It would appear clan wee-wee has come out of the closet and cannot read. They live among us, sadly.

Pyzda-

You, sir, are an idiot. You have obviously determined you do not need to read this thread before posting your incomprehensible B.S. Do us all a favor and "GO AWAY", please. English is clearly your second language and I'm willing to bet that Afrikans is your first.

quote:

As Michael has repeated on this thread--his test doesn't prove that the flatNose will always go straight in an animal, but he has proven that the round nose is much less reliable and much more liable to veer off course even in a homogenous medium. Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood (where roundnoses will do straight).

"

Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood ?

I've had a few RN's go nearly 6 feet (end to end on Big Water Buffalo) and more than a few in the 4 - 5 foot range. I am sure others have as well.

.

+1

If you guys knew what Pyzda means in Russian you may know where this guy is coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

As Michael has repeated on this thread--his test doesn't prove that the flatNose will always go straight in an animal, but he has proven that the round nose is much less reliable and much more liable to veer off course even in a homogenous medium. Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood (where roundnoses will do straight).

"

Hence, don't use round nose when desiring 6-feet of straight penetration in anything other than wood ?

I've had a few RN's go nearly 6 feet (end to end on Big Water Buffalo) and more than a few in the 4 - 5 foot range. I am sure others have as well.

.

505G

It gets a bit tiring to hear the same miss use of Michael's data on veering. Yes, in wet pack RN steel jacketed bullets will veer more than FN bullets. I believe Michael's data shows around half veer. To transfer that data to what to expect in animal tissue is the miss use. We don't know why this veering occurs in wet pack at such a higher rate than seen in animal tissue. What we do know from field observations is that it seldom occurs in live animals. My self and a couple of others on here have reported on over 250 RN steel jacketed solids used on elephant and buffalo with no discernable veering observed. There are single reports of both FN and RN steel jacketed bullets veering reported on here. It appears that veering mostly happens when a rounded heavy bone receives a glancing blow. They are very rare and of about an equal number for both bullet types. But the above poster is correct in that a small amount of veering would not be detectable. It would take a significant amount of veering to be recognizable by field observation without the use of measuring instrumentation. African PHs use RN steel jacketed solids in great numbers. Few have ever had any qualms about using them.

When it comes to penetration, FN bullets give more penetration in soft tissue but in elephant heads they penetrate to approximately the same depth. It is so close that I can not say which goes the deepest.

465H&H

465H&H

Yep, agree, not sure why the difference.

250 is a good sample, about 250 - 1000 would be dug out of Water Buffalo by one person here in Aust as all animals are cut up for meat and of course some are used for bullet testing.

If there was a major problem with them (RNSN or say Woodleigh Hydro's), then they would know about it - and be on the phone asap to Woodleigh.

In addition, these animals are not all shot in the same place so we do get a very good variety
of bullets entering the body from all angles.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
If you guys knew what Pyzda means in Russian you may know where this guy is coming from.

I thought it was Lithuanian.

But the name says everything about that person no matter if it is Russian or Lithuanian....

505G---This RN vs FN business has been beat to F*****G death year after year after year! I can and have give many examples of RN veering in animal tissues, I have listened to folks tell me personally about various RN in various calibers veering off course in elephants, elephant heads, buffalo body shots and so forth, so on, and on and on and on.

Please, by all means I want you to continue shooting your 10000s and Millions of buffalo down under with those Woodleigh FMJs, I think they are just dandy for you, they work for you, they transmit enormous amounts of trauma to those poor things, just knocks them off their feet, for you, and will most likely penetrate 4-5 of them from ass to nose, just line them up like circus elephants and hammer down.

But what I am going to refuse is to be drawn into another BullSh*t discussion on this, over and over and over again, same old same. This has been settled long ago and as far as I care is No longer a concern or issue and is just BEATING THE HELL OF OF this poor dead horse, end of story, there is more to do than even consider these issues.




As for pyzda or whatever-----

Michael

GREAT!!!!!! Now the BullSh*t has settled and we move forward once again!

I missed an incredible opportunity while I was in Australia! I am and have been kicking my rear side since I returned. Let me explain!

