quote:

And Tanz, I ain't so sure about 416 caliber, I just said start there and work your way up!!!!!



Michael

You're not so sure cuz you don't think in terms of reaching out, far, and touching that animal hard. (Sort of like a hunter who grabs a 270W or 30-06 for a smalldeer, only upgraded for Africa. [The 375 is your 243 in this analogy].) I think in terms of a nice little antelope gun at 300 yards. 416 Rigby with 350 grains at 2800 fps and MOA is a nice gun. Now a 500 is a nice little gun under 200 yards. It makes a nice twosome but I'm not yet ready to adopt the 500 as 'allaround'. Maybe in a year or two with some field use of a new rifle.

And the 450Rigby (ballistically = 460Weatherby) would be a nice compromise on this issue. Absolutely. Sometimes perspectives depend on where a person starts from. If one starts from a 416Rigby, then a 450 Rigby doesn't offer 'that much' improvement. So one jumps to a 500 Mbogo, AccRel, or MDM. But for those who start at 375 and see the "error of their ways " then the 416 doesn't offer 'that much more' and the 458's look very attractive. Thirty years ago someone I know was using a 338 quite happily, with no real incentive for a 375 [338 had better bullets at the time, including 300 grainers if wanted] or 458 [too slow], but when the 416's started to make a comeback and some noise at the end of the 80's notice was taken for a move up to 416. A handloaded 416Rig is as flat as a 338, with more power than a 458Win.

Tanz:

Any chance you might be looking for a 450 Dakota? I have a beautiful full custom made by AHR with upgraded wood personally selected by Wayne. I have dies and a lifetime supply of brass to go with it.

Thanks, Dave, that sounds like a wonderful rifle.
Maybe like a chateau champagne on a beer pocketbook.

My idea of a 450Dakota/450Rigby is to buy a used CZ-Lott and have the boltface enlarged, feeding smoothed out, and the chamber re-done.
At the moment I'm re-doing the 500 AccRel to shoot non-cons and GSC accurately, so it's ready for Fall 2013.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Six blades. Three blades. C'mon Michael, if you are going to use a medium bore for thick skinned game, quit screwing around with those non cons. Put a North Fork Cup Point Solid in the tube and some BBW#13s in the magazine.

Dave

First order of business to sort out!

I AIN"T GONNA BE USING NO RAT GUNS FOR THICK SKINNED GAME---PERIOD!!!!!

Rat guns are 9.3 and 375--when considering BUFFALO!

Oh I had plenty of bullet with the NonCons, and it would have been no different with North Forks, and you know I love North Fork, but what I did not have was "enough Caliber", very plainly pointed out by all. How many times have you heard me say this "It ain't the cartridge, It ain't the rifle, It's the BULLET!" Ok, now, in this ONE instance I am going to say this "It Ain't The Bullet (this time) it's the Caliber" LOL.......................

Now, truth of the matter, I had intended on shooting a bull with the 9.3. But after it being so not impressive on cows, I said to hell with it, get a real caliber rifle, my 475 B&M. And on the two bulls I shot, and those redskins I put the "Indian Stalk" on, I used the 475 B&M to good effect.

Oh, and on my big bad bull I took, I used the .474 caliber 425 gr North Fork Cup Point.



Tanz, fellow ought not to be shooting buffalo over 25 yards! Although I have to admit, I have murdered a few at 50 yards or so, and yes, I am ashamed of that!

Michael

Hey fellas, there is a new article on CEB in the October issue of Handloader by John Haviland. It seems to be pretty favorable, but when he decided to test the HP petal dispersion, he used DRY newspaper for the test medium. Of course this limited their ability to fly away from the original wound channel, so he was not as impressed as he should be.

Still, some progress being made with the press.

Michael, do you have a pic of the two HP styles. The regular 6 blade and the new 3 blade. Also, does the same tip fir both bullets?

Keith

Whelen

For sure, Haviland using dry newspaper, and not sure what compression, could not get the full effect of how the bullets worked. And especially with the smaller caliber, I think 6.5, those blades stay very close to center bullet, and unless you have witness cards, and wet print, you would never see the dispersion of the blades. But, overall, it was not a bad article.

Keith

No, I don't have a photo, and not sure I could get a good one. It's hard to tell, especially with failing eyes! Look close and you can see the difference in the 3 vs 6 in the cavity. And the same tips work in both 3 or 6, equally well.

