Re: Alf The obfuscation and drama goes on...

"Whether they are Spitzers, RN's or FN's, they are still unstable per definition. "

http://forums.accuratereloadin...231075771#9231075771

While I do understand Physics and Mathematics...after all after over 30 yrs spent with those disciplines would require even a dumbass to understand something..I have trouble understanding this. IF THEY ARE ALL UNSTABLE WHY THEN DOES HE USE FLAT NOSE SOLIDS WHEN HIS LIFE MIGHT BE ON THE LINE??? SO ARE FLAT NOSE SOLIDS OF A CERTAIN TYPE "LESS UNSTABLE"? Sheesh...dunno why I even bother to read that stuff!

Keep up the good work DocM. And all the best to you n the family and Sam with his double for your Australia trip

Regards

Esskay

quote:

Re: Alf The obfuscation and drama goes on...

Page after page after page of drivel! Yes, I know by scientific standards that some of that drivel is good information, and it is valid to a point--but for gods sakes--how many pages on that can any one person tolerate? I see I am mentioned many times there, and in some instances it is inferred that I am a very uneducated, near moron status. That's fine with me, while they stand with their drivel and BS--we are all here using these very same bullets, and we are seeing extreme performance in the field, and very damned comparable to what we have tested here. The bullets have proven themselves right here, in that very test work that some have "Damned" as "pseudo science", but yet the ignorant ass cannot recognize the reports coming from the field on a regular basis from field tests, and animal tissue!

And below, please find yet another "Field Report" by an extremely experienced hunter, our very own Aaron Neilson!

Do go over to this wonderful report and congratulate Aaron on his adventure.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7911065771


A few comments from Aarons Report;

quote:

Weapons/Ammo: .375 RUM with Trijicon 2.5 - 10 x 56mm & 275 gr CEB Non-Cons / .600NE Verney-Carron Double, with 900 gr CEB non-cons & solids

quote:

I was already making another fan (Ian) of the Cutting Edge Bullets as the zebra dropped in his tracks. He had yet to hear of these new bullets, but he was paying attention now.

quote:

CUTTING EDGE BULLETS
I just wanted to take a minute to mention my continued experience with the CEB's. I am NOT any sort of bullet/gun/balistics expert, but I have shot roughly 40 DG animals - and easily over 200 animals throughout Africa. Fact is, I have never seen a bullet that performs like the CEB's, never! I've never seen a bullet that can penetrate like the CEB's, nothing I have ever seen/used has ever come close!

Below is a picture of a loaded .600NE, the bullet is the only bullet we retreived from the tuskless - the other two exited. My 3rd shot on the tuskless was in the right-rear hip, at roughly 50 - 60 yards. The bullet broke the right hip, penetrated all the way to the opposite left shoulder, through the left shoulder, and was protruding just inside the skin on the opposite side - left shoulder. Ian was amazed, and so was I. The bullet easily penetrated 7 feet of elephant, through heavy bone, etc. It was truly amazing, and further proof for me that I am using the best bullet made. Of course, that's just my opinion - but I do believe it to be sound.

There seems to be a LOT OF FIELD SUCCESS, not just Aaron, but many many many more and the story is always the same;

Fact is, I have never seen a bullet that performs like the CEB's, never!


These bullets were BORN--Right here, on this very Thread! They did not exist before this Thread--They did not exist before We tested them RIGHT HERE in front of your eyes, with this so called "pseudo science". We went through several generations, tweaking many things, meplat size, radius edges, nose profiles, degree of nose profile, bands, pressures, barrel strains, penetration, blades and many many more things that you watched right here take place, week after week, month after month until we tweaked them right into production, for everyones use! They were born and come from this so called "pseudo science"---but yet they are performing exactly as they did in the test work IN THE FIELD!!!!! How about that? I just reckon we got lucky is all, right? Could not have anything to do with all the hard work put into it with the test work, in my test medium! Why that would be impossible according to some! But yet, here we are regardless!