For the longest time now dealing with the various B&M Super Shorts--in particular the .500 and the .474--these are very light bullets in both BBW#13s and North Forks. .500-- BBW#13 375 gr Solid--335 gr NonCon, for North Fork, 375 Solid/375 CPES. In .474 we have 350 BBW#13 Solid/320 BBW#13 NonCon and both North Forks are again 375 gr. In all the test work done with these, it told me at Super Short Velocity the penetration and trauma induced were good and well into "Buffalo Territory". Our recent trip proved as much, now there is NO DOUBT ABOUT any of the above bullets. They are not only just "Adequate" for buffalo, they are actually HAMMERS on buffalo. Knowing what I know today, given the choice between carrying a 50 B&M Super SHort, or a 475 B&M Super Short, with these specifically designed bullets--And a 458 Lott with 500 Swift A Frames, Woodleigh Softs, Barnes X, and 500 Barnes Banded or any other combo--I would go for either of those Super Shorts any day of the week. I refer to 458 Lott because I have a good deal of experience with buffalo in this area.

Now, with that said I am going to refer to something we call Sectional Density, and I am only using it as a simple comparison between one caliber bullet and the other with the same design bullets, and nothing more than that--so for gods sakes lets not let this turn into another BS argument over what SD is and how it works, and valuable or not. It is #8 on the list of factors for solids, and blah blah blah. I want a simple comparison between same design bullets and different calibers, that IS ALL.

The SD for a 375 gr .500 caliber bullet is .214 and a .500 335 NonCon is .191. Everything we have been taught FOREVER is that for buffalo we simply MUST HAVE a .300 or better SD, end of story. I have recovered a lot of 500 gr 458 Swifts, Woodleighs Softs from the far side of buffalo, SD of .341. Now we get the same penetration with a .500 caliber 375 and 335 gr bullet with SD from .191 to .214. Construction and mode of operation responsible for that of course. Compare the same North Forks and BBW#13 NonCons to bigger North Forks and BBW#13s with more SD and same everything else, you get more penetration, SD of importance there.

In .474 caliber the 375 gr North Forks are .238, 320 BBW#13 NonCon at .203. Again, very low SD from what we have been taught, but giving the same increased penetration over other and nearly all conventionals. By Design of course.

Skeptical? I was too until I see it with my own eyes on real buffalo. Test work told me so, and I listened to the test work, paid attention to it, and guess what "It Was So".........

So, what incredible opportunity did it forget and miss? We KNOW for a FACT, that both BBW#13 NonCons and North Fork CPES like velocity. The more velocity, the more trauma inflicted, and the deeper the penetration. Our own test work here shows this. All the work ever done in the field, for instance using the same bullets at higher velocity, shows us this same thing.

I had loaded some of the .474 320 gr BBW#13 NonCons in the 475 B&M at an increased velocity. While the little 475 Super Short was running this same bullet at 2275-2300 fps, I had it rocking along at 2600 fps in the 18 inch barrel of the bigger 475 B&M. My intentions were to use it on some buffalo and watch for increased trauma inflicted, and increased depth of penetration. Well, damn, I forgot I had them in all the excitement of shooting and hunting! Since this was the first outing for all of these rifles for buffalo, I put my priorities on the 420 BBW#13 NonCon and the 425 North Fork CPES bullets. I forgot all about the 10 320 BBW#13s I had loaded at 2600 fps! Until I got home and was putting things away.

I missed a hell of an opportunity to prove what I believe to be so. That is to take one of the smaller BBW#13 NonCons or North Fork CPES bullets, run velocity up, and slam the hell out of buffalo with that increased trauma and increased penetration. I have NO DOUBT in my mind that while the far shoulder of a big bull and that 1/2 inch + hide stopped the 320 BBW#13 remaining bullet at 2300 fps, that another 300 fps it would have exited, and it would have dumped more trauma to the target! But, damn, I missed that opportunity to see it with my own eyes!

Lets go back in time some and back to SD. When we designed some of the BBW#13s, specifically for some cartridges, but which carry over well with others. Example, 458 caliber, 458 B&M, at its very best with 450 BBW#13 Solids and it's matching 420 NonCon. Well, think about it, we were used to shooting buffalo with 450 to 500 gr Conventional bullets, SD from .306 to .341. Now we want that first shot to be with a 420 #13 NonCon, SD of .286. But, it proved itself incredibly by out penetrating any conventional 500 gr bullet, every single time, and hit with far more authority and inflicted more trauma as well. So any NonCon with an SD of .250 or more was plenty plenty of everything and then more.

Now my thoughts are going to even lighter bullets, less SD, but at much increased velocity! Yes, it's totally nuts, totally OUTSIDE the box, and I DO NOT ADVOCATE that you do this. Problem is, I probably will not get another opportunity until next year now. My hunting for buffalo is finished for the year. I believe that what I say is true. Test work says so, and the test work has never proved me wrong yet, what is successful in the test work, is successful in the field. I do not advocate that anyone try this outside myself. I am going to, and it is my next mission in the field to do so.

This was the great opportunity I missed, and I regret it too! Or we would have been well advanced probably more than a year!

