quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Boom Stick:
No way do I want a butt plug named "Rip" as in
"rip you a new a-hole."
Butt seriously, ass well ass the fact that messing with
the base of a bullet can cause accuracy problems
more so than a little nose irregularity:
No RIP Butt Plug!

Max,
IIRC, the newer Talon tips work in the newer NonCon nose holes.
Doc M will clarify I am sure, if he has time before
the next safari.

I don't know...I think Dan offering a 'RIPPER' would be awesome!

Raptors as Solids.

OK, no secret, I am not a big fan of the Raptors in the big bores, basically 458 up. Yep, we got good solids, the best, we got NonCons, the best, and if we really want to increase BC for plains game and such as that, we can either design a short nose profile, or use a lever gun profile bullet, seat deep, use tips in the magazine of the bolt guns. Really, I think that serves us better in the big bores.

We go to the mediums, and small bores, this is where I LOVE the Raptor! It's King Daddy of this world. And, being a medium or small bore, decent solids are NOT AVAILABLE in those calibers. And I can think of a million + uses I have for a solid in small useless rat calibers, should I ever be FORCED to the field with one of them! Tell you how good I like the 9.3 210 Raptor---Other than the new "Test 255 NonCon" I am taking, I have all loads with the 210 Raptor to Australia. I have plenty of confidence in that for this buffalo shooting mission. I have a few turned around as solids too! I did not change powders or amounts, same load as the NOnCons, drops 100 fps, same exact POI, same hole. If I were to ever mess with 338 again, it would be the 175 or 200 Raptor, nothing else. And you can go right down the list in calibers, I would go with a Raptor. And, I would make use of the solid end frequently I am sure.


Round Nose Caps!

BC? Hmmmm, I don't know if you would get much BC out of a RN cap to be worth mentioning? When I get back, by damned we will find out. JHC--Build the perfect damned bullet, and then we make a Round Nose out of it? It just don't make good sense! J-H-F-C! But, I do support the RN Cap because some people don't have decent rifles, and at least they might be able to get a decent bullet. Most won't send to have the rifles sorted out. So the RN Cap is the cure.

Michael

The Raptors do shine in the medium and small bore. The Raptors are a good choice in big bores where you want to not buy two kinds of bullets and two loads. I think the Raptors are best up to 416.
Not many options for medium and small bore options so that is a good niche.
When do you get back Michael? Wishing you a great hunt!

Michael,

You have a safe and great hunt... We'll try to think of something for you to do in the lab after your return...

RN Caps...
I agree a really stupid solution to a feeding-problem bolt rifle but why expect someone to spend a couple of hundred $ to fix a factory defect while spending multiple thousands $ for an African hunt! I guess stupid is as stupid does! However, if the intellectually challenged require a RN Cap for the HP NonCon rather than fix their rifle then so be it. At least the Cap will help with low velocity petal shear...

The Caps will add little additional BC to the bullet but at least it will keep the large HP from being a drag in longer shots.

quote:

RN Caps...
I agree a really stupid solution to a feeding-problem bolt rifle but why expect someone to spend a couple of hundred $ to fix a factory defect while spending multiple thousands $ for an African hunt! I guess stupid is as stupid does!

I could not agree with you more! Any DUMBASS, that is not willing to sort a defective rifle out regardless of what it costs to sort it out so that it is a 100% feed and function DGR, well, is a Dumbass! End of Story. Even worse, I look at them as "amateurs" greenhorns, inept.

But I will say in defense of one thing and this is the only out with me, and our friend Dave Bush (Credit Due) showed me the light on this one, The Fellow that will never go to Africa, that will never hunt dangerous game and only uses his big bore for play. In that light and for that reason, I will give all those who don't wish to have the rifle worked, or sorted out, a little slack. In fact, I can very well understand this, as I have a big Ruger 510 Wells that won't feed anything that even starts to look flat. I have never sorted it out, as I know it will never go further than the range out back. I have no use of it to begin with, 12 lbs and about 6-7 feet long--compared to a B&M anyway...... HEH.............

But the chap who does in fact intend to go for Dangerous Game, and he does not sort his rifle out, and chooses an inferior bullet in which to do the mission, then they get ZERO respect, and not a bit of slack from me, consider them inept, and better warn the PH he has trouble coming, with an amateur, and hope no one gets hurt because of it.

