I was thinking the wildebeest hit was a keyhole, based on previous keyhole shots over the years. It was about 1 1/2" long sideways slit. I assumed the reason for so much penetration was due to the fact that'll it was a 500MDM! Still impressive to have pushed a sideways bullet thru the animal and then nearly blow the back leg off. But it does explain why the animal went so far as I am sure the sideways bullet had no petals left on it when it impacts the wildebeest. The second shot however, dropped him straight down. The first shot had blood coming out his nose, he was dead standing, just wanted him dead so this the econd shot.

Shot multiple impala at Masopos. All straight down of course with most all of the petals existing the far side. Only one had 3 petals exit, the shot was right on both shoulder blades. Shot two impala with one bullet one night. This was a night hunt for cam meat. So I shot out the window, make note not to do that with the 500 again! The Bullet went in and existed the first impala with all 6 petals exiting, then the bullet struck impala number 2 in the neck, both dead in thier tracks.

The nyala I reported about earlier, 40 yard shot uphill, behind from leg entry exit on top of opposite shoulder. All 6 petals exited. This was with a tipped 335 noncons. The nyala dropped in tracks. Bushbuck all petAls exited, straight down.

No eland or zebra. We had a few in our sites but it was thick and after the wildebeest experience I did not want to repeat that.

Not back again until next sept for buff. I am taking a friend and got to get down to the lab this fall to shoot and pick out a weapon to build up.

A theory spawned on the freebore length discussion on another thread regarding CEB BBW's and accuracy. Maybe the long nose bore riding protrusion has added to accuracy. The nose should be in the lands already just waiting for the bands to engage acting as a bullet truing mechanism. Long ogives have a larger bullet jump. Could there be something to this?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
A theory spawned on the freebore length discussion on another thread regarding CEB BBW's and accuracy. Maybe the long nose bore riding protrusion has added to accuracy. The nose should be in the lands already just waiting for the bands to engage acting as a bullet truing mechanism. Long ogives have a larger bullet jump. Could there be something to this?

The short nose bullets designed for lever guns are just as accurate here. Then all the raptors actually have short noses and seated deep, no issues with accuracy if the raptors are light enough.

I doubt the nose length matters much.

But, I don't know everything either.

M

quote:

Shot multiple impala at Masopos. All straight down of course with most all of the petals existing the far side. Only one had 3 petals exit, the shot was right on both shoulder blades. Shot two impala with one bullet one night. This was a night hunt for cam meat. So I shot out the window, make note not to do that with the 500 again! The Bullet went in and existed the first impala with all 6 petals exiting, then the bullet struck impala number 2 in the neck, both dead in thier tracks.

Blades exiting far side of impalas with the 335 BBW#13 .500. No big surprises to me there, but love to hear of this. Impala, deer, nyala, these size animals are very quickly down and done with the explosive effect inside the cavity, and 7 bullets exiting the far side, nothing can take that.

Jump up to zebra and eland, the blades will not exit, but the internal damage is so extensive if they go, they cannot go far.

Brent, next year buff--450 BBW#13 NonCon, and maybe a few 500 BBW#13 Solids. Other option that I had extremely good results with in 475, the North Fork expanding CPS--450s in .500 caliber. Buff can't stand either of those choices.

Make a plan you and your pal come for a visit when you get a chance--would enjoy that myself.

Michael

OK, next, Mark David--475 B&M Super Short--320 BBW#13 NonCon at 2300 fps--.474 caliber.

I would have never dreamed in the beginning that I would declare any of my Super Shorts, Buffalo Rifles and Cartridges! But when I think of bullets--I think of BUFFALO! Everything else falls secondary, to buffalo!

Once again, the test work with the 320 BBW#13 .474 caliber bullet showed me that it has the overall penetration for buffalo, based on this it was time to prove it.




Just in CASE---I had Mark David backing the 320 #13 HP up with the 350 BBW#13 Solid, of which it a superb Solid.




In the beginning, we all watched as the 320 BBW#13 HPs dropped herd reduction and poor genetics cows in the dirt. Very impressive to all. And was the same with Matthew and the 50 Super Short. So we turned both loose on a big bull. Matthews you already seen above.

Mark Davids bull was huge in body size, equal to or larger than any cape buff I had ever taken, and I have taken some big prime capes, in body size. Marks first shot, 320 BBW#13 HP went dead square through both shoulders, and we found it in the hide, far shoulder. Second shot, 350 BBW#13 Solid, far left side rear, exit through far right shoulder, 44 + inches penetration before exit. Third and final round, rear shot, left hip, and no autopsy done so don't know where it went to. Buffalo was dead on it's feet from the first round, but like a good seasoned buffalo shooter, Mark David never quit until it was in the dirt, end of story.