I don't know what Dan intends to do, we spoke about it yesterday. I told Dan I did not see a reason to have a 6 blade and 3 blade 9.3 or 375 BBW#13 NonCon. I suggested a 3 blade only NonCon, which is 255 in 9.3 and 275 in 375 for buffalo. Both calibers have ESP Raptors for everything else, with 6 blades. Use the BBW#13 NonCon 3 blade for heavy, ESP Raptors 6 blades for everything else. So we will see what he decides.

Michael

Dave and Tanz, I was just hacking on you, you know! LOL................

Good Night Boys!

Michael

Quick! Someone better tell Saeed before his next safari that he's going without proper armament.

Somehow, I think that the several hundred buffalo he's killed with his .375 might say he was adequately armed.

375's are just fine for buffalo. Shot placement means just about everything.

I believe that the .338 was Jose Pardal's favorite buffalo gun---shot many hundreds.

I've only shot about 45 buffalo---not even a good year for Saeed! I've used 300winmag to 500NE. Placement of the first shot means almost everything.

Saeed... How about using some 375 Raptors or non cons on your buff hunts? I know you like to roll your own bullets but I'd be curious about your opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Quick! Someone better tell Saeed before his next safari that he's going without proper armament.

Somehow, I think that the several hundred buffalo he's killed with his .375 might say he was adequately armed.

375's are just fine for buffalo. Shot placement means just about everything.

I believe that the .338 was Jose Pardal's favorite buffalo gun---shot many hundreds.

I've only shot about 45 buffalo---not even a good year for Saeed! I've used 300winmag to 500NE. Placement of the first shot means almost everything.

Michael from post above.

quote:

But.......and it's a BIG BUT--Now we move to Buffalo! Neither 9.3 nor 375 is a proper caliber for buffalo! End of Story! Oh, yes, they will kill buffalo if you use the very best of buffalo bullets, and you have the very best of shot placement. But don't expect either of these mediums to "Flatten" buffalo, ain't gonna happen with common shots, and not CNC shots. Hell, can kill them with a 223 with the right bullet, eventually! Buffalo--Bigger Is Better!

Didn't say that 9.3/375 could not kill one! Like I said, I have a 223 bullet here I can kill them with all day long, one shot kills, but that don't make a 223 a buffalo caliber!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
Quick! Someone better tell Saeed before his next safari that he's going without proper armament.

Somehow, I think that the several hundred buffalo he's killed with his .375 might say he was adequately armed.

375's are just fine for buffalo. Shot placement means just about everything.

I believe that the .338 was Jose Pardal's favorite buffalo gun---shot many hundreds.

I've only shot about 45 buffalo---not even a good year for Saeed! I've used 300winmag to 500NE. Placement of the first shot means almost everything.

Michael from post above.

quote:

But.......and it's a BIG BUT--Now we move to Buffalo! Neither 9.3 nor 375 is a proper caliber for buffalo! End of Story! Oh, yes, they will kill buffalo if you use the very best of buffalo bullets, and you have the very best of shot placement. But don't expect either of these mediums to "Flatten" buffalo, ain't gonna happen with common shots, and not CNC shots. Hell, can kill them with a 223 with the right bullet, eventually! Buffalo--Bigger Is Better!

Didn't say that 9.3/375 could not kill one! Like I said, I have a 223 bullet here I can kill them with all day long, one shot kills, but that don't make a 223 a buffalo caliber!

Michael

Michael,

What is you definition of a proper buffalo rifle?

465H&H

quote:

Michael,

What is you definition of a proper buffalo rifle?

465H&H

Rifle? Clarify, I think you mean caliber or cartridge perhaps?

Rifle, everyone knows that, it is one of my B&Ms, short, fast handy, plenty of power, light, buffalo fighting machine!

Cartridge--something in .458 to .500--excluding big heavy 12-15 lb rifles then you can go right on up in caliber as much as you can stand.

Caliber---Well, 416 as minimum and up to whatever you can carry. Me personally, .458-.500.

9.3 and 375 can bitch moan and groan all you want to, your caliber is not as effective on buffalo as bigger bores. Yes they will kill buffalo, killed millions if you want to say so, but so have a lot of other things. Didn't say you could not kill one, said they are not as effective as larger caliber. And they are NOT. End of Story.