Michael

Michael,

I understand Dave's point regarding this small subgroup of the weekend warrior...but I also disagree with him... Fix it once and it's fixed... Never fix it and it's never fixed... Not nuclear science on this one.

I doubt this BB weekend warrior is willing to spend $2+ for each bullet to only punch holes in a target when they accomplish the same grins-n-giggles shooting using bullets that cost far less than $1 per bullet...

If this same BB weekend warrior intends to do non-DG hunting stateside with this malfunctioning rifle they're going to be spending a few hundred $ for their in-state hunting and a few thousand $ for any out-of-state hunting...at least in this end of the country...dso again why not fix their malfunctioning bolt rifle to start with... Poor shot placement with the 1st shot followed by a rifle that won't consistently cycle the 2nd cartridge just might prevent the needed follow-up shot to keep wounded game from escaping perhaps to never being found...not very humane from my prospective...

Sorry I just don't see this as a valid rational for Dan needing to go to the additional expense of maintaining Caps for the HP NonCons...I just don't believe a weekend warrior is typically willing to spend what it costs for the CEB bullets...even the BB weekend warrior...but Dan's the businessman in this endeavor not I.

Boomy

Raptors are kicking ass in mediums and down, no doubt about it. You know, I find us looking for miracle bullets, myself included. There is not a doubt in the world that the Raptors, BBW#13 NonCons enhance every caliber, up and down the line. But we still must not forget, that enhancement is still within caliber! You still can't turn a .308 caliber into a .500! It's still a .308 and it will not hit like a .500 no matter what you do! By the same token, you cannot turn a 22 into a 308 either, it's still a 22. While the great enhancement is "Within" caliber, one must keep in mind the enhancement can only go so far, if you want more, you go bigger. And you will get more.

I mention these thing only because I have to remind myself of it as well. I also need to do a better job of explaining things, I think. I know I have labeled some lesser bores as giving massive trauma, and it's true, but massive within that caliber, and not compared to a bigger bore, 458, .500 .510. For instance, the 223 NonCons gave more trauma than I have ever seen, WITH A .223 bullet, and in no way compare to larger calibers. I catch myself with these things, so careful you guys don't get caught up in them too. Expect the limitations of the caliber you are working with.

I like the 300 416 Raptor pretty well, in a 416 B&M I can get 2600 with AA2520, and in the 2500s with other powders, deep and with the Tips in the magazine. More than enough. Same pretty much with the 300 Raptor in .458. But I can do better with the 295 NonCon in that same capacity without bulging the case. For Lionhunter I tried the 416 300 Raptor in 416 Remington and had 2700 fps without issue, excellent load as well. More than enough. But I think the Raptors really come into their own at 375 and down.

Leaving on the 24th, Sam, Matthew, Mark David, Mercedes, Momma and myself! 4 shooters! I think I will be helping Paul keep those three in line more than doing much shooting myself, although don't worry, I will make sure I get some shooting done. I will try and not shoot more than 30-40 of them!

I have some specific missions in mind for this trip. First, it will be the first outing for either of the new 475 B&Ms. 475 B&M and 475 Super Short. I have 3 bullets working in the 475 Super Short. 350 BBW#13 Solid, 320 BBW#13 NonCon, and the 375 North Fork CPS. Will these be enough for buffalo? Test work here says yes. I have several bullets to put to work in the 475 B&M, 420 BBW#13 NonCon, 450 BBW#13 SOlid, 425 North Fork Premium bonded, 425 North Fork CPS, and a 320 BBW#13 NonCon at 2600 fps--curious to see? While the 50 B&M Super Short has been out in the field in many hands for a long time now, sadly I have not done so or put it to work, so I have the same sort of bullets to work in it, 335 BBW#13 NOnCon, 375 BBW#13 Solid, 375 NOrth Fork CPS, and now just arrived TODAY, the New .500 375 North Fork FPS Solid, New Nose Profile. Will be checking the new North Fork Solid for POI tomorrow morning and taking some along.

For the first time in many years I am not going on a hunt heavy to solids. I don't expect to use many solids at all in any of the rifles. While I WILL NOT yet concede that one does not need a solid for buffalo, I am not planning on using very many. I will use some in the Super Shorts to test, and probably in the 9.3 to test a turned around Raptor. If the boys are lucky to run into a big bull, I might have them load a couple of solids down in the Super Shorts for that. But for general use, no, we won't be using many solids at all this trip.

