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I'll take Maverick as a complement! And if you consider the context, you will see that I was talking about a second shot when we don't have control of the situation like with the first shot. That being said, it is true that my son shot a buff at 200 yards in October. Rock-steady rest, known rifle, accurate shooter, even a PH calling the the situation and asking for an old female meat-cull (we were all on local licenses) and aware of the shooter's abilities, wide open area with no visible intervening grass. First shot was lasered at 200 yards, before taking the shot, second shot was about 250 yards and not lasered. the shot was not taken because it was needed but because my son was able to get a second shot. Which illustrates my point of not being able to control the context of a second shot.  So, yes, I agree that getting in close is better, but if 'meat on the table' presents itself, we can take it. And we want our bullets to work in as many circumstances as possible. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Self defense ammo as well as the ammo to hunt the largest most dangerous animals on the planet do have something in common. The common demoninator is in both instances one needs ammo that will give adequate penetration to reach the vitails under varied conditions  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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416 Tanzan, Well done and I'm glad it turned out well. A side-on shot at 200 m is a bit easier, but from behind in a fleeing mode when it is bobbing up and down it is a totally different matter - even at a 100 it takes some nerve, but yes with some luck and extreme penetration I suppose it can be done, but the risk is great. If the risk pays off, you are a hero and the locals will hold you in high esteem, but should you wound it and it gets away you may feel unhappy and disappointed in yourself and you won't sleep that night. Anyway – good shot by your son and congratulations to him. Warrior | |||
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Actually, the risk is not taking a second shot when one is able. A bobbing-butt? As a second shot it is better than just letting him run off without an appropriate 'goodbye'. BUT Never as a first shot ! That is not just a 'risk', that would be irresponsible. I've had to follow up on buffalo in grass, discovered with a bleeding wound in their overnight bedding, where unknown shooters had done that. Not nice, and a danger to anyone in the locality! blessings +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I got another page to read to catch up, but can't help responding to Low Wall's post: quote: Wow and all I asked was what is more lethal, a tumbling solid or a solid that remains straight and true..... The answer is, "that would depend"... It's really quite simple and easy to grasp when you have a simple mind.. Next question? Low Wall, Right on! It depends, everything is relative, there are no absolutes, Viking Law: Applys to terminal ballistics, even if not everything in life. Alf, Now that Low Wall has answered that, in your review of the literature, how often does a tumbling solid become stabilized in a base forward alignment? More often than not, assuming a large enough medium to contain it before it exits sideways? On the smaller critters a tumble and exit in any alignment is devastating, especially after a shower of secondary missile petals. If a NonCon is tumbling after release of the MRV-petals (multiple re-entry vehicle petals, does it usually go in a fairly straight trajectory, being not a banana-shaped failure, but a planned short cylinder, highly stable if aligned base forward? | |||
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ALF, You have given some very interesting data. All sounds good. The paper media that Michael uses is very very consistant with its results. I've seen this personally. I have also seen the same results found in the media in the field on game. I know every animal shot is different and no two results will be perfectly the same. Now the ballistic gel would be a great test to compare. I would love the do the same tests with it as well. Ballistic gel is very expensive and hard to work with. One shot and you have to start all over. The time that Michael has spent on testing bullets is unbelieveable. The tons and tons of newspaper he has hauled and stacked then wetted for two days and then removed is more than just about anyone would do. The amount of time and money spent is more than I think anyone could really understand until they see just what it takes. If you or anyone else would like to pay for the ballistic gel to compare these tests with I'm sure Michael would be willing to do it. I would gladly help him with it also. Its just not realistic to use ballistic gel for the amount of testing Michael does. I know many of you have thanked Michael for his work and have really enjoyed reading all that he has posted. He did all of this for his own pleasure and knowledge. He has been nice enough to allow all of us to share his findings. I would like to say THANK YOU THANK YOU Michael for all you have done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sam | |||
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Picky picky.  I was mainly thinking about the fact that much less penetration and cavitation is needed for self-defense/law enforcement use. Because compared to dangerous game, us humans are really very dainty and delicate critters.  _________________________ Glenn | |||