Michael

Lighter bullets, more speed!!?? You know you are speaking my language now. As much as i fight it with all the proper info and test results, i can not beat that fact that i am a speed freak! No sense in fighting it any longer, it is why i have shot lazzeronis over the years.

So having said that, you must have been in my head over the last few days. I was going to wait til we come down endo of sept, but since you opened the door....
So you know i was planning on building the 9.3, but have been fascinated with the super shorts. I was wondering if we can get a .458 super short up to somewhere in teh upper 2000 fps. For me 3000 is the mark, and i know i am right at that with 335 tipped noncons in my 500 MDM. So maybe a 225 or 250 gr raptor. Am i dreaming or is this possible? If so can we makea some to test in late sept?

Brent

Let me refine previous post by saying i am not looking for this to be a buff, ele, hippo, or rhino rifle, but mainly a leopard, lion weapon that can shoot eland out to 150 yds.

quote:

So maybe a 225 or 250 gr raptor. Am i dreaming or is this possible?

A .458 250 gr?

The Depth of my Corruption will only go so far!

The current 295 BBW#13 is doing 2500-2575 fps now in 16 inches of gun.

I don't know Brent? I will ponder on this a bit. I know in the 458 B&M we can run that 295BBW#13 up to 2800 fps in 20 inches.

I think that 250 or so is a little light for many or most things? But, I have been wrong about a lot of things, and that is part of my long post above concerning these matters!

Compared SD of a 250 .458 is .171--compared SD of a 300 .500 is .171. Hmmmm? Have I tested that 300 gr .500 yet? Yes, I have, damn I can't remember anything, thank god I keep half decent records.




That is just not even remotely possible? Is It? It must be, has to be!

Maybe I will ponder on this a little more Brent? But it is still too light, maybe? Nuts!

Michael

quote:

Maybe I will ponder on this a little more Brent? But it is still too light, maybe? Nuts!

I'd be happier with 350 (360 with tip) grain non-con in .510" (which would be like a 290gn in .458).
Yes, I would shoot a .510" 300 grainer at a broadside buffalo, but an extra 15% weight could mean a little extra penetration on unanticipated-angle shots.

And if the six petals take away approximately the same weight whether from a 300 or 350 in .510", then the penetrating core projectile might have 20-22% more weight in a 350 grainer over a 300 grainer, since the lighter bullet would be mostly lighter in the core, the petals being equal. [The big core might be 270 grains (360gn minus 90), with the lighter core only 220 grains (310-90)]

Well you ponder. My thought was not the light weight, i have no problem with a noncon going tha fast doing tremendous damage, but in brass will it be too short to even come close to the lands. Will the darn thing have to jump 1/4" of freebore before striking the lands. Could be for shit accuracy.

I am just looking for a little rifle that i can hurt eland or zebra with at 150-200 yds.



The current 295 BBW#13 is doing 2500-2575 fps now in 16 inches of gun.

I don't know Brent? I will ponder on this a bit. I know in the 458 B&M we can run that 295BBW#13 up to 2800 fps in 20 inches.

I think that 250 or so is a little light for many or most things? But, I have been wrong about a lot of things, and that is part of my long post above concerning these matters!

Compared SD of a 250 .458 is .171--compared SD of a 300 .500 is .171. Hmmmm? Have I tested that 300 gr .500 yet? Yes, I have, damn I can't remember anything, thank god I keep half decent records.




That is just not even remotely possible? Is It? It must be, has to be!

Maybe I will ponder on this a little more Brent? But it is still too light, maybe? Nuts!

Michael[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I am looking into some new bullets to work with and I might just surprise you guys.

You know me, I am still a "tweaker", and I have a few things I want to tweak!

Michael

Some familiar faces
http://site.cuttingedgebullets.../pdf/CEB_Catalog.pdf

Very nice!

Thanks Boomy...

It is a very impressive catalog and helpful for maneuvering through the various options.

One potential typo: the .510" DGBR BBW#13 lists a 475 grain 'solid brass' and also a 510 grain 'solid brass'. I assume that the 510 grain is actually a solid but that the 475 grain is intended to be a "NonCon HP Brass".

Good catch Tanz.

Very nice catalog from CEB.
It's been great watching this company grow, in spite of the current US economy.
I think Dan "built it," but he did get some ideas from a few folks associated with this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Very nice catalog from CEB.
It's been great watching this company grow, in spite of the current US economy.
I think Dan "built it," but he did get some ideas from a few folks associated with this thread.

All very true, but the gov't sure didn't build it!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Very nice catalog from CEB.
It's been great watching this company grow, in spite of the current US economy.
I think Dan "built it," but he did get some ideas from a few folks associated with this thread.