Now the 9.3! We got a report from our own Kebco last week. He in fact had just returned from Australia, and 15 buffalo, with a new double in the new high speed VC 375 something or other. Kebco is a BBW#13 NonCon fan, but found that in circumstances where the .375 NoNCon hit in the heavy shoulders of buffalo that the blades did not penetrate as deep as they should, and in many cases did not get into the vitals on shoulder shots. This has not been an issue with me of course, but I don't shoot 375s. I have only used 458s and 500s on buffalo. We know that others have used the 416s with great success. Now yes, I am taking the 9.3 B&M with 210 Raptors, and for culling, herd reduction, smaller animals and cows, this will work, plenty of penetration, blades might have some issues on the bigger cows, but I will sort them out. But, this does give us an excellent opportunity to do some test work with the 9.3 and a new 255 NonCon that may be able to get the blades to penetrate a big buffalo shoulder. Dan came up with a good idea, and we are going to put it to work in 9.3. If it works in 9.3, it will work with .375 as well. If this is successful, then there will be a special "Buffalo Bullet" in both 9.3 and 375 caliber. Only those two however, and no more. Since those are legal minimums for buffalo, there will be no need to do it in other related mediums. Bigger bores there are no issues with blades busting through. So, very important mission in 9.3.

I can tell you guys now, autopsies will not be as extensive on this trip as many in the past. There will be study of penetration, animal reactions, and we will do some chopping to check on blades, especially the 9.3 work. But there will not be enough time to do extensive work as done in the past, we have buffalo to put in the dirt, and we intend to not waste any daylight in doing so! While we will do a study, it won't be as extensive, and INTENSIVE as what has been done in the past, there is just not enough time, unless we find ourselves catching up on quota early! But then again, there are 4 shooters, so that means work divided by 4, so we might get more intensive with the study than I think as well.

No contact while out there, so you won't hear from me until I get back in the world around 10 August or so, and then it may be several days after that. But, you got me for another week here to put up with! I am sure you guys can use a break from me! HEH HEH..........

Michael

Michael,

Don't forget I'm going to have my 500 NE double with 475 gr and 535 gr non cons and 510 gr and 570 gr solids to back you and the boys up with.

Sam

With the lighter Non Cons and Raptors in the 375 class would you not want to skip the shoulders and just do a heart lung shot? If you collapse the lung and puncture the heart you have one dead buff. I would think that a shoulder only shot would be less effective than a heart lung shot. What do you think?

Cappy

Once again, you have made an excellent point, the fellow who won't spend a couple $100 is not going to spend a $1.75 on a bullet, then another $0.50 or so on a tip either! And most certainly not to bust water jugs, or watermelons (BIG FUN), or punch paper.

On this point, you are correct. Hands down, zero argument from me.

But you know what the really sad thing is? The sad thing, and I believe this to be true, the majority of peckerheads that travel to Africa are exactly the inexperienced, inept, amateurs that we have been talking about. Now I am not talking about very many of our AR pals here, these guys are experienced, they are competent, (for the most), and our guys learn, enjoy, and return. Many are handloaders, shooters, and gun men. But we here are a minority compared to what travels across the pond, I am quite sure of that. I have seen a lot of them, from all over the world. Many would not know which end of the rifle to point at an animal! Many go just to impress their friends, many ask the PH to do the shooting for them, many have never even fired their rifles, nor sighted them in before leaving. I have witnessed these things myself, I know it's true. Amazing as it sounds to us.

As for Dave Bush, while Dave has no plans to hunt dangerous game in Africa, I bet your ass that if he decided to do so, he would make sure he had a proper rifle, feed, function, and the best bullets for the job. Dave might not spend the bucks if he don't need to, but he would if he had a plan to do something more. As would many of our guys here, they know better. Problem is, regardless of what we say, there are folks we never reach, and if we did, it would be of little consequence. I could go on about these sort of things.

Believe me, there are some stupid ass people out there, Dan will probably have a hard time keeping RN Caps in stock!

HEH HEH......................

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
With the lighter Non Cons and Raptors in the 375 class would you not want to skip the shoulders and just do a heart lung shot? If you collapse the lung and puncture the heart you have one dead buff. I would think that a shoulder only shot would be less effective than a heart lung shot. What do you think?