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I have not read Mr. Fackler's report but I'm sure he hasn't shot as many solids as someone I know in ballistic gel, paper pulp or animals. Maybe I will see if I can find this report to see just what research was done if it isn't top secret. Sam | |||
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Alf The only one on this entire thread that is making any "Assumptions" is you! No where here will you find anyone saying, not I, not anyone, that the destruction of the test medium is equal to the destruction of animal tissue. The test medium is a medium comparing different bullets to each other--we all know that animal tissue is elastic and what does not tear, will snap back. The test medium is not elastic, it does not snap back into place, and is excellent to compare how bullets perform. I can tell you this from experience shooting the hell out of buffalo---if you have Bullet A and it destroys MORE test medium than Bullet B--Bullet A will also destroy MORE animal tissue. Equal to test medium---NO. You are making assumptions, no one else is. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well I found Mr. Fackler's report and have read it. It is a typical goverment report mostly about a M-16 rifle with little pointy bullets which has little or no bearing on what is being talked about on this thread. I have read reports like this before and there is some really good information in Hatcher's Notebook about wound chanels. I used to know the guy that sold the goats to the army to shoot for some of this type of testing but so what. Comparing a bullet wound from a 223 to a 500 nitro isn't what I think is being shown in this thread. I can tell you of reports from the same kind of experts that show how flat nose bullets work. A report is something some person sat at a desk and typed just like I'm typing this. I can type whatever I feel like typing and somebody will believe it whether it is fact or not. I can say this there is nothing better than shooting game with every kind of bullet you can find and deciding which works best for that game. No report or test is better but they all give some information so we can make a choice of what we think will work the best for what we are using it for. I don't normally like to get caught up in this kind of debate but I just had to say something. Patience Hell I Want To Kill Something!!!!!!!!! Sam | |||
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 I say Doc M needs the da Vinci robot equipment for assisting in experiments in his lab ... Ordnance gelatin is a poor substitute for live game animals, but at least it is refrigerated at a constant temperature and calibrated with a BB gun to assure some consistency shot to shot, but it is still not a good substitute for the multiple tissues layered and mixed in a game animal, in various states of metabolic activity and arousal, and presenting part, etc. ... Impossible with live game ... oops, gotta do some work ... | |||
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RIP Oh man, I don't know what all those gadgets and gizmos do, but they look good! No telling what I could do with something like these things!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK got a little story for you. A couple of months ago the "B" in the B&M brought me a litte Keltec thing in 380. Well before you start, my carry gun is always and has always been a 1911 of sorts, 45 ACP. For the last several years it has been one of the little Kimbers, short, light. On many occasions I do carry a 2 inch Taurus Lite in 45 Colt. But B brought me a little 380, he got a few of them and gave me one. Brought me a box of some sort of ammo as well. We took it to the range, shot 25 rds through it, bang bang bang without a hitch. I have been putting it in my pocket from time to time. It's tiny, weighs nothing and flat. Fits in my shirt pocket. I had been meaning to get an extra mag for it, but just kept forgetting. The other day I felt sorry for Midway since I am not buying standard bullets anymore, only North Fork and CEBs, so I figured I would get a magazine from them. They had them, got two, decided maybe I should get some ammo and shoot this things some more. I did, Winchester had a 100 pack, Magtech had a 250 pack, and I bought some Hornady Magic Hollow Points! They came in the day before yesterday, and I opened the Winchesters, looked at them, and lo and behold was the tiniest little "Flat Nose" FMJ I had ever seen! How cute I thought. Then my wheels started turning? The Magtechs were round nose FMJs. Both were 95 grs. Hmmmm? The wheels are rolling now. I HAD TO KNOW!!!!!!! My curious nature had won out--I had to know if there was a difference in the Winchester Flat Nose and the Magtech Round Nose!!!!!!! Today, while doing some pressure traces in the 458 B&M, I found out! Here it is! First the "Magic Hornady HPs"  Now the little round nose FMJs  And Now the GRAND FINALLY--The ALMIGHTY FLAT NOSE FMJ WINS ONCE AGAIN!!!!!!!!  And there you have it boys--It's just hard to beat those Flat Nose Solids!  I had to know! Doc M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, I had been wondering about how typical handgun bullets might behave in the medium, but I didn't really want to ask because you've got enough on your plate already. So thanks for the extra insight there. Hmm...I would have predicted 7-9 inches for a flat-nosed .380 in your medium. Close enough, I guess. I do know whenever I carried a .380 as a CCW, I preferred FMJ's to hollowpoints because of penetration concerns about JHP's.