Michael

Any scientific hypothesis is simply the best current explaination about what is happening that enables you to do something about what is happening. Science moves forward by finding questions or events that the current hypothesis can no longer explain. I suggest Alf read "This Will Make You Smarter: 150 New Scientific Concepts to Improve Your Thinking" by John Brockman. However if he does so I expect him to exhibit confirmation bias, he will try and find things that agree what with what he already believes. No learning will take place.

People like Alf give science a BAD name.

Just shot a nyala bull and bushbuck ram with the 500 MDM. No pictures yet. I was using the 335 BBWnoncons with the
Attic tip. Shots were 50 yards or so. Of course with the caliber both animals dropped in their tracks. The buch buck was perfectly broadside, all 6 petals exited, insides were pure jelly. Nothing was recognizable. The nyala we of und all 6 petals under skin on off shoulder. I was shooting uphill on a quartering away shot. Shot went in low ans exited in front of front of off shoulder.

Heading to Zim later this week to do some work and some hunting, looking to try these things out on an eland.

Theoretically, all bullets are unstable. Practically, very few go unstable to the point of causing a problem in game. From my experience, stability problems and veering are a very rare occurrence with any type of solid bullet. I might say "Much ado about nothing!"

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Just shot a nyala bull and bushbuck ram with the 500 MDM. No pictures yet. I was using the 335 BBWnoncons with the
Attic tip. Shots were 50 yards or so. Of course with the caliber both animals dropped in their tracks. The buch buck was perfectly broadside, all 6 petals exited, insides were pure jelly. Nothing was recognizable. The nyala we of und all 6 petals under skin on off shoulder. I was shooting uphill on a quartering away shot. Shot went in low ans exited in front of front of off shoulder.

Heading to Zim later this week to do some work and some hunting, looking to try these things out on an eland.

Brent

Very Excellent. Bushbuck, Nyala, excellent size animals to study how deep the blades can go. Buffalo, eland, zebra and such, just a little large and blades found in the goo in the chest cavity. Blades on bushbuck, Nyala, all the way through to the other side. I had 9.3 blades go to the other side on hartebeast as well, but not punch through. .500 caliber blades, all 6 to the other side.

Good to hear from you, and good to hear the report.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Any scientific hypothesis is simply the best current explaination about what is happening that enables you to do something about what is happening. Science moves forward by finding questions or events that the current hypothesis can no longer explain. I suggest Alf read "This Will Make You Smarter: 150 New Scientific Concepts to Improve Your Thinking" by John Brockman. However if he does so I expect him to exhibit confirmation bias, he will try and find things that agree what with what he already believes. No learning will take place.

People like Alf give science a BAD name.

Aye..exactly..I was under the impression that "science" required an 'open mind'!

Brent-

Thanks for the report. Sounds like the hunting is excellent.

How's the B&M cartridge slide I designed working for you? I think you have the first one in action, although Michael, Carl and I will all be using ours in OZ, RSA and Zim within the next 11 days and Cross L later in August as well.

Keep well,

Mike

I have been using mine on practice sessions--

I love it--sure glad you talked me into the 10 rd--it fits great-comfortable in a truck and that gives me 15 rds when I step out the door of the truck. it works great with the 416s--since my 458SS is off being engraved I haven't tried it yet-but believe it will work with the SS's also

Thanks

Hey Sean,

Thanks for the kind remarks and I am glad you're happy with the B&M cartridge slide Henry made. I honestly thought you'd like the 10 rounder best. Everyone has been practicing with them in preparation of their upcoming hunts and all reports are positive and all are pleased with my design and Henry's leather work. You will be the 5th hunter to use one in the field.

B&M shooters: I have a couple slides remaining. PM me for details.

Mike,
The slides are working great. So far everybody in camp is aa bite envious. Cartridges slide out with ease, but tight enough to not fall out while rolling around.

Thanks Brent.

OK all ammo packed, and I am headed inside to throw some clothes in a bag! As for terminal performance we have some field work coming up, not just mine, but several others over the next few weeks.

Lionhunter, and partner Carl are headed to Africa while I am gone, they will be shooting 450 BBW#13 Solids, and 420 BBW#13 NonCons, both in 458 B&Ms. Lionhunters Son in Law, Beau, will be shooting a wonderful 416 Remington in a Winchester M70, SS gun, of which I have one exactly like it, Beau will be using 416 400 BBW#13 Solids and matching 370 NonCons on his trip.