M

quote:

Michael,

What is you definition of a proper buffalo rifle?

465H&H

OK, I will bite again.......

Winchester M70, Overall Length 39 inches, 7.5-8 lbs depending on stock, 18-19 inch barrel, .500 caliber
Shooting 450 BBW#13 NonCons, 450 North Fork CPS--anything 2250-2450 fps. Knocks buffalo in the dirt.

For size, carry, handling, power, delivery, this is damned hard to beat. Yep, you can get more, but more costs in size and handling.

Michael

I have some verbal reports on buffalo and other critters, will expand on more in the morning.

Michael

Sorry Michael, I should have been more clear with my question. What doesn't a 375 due that makes it unsuitable for buff? I think I know what you will say but you know how reliable "I think is"!

465H&H

Michael, on these big boomers (458 B&M and up) do you notice any difference in recoil between your wood stock rifles and the ones with the Winchester synthetic Shadow stocks?

Reason I ask it that I just got a REAL rat gun, a 270 WSM Shadow, and a 140 at 3200 fps has got NO felt recoil at all. I thought these fast little guys were supposed to kick, but this thing is like a 243. I just wondered if the synthetic Shadow stock with that nice squishy recoil pad made that much of a difference.

I hope this site does not crash hitting 10,000 posts
Like the Y2K bug lol. Anyone back this thread up?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Sorry Michael, I should have been more clear with my question. What doesn't a 375 due that makes it unsuitable for buff? I think I know what you will say but you know how reliable "I think is"!

465H&H

465HH--Are you hitting the Sake again?

"due"

LOL..............................

I hit the sake this past weekend a bit--Damn, it is sweet! Love that stuff! Also got myself a little jar of white stuff put back, sipping stuff you know. And, friend down the road brought me some home made Peach Brandy, and it's mighty fine for sipping too. Straight out of the jar, like heathens! Yep!

To your question now, that important matters are to the side. 375. OK, now let it be known, written down as fact for all--I Have never in my life shot a buffalo with a 375 anything, don't own one. However, I have seen a few shot with 375 HH. I have personally shot one waterbuck with a 375 HH belonging to Rich Cooke--My rifles had not arrived for 3 days, and I decided to shoot this critter, and the up side was that it was a Winchester M70. I did shoot a couple of Australian, Asiatic, cows with 9.3 B&M. There was nothing impressive about any of this. There was no shock value, no knockdown knockout power, not much reaction to taking the hits, nothing. Even with good bullets, there was just not much to it. Killed them? Of course they did, except in one case on buffalo and my 50 B&M finished the ordeal, with much better results.

And, again, while I did not say "unsuitable" for buffalo, I stated not as effective as larger bore, larger calibers. If folks want to shoot buffalo with 9.3 or 375, fine with me, that is their problem in the end, hell they can shoot them with anything they want. On this point, I am saying that I will not be doing so as I believe there are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE calibers for buffalo. Shoot old buff with either 9.3 or 375, hit right, good bullet, he is going to pile up and die after a bit of a run. But just don't expect to knock hell out of him and put him in the dirt quickly.

Bigger calibers cut bigger holes, bigger holes are very good in ole buff. Buff are not to be taken lightly, and one wants to hit them as hard as possible. I love buffalo--Without a doubt, my very most favorite animal to do battle with!

So, here is the deal, Michael don't care for 9.3 or 375 for buffalo, anyone else can do what you please. Right, wrong, or in between, is of little consequence. You can listen, or call me full of BS, is of little consequence. I rather hit them myself with 458 to .500 caliber, with the best bullet I can, I want exits--two holes, and I want to destroy everything in between entrance and exit. I think .458 + does that just fine, if you hit them in the right place. I will never hunt again with anything but a BBW#13 NonCon, or one of my North Fork Expanding CPS bullets. Sometimes depending on my cartridge, I will back them with either BBW#13 Solids or new North Fork FPS Solids. This is proper buffalo medicine.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by whelenite:
Michael, on these big boomers (458 B&M and up) do you notice any difference in recoil between your wood stock rifles and the ones with the Winchester synthetic Shadow stocks?

Reason I ask it that I just got a REAL rat gun, a 270 WSM Shadow, and a 140 at 3200 fps has got NO felt recoil at all. I thought these fast little guys were supposed to kick, but this thing is like a 243. I just wondered if the synthetic Shadow stock with that nice squishy recoil pad made that much of a difference.