Boomy

The heart on a buff lies right under that big shoulder, not the bone, but that muscle just behind the bones on the leg broadside. Depending on the angle, frontal to broadside, you go through a big chunk of muscle and meat there that the smaller blades on the mediums and smaller bores would have a hard time penetrating. One really does not want to be too far behind that spot, although it is a good lung shot and will do the job quickly. Still, consider as we go down in bore size, everything gets smaller, and that includes the blades that shear.

What we call a shoulder shot, or let me speak for myself anyway, that actually is a heart shot, vessels, and lungs. Behind that shoulder, just lungs and you can't get too far back or you have an issue. Best shot, 1/3 up dead in that shoulder from broadside. I like frontals too. NonCons blow the hell out of a heart from frontals--big bore NOncons.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Don't forget I'm going to have my 500 NE double with 475 gr and 535 gr non cons and 510 gr and 570 gr solids to back you and the boys up with.

Sam

You can shoot Matthews buffalo all you want. I have you paired with him to begin with anyway. Shoot one of my buffalo and me and you gonna roll in the damned dirt!

Michael, Better get ready to get dirty!!! HEE HEE

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael, Better get ready to get dirty!!! HEE HEE

Don't worry about that--I've been dirty more than once!!!!



Better be nice to me--I Have your Australian Firearms License, I have your Ammo Permission for Qantas too! I think I will just look after these things for you!

M

You always have something you can hold over my head.

"Now, Now, Boys!" Play nice.

The New North Fork Solids in .500 did in fact arrive. I have been busy this morning testing the 375 FPS in the 50 B&M Super Short that is going to Australia next week. They do shoot to the same POI at 50 with the other various bullets I am using, including the 375 CPS. Both will be used on buffalo starting sometime next week.

Got a package containing some samples of the new Round Nose Cap for the BBW#13 NonCons, in .500, .458, .416, and .375.

I quickly grabbed some B&Ms and loaded a few dummies to see how they would work. The B&Ms work in WSM Short Magazines, with the longer nose projections of the 458 and 416s, the RN Caps make standard loading too long for that magazine. Now, if I had a problem of feeding, and this issue, I would solve it by merely trimming the case down to the length that I needed and seat the bullet to that point, simple solution. Fortunately I use only Winchester M70s, and I don't have any feeding issues at all, with either CEB BBW#13s or North Forks.

The .500 caliber BBW#13 NonCons have a shorter nose profile than the other big bores, and the RN Cap presents no issues with any of my .500 caliber cartridges. Again, using Winchester M70s they are not needed or required. However, I do have that big stupid looking .500 caliber 50 B&M SA, Semi Auto--It is NOT a Winchester, and the RN Caps might be of importance in that cartridge and rifle.

When I return we will do some terminals with the RN Caps added, and we can check on that BC too

The Round Nose Caps, may or may not be needed for some rifles, but I can tell you this, it's just another step, another option for probably what is becoming the most versatile bullet ever.







Michael

Thank goodness for the RN caps.

Will they be available in .585 and .620?

I need them to solve that darn feeding problem in my doubles ...

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Thank goodness for the RN caps.

Will they be available in .585 and .620?

I need them to solve that darn feeding problem in my doubles ...

You should have got Winchester Doubles!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Thank goodness for the RN caps.

Will they be available in .585 and .620?

I need them to solve that darn feeding problem in my doubles ...

You should have got Winchester Doubles!

CCMDoc

I know, I have a cure for the ills of those doubles of yours. Send them on down to me, I will find my moto tool, and I will engrave Winchester on them somewhere, and that will fix them instantly! Maybe I just scratch it on with a file, maybe around that elephant I see on the one?

No worries, I will sort it out for you.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
CCMDoc

I know, I have a cure for the ills of those doubles of yours. Send them on down to me, I will find my moto tool, and I will engrave Winchester on them somewhere, and that will fix them instantly! Maybe I just scratch it on with a file, maybe around that elephant I see on the one?

No worries, I will sort it out for you.

M

I knew I could count on you to fix me up!

Just take out the band saw, separate the barrels and put a bolt on each side!

quote:

Just take out the band saw, separate the barrels and put a bolt on each side!

Then you wouldn't be neck-shooting Elephants, and could only fire one barrel at a time!!!

A thought on the roundnose caps, lest we forget on Terminals,
is that they may enhance the star patterns of the nose projectiles.