One of these, not sure which come from the bull. Other two from various other buffalo. No solids were recovered.




Mark David also took a fine boar hog with the 320 #13s HPs.

Boar was hidden in the shadows behind some trees. Hard to see. The 1st round busted straight through the tree, zippered the guts out of the boar. Boar hit the road and Mark David make a fantastic and very fast followup, straight up the rear. Boar went another few yards, and Mark finished what he started.





Michael

Another important aspect for the boys and the Super Shorts--I had loaded about 1/2 each of BBW#13s and North Fork CPS--Expanding CPS. Both .500 and .474. The only recovered North Forks were from Matthews big bull, no others were recovered, and both the boys finished half the hunt with all North Forks. As for effectiveness in both 50 B&M Super Short and 475 B&M Super Short, we really could not tell much difference in animal reactions to taking either BBW#13 or North Fork CPS. Must remember, all the CPS that I and North Fork did for all the B&Ms are expanding CPS.

The North Fork CPS did extremely well, produced a lot of trauma and excellent penetration. With either of the Super Shorts, I would not hesitate to hunt buffalo with them.

This is what the .474 North Fork CPS do.




Just FYI

M

Michael:

PM sent.

a question - are North Fork selling their new design FN solid bullets now (a CEB BBW#13 look alike)??? I cannot see them on their webpage?!?!?!!

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
a question - are North Fork selling their new design FN solid bullets now (a CEB BBW#13 look alike)??? I cannot see them on their webpage?!?!?!!

I spoke with John yesterday, did not ask that, but it is my understanding that ALL new North Fork FPS Solids are of the new Nose Profile. I believe they still have remaining stock of the old nose. I think the website has not been updated yet, not sure. Yes, to my understanding they are selling new Nose! And it's good too--it is improved and performance is improved.

M

.474 Caliber BBW#13s and North Forks.

For the most part I worked with the 475 B&M, .474 actual of course. My load out was the 420 BBW#13 NonCon HP at 2280 fps or so, and the 425 North Fork Expanding CPS at 2250 fps, from the 18 inch barrel on the 475.

Bullet performance from both of these bullets was very good. As for the caliber, I could not tell any difference in the 475 B&M from what I have done in the past with 458 B&M. But, there is a difference between .500 and .474 in these cartridges, the edge going to .500 of course.

I had a theory that I did not get to test, neglected, and forgot to do so actually. As we know from above with the 475 B&M Super Short we got extremely good performance on buffalo, even that big bull, from a 320 gr BBW#13 NonCon HP at 2300 fps---I had this same bullet loaded in the 475 B&M at 2600 fps! How much more penetration, and trauma inflicted would 300 extra fps provided with a velocity hungry BBW#13? How much more effective would that have been? Since the bullet was hammering at 2300 fps, I suspect it would have been enhanced quite a bit by that extra 300 fps. With all that was going on, these slipped my mind.

I worked over a few cow buffalo with the 475 B&M with good effect no doubt. One day we ran across what they call a "redskin", no offense to our Native Americans of course! LOL.... It's a breed of wild ox or bovine native, but I don't think they are what you would call scrub bulls. These are the only type of ox or cattle in the area, all of them red. This was a good one, but the main purpose was to collect the meat for the locals, they love them for that purpose, and I was happy to help out of course.

Hit with two 420 BBW#13 NonCon HPs solved the "Meat" gathering issue.






I was itching for a big body bull to put the 475 to work on. Late one evening we ran across this big boy and Paul could contain me no more! LOL............. I think we did recover one of the 420 NonCons, and to our dismay it had NO ENGRAVING on it???? None the less, two 420 BBW#13s solved all this bulls problems in the future. Plus an insurance shot or two, of course.




Bullets looked like this with no engraving. Upon further study this week it is determined that I have a barrel issue on this particular rifle. The rifle has already left here and on it's way to SSK to have the barrel replaced.

Even discovering this, the accuracy of the rifle at 50 yds was fantastic, 3 in a hole, and beyond just this, it had ZERO EFFECT on terminals. The other bullet I recovered was from another big redskin that traveled over 4 feet of redskin--dead straight, a 420 NonCon!




The newest 475 B&M was tested as well, and it did not have any issues with engraving, and engraved the same bullets, from the same loads, same box, just dandy, and that determined there is an issue with that one particular barrel.