Whelen

I really like that little Ultimate cheap stock! I hate synthetics. But this stock is the cats ass buddy! A 9.3 or 416 B&M with Ultimate stock comes in at 6.75-7 lbs 20 inch barrel. You can shoot them all day long with the heaviest of loads and recoil is nothing. Move to 458-50 B&M, 18 inch barrels they come in at 6.5 lbs. I have a 458 B&M Ultimate set up as an Alaskan rifle, wet weather, and it works with 300-400 gr bullets, recoil is not an issue, even with 400s at 2350 fps. But if you move up to heavier bullets, heavier loads, 450 gr +, you begin to notice things. What gets me is the bolt handle knocks the skin off my trigger finger with these loads. Every time. This begins to get a little hateful. So if I shoot 458-.500 with the Ultimate stock, heavy bullets, I wrap that finger with duct tape, adds to my skin, and keeps the bolt from knocking it off! The Wood stocks do not do this. That is the only difference I have seen between them. Want to talk about something easy to carry all day, 458 B&M 18 inch gun, Ultimate stock--perfect Alaskan rig!

Michael

OK, we have been talking about Buffalo and calibers. I stated above, start at 416 and go up for buffalo calibers. I will stick to that. Me personally, I stand at .458 to .500, as stated. I just don't have a lot of experience with 416s. I shot one buffalo cow with 416 B&M back in 2007. Did a good job, dead buffalo in 30 yards with a 350 gr Swift A Frame at that time. That is the extent of my experience with 416 on buffalo.

We have been getting excellent reports from many others using the 416 325 gr BBW#13 NonCon at 2500 fps or better. Some of these reports have been extreme, dropping buff in their tracks, or going for 20 yds or so and piling up stone cold. There have been no bad reports on 416 that I know of.

Lionhunter's Son in Law, Beau, used a 416 Remington, 370 BBW#13 NonCon at 2450 fps on his buffalo recently. Frontal chest shot, destroyed heart and related areas, and I think the remaining bullet was recovered other side of the stomach??? Lionhunter can join in and correct or confirm any of this. Buff did not go far as I recall, 20 yds or so, end of story.

Here is Beau's buffalo;



Looks like a happy young man to me! So much so, I think Lionhunter may have now created a new hunting partner! Which is a good thing!

Mike sent this photo of the heart/lungs



Looks like a sizable hole in the heart, and lot's of destruction around the area, and also looks like some blades at work as well.

The recovered bullet.




Maybe Mike can chime in later today and tell us how the buffalo reacted to taking the shot? Would be interesting to know about that part of it.

Michael

One last thing this morning, I created a new page on the B&M website. Articles. There are getting to be more and more of these, concerning the B&Ms and the Cutting Edge Bullets. I am posting this here for the CEB Articles, I have 3, one by Daryl Lenkic in Australian Shooter, the new one in Handloader Magazine, and the Precision Shooting Article from a month or so ago. All pdf downloadable. If you want, go get them.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/Articles.html

Just FYI

Michael

Michael,

250 pages... that's quite a feat!

We had talked about high speed video recently and I hope that it will be coming in the future. During your testing have you pulled and taken pictures of the media at various intervals though the bullets path? Let's say a 1/8-1/4 segment of of media every four to six inches. It would be interesting to get an inside look at the bullet's behavior.

Eric

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Good Morning Guys and Gals!

What do I recommend? If you are going to hunt buffalo, start at 416 and work your way UP! If you are a little girl get yourself a 9.3 or 375 for buffalo. If you are a "Sissy Boy", just go hunt some squirrels with your 22lr.





Michael

And when you get through puberty you are ready to try something more than the 450, 470 and 500B&M.

Haven't had much time to read through all of the recent field results but it seems that success follows the well designed, lab and field tested CEB bullets.

They'll be coming with me on my next safari as I have my own personal successes as well as all of those who have used them as support for my choice.

Beau's .416Rem 370gr BBW#13 NonCon bullet, as shown above, was recovered in the rear intestine of his Buff bull. The Buff was feeding and Beau waited for him to lift his head with a mouthful of grass and turn his head to the left before he took a perfect heart shot into the frontal chest cavity. I took the pic of the heart and surrounding gore while we watched the Buff being skinned out at camp, following the intact recovery. The surrounding tissue damage was clearly caused by the petals from the bullet and were unrecoverable. The death bellow was heard 46 seconds after the shot, followed by a second bellow 8 seconds later. The shot is on video. The Buff hunched at the shot and moved off less than 30 yards before laying up and giving out the bellow. Two insurance shots were paid, with no recovered bullets.

