimensions, in inches unless otherwise stated :
A: 14.7 10.25"
B: N/A

Reticle:
German #4
Status: Out of Stock, Backorder OK
Date expected in stock: 03/21/2014
FREE SHIPPING
Standard Ground
$279.95

RIP

I don't know who writes those specs, but the 1X4 Nikon is 10.25 inches long.....

M

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...rman-4-reticle-matte

Compare the 1" Nikon to the 30mm-tubed one:
Length: 10.51"
Weight: 16.93 ounces

Thanks,
Another typo found.

The 30mm-tubed Nikon African Monarch at MidwayUSA:

$769.95
Status: Discontinued

I have not ordered any Nikons, just buy them on impulse whenever I see one in a shop.

RIP

I don't always believe their eye relief either... I think its better than 4, might not be much, but I think more than 4.

Yes, and the 30mm is 10.51... I just measured one of mine at 10.25...

M

I hope everyones weekend is starting out well.....

I have been busy, as you will see... Getting ready to leave this coming week, but there were some things I HAD TO KNOW.... Would not and could not wait until I returned.........

It is these little tiny 150 gr CEB 45 caliber handgun bullets.... Driving me insane until I found out what they would and could do.......

My interests were in two cartridges, 45 Colt Revolvers, and of course one of my favorite Camp Rifles, a little tiny Wincheester M94 in 45 Colt, and of course my beloved 45 ACPs.....

As above, I ran the 45 Colt tests in the Winchester M94 and the big Dan Wesson 8 inch gun. Which on the DW, later I want to report about Cylinder Gap... Some interesting data there... But later.. First Terminals......



I used some heavy doses of 2400.. Always liked 2400 in 45 Colt.....





I have to say, I had never run a bullet as fast in the Winchester 94 as this... I figured I could do 2000 fps, but never figured on 2190 fps! Yes, I am probably pushing things, but everything worked easy enough. I only dropped 1 gr of 2400 to do the Dan Wesson tests......... They ejected easy as can be??? One day when I have nothing to do.. HEH HEH... Maybe a strain gage on some of these....

Michael

We did not gain any penetration going from 1631 fps in the DW to 2190 fps in the Winchester, but what we did gain was massive trauma inflicted to the test medium, between 3-4 inch diameter total massive destruction... Wicked.... It was pretty good in the DW, around 2-2.5, but just wicked in the little rifle.

M

Love to see some 45 ACP tests with that 150-grainer,
whenever you get the time.
How fast can you go in a 1911?

I think use of that bullet in the 45 ACP could be

"What would Elmore do?"

And the LVSP of the 150-grainer is? ... Thanks in advance.

Did the baes stay front forward to full penetration?

Wicked! Could make a morgue lethality defense round. No hospital required.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Love to see some 45 ACP tests with that 150-grainer,
whenever you get the time.
How fast can you go in a 1911?



And the LVSP of the 150-grainer is? ... Thanks in advance.

RIP........

Now you are thinking exactly the same as me...... What could I do in 45 ACP with this? I only tried two loads, and the first one out was good enough to work with.........

LVSP from what I am told by CEB, Ken has tested LVSP down to 800 fps now. First run was 1100 fps, now with some tweaking down to 800 fps..... Ken will correct me if I am wrong on this....

Sam... Yes, bases stayed forward...

Trauma compared to other 45 ACP bullets was substantial.... I listed as "Good Trauma", which might not give the bullet true credit. Reason is, I am very used to seeing massive amounts of trauma from these big bore rifles we shoot, so when you look at trauma from a handgun, of any sort or caliber, its sorta... Ho Hum... OK... tore up a little medium.... But what I should be looking at is compared to other 45 acp bullets, and I have, and the trauma inflicted by this 150 gr CEB is "Wicked" compared to other 45 ACP bullets tested.......

One thing I wanted to add is that CEB has tested this 150 in the gel blocks and it passed completely through 16 inch gel blocks and exited. I think the blades exited the gel block as well.......

The boys at CEB are concerned about too much penetration with this, as this is a personal defense bullet. Me, I was worried about not enough, and I am pleased to tell you, penetration is fantastic when compared to other expanding 45 acp bullets.....

Dan, if you are watching, I will expect to take delivery of the first 500 of these when I return from Australia... Consider this my order.........

Michael

Like I hsve said before, a deeper hole, with less "ass".

Keith

It would be bad enough listening to a prosecuting attorney explain your killer state of mind cause you used a hand load to defend your self let alone a bullet like these....
Lets see I would start my defense off by stating "Well Michael says".....

I must say though I would love to have in my carry gun a chamber and mag full of these....

Keith..... This is the bullet we wanted buddy, in 45 acp..... This is it!

Zephyr... Yes, fact is, don't much matter what you use for defense, in some parts of this country one will have to defend oneself after the fact in some serious ways... Thank God I reside in a part of the country that is still free, the great state of South Carolina.... Couple of years ago I had a deputy friend of mine get in an altercation in which he fired 14 rounds into the perp... When asked why he shot him 14 times, he replied he did not have 15...... Truth....

My carry guns will be carrying these in the near future... Along with some other things around the house here as well........... Good for rats and snakes and other unwanted critters I reckon....

Michael

We need some CEB-bulleted 45 ACP load data at the B&M/MIB website for use in our 1911 and Glock pieces.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Keith..... This is the bullet we wanted buddy, in 45 acp..... This is it!


Michael

So when are bulk orders taken?

Keith

These in the 9mm will be interesting. 80 grains?
This could make your 45 ACP a good pig round if the petals can penetrate the "armor" on a hog.
This bullet in a pistol is interesting because now you won't have to shoot someone 5 times before they go down and the lethality zone is widened due to the "Pyramid of destruction" wound path. If the petals penetrate too much for self defense then perhaps 6 petals with a concave base?

