I consider the Roan a true agressive antelope. Sort of a buffalo in an antelope body. Roan get angry more than scared.

Just in from my friend Cliff Walker. He is a well known PH in Zim. Cliff uses a 577 double and he has used CEB BBW#13 bullet of late. Cliff sent me a very short email saying he had a close call with a lion recently. He said he really likes the bullets. From the photo I'd say it was a close call.
Sam

There is more than one way to skin a cat
Incredible shot by the PH
If he used Non Cons the eyes would have been outside the sockets lol.
Keep the de-tails coming.

De-tails? I believe that's de-head.

Got another short email from Cliff and he said it was a Non con that he used on lion. He also said him short a buffalo with the BBW#13 solid and was very pleased with its penetration.

Sam

I would say that gave the cat a really ugly headache..... Imagine what is on the other side of that
entry hole!!!!!!!!! Not much I can tell you now, not much at all..........

I suffice to say that Cliff has never seen his 577 as effective as it is now........ In fact, I would be willing to take a few bets on that.... Any Takers?

Michael

Was the skull shot an insurance shot after the lion was down?

I've known Cliffy since we hunted the Selous together back in 2001, just days after the 9-11 attack. We were all younger then but we knew he would become a premier PH. He had just received his 577NE at that time. He has suffered a number of injuries but is one of the tough guys and has always come back. Glad he got the Lion before it could get to him! My guess is that he stopped a charge with the brain shot. Nice shooting Cliffy!

Tough is an understatement!!!!!!!!!!

Sam-

True, dat!

Last Minute Bullet Report.......

This was sent to me a little while ago... I have permission to post the report and bullet photos, but not the buffalo, or name of the individual. I can tell you this, its a great old buffalo, but aren't they all!

This fellow was using a 370 gr 416 Safari Raptor (new name for the BBW#13 NonCon HP).. So, I will do my best in the future to refer to them as "Safari Raptors" All HPs regardless of copper, brass, or design are now Raptors... Raptor this, Raptor that.... And the SOlids are now.... Safari Solids....
All this of course from CEB..... I think there are some new boxes as well, I still get in bulk, but I see the box in this photo I have....



Here are the main points of the report I got..................

quote:

My wife,and I hunted Cape Buffalo in Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe as part of a permitted “Culling Hunt”, from 28 May – 03 June 2013. We were using the 370 grain Safari Raptor bullets in my .416 Rem Mag rifle.

As we got within couple hundred yards, he evidently caught our wind also and started running toward the brush. He stopped and squared off with us for a few seconds, then took off running again. He stopped approximately 170 yards from us and stood quartering towards us. I had enough time to estimate the range, sight in just inside his left shoulder. I fired and heard the impact of the bullet. I watched him drop his head, turn and start running. I tried to sight in again and fired as he disappeared into the bush. I couldn’t tell if I hit him with the second shot or not. We drove up to where I hit him with the first shot and prepared to start tracking him. As we got out of the truck we heard the familiar “Death Moan” coming from the brush. We knew then that he was probably dead, but would proceed with caution until we could confirm it.

The buffalo was dead, we found him lying in the brush, where he had run approximately 80 yards from where I had hit him with the first shot. I then did a final shot into the shoulder as we approached the buffalo as an “Insurance” shot.

I was really impressed with the bullets. I hit this buffalo just inside the left shoulder as he quartered towards me and as we skinned him, we found the bullet down in his right hindquarter. I have attached photos of the recovered bullet.

Well, there you go, you got what I got, almost.... LOL...... 170 Yards was an EXTREME long Shot in my opinion, but it is what it is......... Bullet sheared, drove deep, and did its job. I think this is the longest distance I have heard of for a buffalo to run after being hit with one of these, regardless of caliber used that I am aware of. Probably at that range it had slowed down quite a bit...... Thats more or less what I am figuring.....

Enjoy....
Michael

Impressed that he found all of the petals...
I wonder if a hand held metal detector like the used by everyones favorite TSA employees would come in handy in the field. Not that we need to carry anymore "stuff" with us.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Impressed that he found all of the petals...
I wonder if a hand held metal detector like the used by everyones favorite TSA employees would come in handy in the field. Not that we need to carry anymore "stuff" with us.

Zeph......

The one photo with all the blades is a CEB stock photo... .Not the bullet recovered from the buffalo.

To answer your question at one time I had one of those handheld metal detectors that I used here on the range to find things in the test medium. It worked great, I thought several times to take it with me, however even the handheld takes up a lot of room and weight. I am always pushing the limits on weight, so it always got left behind. A couple of years ago it quit working, I never messed with one again. Would like to have one that is smaller than 18-24 inches long..... Probably today they have them smaller, I have not investigated that......

Got permission to post the buffalo..........






Bags are packed, doing last minute checks on everything, and get on the airplane today....... So for the most part I will catch you guys when I can.........

Michael

That is an awesome buffalo!

Have an awesome trip Michael

Michael

When we tried those hand held metal detector,
they didn't seem to work that well on animal
flesh.

Now we use a proper gold finding metal detector
which works better.