I am, of course, very proud of Beau's performance on his first DG species. He exercised patience and remembered all the drills to wait for and place a perfect shot.

BTW, I am in total agreement with Michael on the use of the .375 for DG and have held that opinion since 1998. You can shoot whatever caliber you like, but when things go wrong, as they inevitably will if you hunt DG long enough, a larger caliber will serve better to sort things out, without question.

Can you post the video?
Would be great to see.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Can you post the video?
Would be great to see.

I only viewed the video of Beau's Buff and my Ele twice while in camp. We will not have the completed video of the safari until sometime around Christmas. Both kill shots were recorded well by our Safari Classics cameraman Blake.

Michael,

I know you feel otherwise, but I'm going to suggest that that .416 370 gr. Non Con HP is an all around DG Africa bullet, even for elephant, especially when fired at 2800 fps. That core has enough mass to be lethal and very deep penetrating. Dan has told me that the .416 Non Con HP is among the most deeply penetrating from the entire family of Non Cons.

Regards, AIU

Heh Michael,
Just wanted to congratulate you and yours for breaking 250 pages worth of good info!
Finally a thread worth reading.
Keep it going buddy!
Dennis

I see we rolled over 10000 posts--and it looks like Lionhunter Won the prize for Post # 10000 as I calculate. Prize? Oh well.........

Also, page 251, who would have thought, and we keep on moving!

quote:

And when you get through puberty you are ready to try something more than the 450, 470 and 500B&M.

Come on Doc, you know better, me, grow up? No way! Not in this life! Too much fun, being a kid! LOL..............

quote:

The Buff hunched at the shot and moved off less than 30 yards before laying up and giving out the bellow. Two insurance shots were paid, with no recovered bullets.

That was a very sick buffalo, Mike. They might run sometimes to begin with, but can't go far before it catches up with them.


Carl did not have a lot to say about Eric and his buff, at least not yet, still in comms with Carl. I don't recall which bullet Carl had loaded for the 416 that Eric used? 325 or 370, I want to think maybe it was a 325 #13???

quote:

Eric took his buff the first morning head on. We did recover that 416 in the guts. Petals had peeled away down to the solid core.

Thats about all I got so far on that one.

Again, seems 416 is doing just fine on buffalo.

Our own CrossL leaves next week with his 416 B&M with the 350/325 combo, elephant and buffalo on his list in Zimbabwe. We will get a big report from that on his return I am sure.

More stuff coming in all the time.

This is from our friend Mark Thornell. Mark hunted with Andrew and Corris in Zimbabwe, and got his elephant one of the days we were flying to Australia. Mark used a Sabatti Double, 450 Nitro, shooting 480 BBW#13 Solids.

Below is what Mark sent to me;

quote:

I had a wonderful time and took a nice bull at seven yards. It was probably my most exciting hunt and a fitting conclusion of my big 5 quest. I can really see how people get addicted to elephant hunting. Corris was a great host and we had a lot of fun. I really hope to get back to his place and shoot buffalo sometime. The Cutting Edge bullets worked perfectly. The side brain shot was a complete pass-through with a perfect straight line, with no deflection. An insurance shot while on the ground penetrated at least eight feet and was recovered under the off side. That bullet is pristine and could be loaded again. I want to thank you for all your help and for putting me on to Cutting Edge.

Congratulations again Mark.




That's it for me tonight guys, damn near dark here, time for me to roost!

Michael

Damn good stuff from everyone.

Nothing like the feeling when it all comes together for a win for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Heh Michael,
Just wanted to congratulate you and yours for breaking 250 pages worth of good info!
Finally a thread worth reading.
Keep it going buddy!
Dennis

Thanks Dennis! I think many have got some good out of it, and that's what it is all about.

M

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Michael,

I know you feel otherwise, but I'm going to suggest that that .416 370 gr. Non Con HP is an all around DG Africa bullet, even for elephant, especially when fired at 2800 fps. That core has enough mass to be lethal and very deep penetrating. Dan has told me that the .416 Non Con HP is among the most deeply penetrating from the entire family of Non Cons.