Michael,

way back on page 43 I found the following, but I could find the actual details of the test. ( See correction below)

quote:

posted 03 March 2010 21:10 Hide Post
Hi Gerard

Had an excellent test the other day with your 416 caliber 330 gr GSC HV!!!! Did you see? It was one of the tests done this past Saturday I think.

I tested it in one of my 416 B&Ms at around 2500 fps, more velocity would have given more penetration, but is was very good regardless, I would not hesitate to work with such a bullet, good job!

Michael

Did you post the .416 330 GSC tests on the thread, or would you be able to post them now?

Thanks.

UPdate:

Nevermind--I found it on page 40, sorry for the confusion:

quote:

Where are you Gerard, these are yours!

I tested Gerards 330 gr GSC HV's (I think they call them HV). Any way, what we call a NonCon--or Non Conventional Expanding trauma inducing SOB! Some Wicked bullets! Now they weight exactly the same as my 330 gr Brass 416 caliber HP NonCons, so I wanted to test in the 416 B&M for comparison. Gerards bullet is copper. Well it did exactly what it is supposed to do, hit hard, induce great amounts of trauma to target material, shed some petals, copper petals stay within the center of the wound channel as they shear, they do not act like the brass petals shearing just inside target with petals moving away from center. My copper HPs do the same thing if the velocity is high enough. As you can see a petal or so hung on until the end, both bullets were found sideways at the very end of penetration, but stayed on a straight course to just before the end. Penetration was excellent for this type bullet, 16 inches. Very consistent. More velocity would give deeper penetration, and more trauma. Velocity is the key for NoCon bullets, the more the better.

These were also sent by Buffalo, via Denmark! I still have a couple of these left, and while the 416 Remington is set up I most likely will do some more tests this coming week at higher velocity with these, and the brass NonCons!

Gerard, Excellent bullet, these would hammer just about anything one would shoot an expanding bullet with. I am sure folks have shot buffalo with this same bullet with success???? I know all the antelope have been hammered with them! I would use them with extreme confidence, good job, good bullet! They are a little ugly however with that black stuff on them and that ass end! LOL

quote:

So when are bulk orders taken?

Keith

I will be sending an email today and making sure I have 500 of these 150s in the pipe line. When I return I will start loading and working with them in some other areas that I come up short on things like this.... One of those is having a good load/bullet for use in the small 45 Colts, I have an affection for those little 5 shot Taurus revolvers in 45 Colt.... As good as these are in 45 ACP... Then they should fall right in place with the little Taurus for the same purposes. These same bullets in that little Win M94 are just wicked for a camp rifle, or around the house type rifle, so 500 won't really go that far........

Ken has been working with these too in his 454 and getting about the same velocity as I was getting in the Win M94......

quote:

We need some CEB-bulleted 45 ACP load data at the B&M/MIB website for use in our 1911 and Glock pieces.

RIP.... I am very afraid that I have not put nearly as much effort into load data for handguns that I have put into rifle data.... Still being I suppose old school when it comes to handguns, I just use whatever works and has worked for me for 30 years or more... Bullseye and Unique in 45 ACP and Unique and 2400 in 45 Colt.... Since I too am just going off the cuff and no real pressure data to back it up, I am not sure that any real data would be of much use? In the test with the 150s I just used a good dose of Unique. When I get back I will try and investigate some Bullseye as well, which might do better I believe...

Boomy... I don't think they over penetrate, I like them just the way they are currently. I like penetration, and even in this case, I am not changing my mind on the subject of penetration. No such thing as "Over Penetration", not to me.

Tanz... I see you found what you were looking for....

As I mentioned above, my attention to detail does come up some short when it comes to handgun loads and
data. Well, that has to change. I need to place a tiny bit more importance on some of these matters, which I obviously have not in the past.

Last fall I got on a 45 acp kick, and started loading up a lot of bullets that I had been putting away, you know the story, Midway or someone has some on sale, bulk, 500 or so, I would pick those up with other orders and put them away. I had several of these, 185 Golden Saber, 230 Golden Saber, 200 gr Hornady HPs, some 230 ball, and some more things. So I got interested last November and even tested all of these in the terminal box, but my attention to data came up really short, this was for my quick and dirty need to know. So now with yet another need to know, I had to get some data for direct comparison to how these 150s were doing in 45 acp, so I went to work on that last week also. After all, if we don't have direct comparisons, then how does one consider what is enough, and what is not enough? So here is a few to add to the lineup. All from 7 yards, all in the same 5 Inch Kimber.

Starting off with some 185s..........



I found some OLD Silver Tip Loads, these are Factory loads from years ago.......



This 200 Hornady is a good tough bullet........



I have always really liked the Gold Dots, and this one does very well...... One of my favorite in ACP.



230 Saber is just claws and teeth.......



Had some factory Hydros laying around also....



Below you see some very old left over 225 gr lead Alberts bullets. Not sure if anyone would remember these, I had these back in the mid 80s when we were shooting bowling pin matches back in the days... This was a favorite bowling pin bullet as it would hammer those pins back and off the table with serious authority. These are some very old loads, I am so stingy with them, I have not shot any of them in years....




Old reliable 230 Ball........



Always a favorite for the deepest penetration in 45 ACP, 230 Hornady Flat Nose........



And now, for good comparison, back to where we started this and the reason for it..... In comparison
I would say the little 150 did rather well on all counts...... It seems to me, that we see the same exact type of performance in the handgun now, as we were seeing in the rifles with these type bullets.




When I return, I should have some time to invest in looking at these bullets and doing some more work with them.......

Michael