CrossL, is headed across the pond with 416 B&M, 350 BBW#13 Solids and 325 NonCons, and the 458 B&M Super Short, I think with the 295 BBW#13 NonCons! Should be interesting, and is the first field outing for the 458 B&M Super Short.

Me and the boys, and Sam as we know are headed to Australia tomorrow. We have 50 buffalo to mop up with Paul Truccolo. The boys and I are taking 475 B&M, 450 BBW#13 Solids--Not Many, and lot's of 420 BBW#13 NOncons, 425 NOrth Fork CPS, and 425 North Fork Premiums. First field outing for the 475 B&M. Next the 475 B&M Super Short, 350 BBW#13 Solids, 320 BBW#13 NonCons, and 375 North Fork CPS, first field outing with the 475 Super Short. 50 B&M Super Short, 375 BBW#13 Solids, 335 BBW#13 NonCons, and 375 North Fork CPS. 50 Super Shorts have been to the field many times with other folks, in Alaska, USA, and Africa, but I have yet to put it to work myself. 9.3 B&M. Running 255 NonCons at 2650 fps. Have 6 blade versions, and the new 3 Blade Version to test. Taking just a few 280 Solids along. Sam will be working with 500 Nitro. New 475 NonCons and 510 Solids.

As we know right now, Brent is in Africa with his 500 MDM, used to be my rifle, and was there in April. Brent will be reporting back when he can I am sure.

Others? I am sure there are many, more out there too. Its going to be busy for the next few weeks.

One thing to remember please, I will be shutting off any notices on posts, and PMs while I am gone. This helps me with the enormous email load when I return. If you send a PM, I am not likely to know, and apologize before hand if I miss you. I am not taking a computer, where we are going I have no use for one. So you won't hear from us until after August the 10th. I will be thinking of all you guys however, and will get back as soon as I can to you on what we find. In the meantime, carry on, and the rest of you guys, and lurkers, get some work done too, and post your findings!

I want to bring this back to the top here, I don't want anyone to miss these two important reports, and facts.

Don't miss Aarons report below. It's great.

quote:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7911065771

CUTTING EDGE BULLETS
I just wanted to take a minute to mention my continued experience with the CEB's. I am NOT any sort of bullet/gun/balistics expert, but I have shot roughly 40 DG animals - and easily over 200 animals throughout Africa. Fact is, I have never seen a bullet that performs like the CEB's, never! I've never seen a bullet that can penetrate like the CEB's, nothing I have ever seen/used has ever come close!

Below is a picture of a loaded .600NE, the bullet is the only bullet we retreived from the tuskless - the other two exited. My 3rd shot on the tuskless was in the right-rear hip, at roughly 50 - 60 yards. The bullet broke the right hip, penetrated all the way to the opposite left shoulder, through the left shoulder, and was protruding just inside the skin on the opposite side - left shoulder. Ian was amazed, and so was I. The bullet easily penetrated 7 feet of elephant, through heavy bone, etc. It was truly amazing, and further proof for me that I am using the best bullet made. Of course, that's just my opinion - but I do believe it to be sound.

Brents report here about the blades exiting bushbuck, and the blades going completely to the other side on Nyala, is yet another excellent field report of how the blades do in fact penetrate, maybe Tee Wee Weiland is full of crap? Yes, I think so! No wait, I know Tee Wee is FULL OF CRAP.

quote:

Just shot a nyala bull and bushbuck ram with the 500 MDM. No pictures yet. I was using the 335 BBWnoncons with the
Attic tip. Shots were 50 yards or so. Of course with the caliber both animals dropped in their tracks. The buch buck was perfectly broadside, all 6 petals exited, insides were pure jelly. Nothing was recognizable. The nyala we of und all 6 petals under skin on off shoulder. I was shooting uphill on a quartering away shot. Shot went in low ans exited in front of front of off shoulder.

Heading to Zim later this week to do some work and some hunting, looking to try these things out on an eland.