Regards, AIU

AIU. Yes, you would be correct. I do feel otherwise. I think without some very serious work that a NonCon on elephant could be a mistake. For the most part, I FEEL that it will do so in many circumstances, on medium to small tuskless, cows, bulls, where the head is not so large, then it might not be much of an issue. But a BIG BRAWNY FULL GROWN BULL ELEPHANT HEAD? For sure, I want a big brawny Solid--of the BBW#13 variety, or New North Fork. Solid Solid Solid. This is what they are for, this is their job, and one they do extremely well. To be honest with all, I really see no reason to worry, or concern about a NonCon on elephant. When we have the very best there is right now already, and it's proving itself every single season that passes, more and more.

Until the mighty NonCon, I was using solids as backup for everything, and anything, regardless. There has been no one in the world that used solids more than I have in the field. Not just buffalo, everything, kudu, bear, zebra, anything and all things as backups to the first soft. Worked to, extremely well. But with todays BBW#13 NonCon I don't find that needed any longer with the exception of perhaps some cartridges with buffalo, but not all cartridges. But when it comes to elephant, I will stay with a rifle full of proper solids, which there are two now that are top end.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Michael,

I know you feel otherwise, but I'm going to suggest that that .416 370 gr. Non Con HP is an all around DG Africa bullet, even for elephant, especially when fired at 2800 fps. That core has enough mass to be lethal and very deep penetrating. Dan has told me that the .416 Non Con HP is among the most deeply penetrating from the entire family of Non Cons.

Regards, AIU

AIU. Yes, you would be correct. I do feel otherwise. I think without some very serious work that a NonCon on elephant could be a mistake. For the most part, I FEEL that it will do so in many circumstances, on medium to small tuskless, cows, bulls, where the head is not so large, then it might not be much of an issue. But a BIG BRAWNY FULL GROWN BULL ELEPHANT HEAD? For sure, I want a big brawny Solid--of the BBW#13 variety, or New North Fork. Solid Solid Solid. This is what they are for, this is their job, and one they do extremely well. To be honest with all, I really see no reason to worry, or concern about a NonCon on elephant. When we have the very best there is right now already, and it's proving itself every single season that passes, more and more.

Until the mighty NonCon, I was using solids as backup for everything, and anything, regardless. There has been no one in the world that used solids more than I have in the field. Not just buffalo, everything, kudu, bear, zebra, anything and all things as backups to the first soft. Worked to, extremely well. But with todays BBW#13 NonCon I don't find that needed any longer with the exception of perhaps some cartridges with buffalo, but not all cartridges. But when it comes to elephant, I will stay with a rifle full of proper solids, which there are two now that are top end.
H
Michael

It is all about using the right tool for the job. You can use a ball-peen hammer for finish nails on crown molding and it would work but there are far better hammers for that job.
Michael Sam and Dan have brought us better tools that we have ever had before but the varieties have been tailored to the job intended.
I'm a huge fan of the 416 and of Non-Cons but I'd say use the right tool for the job and for elephant, 100% of experienced hunters, regardless of their bullet and caliber preference, recommend solids.

On Carl's elephant it appears he hit a bit high, missed the brain. Using his 458 B&M and a 450 BBW#13 Solid, and Eric using 416 Remington (I Think) and either 400 or 350 BBW#13 Solids, not sure which on that. Here is what Carl had to say;

quote:

My elephant was not a good shot as I hit it above the earhole but the bullet went entirely through the head. Shot it then in the heart lung area. We never recovered any bullets from the ele. Eric put a 416 in to the side plus mine in the side all went through it.

quote:

On the elephant both the 416 and 458 solids went threw and threw from the side

Doing exactly what they are supposed to do. I do believe in penetration, always have, always will. And penetrate these do. Two holes are better than one. Do watch the backside, but you have to do that anyway, so might as well have the best there is.