From the newest 475 B&M

At the beginning of the hunt our local T O (Traditional Owner) of the property, Henry, told us of a big cheeky Bull that was on his area that had 1 side a long flat sweeping horn, and the other side sweeping but going up at the end! He had seen it a few times now. Sounded like right up my alley, very Non-Typical. Paul had not seen it. Chances of taking something that particular, very low indeed.
So while it was in the back of my mind, I really did not put much faith in actually running across this Bull.

I think we had 2 maybe 3 days of hunting left and damned if we did not run across him! I could not tell, but Paul knew it immediately. He was a bit weary, and now alerted to our presence, standing behind 2-3 small trees, in the shadows, I was having a hard time picking my shot. Finally I turned loose the 425 North Fork CPS on what I thought was his shoulder, he turned and was in some very thick stuff, disappeared before a second shot could be taken.

I ran after, but he had gone only short distance and was like a ghost. Probably only 15 yds or so, but this stuff was thick. I thought he had gone straight, but Paul and I took a trail off to the left thinking we would see some blood. After 25 or so yards, no blood, we returned to the scene, and decided to go straight into the thick stuff. We did not have to look very far, just the other side of some bushes where we first started to discuss things before going off on the trail, less than 10 yds there he was, down. I put a shot into him, no response, he was stone cold. Now, this bugger definitely had intentions of another sort. As soon as he had disappeared from my sight, he had turned around, backed his ass up against the brush and was waiting for us! No doubt in my mind this is what he intended, and if he could have, I am sure he would have tried to bite me! As luck, and the effect of that 425 gr North Fork CPS would have it, he passed on before we got to him! The 425 North Fork had centered his left shoulder, and exited straight across the right shoulder! That shot, he did not last long, much to my good fortune! I thought he was "Magnificent" to say the least! I was ELATED!!!!!!!!!! No, not inflated! HEH..............

quote:

Bullet performance from both of these bullets was very good. As for the caliber, I could not tell any difference in the 475 B&M from what I have done in the past with 458 B&M. But, there is a difference between .500 and .474 in these cartridges, the edge going to .500 of course.

I find that very interesting- I would have expected some increase in effectiveness-

Perhaps at some level 458-475- enough is enough? and you have to go up to .50 to get an increase in effectiveness?


Fabulous old bull-very interesting trophy with those Horns.

Do you have a 9.3 B&M or perhaps a 458 SS with an appropriate length stock on the way for Mercedes? I love my little 458 SS, You could load it to fit her learning curve- If she's going to keep following her Dad into the wild and woolly she needs her own weapon.

Fabulous buff, Doc. Even in the old days the 450s through the 475s were lumped together for killing power, but the 500s brought a noticeable increase in thump.

What is with you and .474 bores anyway? First the Capstick and now the B&M. I just think you're a .500 guy at heart.

Has anyone put the 475 grain .510" non-con WITH the TIP (=485 grains) through some accuracy tests in a bolt action rifle like a Jeffrey, Mbogo, A2, etc?
Are the Tipped non-cons meeting accuracy expections at 100 yards? The tipped bullet is about 1.6"?

I'm trying to figure out if we even need a Raptor? the first question is accuracy and stability of the non-con. Currently I haven't seen these on the website, though Sam has used them so the prototype exists. I would like to get my hands on some by November.

The .500 Raptor shure did a good job. Just ten thou fatter.

quote:

Originally posted by whelenite:
Fabulous buff, Doc. Even in the old days the 450s through the 475s were lumped together for killing power, but the 500s brought a noticeable increase in thump.

What is with you and .474 bores anyway? First the Capstick and now the B&M. I just think you're a .500 guy at heart.

Cross and Whelen,

I have a lot of faith in the 458 B&M, have used it a bit more than the 475 of course. And maybe I have a bad taste in my mouth with .474? Hopefully we sort the issues out with the 475 B&M and I will use it more in the future. But for sure, I have had many a WOE with .474 of any sort.

The one big success, only success thus far, in .474 has been the 475 Super Short. There are zero issues with it in any way.


Tanz

There are no stability issues with flat base solids or noncons, BBW#13s. .510, no raptor. 350 BBW#13 NonCon bands forward is in the works.

M

The Redskin!

Redskin? Big red cow, ox thing! Very weary, tough to hunt, and one is just lucky to get one. I had already been lucky once. Last day of the hunt the boys had two herd reduction cows to sort out, I had shot my big bull and decided that I would not do anymore shooting, and had ended my buffalo hunt on one hell of a good note, which is what I like to do, so I had no intentions of shooting again, unless............

I was along with the boys and Sam that morning when we stopped to take a look at some buffalo off in the distance. While sitting there, damned if off about a 100 yards or so was the biggest, oldest, redskin in all of Australia. We were sure he has spotted us, looking right at us?