Oh. The Fackler report about the 5.56. They tested those in ballistic gelatin IIRC. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Well, the rumor is now official on the Barnes site: "Virtually indestructible, Barnes Banded Solids are made from free-machining brass. They track straight and won’t deform or deflect on heavy bone. The deadliest, most dependable solids you can buy. . . . ew Banded Solids for 2011: Caliber Weight Description .338 Cal 250-grain Banded Solid Round Nose 9.3MM 250-grain Banded Solid Round Nose 9.3MM 286-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .375 Cal 270-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .375 Cal 300-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .375 Cal 350-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .416 Cal 350-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .416 Cal 400-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .422″ (404 JEFF) 400-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .458 Cal 450-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .458 Cal 500-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .504″ (505 GIBBS) 525-grain Banded Solid Round Nose .510″ (500 JEFF) 535-grain Banded Solid Round Nose" it's hard to believe that they can claim that roundnose will travel straight after all of these tests. Maybe the front roundnose slids off on impact leaving a flatnose for penetration? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Remember the military doesn't want to kill but to injure so it takes two men to carry one out of the fight. Alf, Ask your doctor friends how many patients survive with an entry and exit wound verses just an entry. Sam | |||
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Alf
Yes--And what is your point? The order of importance for Solids is 100% spot on--in the tests and IN THE FIELD as well. What does that have to do with your other statement that I replied to???
Yes--Once again, what is your point? I do not say that the trauma to test medium is the same size holes to animal tissue. What is your point?
You know the last time I had a need to "Kill" some undersea mines? I am trying to think, but I just can't come up with the last time? No, I just checked my trophy room, there are buffalo, lions, leopards, bears, elephant parts, all sorts of other critters, damned if I see one of those "Undersea Mines" anywhere? All due respect Alf, you are beginning to wear thin! Sorta like "Piss on a Rock Thin" Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well, there you have it! That is hard to believe! I am done with Barnes! That just goes to show you they don't know, they don't test, they don't have a clue. I reckon I won't be needing any of those, how about you guys? Don't reckon I need any more TSX bullets either! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Oh gees Glenn, the handguns are easy to do, 9mm, 38s, 45 acp and such, not much penetration there. Oh yes, FMJ or I like these little flat nose from Winchester! I did not even pay attention to what I was buying, just getting some. From time to time I will give a poke with some handgun bullets if you guys want, it's way easy when compared to doing the rifles. As most of you know I have been totally amazed at how the blades from the noncons penetrate, from shearing at 2 inches and penetrating to around 8 on average say. From 4-6 inches in the test medium. Deeper than the 95 gr FMJs in the 380! And these blades weigh in at or around 19 grs! They are slicing their way through from what I can tell. Interesting. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well, in about a year I'll be in the market for some more flatnose solids, 350 grains. Nosler only does 400 grains. Too long for a 16.5" twist. So I'll be checking out other sources, hopefully finding something close to $1/bullet. In the meantime, though, Barnes is coming out with blue-tipped-TSX, 350 grain, in .416. That is one thing they are doing right. It's still hard to digest that they are going back to roundnose!? I mean, Finn Aagard back in the late 80's had already warned about ASquare and maybe Barnes roundnose solids leaving his test box earlier that any of the other solids being tested. There's got to be a silver lining around somewhere in that solid dark cloud. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Let's see if I understood correctly. Barnes discontinues *all* their FN big bore bullets because of a feeding issue in one brand of rifle??? _________________________ Glenn | |||
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More likely cause they aren't competitive in the market so decided to make crap no one else will. | |||
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Could very well be! Way off topic, but the ballistic testing Fackler did on two versions of the military 5.56 generally showed a good bit of fragmentation at shallow penetration depths. The overall penetration wasn't really impressive either, never more than about 14 inches! (And remember this is in ballistic gelatin!) First the M855:  And then the M193:  It really makes me wonder, but I just might not know how to properly interpret these results. However IMO they don't appear to be ideal when it comes to wounding potential. _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Glenn, If memory serve Dr Fackler was working backward from a predetermined point. He was told here is our 5.56 nato; what is its wounding effect and what can we do to make it better. Since the LaGuardia tests with the .45, .38 etcetra the military has had many other requirements on its ammo than just terminal effectiveness. After all the PBI is the least important part of the Military.  SSR | |||
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No one, absolutely no one can make this statement stick: "track straight and won’t deform or deflect on heavy bone." Any, repeat any, commercially available bullet can occasionally deform and deflect on heavy bone, and any, repeat any, bullet can track off on occasion. In my opinion, the FN designs that resulted from the work on this site will track straight far more often than a RN but even this design can go off course on occasion for no discernable reason. As to the decision, this one smells like it came out of the legal department: upon advice of our legal department, we've stopped making FN bullets because they won't feed in brand X rifles. If some one gets hurt because of this feed problem and brand X gets sued, brand x will blame/sue us.  | |||