Michael

Carl and his family spent some time in South Africa doing some plains game shooting before he and Mike left for Zimbabwe for buffalo and elephant. Carl was shooting 300 Win Mag and 130 ESP Raptors. He found a really good load that worked for his rifle after just a bit of trial and error. And in the end, I think he was pleased with the results. Carl had this to say about the 130 ESP Raptor;

quote:

The 130 gr tipped non-con were amazing. Everything we hit with that bullet went to the ground immediately. A couple were not dead and one I had to put another small caliber round into it. I took a Cape Eland head on at less than 100 yards and dropped him like a poleaxe had hit him between the eyes. He bled out thought the wound channel for 5 minutes with a steady stream of blood poring out of him. I mean a pencil diameter stream of blood. I've never seen that before.
We shot 2 zebras, one wildebeest, the cape eland, a roan , a warthog head on to see if we could push the bullet all the way thought him but the skull defected the bullet enough that it came out above the front shoulder. The PH wants some of those bullets for his 300. I left what we had left for him.

quote:

Those 308 bullets were amazing. I couldn't believe how critters were knocked off their feet on first shots. African animals are tuff cookies and can take one bullet after another if the adrenaline is pumping.- but with these bullets down they go on first good hits.

quote:

I'm going to see if I can get the 100gr 308's to shoot in the 300 and use it for deer in Nov. I'm excited to see what happens.

Carl

PS. I'll send you the pictures of the stream of blood coming out of the eland. We all were stun to see this stream of blood having never ever to see this happening.

I don't know, but if I had to guess I would say Carl was rather pleased with the end result.

Michael

Congrates to Mike, Beau and Mark. Glad to see more people using the #13s with same results.

After seeing how the Non cons performed on buffalo in Australia from several different calibers including the super shorts I agree with Michael. The non con is most cases does more damage than a conventional soft point and penetrates more than older style solids. Best of both worlds. In Australia I carried solids for backing up and later only used them when my non cons were running low. I saw that there wasn't really a need for the solid on buffalo when using a non con. Solids still need to be used on elephant but I think if all I had was non cons I'd use them on elephant in a heart beat.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Congrates to Mike, Beau and Mark. Glad to see more people using the #13s with same results.
Sam

And Carl and Eric too!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Congrates to Mike, Beau and Mark. Glad to see more people using the #13s with same results.
Solids still need to be used on elephant but I think if all I had was non cons I'd use them on elephant in a heart beat.

Sam

But Sam

The remaining shank from a 577NE Non-Con is still more substantial than even a .416 solid;

And

You still would choose a CEB#13 solid over Non-Con if given your druthers.

My cousin Vito does use a ball-peen hammer for things other than it was intended so you can choose and use less than optimal tools for a job "at hand" ... but that's a different story

Love to hear stories like this. That 130 is a great do all 308 bullet and love velocity. That 300 win mag and the 130 ESP Raptor seems to knock the shit out of the toughest of African PG. I'm curious about the velocities he was getting. Dan was doing about 3,300 out of the WSM and I figure could push it faster. No doubt about it those hollow point brass bullets are vicious inside game. I think the best in terms of translating FPE into lethality.

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Originally posted by michael458:
Carl and his family spent some time in South Africa doing some plains game shooting before he and Mike left for Zimbabwe for buffalo and elephant. Carl was shooting 300 Win Mag and 130 ESP Raptors. He found a really good load that worked for his rifle after just a bit of trial and error. And in the end, I think he was pleased with the results. Carl had this to say about the 130 ESP Raptor;

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The 130 gr tipped non-con were amazing. Everything we hit with that bullet went to the ground immediately. A couple were not dead and one I had to put another small caliber round into it. I took a Cape Eland head on at less than 100 yards and dropped him like a poleaxe had hit him between the eyes. He bled out thought the wound channel for 5 minutes with a steady stream of blood poring out of him. I mean a pencil diameter stream of blood. I've never seen that before.
We shot 2 zebras, one wildebeest, the cape eland, a roan , a warthog head on to see if we could push the bullet all the way thought him but the skull defected the bullet enough that it came out above the front shoulder. The PH wants some of those bullets for his 300. I left what we had left for him.

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Those 308 bullets were amazing. I couldn't believe how critters were knocked off their feet on first shots. African animals are tuff cookies and can take one bullet after another if the adrenaline is pumping.- but with these bullets down they go on first good hits.

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I'm going to see if I can get the 100gr 308's to shoot in the 300 and use it for deer in Nov. I'm excited to see what happens.

Carl

PS. I'll send you the pictures of the stream of blood coming out of the eland. We all were stun to see this stream of blood having never ever to see this happening.

I don't know, but if I had to guess I would say Carl was rather pleased with the end result.

Michael