We watched for a long time, Paul was getting rather excited, but did not push, Sam made no move to do anything either. Then the crazy bugger started coming closer to us!!!! Now this was getting to be a bit too much for me! After a bit, I decided to put my best Cherokee Indian stalk on him and see how the cards laid out!

So off I go, low crouch to some 4 ft high brush between me and the redskin! I make it to the brush, and ease my head up after a bit, and can see him standing in the shadows more or less facing me. Still not in a good position, I needed to move off to my left and get a little closer! Being part Indian, 1/16 th or so, this was not very difficult for me to accomplish-- So I put in my best effort, some crawling involved, slow and sneaky like, I made it over to what I thought might be a better position. Slowly poking my head up I could see he was still there, but now at a bit of an angle, I was looking at his right side, angled to me. Below the brush I got the 475 B&M into my shoulder and very slowly raised it and myself just above the bushes and got the cross hairs of the 1X4 Nikon on him, just behind his right shoulder and turned loose a 420 BBW#13 NonCon. At the hit he moved to my right, I raised up and put another quickly into him right above the first shot, this one being broadside. He then moved to the other side of some brush, more or less out of my sight, I took off after him, and Paul stepped out and gave him a hit to the shoulder, down and out! While I did not mind that at all, coming from Paul, and I figured it was the 500 MDM anyway, so kept everything in the family so to speak! Then I looked up and Paul had used that damned double barreled monstrosity of Sams to do that! THEN I WAS PISSED! LOL..... I gave them both some hell over that! Turns out, both my 420 NonCons had busted him through the lungs, he was not going any further.




The BBW#13s show you clearly the angle at which your shot was. They cut nice round holes, like a wadcutter! My first shot, for sure on the angle I thought it was. Rolling the redskin over, I found a lump on the far left quarter.









Figured that 420 BBW#13 NonCon had traveled close to 4 feet before coming to a rest there, and you can see what it went through at that angle to arrive there. And, by the way, it did not have even a hint of engraving on it. Self Stabilization? Reckon so!

We dug around in the shoulder for that 535 .510 that Paul fired. Bone was splintered, busted, broken all to hell. Big chunks of bone had been busted off, size of ping pong balls! What a mess. We found that bullet inside the chest cavity, even after busting all that heavy bone!



That was an OLD REDSKIN. Probably would not have survived another season, and on his last legs. It was a good way to really end my part of the hunt down under.

Michael

After all the redskin doings, we found ourselves back in camp with the cape and head. We still had the afternoon hunt, and the boys still had two cows to sort out!

It was decided that I would NOT GO OUT that afternoon. Couple of reasons for that, one of course, I had ended my part of the shooting on a good note, but the biggest reason was the boys decided that Dad should not be along, as they might find something out there that would tempt me beyond control. So they pretty much elected me OUT on the afternoon hunt!!!!! LOL, ok.

They were probably very correct in doing this. They were successful and completed their mission that afternoon. It was late when they returned, and they returned with photos of THIS




They were very correct in leaving me behind--I could not have resisted battle with this one!

Michael

Oh it was so funny to see Michael's reaction when he saw Paul was backing him up with my 500NE double rifle!!!! Paul was pretty tickled too after using my peep sight. Got the whole Indian stalk and shooting on video too. Some day I will see if I can post it for all to see. That 500 rolled Mr. redskin even if he was dead on his feet. Michael had made two really good shots.

The big bull the last evening tempted me too and I was trying to figure out if I had any credit left with Paul and he was saying "Oh that's a young bull we need to leave for a few more years" I was thinking man I could have some fun with Michael driving up the last evening with a bull like that in the truck. Probably good that I didn't because Michael was still pissed about the double backup on the redskin.


Sam

In your testing of the Tipped NCs have you ever found the tips in the ballistic gel, or what ever medium that you use for penetration testing?

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
In your testing of the Tipped NCs have you ever found the tips in the ballistic gel, or what ever medium that you use for penetration testing?

Zeph

Yes, many times. Of late tiny pieces. New big bore tips go all to hell on contact, which is perfect. They don't stay on long enough to influence the terminal path of the bullet. Through the test work we were able to perfect the tips. The first big bore tips were causing many issues, being larger, they would not break up in time before influencing the terminal path of the bullet, causing instability during terminals, poor shear, higher shear velocity, and in some cases causing the bullet to actually go off course. We solved all that with the big bore tips by adding a simple little hollow point that goes all the way into the stud through the center. This weakens the tip, but I also believe that it introduces hydraulics into the equation busting the tip all to hell, and has actually lowered LVSP--Low Velocity Shear Point. Therefore also improving shear of the big bore BBW#13 NonCons.