All very true, but the gov't sure didn't build it!

Right!
Now how about some "Eastwooding" ...

Yes, very nice catalog by CEB for sure!

It was a tough weekend here, I had a major computer issue that took most of the day Saturday to sort out. In fact, I had to completely erase, and start over with my #1 machine here. Software issue with FireFox I believe. Hopefully that is sorted out now. I run Apples for the most part. Rarely have issues like that!

Sunday we had a nice visit here with our very own Boomy! He was passing through, and stopped by for a quick visit, all too quick however! No time for shooting, just a good little visit. We all enjoyed.

Seems I am not the only one plagued with computer issues either. I tried to work with my photobucket yesterday, and come to find out they had major issues as well, for the last 4 DAYS!!!!! I thought sure it was my end, but after looking at 4 different computers here, and then going to Tech Support, it was their end, not mine.


With this out of the way, I want to post a little test, but another post separate from this.
M

Saw the Guns and Ammo article on the 50 B&M AK.
Was a nice piece but what was awesome for sure was seeing the CEB solids and non cons! Great advertising and exposure. Congrats M and CEB. Too bad there were no terminal performance comparison
Thanks again for a great visit M!

From what I heard from Layne it was just a 1 page Cartridge type review or something such. I have not seen it yet. I am glad to hear however that Layne is looking at the BBW#13s that have been designed for the 50 B&M AK.

Boomy, you are welcome anytime!

A couple of other things of note!

Well, our pal Aaron Neilson has returned from Tanzania, having been EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL on Lion. Some posted on that in the African Forum by Aaron, if you have not seen it. I have been back and forth with Aaron most of the day yesterday about this, that, and the other. Aaron used his 375 RUM on the lion, 270 BBW#13 6 Blade NonCon at probably some wild velocity as well, and it hammered the lion.

BUT.............. And Here We Go Again!!!!! BUT......the 375 270 BBW#13 NonCon just was NOT IMPRESSIVE at all on Buffalo!!!!!


Duhhh, No Sh*T Buckwheat! How about that? You know me, or you should by now, I speak what is on my mind, and I do my best to tell it like it is.

Aaron confided that he had been more impressed with the TSX at velocity on buffalo than the 270 NonCon in 375 RUM. Aaron using the 6 blade version of the 270 which was perfect on thin skinned, lion and such, was struggling to be effective on buffalo, as the blades were probably not getting enough penetration to continue to work with the bullet. As we know from the 9.3 tests conducted in the last few days, and as we know from Ken on his trip to Australia. Will the new 3 blade 9.3 and 375 do any better?? Probably to a certain degree they will. Will they just bowl buffalo over? Get real, no matter WHAT YOU DO--it's still a 375 caliber on buffalo, and buffalo just are not going to be impressed with 375 or 9.3!

Just because you are using the best of bullets, do not expect that buffalo are going to give a damn if they are being hit with 9.3 or 375 caliber. Buffalo are not like other critters that just fall over when you mention "375". More than likely they will look at you and say this--"That's the Best you can do?" "That's All You Got?".

People expect way too much with a medium bore on buffalo. I even expected more from my 9.3 B&M, I quickly put it away, even with the 3 blade NonCons. And I was only shooting cows to test the 3 blade bullet.

Aaron asked me this;

"So what is my solution? Use the TSX in the 375 RUM or 416 with CEBs?????"

My Answer

"Best Solution is to stop shooting buffalo with a 375 anything--End Of Story!"



Michael

Every time I hear of 375 mentioned in the same sentence with buffalo

I just want to

Michael,

Unfortunately there are many folks out there who - for whatever reason - will continue to use he 9.3 and .375 calibers on buffalo. Heck back in Taylor's day there were many English gentry that used the 318 Westley Richards and the 330 Jeffery on buffalo and believed they were using the perfect caliber/cartridge combo...

It appears Dan needs to offer both the 6-petal and 3-petal bullets in 9.3 and .375 calibers with each prominently noted on the website and the PDF catalog what their intended usage is. Perhaps even contact current customers of these two calibers to forewarn them against using the 6-petal versions on buffalo...