Apart from running it over the outside of the animal before any cutting is started, have
often found following the wound channel through
the body gets you closer at the start because
as you probably well know, once you start moving that body, bullets change location !

I just want to say that was impressive bullet performance at 170 yards.
325 grain 416 is .268 SD vs 400 grain 416 at .330 SD.

Comparing SD of bullets is an exercise in futility

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
Comparing SD of bullets is an exercise in futility

Yes. That is why I bring it up. Non conventional.

Michael, Have a great trip, give em hell!

Boomstick,

It appears the hunter used a 370gr not the 325gr bullet pictured. Clearly the Higher SD of the 370gr Bullet was the difference

Noted. Thanks for catching my mistake.
I'll have to check to see like for like penetration with those two weights from Michaels testing.

505G

You bring up an excellent point that I have in the past tried to convey to some, and that is working with some of the larger animals in the field is very difficult following wound channels and following tissue destruction. Skin slips, things are fluid and move around, its difficult to do proper in the field, if not impossible. One can study destroyed tissue, observe entrance and exits, and things like that, can even do some measuring from entrance to exit, but much more is very limited. If a bullet is recovered, then you can see bullet behavior too... This is about the extent of what we can do in the field, with the equipment we have for hunting only......



I am here in Pretoria South Africa this morning, 6 am my time here. Not shooting yet, that starts next week. So I find myself with some time on my hands, although Momma is keeping me fairly busy so far since we arrived.

Since SD was brought up in a few posts, this reminded me of the Cutting Edge Bullet new Brochure, or booklet that is now available, which I received several copies before leaving. There is an excellent section they worked on in the new brochure that defines and speaks about "Retained Sectional Density" or RSD after and during Terminal Penetration. There is a very excellent explanation about RSD with comparisons between conventional and Non Conventional bullets, and explains very well how a lighter Non Conventional can penetrate deeper than a heavier bullet in the same caliber that is conventional because the lighter NonCon has more Retained Sectional Density once Terminals begin.

Also of great import is the name changes of most all of the bullets that we have been referring to. Basically all of the NonCons, or Non Conventionals are now "Raptors"... All HPs or trauma inflicting bullets are Raptors. These are further broken down into their proper categories as well. Such as this........

ESP Raptor---Still our "Enhanced System Projectile", can be used as a standard HP, or tipped HP, or reversed and used as a solid........ This is our BBW#13 Profile on both ends. Available from .243 to .375

ER Raptor--- "Extended Range" Raptor. This bullet is not the standard #13 profile, but a sleeker version, that comes tipped already from CEB, has a boat tail, and higher BC. Available from .223 to .375

FB Raptor--- "Flat Base" Raptor.. Thus far this applies to only the 55 gr BBW#13 that we did some time ago, it does not come tipped.

Copper Raptor--- For the lead free areas and those who wish for copper rather than brass. I have not tested these, although I have been sent some in 308 caliber. All these have been tested by CEB and by design operate exactly like the brass raptors. These also come already tipped...... Available from .224 to .375.....

Lever+ Raptor---These have the shorter nose projections needed for the lever guns, and are the ones we like to use seated deep, add tips, and work through the magazines of our bigger bore rifles. These all maintain the BBW#13 Nose profiles. Available for 30-30, .458, .500, and .510.........

Safari ESP Raptor---Again, Enhanced System Projectile, from 338 to .500 caliber.

Safari Raptor---These of course are our big bore NonCons, longer nose projection matching our BBW#13 Solids.

I think that pretty much rounds out the inventory of what we here have just referred to in the past as NonCons. I was consulted during this and agreed that CEB really needed a proper name that most everyone could recognize and understand, and we here can be rather proud that in the beginning we chose the name Raptor. Now with all the different Raptors being properly categorized I will do my best to refer to these with their new and more proper names.

Now also in addition to the proper names for each of the type of Raptors listed, there is even a proper name for the remaining bullet after the blades have sheared...... The "Blunt Trauma Base" or BTB.......

What about our BBW#13 Solids? How about........

Safari Solid--- Which maintain the BBW#13 Nose Profile, and we know what these do and are designed to do.

Also included in the new brochure booklet is their Long Range bullets, which are extreme, and out of my area of expertise, and also out of my area of interest as well.

This is a great booklet, I love the new names, I love the organization of the bullets now, and hopefully cut down on much of the confusion with just calling everything a NonCon.... Which they still are, but now different categories that we can identify better with.

Get in touch with CEB and request a new brochure, I am sure they will be happy to send one. Naturally it goes into far more detail than I have presented here.

Michael

http://site.cuttingedgebullets...0Retail%20Prices.pdf

Here is the new brochure.

Hey Michael... Try to get some more head shots please

Doc M, shoot straight and have a good trip.
Looking forward to the trip report and results.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Doc M, shoot straight and have a good trip.
Looking forward to the trip report and results.

Thank Tex.....

I am quite sure we will have a good trip... If I can get out of Pretoria and in the bush!

I have about had my fill of Pretoria right now and visiting family and such...............

Ready to hit the bush.