M

Doc M,

You seem to be inspiring a lot of people

http://forums.accuratereloadin...581047871#2581047871

Regards

A Copy of Lionhunters report from hunting reports upstairs.


LionHunter
one of us
Picture of LionHunter

Posted Aug 19, 2012 1:42 PM Hide Post
Back from Zim less than 48 hours and still in recovery mode. But here's some brief info:

PH Al Shearing went ga-ga when I pulled my .458B&M rifle from its' bag to zero. He and the Appie used words like "beautiful" and "so compact". It got better when I put two shots into MOA on target. SIL was shooting a Win Mdl 70 in .416Rem - same as Al carries - and did similar on target. I explained the CEB bullets, as Al had not seen them but had heard some about them. To say enthusiasm was high would be an understatement. The beautiful word was used again on day one - mine is a SS 20" bbl with OEM brown laminate stock modified for proper LOP by Brian at SSK when he built it for me. There is a pic of Michael458's similar on his B&M website.

Day 1 - tracked Buff herd in the morning, let them settle and came back to them in the afternoon, SIL takes a frontal chest facing heart shot with a BBW#13 NonCon at 30 yards while buff is feeding, blows huge hole through buff heart (petals at work here) and lodges in the intestine, buff runs 20 yards and folds up, insurance shot paid, recovered original bullet during butchering, no deformation and all petals expended (none recovered).

Day 4 - Locate Ele herd digging for water in riverbed at late afternoon, Identify two tusked cows eligible for ration quota, wait for them to come out of the riverbed into the bush and move into 15 yards range, large tusked cow candidate turns her head towards us and I take a frontal brain shot as she raises her head, she crumples ass end first as I re-load while watching her reaction, PH says you brained her but I see her raise her head after she goes down, can't get insurance due to brush, herd reacts and we begin to back away as I re-charge my magazine, now dark when herd leaves and I put in two insurance shots, take the tail and some quick pics and leave to return in a.m. with road and skinning crew. Before butchering I let Al put 2 NonCons into the top of her head and the Appie put 1 solid into her neck spine, recover one NonCon with perfect formation (other is pass through), examination shows my kill shot passed below the brain striking the spinal cord which resulted in the CNS reaction paralyzing her from the neck down and accounts for her raising her head after the shot, original bullet not recovered but believed to be lodged in the spinal column. As this was a ration quota, every part immediately goes to the government camp so no further examination can be done; hopefully the Appie can reclaim the skull for dissection and possible bullet recovery at a later time.

To say everyone was impressed with the B&M rifle, cartridge and BBW#13 bullet would be an extreme understatement. After shooting it, Al commented on how surprised he was at the light recoil level of the short rifle. This was my second Ele taken with the BBW#13 solid - first was last season from my .458Lott while awaiting delivery of my B&M.

SIL tried for a Hippo and Zebra in Chewore South but no shooters were found, so we moved to Chewore North and spent the final 2.5 days hunting a bull Hippo on the Zambezi, again with no luck. The bull Hippo on the river just get hammered all season long.

Both kill shots are recorded by video cameraman. 15 BBW#13 solids and 11 NonCons in .416Rem were given to PH Al Shearing when we departed. He promised to report on their performance as used.

Looks like I should have posted this as a new hunt report, so I will make a reference post to it.


Mike
______________
SCI Life
NRA Life
Sables Life
Mzuri
IPHA

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:
Doc M,

You seem to be inspiring a lot of people

http://forums.accuratereloadin...581047871#2581047871

Regards

Esskay

Excellent, people should test and find out for themselves what their bullets are doing. One really can't rely these days on the hype of major manufacturers!

Michael

Michael:

Is there a premium bullet from Swift, Nosler, Barnes (not the round nose but the TSXs and flat nose solids), Woodleigh, or North Fork that you don't trust. We we are awash is superb bullets including the CEB flat nose solid.

Seems to me the testing is over except for the new ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Is there a premium bullet from Swift, Nosler, Barnes (not the round nose but the TSXs and flat nose solids), Woodleigh, or North Fork that you don't trust. We we are awash is superb bullets including the CEB flat nose solid.

Seems to me the testing is over except for the new ones.

Dave

Swifts--Superb Conventional Bullet.

Nosler, not so good.

Barnes, TSX remains conventional, but wants to be a NonCon, since the banded versions, TSX are superb bullets, and perhaps the beginning of NonConventional? The banded flat nose Barnes Solid, excellent bullet, has the right meplat size, excellent nose profile, and I have used them with great success on buffalo, elephant, and hippo. Trust Barnes? Not the new Barnes--Traitorous Bastards to Performance, and then LIE about it all the way! Trust? Absolutely NOT. Todays Barnes, is not Yesterdays Barnes!

