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Don't Start with me!!!!!! LOL  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You guys remember T Wee Weiland talking about "Petals all stay in the wound channel" Everyone knows that! Then the latest CEB article in Handloader, the author used "Dry" paper to test, and could not see the "Petals" move away from Center? Well, those two Monkeys need to come here for some "Education". First, aqueous material is the only true way to test bullets. In any aqueous material the blades ALWAYS move away from center on BBW #13s. Always! Today, one of those blades moved so well away from center, it left the top of the terminal box, hit one of my lights above, busted the hell out of it and made a mess! Don't move away from center, My Ass!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Dry paper may be ok for relative penetration but not wound cavity and petal dispertion. Glad you can shed some "Light" on the subject  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Glad I didn't have to dig through all that paper and glass looking for bullets. You better clean that box good! | |||
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Just a heads up Better remove the target from the election poster or the guys in white suits will come for the man in black.  +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Hi there, new guy here. Love the 250 + pages of bullet testing, thanks for the effort, I've read it over many many times (I need a life eh?) Lots of good info on this site. I too was browsing NF site and saw they list a 300gr FN and wondered if anyone had tested it. I'm sure its quality, I wonder how it would perform at 45/70 velocity. Yes, I'm one of those 45/70 lever guys....  | |||
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Hi Hammell Big Welcome to the Terminal Bullet Performance Thread! Glad to have you! You read the entire 250+ pages of this??? Whew, makes me tired just to think about it! Then again, the work put into just the 250 pages, beyond the reading...... Whew again! And it continues. I hope you have got something out of it, and as you have seen we have done some pretty good 45/70 work along the way. I think in many ways, have improved the 45/70 a bit with some new bullets as well. We will soon find out about the 300 North Fork at 45/70 and other velocities as well. No worries! It's coming................ I really need to put together some things on various cartridges, and load them on the B&M site. I have the data, but the time................. Speaking of 45/70. A month or so ago I told you about the fellow I have been charged with getting a Buffalo Load for in a 45/70 Guide Gun! This fellow finally shot the various ammo I sent to him. He sighted his rifle at 50 yards, as I recommended, and the 400 BBW#13 Solid was center, and of course the two 325 gr loads, BBW#13 Solid and North Fork CPES at higher velocity was about 4 inches higher at 50 yards, as I would expect. Got a note back from the guy stating that his rifle liked the 400 BBW#13s better. He sent targets, and both 325s were high, but 1.5 inch groups for 3 each, both in the same POI! The 400 BBW#13s were same group, about 1.5 inches, but center on target. In his mind he thought the 400s shot better? Well, I am dealing with a green horn from the get go. So I am not even going to try and explain this to him, I am going with the 400 BBW#13 Solids, I know penetration will be there, I know they will hit hard enough to do damage and put the bull in the dirt, but I am going to tell him to not stop shooting! I would have liked to have a little more trauma inflicted with the first shot, but trying to get him there might be an issue, so the 400 BBW#13 Solids it is! He is hunting with Andrew, so I will warn Andrew accordingly and have Andrew take up any slack if he needs to, which Andrew will have his new 500 MDM on the scene, so no doubt, it will handle it! Sometimes..........  Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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TERMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember the new .500s----300 gr BBW#13 HP LG and the 335 BBW#13 HP LG. Tested in the 500 MDM, but the other day I tested in the 50 B&M to see how they would do in my Camo Alaskan 50 B&M. They both are most certainly big bear medicine! Not quite as much penetration or destruction as the same bullet with the 500 MDM at much higher velocity, but still very good and very deadly.   Remember the Round Nose Tips that Dan did for the poor folks that are too cheap to have a decent Winchester M70???? I tested some of these Round Nose Tips in these same .500 caliber bullets. What I found is there was no issue with shearing, or with going off course, so the Round Nose tips are busting up OK--I think they can be better. What I did make note of is that the blades dispersed away from center faster, and penetration of the blades were less than with a "Talon Tip" in both cases. This would lead me to recommend to CEB that they go ahead and put the Hollow Point in this Round Nose tip as well to break up the RN Tip faster, by first weakening the tip itself, and also I think we are getting some hydraulic action going on inside the HP as well, assisting in breakup even faster, which is needed, and well proven through the Big Bore Talon Tips.    