Shoot Straight? Well, as long as there is plenty of beer, and other assorted drinks I figure I can
shoot much better that way... Or at least think I am... HEH HEH.....

M

Break a leg!
Page 278.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Break a leg!
Page 278.

Thanks Ole buddy.... Believe I will pass however on the leg breaking... LOL........

Yes, I see, Page 278.. Incredible..... Hopefully next week I can start posting more ugly bullet wounds..... and reporting on some new things......

M

Have a good time Michael!

Michael must be having lots of fun in
The bush.

Hey Guys...
Back in Pretoria for just the evening..... Leave for Zimbabwe in the morning.

RIP... No legs broken..... YET... LOL....

12-13 animals in the dirt... Can't keep count and have to sit down add them up.. But know 2 zebra, 3 wildebeast.. Oryx.. pigs and impalas... Zebra/Wildebeast drop to the shot of either 250 CEB 458s.. Socom
or #13 HP.... Socom bullet does an incredible amount of damage up front, blades shear quicker, exploding inside.. Socom penetrates deeper than the #13 HP.... Exits on zebra and wildebeasts.... However, the
blades on the Socom do not penetrate as deep as the #13 blades. Either way, both are devastating to say the
least, even with a gut shot. YES... I gut shot another wildebeast... But this time it was out of my control.
At 150+ yards I turned one loose on a wildebeast, at the shot he moved, another run in behind it and caught the bullet in the guts... 250 Socom, exited guts of wildebeast.. 15 minute at the most followup, and I pounded him through the shoulders from about 25 yds and he collapsed...

Penetration of the 250 .458 Socom bullet is very good... It was 2 inches more in the test medium than the #13 HP, and it is doing the same here in the field as well..... It is so good, I think I am going to try in in Zimbabwe on one of those buffalo I have on quota there........

458 B&M performing excellent. M71 50 B&M Alaskan performing great, if I can see good enough. In this area there was a lot of brush, I could not see as good with the UltraDot sight as I would like to. Set up for short range and buffalo is not so good when trying to shoot plains game in thick brush.

As much as I tried, I still hit several sticks, and with expected results, bullets and sticks... Not good.

All bullets have performed extremely well, as expected, results, well, same old story, "I have never seen anything like it!" One of the warthogs damned near exploded with the Socom bullet.... Damage was so extensive it peeled the skin back in several directions for several inches... You might say it blew the skin damn near off of him! I have never seen anything like that for real! On one impala the hair was blown off for an inch around the exit... .Have not seen that before either.

Not a lot of photos got taken, and none from the skinning shed. Sorry.... We were hunting far harder than I expected, time was short, and half the time my camera was not with. Will try and do better in Zimbabwe.

Michael

Thanks for the update! Hope you are having a blast
Sounds like those 250's are kicking butt.
The 250 SOCOM is sounding like quite the one and done defensive bullet for home protection or hogsplosions.

Thanks for the report. Glad to read something worth while here on AR.

Sorry to hear about the lack of pics, would have loved to seen the described damage.

Glad to here the bullets w/slits work so well. I wonder how the heavy weight bullets(w/slits) would perform over the std. type.

Good luck on your buffs, I bet the Socoms will work just fine.

Keith

Thanks for taking the time to post and update DocM.

Initial impression of the SOCOM is that maybe there is a bit of room to play with a smaller diameter hole to give a bit deeper penetration before the petals shear?

Great performance either way though.

Rhodes
DRSS

Howdy-

The 250 SOCOM (actually a ~ 252 plus tip brings it to 260 grains) was specifically designed to be a .458 SOCOM bullet for the ARs in that caliber.

Rock River Arms states on their webpage that the accuracy of their SOCOM is 1-1/2" at 100 yards. This bullet does 1-1/2" at 200 yards in their rifle, and was designed to expand and blow the four blades at 1,400 fps- which it is traveling at that distance.

It just also happens to shoot great in Michael's .458 B&M. The first group I shot with it - less tip - in my Marling GBL with an 18.5" bbl (actually first group EVER out of that rifle) ... produced a 3-shot, 7/8" group at a speed of 2,250 using RL-7... so it is indeed a very versatile bullet.

Sounds just dandy the way it is in every gun tested so far!

quote:

Originally posted by Alasken-Oz:


Sounds just dandy the way it is in every gun tested so far!

Howdy Alasken-Oz

You are of course 100% correct and the SOCOM bullet appears to do exactly what it was designed to do.

I probably could have worded my post a little differently. Please insert

"for those who like to tinker"

at the start of my post as this is a thread full of tinkerers.

If you go back a few posts you'll see that DocM and I were discussing how well this style of bullet, with the slits in the nose to start the shear effect, might penetrate on thick skinned game out of his 458.

This is what I was refering to in my post.

Glad we cleared this up.

Rhodes
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

+1

Hey guys n' gals,
Patience is a virtue n' a virtue won't hurt you!
================================================

Michael,
May your hunts go well, the sun be at your back, and nary a hangfire! Keep healthy out there, k'.

OSB,

You just need to understand it's a hot summer day and the peanut gallery is easily bored. Nothing more...