Woodleigh--Excellent bullets, some of them. I have used many many Woodleigh Softs in the field with great success, but you have to know what each Woodleighs extremes are. Not all are created equal, and have to know those limitations. If you don't know the Woodleigh limitations then it's your fault if you choose the wrong one for the job. Some are very soft, some are much more up to larger missions, don't exceed the velocity limitations and they are great. I have purposely chose certain Woodleighs for particular missions in the past, some hard some soft missions, and I felt like at the time, Woodleigh was the best choice, for that job. And they worked great. The Woodleigh Hydro we have been talking about, excellent bullet, and I would consider it a NonCon in the end. It is a CPS regardless what some say. It's the ugliest bullet I have ever seen, but it's performance is good and does as it was intended. It is a deep penetration bullet, but not as deep as a traditional solid, North Fork or BBW#13.

North Fork! One of the best. Trust? Yes. I know those guys well, their interests are the same as ours, and they understand what is required in our big bore world. They listen, they pay attention to the needs of big bore shooters, and they won't sacrifice performance or quality, for volume sales. For Big Bore Shooters, Reputation is everything in the end. We are a small percentage of the overall market, but we do the biggest things and have needs that deer hunters do not. North Fork listens, North Fork responds. Consistency, yes. Today if I were to choose a conventional bullet, it would be the North Fork Premium Bonded above all others. I favor the expanding CPS bullet that I worked with North Fork on in my .500s and .474s, they really proved themselves on buffalo a couple of weeks ago. I consider them NonCons as well, although they certainly maintain some conventional behaviors.

I said this once, and still believe it;

There are no bad bullets out there among First Class Bullet Manufacturers! Through ignorance, we make poor choices as hunters sometimes. For every bullet there is a mission where it's performance can be superb, it's up to us as hunters to make the right choice, for our mission at hand. If we make a wrong choice, it's not the bullets fault, it's our fault for remaining ignorant! I do my best to not be ignorant, and make the right choices.

Yes, there is little test work to be done as I see it, new bullets, changes, or attempts to improve. That is about the jest of it. I see this thread going more in the way of field work now, with bullets we have already worked with, and proven. Testimonials, like Lionhunter, mine, Sams, and all others as well.

Good thoughts Dave!

Michael

Michael, congrats on reaching 250 PAGES, for this thread.

This is the best long running thread on AR. Subject, testing, and info wise. Keep up the great work.

Keith

quote:

I let Al put 2 NonCons into the top of her head and the Appie put 1 solid into her neck spine, recover one NonCon with perfect formation (other is pass through),

So two non cons fired into skull with one being a pass through? Maybe not ideal for elephant skull but that sounds impressive as far as penetration. What weight 458 Non Con?

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael, congrats on reaching 250 PAGES, for this thread.

This is the best long running thread on AR. Subject, testing, and info wise. Keep up the great work.

Keith

Thanks Keith--250 pages--Never would have thought such. It's been a great journey for sure, much has been learned. Hopefully new discoveries right around the next.............post? LOL........

quote:

So two non cons fired into skull with one being a pass through? Maybe not ideal for elephant skull but that sounds impressive as far as penetration. What weight 458 Non Con?

Yes, I think Mike is going to have more to say on much of these matters during the week coming. Mike was shooting that 420 BBW#13 NonCon and 450 BBW#13 Solid.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

I let Al put 2 NonCons into the top of her head and the Appie put 1 solid into her neck spine, recover one NonCon with perfect formation (other is pass through),

So two non cons fired into skull with one being a pass through? Maybe not ideal for elephant skull but that sounds impressive as far as penetration. What weight 458 Non Con?

Yes! Pass through should be a consideration, IMO, whenever the big bore BBW#13s are used. These things penetrate like nothing I've ever used, and while not all rounds will be pass throughs, a certain percentage certainly will be. As you know, there are many variables on each shot which directly influence the degree of penetration, but that some of these bullets are going to travel through the target is a fact and should always be kept in mind before pulling the trigger. The old adage of "know your background" most certainly applies.

Thanks Lion Hunter.
Can you comment more about the Non Cons and the elephant skull damage/penetration. Seems that 420 grain Non Con could be an all around bullet for DG.

Because this was a ration quota, all parts go to the government game camp. Consequently we were unable to dissect the skull/spine and only a simple cursory visual inspection could be made.