Now this does raise an interesting issue and set of questions, "How are the 6-petal .409/.410 and .416 caliber HP NonCons doing on buffalo? Are the petals sufficiently heavy in these calibers to penetrate into the buffalo's innards? Has a minimum individual petal weight been identified that assures optimal penetration? Do these calibers perhaps need a 4-petal HP NonCon for use on buffalo? And finally, as these bullets will likely have either the Ogive or Round Talon Tips installed for optimal petal performance, should the 3-petal bullets have a single groove engraved at their sheer points (similar to Sam's lighter weight DR .510 caliber bullets) for easy identification of the heavier 3/4-petal versions?"

quote:

for whatever reason - will continue to use he 9.3 and .375 calibers on buffalo. Heck back in Taylor's day there were many English gentry that used the 318 Westley Richards and the 330 Jeffery on buffalo and believed they were using the perfect caliber/cartridge combo...

quote:

[/QUOTE

And Buffalo ate a right good many of those stupid bastards too!

And, it's probably not a bad thing, it brightens the human "Genetic Pool"!




[QUOTE]It appears Dan needs to offer both the 6-petal and 3-petal bullets in 9.3 and .375 calibers with each prominently noted on the website and the PDF catalog what their intended usage is.

Already a done deal--it is so. Speaking with Dan this morning, and after speaking with Ken Buch the other day, in particular the double guys need a BBW#13 NonCon that is both 6 blade, for kitty cats, and 3 blade if they insist on using rat calibers for buffalo---this only in 9.3 and 375 caliber.


Anything above 40 caliber the blades are big enough that they do not bend or break, as seen with the 9.3s in the last test. Blades slice, weight has little to nothing to do with it. If the blades are big enough to not bend or break, then they continue to slice through dense muscle and tissue. Small blades, like the thin 6 blades on the 9.3s and 375s tend to bend on heavy muscle tissue, bending is not conducive to "slicing" nor is breaking if they bend to that point.

40 caliber and up, the blades are big enough to not bend or break. No more needed in that area that I or we can identify now. All 416s that I have heard of, even going back to the beginning with Dough has been hammers and no issues with blades ripping insides out of buffalo, and everything else as well.

M

Michael, Cappy is right. People are going to continue to use the 9,3s and .375s for buffalo. How about just using the BBW#13 solids on buffalo in the 9,3 and .375 instead of the non cons? A buffalo or a bison can take a lot of bullet shock. They still die from a well placed shot. It just takes a little longer.

Michael,
10-4... Blade thickness not blade weight.

Agree with the mangling by buffalo...but the herd needs periodic thinning...

Dave,
Solids, or solids backing up expanding ,bullets was the 'way' before expanding bullets with integrity became readily available. Hunters need the 3-petal CEB .366 and .375 caliber bullets for maximum performance available in these two calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael, Cappy is right. People are going to continue to use the 9,3s and .375s for buffalo. How about just using the BBW#13 solids on buffalo in the 9,3 and .375 instead of the non cons? A buffalo or a bison can take a lot of bullet shock. They still die from a well placed shot. It just takes a little longer.

Dave,

That is just the problem. They take a little longer. How much mayhem can they cause during that "little longer". If a good soft will kill or incapacitate them quicker there is no down side.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

Dave,
Solids, or solids backing up expanding ,bullets was the 'way' before expanding bullets with integrity became readily available. Hunters need the 3-petal CEB .366 and .375 caliber bullets for maximum performance available in these two calibers.

Cappy:

I was at the range yesterday finishing load development with my little 9,3X74R Chapuis and the 286 grain North Fork Cup Point Solids. That would be my choice for a "soft" in the smaller calibers over the non cons for heavier game. I like the concept of an "expanding" solid.

Michael,

Sounds like Aaron nees some of those small cavity "prototype" 270gr NonCon 375 for use on buffalo. Especially at the velocity capable from a RUM!

Dave, There is absolutely nothing wrong with the NF bullets - their SS, CPS, and FPS bullets work extremely well!

Cappy:

I agree with Michael insofar as he says that with respect to big, heavy game like buffalo, bigger is probably better, at least to a point. However, it's pretty hard to argue that a 9,3 or a .375 is inadequate. I would guess that more buffalo have been killed with a 9,3X62 or a .375 H&H than all the other guns combined and it was being done way before we had the bullets of today.

You might not have noticed but Michael has well, some "strongly held opinions"

GREAT! Although I plan on using the 577NE on my hunt in 5 weeks, I'm using the 9.3X74R as a scoped backup gun just in case. I just received, yesterday, what I thought was to be my final CEB shipment of bullets prior to the hunt. 9.3 Non-Cons of the 6 petal design but with tips! I can't keep up! Guess I'll need some new 3 petal units prior to leaving. Maybe I'll just stick to solids if forced to the 9.3.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Maybe I'll just stick to solids if forced to the 9.3.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Cappy:

You might not have noticed but Michael has well, some "strongly held opinions"

Dave, I can't believe you would say that about ME!!!!!!!!!!!