Michael

Ah yes most definately forgot...Sam have a safe and prosperous hunt! Don't cluter Michael's zone up to much with DR filler... LOL...

Michael,

Hope you have a really enjoyable time down under.

465h&H

Remember to swap out your barrels to the down under twist
have an awesome time and and make sure to mark the bullets so you don't fight over who made what shot

http://www.ctia.com.cn/TungstenNews/2009/14627.html

Brenneke made what is known as the Quick Shok a while ago. Not as pretty and made of copper but along the same lines as the Non Con but closer to the Raptor. Four petals that fragment off in petals in "controlled fragmentation". The brass Non Cons and Raptors act differently and better it seems. would be interesting to do a comparison test. Copper seems to peel back where the brass seems to have a more dramatic terminal carnage affect.

quote:

Tee Wee

IMHO, all this talk about Tee Wee is exactly what he wants. He takes all these comments to his editor(s) and says, "see, I'm a writer that people talk about." Tee Wee has nothing of value to offer anymore. Therefore he tries to create contraversy in order to keep a job as a writer. Ignoring him will work. So instead of all these comments I suggest the silent treatment.

Ah yes, give Wee Wee the silent treatment... I'm in for that!

IMHO the magazine that published the article needs to be aware of the sloppy journalism and can rectify the disparaging of a an Excelent bullet design by an Excelent company with an actual test that would be worth reading by another author to show something new and exciting in the hunting and shooting world. Maybe get a writer who is familiar with the bullets and actually shot them at least. No sense in a decent magazine losing credibility over incorrect apples to oranges comparison and extrapolation.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
IMHO the magazine that published the article needs to be aware of the sloppy journalism and can rectify the disparaging of a an Excelent bullet design by an Excelent company with an actual test that would be worth reading by another author to show something new and exciting in the hunting and shooting world. Maybe get a writer who is familiar with the bullets and actually shot them at least. No sense in a decent magazine losing credibility over incorrect apples to oranges comparison and extrapolation.

While true, perhaps losing readership to magazines that accurately report test results will have a greater impact upon the magazine's editorial staff than letters of complaint. One could hope wee wee would be terminated or at a minimum throughly reamed out...

I first reported on the tee wee article in handloader AND the shill article that followed the next month.. My subscription is up for renewal. It will not be renewed and the editor will get a terse letter explaining why. Losing long term subscribers will get attention.

I don't like the fact that any writer is a shill for any product or even a concept to protect a product. Having said that, I have emailed back and forth with Terry in the past about a completely different subject (in fact before I even knew about CEBs etc) and he was more than cordial to write back a few times. I would suggest contact him directly to see what he has to say.

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
I first reported on the tee wee article in handloader AND the shill article that followed the next month.. My subscription is up for renewal. It will not be renewed and the editor will get a terse letter explaining why. Losing long term subscribers will get attention.

Good on ya!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I don't like the fact that any writer is a shill for any product or even a concept to protect a product. Having said that, I have emailed back and forth with Terry in the past about a completely different subject (in fact before I even knew about CEBs etc) and he was more than cordial to write back a few times. I would suggest contact him directly to see what he has to say.

Well may I suggest you tell him to actually test the bullets before publicly denegrate them and make himself look like an over wise blowhard. He has dug himself a deep hole that will be tough to get out without a heaping portion of crow.

Dan just shipped me a bunch of the yarmulke-like CEB-HP caps for my .375 and .416 guns. I was getting 95% feeding with an occasional glitch, but now I'm getting 100% trouble-free feeding.

Try them - they work!! They provide the feeding of a RN but with CEB-HP terminal performance.

Regards, AIU

The universe has a cruel master named Murphy. If your life or hunt depended on it I would still get a good smith to locate your feeding issue without tips. Having more options is always good! Three tip types is awesome. This might be good in say a having one bullet for your 35 Whelen and 35 Remington with just different or no tips.