As to the use of NonCons on Ele, I believe, based on their use and penetration on Buff, that they will work on Ele, however, without extensive testing on Ele carcass, I would NEVER recommend their use. I can attest, based upon the use of the BBW#13 solid on two Ele, that these work very well, and until much further testing, the solids are what must be used on Ele from a safety standpoint. After all, there are many more lives at risk on an Ele stalk than just the shooter; 6 other people in this case.

While the penetration of the BBW#13 NonCons is in fact many ways incredible to say the least, it should not and never should be used for elephant.

In everything but a dead on rear shot, a larger BBW#13 NonCon is great on buffalo. Still very iffy from dead south on a north bound buff.

Hippo! I would use a BBW#13 NonCon on broadside hippo--on the dirt. Brain shot hippo, easy. If hippo on the dirt, I would follow with solids thereafter if needed.

Elephant! BBW#13 SOlids or North Fork Solids.

Sam and I have talked much about this subject, a NonCon on side brain in particular. Using any of the 458-510 proper BBW#13 NonCons we both believe you could do it, especially on a medium sized bull in that size range. I don't recommend that by any stretch--one of those Do what I say--Not what I might do--kinda things. We spoke about it just this week in fact. But neither would recommend such, it's a conversation we have from time to time. One day we might just find out, but not today! LOL...............

Solids Solids Solids--For Elephant, so no one gets any ideas!

Michael

Michael said:

quote:

Solids Solids Solids--For Elephant, so no one gets any ideas!

465H&H

Good Morning Guys and Gals!

I would like to talk about 9.3 caliber and 375 caliber as it pertains to..........Buffalo!

I DO NOT like 375 caliber, anything! No secrets there with me. Has nothing to do with the actual caliber or cartridges, but everything to do with it being "Common". I get sick of hearing that while 375 is the minimum caliber for Africa, therefore it must be the best all around! I don't buy that crap and don't abide by it. Every common green horn takes a 375 something or other because of this, all around crap that is spread. Therefore when I decided to do a "Medium" bore B&M, it was not 375 caliber, but 9.3 caliber just because it was anything but 375. 9.3 is no better than 375 as far as things go. I used for the first time in my life a 9.3 B&M in April in South Africa for "Plains Game", zebra, wildebeast, impala, hartebeast and such. Using a CEB 210 ESP Raptor, I was very impressed with it's performance on those animals. Most of which dropped to the shot, with the exception of zebras, which I took 3 zebras on that one trip. 375 would have done just as good a job, on that sort of mission. I don't dispute that at all.

But.......and it's a BIG BUT--Now we move to Buffalo! Neither 9.3 nor 375 is a proper caliber for buffalo! End of Story! Oh, yes, they will kill buffalo if you use the very best of buffalo bullets, and you have the very best of shot placement. But don't expect either of these mediums to "Flatten" buffalo, ain't gonna happen with common shots, and not CNC shots. Hell, can kill them with a 223 with the right bullet, eventually! Buffalo--Bigger Is Better!

I took a 9.3 B&M to Australia, just to see how it would do on buffalo first hand, my own self. As it worked out it was a great thing that I had made this plan in advance and had the 9.3 on the Australian Firearms License.

A couple of weeks before leaving I got contact from our own Kebco. Kebco was in Australia with some sort of "Super Duper Whiz Bang 375 Cartridge" made for VC Double Rifles. Kebco used a .375 275 BBW#13 NonCon for 15 buffalo in Australia, herd reduction. In speaking with Kebco he was a little disappointed in a couple of things, main thing was that the blades of the 375s were not making it through the shoulders of buffalo. Well, I am not sure, but I might have said "Duhhh" it's a 375! If I did, I am sure Kebco forgave me, if I didn't, I am sure I thought it!

Not considering either a real buffalo caliber I really had not put much thought into the blades on those two calibers, and considered buffalo in the equation! I knew already that I had no troubles with the blades on zebra or wildebeast with the 9.3, and found blades in the chest cavity from shoulder shots on both. Hell on hartebeast blades were found in the far chest cavity wall. But, there is a hell of a difference in these thin skinned critters, and buffalo!

After speaking to Dan, he came up with the idea of making a 3 blade bullet instead of the 6 blades. This would make the blades much larger, and give them a better chance to get through the heavy hide and muscle tissue of buffalo. It was quickly decided to give it a go, Dan made up enough for me to load and take with my 9.3 B&M to see if it would work. Time was short, so by the time I received them, got them loaded, and fired a few to test POI, we were on the plane to Australia, and no time to test here for terminals!