You cannot just add a tip to the equation with ANY BULLET and not expect some different terminal performance. You also CANNOT test that in the field and tell or learn much from it. You need both test methods to get to the jest of the matter. Which of course I have been late testing these RN Tips, this is what Dan sent them for to begin with. Test before going to the field with them. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What is the nose plus round tip length? That is, how much needs to extend beyond the case mouth? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Depends on the bullet. These are "Lever Gun" designed, and seat deep for bolt magazine bullets, so it's not an issue. In a .700 nose project bullet, add the RN tip, and they are too long for my Winchesters and B&Ms. I have not looked it it further in other cartridges. Somewhere there was a length of the tip, something like .150 or so??? I run WInchesters, so I have not put a lot of effort into that.  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Oh, and Tanz, I have in my hands the new .510 caliber 350 gr BBW#13 HP LG Bullets. Hopefully today, I will be loading some of these in 510 Wells and also 51 Alaskan. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hopefully you can get two chronos on them for a BC reading, too. -- Just figured out LG-- "not for adding a talon tip" lever gun flat nose. At add least a round tip. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Michael, Don't shoot them all up before you send me some! Sam | |||
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I only have 250, how long do you think that will last HERE????? LOL News on this front, working up a bit of data. Have the 51 Alaskan 18 inch Marlin to 2100 fps with RL 10X and moving still. Just fired my first STARTING LOAD with the 510 Wells. 110/H-322 2913 fps, and 104/RL 10X at 2900 fps even. Not bad for a start. 24 inch barrel. Moving UP. Just FYI. Terminal Tests probably won't be until next week. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I have been piddling around with this new 350 gr .510 caliber BBW#13 LG--The number is DGBR-HP X09LG FYI--You .510 boys are going to want these! 51 Alaskan 18 Inch Marlin I am up to 68/RL 10X for 2188 fps and 65/H-4198 for 2134 fps. These are safe and work without issue in my Marlin Guide Gun, if you blow yours up, it's on you! These do not even give a hint of pressure, and I intend to move UP. No Pressure testing equipment is running here right now, so take this and start 10% lower in your rifle! 510 Wells, big stupid looking Ruger, 12 lbs, 24 inch barrel, totally useless for man or beast! 115/H-322 gives me 3007 fps 110/RL 10X gives me 3030 fps. This is seated deep, using Talon Tip, and works through the magazine. Just FYI Probably terminals next week. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OH--I meant to tell you guys this yesterday, and forgot! Was visiting with Momma for a few minutes yesterday. She was on about something, and I was not paying as much attention to what she was talking about, as I should have been! Well, things degenerated quickly, and she was a little pissed with me for not paying attention to what she had to say! She asked me this, "So what, if I don't talk about bullets, then you don't want to listen to me?" I am a dumbass, even at 53 years old, I still have not learned the proper reply! I replied, "If you were talking about bullets then it would have been a hell of a lot more interesting to me!" Not the right thing to say! Jest of the matter is this, she has decided to have a special shirt made for just me. It will say this across the front and back. "If you can't talk about bullets, then you can't talk to me" Well, sounds like a pretty good idea to me........................ Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Listen to your wife, she is the marriage counselor that will save you time and money with others. And wear that shirt proudly ... until she tells you it is time to take it off.  | |||
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Love the hollow point RN idea! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Michael, I have laughed until my sides hurt!!!!! Great idea for a shirt and you better trademark it in a hurry! Sam | |||
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Damn good thing you married a tough cookie or you would be suffering alot more than that. Thanks for the laugh, been chuckling all day at that one. | |||
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 Be aware of the man with only "one" riffel | |||