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Alf You just cant understand English-Dr Fackler WASNT attacked.I stated he was working under certain critiria that was not simply the effects of the bullet but included many other things beyond his control including political factors. How you can take a simple statement of fact and turn it into an attack is beyond comprehension. NO ONE SIAD HIS WORK HAD NO VALUE. JUST THAT WE WERE LOOKING AT DIFFERNT FACTORS. I submit that you actual READ what others post instead of answering what you assumed we were saying. It is bad enough to be talked down to-but you evidence no comprehension of whats going on here. You and the others of us here are talking apples and wombats--just no bearing on each other. You continually reference claims and statements that have not been made here. Go back ,read, and COMPREHEND what Michael and the others are doing-then come visit WITH us-not lecture. Then you will be as welcome as all others. SSR *and the chinese are ahead because they can use live test subjects you idiot. | |||
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I guess I'd better stock up on the old flat nose banded solids for my 500 Jeff now!  Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Alf has some sort of god complex? Holier than thou? Enjoys being crucified and hence by extension thinks Marty Fackler is being crucified, since he wants to pleasure his buddy too?  At least Alf is showing good sense in selecting the North Fork softpoint, but as for the flechette for "darting elephants":  Glenn, Thanks for the illustration: This is a nice explanation of why the Myth Busters got such poor water penetration with 50BMG bullets in a swimming pool. The FMJ spitzer (5.56 or 50BMG) is inherently unstable of course, has a solid, pointy nose and a base that is open, showing either steel or lead core (or tracer compound, depending on the bullet variety) at the heel. When it tumbles it comes apart when the base presents forward ... Surely the military experiments with FN penetrators for underwater mine killing went better. Monometal FN is the ticket.  When a NonCon blows up it does so by design, at the nose, then if it flips it becomes a stable penetrator, base forward, and there is a huge temporary wound cavity with corresponding large permanent wound cavity (as shown above), augmented by both the multiple secondary petal-missiles as well as the tumble-and-stabilize primary missile. Doc M, Alf is saying that wet newsprint and plastic lamination witness cards cannot be traumatized like flesh can be traumatized. I think that he is confused, and thinks that traumatization has something to do with sensibilities and somatic sensations, feelings:  Never a dull post on this thread, thanks all!  | |||
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Well, I've been thinking of alternative ways to get straight penetration accomplished. (PS: I'm talking about probabilities here, not absolute surety of straight penetration, since no will can ever guarantee that.) I mentioned having a cap slip off on impact. But that is probably not what they've done since they might have highlighted the fact. So what about -- hollowing out some of the backend of the solid, leaving the front more nose heavy? Could it be made to work? Maybe Sam and Michael can test this themselves, here. (However, I don't think that Barnes has a hollow rear because they would probably have mentioned that. Either the hollow rear would be visibly obvious, or they would need to have added a capping gas seal of the same metal to cosmetically wrap up the bullet.) Gets complicated, guessing what is going on or what might be done to fix it or to learn from it. Perhaps the 'legal' explanation is simplest, brand X rifle owners can't get the flatnose to feed and might sue. If that is the case I would expect the rest of the bullet making community to cry 'foul' and to expose brank X and to get them to fix their rifles. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Hi, RIP. Aha! I think I understand now! The spitzer point is unstable in dense/tough media, as opposed to air. It would be more stable when it goes base forward (in other words, the cylindrical area is the penetrating area.) And this also explains why FN bullets have such penetrating ability but with certain limitations (like >=65% meplat.) The more towards a spitzer-point the meplat becomes, the less stability it has and so the less penetration, unless it tumbles. When it comes to NonCons, after they shed their petals then they have mostly cylindrical surface area and hence are stable during penetration. I think.
Yes, and I thought everybody already knew that I was the one who was God. He's just Napoleon! 
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Chuck At one time I would have done the same thing. My original source of this info a week or so ago stated the same and how many did I want. I told him If they do this, then I don't want a damn thing from them again. Everyone knows I have been a Barnes Banded supporter, used them in the field, praised the nose profile, the works. By taking a tremendous step backwards in terminal performance shows me that these people don't have a clue, and don't care, all they care about is feeding in some cheap rifles, then I can easy toss them to the side. With access to better bullets, CEB and North Fork, then I can do without Barnes altogether, and forget their TSX as well in the process--and I have several great TSX loads for my B&Ms and they do a great job--But so does North Fork, CEB, and Swifts! So to hell with Barnes and their backwards ass logic! Like The BIG "R" some years ago, I am done with them, I will never go to the field with a Barnes bullet again. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Tanzan Sam did this some time ago with a Woodleigh. It did not work. Made no difference at all. The "the Nose does the Driving" "Front End Drive" only, you might say! HEH HEH.    Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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