As we are approaching 10,000 posts I tried to calculate how many original words minus quotes on this thread. The novel War and Peace was over 560,000 The Bible Old and New Testament has 774,746 words for reference. I think this thread is approaching 750,000 words with the average post being 75 words. Would be longer if Alf stopped deleting posts
To say this is the bible on terminal performance would be fairly accurate in length and almost as bloody as War and Peace lol.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Dan just shipped me a bunch of the yarmulke-like CEB-HP caps for my .375 and .416 guns. I was getting 95% feeding with an occasional glitch, but now I'm getting 100% trouble-free feeding.

Try them - they work!! They provide the feeding of a RN but with CEB-HP terminal performance.

Regards, AIU

Good and Kosher!

After all the experiminting we are back to a RN design. Makes me proud!



465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
After all the experiminting we are back to a RN design. Makes me proud!



465H&H

H,

I believe the major difference is that if your DR was not performing correctly mechanically you would not continue to use the malfunctioning DR UNLESS you were on a hunt and had no other option. Otherwise you would have your malfunctioning DR visit your personal DR gunsmith doctor to identify the problem and FIX the problem. RN bullets to you are a choice you chose or not chose to use.

The 'typical' mechanically malfunctioning bolt rifle guy does not send the malfunctioning BR to the BR doctor to identify the problem and fix it whether they are on a hunt or just at the rifle range. Instead they use RN bullets as that, or perhaps a spitzer bullet, is all that will cycle from magazine to chamber reliably and perhaps even complain about how bad those non-cycling bullets are... In fact I seem to recollect some of those comments after Barnes introduced their FN BND SLD...

Major difference detween you H and the typical BR guy... Though I will admit up front that DR guys are much more selective regarding the quality of the gun doctor that they will allow to diagnose and fix their DR vis-a-vis who the typical BR guy will visit...

But now with RN Caps the circle is complete...

DocM & Sam,

Hope you guys are on the ground, a pity you did not take your computer with you..live updates would have been great.

Happy hunting oops "testing"

Regards

Relying on Aborigines using their famed ESP to update the TBP thread.
Picking up some exciting stuff
ESP... The original Internet lol.
Waiting eagerly to hear an update on the trident noncons performance.

Slightly off topic but interesting...
Would be cool to see a bullet mould made in all calibers matching the BBW 13 solids, brass Non Cons and Raptors. Bands would be the same too for same loading practice.
A screw in hexagon stud to create the hollow point. Use the same tips you would in the Raptors for higher BC and expansion aid.
Hard cast lead might create the same six star pattern or at least controlled shearing into six petals and solid base. Cast Non Con. This could be awesome for deadly pistol rounds, Hunting and plinking.
Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Slightly off topic but interesting...
Would be cool to see a bullet mould made in all calibers matching the BBW 13 solids, brass Non Cons and Raptors. Bands would be the same too for same loading practice.
A screw in hexagon stud to create the hollow point. Use the same tips you would in the Raptors for higher BC and expansion aid.
Hard cast lead might create the same six star pattern or at least controlled shearing into six petals and solid base. Cast Non Con. This could be awesome for deadly pistol rounds, Hunting and plinking.
Any thoughts?

It will not just be a "practice CEB", difference in weight will be to gteat. The HP will not release becase of the hex pin.

If you want a cheaper CEB bullet, buy in BULK!

Keith

Would the hex pin need to be tapered so it releases? If it does not work a solid cast would still be interesting.

quote:

a solid cast would still be interesting.

Boomie, that is almost every FN, LFN, and WFN cast bullet out there. Veral Smith figured out that big flat nosed casr bullets work better than other cast bullet designs, for teminal damage on game animal a LONG time ago.

Also if the cast bullets have bands are too narrow(NF, CEB) they will stripout on the rifling and foul the barrel.

Keith

I shot several impala yesterday and a blue wildebeest yesterday with the 500MDM using the 335 noncons with plastic tips. All6 petals exited on impala, with the exception of one that I hit right on front side shoulder, only had two petal exit on that one. Wildebeest was a different story. First shot hit brush, had a keyhole entrance would on front shouter. Bullet still exited and broke off side back leg. The bull was facing on a hard angle to me. It required a finisher. Bullet did not get to open up and preform.

http://www.intlmidway.com/intl...Search=Search_Button

So now it seems you can order ESP Raptors not only on Midway USA but Midway International! Awesome!