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The wife says I "hesitate" giving her a answer. It's probity a direct link to "paying attention" She was just reading this post and said my T'shirt will read "If you can't talk about guns and hunting, don't talk to me". | |||
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Coyote Yep, I would say that is easy in the same category as my issues! Maybe my wife should get some of both styles and quotes done? Probably serve us well in the future! Or worse? LOL......... At least maybe we can use it for an excuse, without having to say a word, just poke our chests out, point to the quote! I have a couple of boxes getting ready for tomorrow, or Tuesday most likely to do these terminals on this 350 gr BBW#13 .510. I took it up yesterday to almost 3100 fps in the 510 Wells, but think for testing I am dropping down to the 110/RL 10X load. In the 510 Alaskan, the Marlin started talking to me yesterday, and told me it did not care much for that bullet approaching 2200 fps. Very much like the .500 B&M Alaskan with the same bullet in .500 at 335 grs, seems it is going to be at or close to top end at 2150 or so. This is where I will test it at. So a couple of different terminals coming up for the 51 boys! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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350 grains at 3000fps is a nice max. It can be slightly slower if tips are added. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Tanz All these loads are tested and used with tips added in the 510 Wells. All are tipped. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Great. The Wells, of course, is a great cartridge and can do more than an AccRel. The Wells--an Mbogo with a belt--and good for 8000-8500 ftlbs, should the shooter and rifle be up to it. That's a lot of ka-thump for an impala and will surely keep their sharp horns at bay. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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12 lbs, 24 inch barrel, beast from hell! Totally useless, with the exception of being a good .510 caliber test gun, which is what it has done its entire life, as it is way too big and stupid to be in the field--I don't mean cartridge, I mean the rifle itself! This is what you get with things like this--just TOO BIG to be useful, and nothing handy or fast about it. In fact, I almost pass out when I have to tote it to the range! LOL  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I got to give you guys something to think about today! I am piddling around on a thread down on the lever guns, I love levers as you all know, but those boys down there they are not much into looking around for better bullets, or new ideas, and some are just plain ignorant. There is this one chap that Boomy and I both tried to explain things to on a 30/30 thread, but he is an ignorant chap and not much one can do. Now he is on a a What Weight Bullet 458 thread that Dave started, which has some pretty savvy boys on, NE450#2 and North Fork to mention, and I joined in as well. I did not recognize this one chap until later, but same one from the 30/30 bullet thread. Here is the jest of it;
I swear, some ignorant chaps running around in the world!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Exactly. We want you to fire these rounds off in a 9lb rifle. 350 gn. at 3000fps is brisk. It kind-of wakes one up. It's handy. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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8-8.5 lbs would be better, 20 inches max barrel, would be more handy! Keep you awake, and keep the snot blown out of your nose as well! LOL........ I think it also helps keeping this stint I have in my heart cleaned out and from clogging up! http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, to save you time and keep a lowwer BP, please use the "IGNORE" buttom. Some people are just hopeless when it comes to learning anything new. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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I'm sitting here at my computer and listening to some nearby shooting ,getting ready for hunting season. A few bangs from handguns , mostly booms from rifles , then one big BOOOMM .Some how I immediately thought of Michael & Friends with their 600NE doubles !  Do I need some professional help ?  | |||