Michael will have to test one before going to the field, in any case.

Buffalo Bob's peanut gallery

Hope those RN tips don't make the bullet tumble or turn off to the side!!!!!!

I'm liking these black death mushroom caps. Mostly because it will shut up the ignorant fools who whine and bitch so much about their poor feeding rifles and blame the bullets. Yes it will enhance feeding a bit but won't fix a poor feeding rifle. Anyhoo being a blunt RN (and I like that) it wont affect poi that much and might help LVS but my guess is not by much compared to the spitzer and ogive. Those death mushroom caps could be useful on other shorter nose projection bullets like the 405 Win, 35 Rem and any other tight space you are trying to get your mushroom cap in like semi auto mags and lever guns ect. As Michael said... The most versatile bullet in the world especially the Raptors!
Thanks Dan and CEB

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Just take out the band saw, separate the barrels and put a bolt on each side!

Then you wouldn't be neck-shooting Elephants, and could only fire one barrel at a time!!!

Oouch!!!

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZing !!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hope those RN tips don't make the bullet tumble or turn off to the side!!!!!!

Now that would be a hoot! But since it is an expanding bullet it ain't going to happen.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hope those RN tips don't make the bullet tumble or turn off to the side!!!!!!

Now that would be a hoot! But since it is an expanding bullet it ain't going to happen.

465H&H

465HH
I can see you laughing your ass off at that--Perfectly good bullet, make a RN out of it, and it tumbles and veers! HEH HEH....Hell, I think I would laugh too!


We won't have time to test before I leave, I don't think anyway. I am way behind schedule and getting things ready to leave on Tuesday. I think this must wait until we return.

I will be field testing a new 3 blade design in 9.3. 3 blades instead of 6. Making the blades big bore size, hopefully deeper penetration of the blades in buffalo shoulders. We will see! 9.3 B&M sighted in, and will be ready to go with this 255 BBW#13 NonCon--3 blade! Works with tips too, so will be using both. Of course, tips won't fit the magazine because of the nose projection. Will load tips as 1st round up. Same POI exactly at 50.

Michael

Glad to see the Tri claw non con getting a whirl.
Another idea we discussed back in January about all the possible hollow point designs. The triangle might need an undercut but testing will tell. I like 5 or 6 petals for max organ damage but if three work better for heavy bone and keep trucking then they are worth a Tri
the four petal one is still in the works I hope for the muzzle loaders.

quote:

Hum...load the mushroom Caps in the Raptor...walk over to the sander and zip it down flat...voila - RIPPER is born! Just load it FN Solid forward and you're ready to go!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Hope those RN tips don't make the bullet tumble or turn off to the side!!!!!!

LOL


I found the caps on the Woodleigh Hydro's disappear, probably into thin air on hitting the animal.

Ass mushrooms...
You are brilliant Capo!
Rear round brown nose?
I'd be curious too see if they don't shove up the ass under firing as a solid.
Powder cap?
Name after you now.
Powder Capo?
Ass Cap-o?
Nobody wants to be the "butt" of this joke lol.
Michael. Would you be up for testing the butt plugs?
Raptor suppository testing needed?

Yeah I was teasing RIP with that one!

Though... Ass Caps would work just fine!

Ha ha, I know a joke when I see one.
Sanding the ass of a bullet:

I think we should call it the Non Con Improved!



465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I think we should call it the Non Con Improved!



465H&H

465H&H...
See if CEB will make you some full cavity depth shaft brass mushroom caps and you can have your non con and round nose solid in one bullet.
Maybe some brass flat top full depth shafts as well to turn your non cons into flat nose solids in a pinch once you see how squirrelly those RN bullets are in soft tissue !
Now that is worthy of testing!!!!
Flush brass cavity inserts vs RN inserts.
Let the games begin!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I think we should call it the Non Con Improved!



465H&H

465H&H...
See if CEB will make you some full cavity depth shaft brass mushroom caps and you can have your non con and round nose solid in one bullet.
Maybe some brass flat top full depth shafts as well to turn your non cons into flat nose solids in a pinch once you see how squirrelly those RN bullets are in soft tissue !
Now that is worthy of testing!!!!
Flush brass cavity inserts vs RN inserts.
Let the games begin!

If it acted squirrelly in elephant tissue then I could say that I have finally documented a misbehaving RN!!!


465H&H