I carried the 9.3 B&M for a few Days at the beginning of the hunt, and shot a couple of medium sized cows with it and the new 3 blade bullet. I was NOT impressed with 9.3 caliber even on those cows, and even with probably the best 9.3 buffalo bullet ever made, a 255 BBW#13 NonCon, 3 blade at 2600 fps. Impacts at far less than 50 yards. Sometimes tipped too, so impact velocity was up on first rounds. Buffalo were not very impressed either. Sure, it killed them, stone cold dead! But it did not flatten them. Of course, my boys were shooting these same cows with the 50 B&M Super Short, and the 475 B&M Super Short, and buffalo were being flattened, knocked to their feet, and turning flips at the first shot! So, the little 9.3 had a lot to live up to, and to compare to, and it lost as far as I am concerned. We did take apart an animal and the 3 blades did in fact go through the shoulders of these cow buffalo.

Well, that said and done, we still needed to do an actual test to understand how and what the blades were in fact doing. Shooting a buffalo does not give you a tremendous amount of information, yes it killed it, yes I recovered the bullet on the far shoulder, and yes the 3 blades made it through the shoulder. That's about it. Now to understand how, what, and how much?

Now I had tested these same 6 blade 255 9.3s several times already. But I wanted a direct comparison with the new 9.3 3 blade bullet, so I re-tested everything, and paid very close attention to blade recovery.

Here is what I found;



The 6 blade version the blades are thin, no doubt about it. So much so that in most cases they start to bend in the middle, and in many cases actually break in the middle. Now, either breaking, or bending, this is not conducive to the "slicing" effect they need for penetration. Blades of any NonCons are not large enough to bully their way through this test medium. Blades from the big bore NonCons penetrate deeper than any small bore handguns up to 38 caliber, and penetrate deeper than some 45 acp expanding bullets, they are not big enough to do that by weight or size alone, therefore they actually "slice" and cut any test medium, giving the blades the penetration they get. Bending is not conducive to slicing. Nor breaking in half reducing size considerably. While this is ok and works with thin skinned game, at least up to zebra size, it's another story with buffalo.

How did the 3 blades do?




Blades are for sure bigger! They stay intact, and they do in fact penetrate deeper. You see a 2 inch difference in the blade penetration. While you may not consider that very much, it is in fact rather substantial in THIS TEST MEDIUM. And I believe can easy be the difference that can get some if not all through the shoulders of buffalo. Big buffalo bull? A challenge for any bullet. I won't make promises on that. Remaining bullet--Yes absolutely, it will.







What do I recommend? If you are going to hunt buffalo, start at 416 and work your way UP! If you are a little girl get yourself a 9.3 or 375 for buffalo. If you are a "Sissy Boy", just go hunt some squirrels with your 22lr.





Michael

quote:

I DO NOT like 375 caliber, anything! No secrets there with me. Has nothing to do with the actual caliber or cartridges, but everything to do with it being "Common". I get sick of hearing that while 375 is the minimum caliber for Africa, therefore it must be the best all around! I don't buy that crap and don't abide by it. Every common green horn takes a 375 something or other because of this, all around crap that is spread.

That is direct and to the point, with nice pictures.

That pretty much sums it up. However, the 375's are a great all around NorthAmerican round.

quote:

What do I recommend? If you are going to hunt buffalo, start at 416 and work your way UP!

That's always good advice, and some places used to require a .4 on the calibre for buffalo.

For 416, people need to remember that non-cons and monos love velocity. If a choice is being made, then 150-200 fps faster than than 416 Remington is a great all-around load for Africa (Rigby class capacity). If needing to use Remington capacities, then a 350 grain would be max in order to keep velocity up.

The 416 is a nice steak and cold beer sort of calibre.

Michael:

I laughed when I read your 9,3 post. In the September issue of American Rifleman Harry Selby wrote an article extolling the virtues of the .375 H&H (and the 9,3X62). He said that the flanged .375 was ideal "for a lady hunter who might prefer a double to a bolt-action rifle". Many a buffalo has been taken with a 9,3 or a .375 but I would suggest you stick with a 286 or a 300 grain bullet for that work. The North Forks would be my choice or perhaps just use the BBW#13 solids.

Dave



Well, you see, me and Harry are on the same page, mighty fine calibers, 9.3 and 375, for little girls!

And I am sure you have these for the "Ladies" in your life?

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Blaser .470 NE

HEH HEH...............

You need that caliber to hit buffalo hard! It makes all the difference in the world!

And Tanz, I ain't so sure about 416 caliber, I just said start there and work your way up!!!!!



Michael

Six blades. Three blades. C'mon Michael, if you are going to use a medium bore for thick skinned game, quit screwing around with those non cons. Put a North Fork Cup Point Solid in the tube and some BBW#13s in the magazine.