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Some people don't take pride in the best but take pride in how cheap they can be. With the price of components on the rise if I wanted to be cheap I would use a good cast bullet over a soft lead jacketed bullet. Some cast a soft nose with a hard base but that takes some talent and would leave that to the experts. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I think it will take another 5 years for the average PBR guy to consider this new technology. In 20 years maybe Michael will be considered the Elmer Keith of our day. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Good one.  Image of Doc M in a big Stetson hat and smoking a cigar as he rolls about in a heap of bullets ... wearing tee shirt wife had made for him ... Bullet related, I now believe in the CEB ESP Raptor (soft and solid) system all inclusively. I will use it with tip as a ballistic softpoint/expanding bullet: Improves velocity and maybe even accuracy, sure does not hurt. I will also now use it as a solid, reversed with hollow base filled with extra powder. No problems with uniformity of load if you add some extra powder to fill the hollow base. I was slow to catch on to this. Tried a few loads in a 19.5"-barreled .458 B&M. 2.5X scope at 50 yards. My eyes are not what they used to be, for groups. Or my rifle likes heavier bullets. Uniformity of velocity with the hollow base was what was important to me today. When reversed and used as a solid, the ESP needs more powder. Tweeking loads could get POI closer, I am sure. I am just reassured. I once lived in Missouri, so I had to "Show me." Bullets: Ignore the whaling harpoons for now.  Cartridges: Trimmed brass to 2.240" and seated tipped bullet (3.015" COL) to just fit the magazine of the Short Action Winchester M70 reworked by SSK.  Target: Another busy one. 2.5X Leupold scope setting was same for all three loads at 50 yards. 71 degrees F, 9-16-2012:  Rifle: 19.5" is as short as I go on barrel, and it is a 1:10" twist that will help with whaling harpoons when I get around to it. I think as the bullets get heavier and longer my rifle is more accurate. But it does OK with any weight bullet.   BTW, 70 grains Of H4198 is where Doc M started with the 295-grain flatbase, HP brass NonCon, which is a much shorter bullet (295#13 HP), and allows more powder space. 20-inch-barrelled .458 B&M M70: 70gr >>> 2592 fps ... 49,468 psi 74gr >>> 2715 fps ... 56,919 psi 76gr >>> 2765 fps ... 59,932 psi 78gr >>> 2811 fps ... 62,380 psi So, my 70gr velocity with the 300-grain reversed ESP/hollowbase FN solid @ 2578 fps is not far off from his data, especially when you consider my barrel has a faster twist, slightly longer parallel-sided free-bore (custom touch by Brian Alberts, SSK Gunsmith), and is 1/2" shorter than the 20" barrel used for the MIB data above. I have a shorter barrel!!!  Correction: 19.75" barrel, 1/4" shorter than MIB 20" data barrel. | |||
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Great info The 300 grain 458 Raptor projectile in that B&M should be good for all large thin skin game out to 300 yards. Could be great for so many platforms and velocities. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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boom stick, Thanks for the comments, including the one about Elmer Keith of MIB. As Elmer says: "With the lightweight CEB ESP Raptors, that .458 B&M delivers more whomp than a sissy .375 H&H, and with less recoil, and in a shorter and lighter, "handier" package. With the heavier CEB and North Fork bullets it will equal the .458 WinMag, yep, in a handier package again. You horny handed sons of toil will appreciate that when toiling about on safari." BTW, final zero could have the 308.4-grain (average, +/- 0.1 grain) Talon-tipped ESP Raptor hitting 1" high at 50 yards, then the 300.1-grain (+/- 0.1 grain) hollow-based FN solid ESP, at ~ 100 fps greater velocity, would be dead on at 50 yards, in my rifle, with loads shown, if I did not cant the rifle. Of course, finer tuning of velocities and POIs is possible. Lessee, what was the BC for this little jewel of a bullet ... to generate some longer range trajectory ...  | |||
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RIP, What brand of stock is on your rifle? I don't think I've seen that before NRA Benefactor TSRA Life DRSS Brno ZP-149 45-120 NE | |||
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That is the Winchester factory Shadow stock. | |||
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ELeeton, That is an "Ultimate Shadow" stock from CDN, on rec. of Doc M. Cheap and good! Replaced the original tupperware stock with that. Went with the black instead of the redneck camo.   I lied about my barrel length above. It is actually closer to 19.75", but it is still shorter than 20".  The rifle is capable of better accuracy with heavier bullets. I have shown this busy target here before: Might have been a 5X Leupold scope here instead of only 2.5X used with 300-grainer.  Here are some 450-grain bullets that the real Elmer Keith would prefer:  Reminder on .458 B&M brass length. Doc M changed it to 2.240", I do believe. It was originally 2.295" max brass length, as shown in the ammoguide.com drawing. Since the QualCart .458 B&M brass came as 2.235" long, I just keep any brass made from 300 RUM trimmed to between 2.235" and 2.240" to play it safe. So officially, is that max brass length 2.250" with trim-to-length of 2.240"? Or should we consider max brass to be 2.240"? Sumbuddy who know? | |||
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