We have Returned from the Land Down Under!

Marvelous time it was as well.

Much to report, but it will be over many days coming. There is much to attempt to put together for you, and not to mention I am going to be several days just trying to catch up the real work that actually pays the bills for this stuff! That has priority of course.

I did want to bring this to your attention, under the hunting reports while I was gone, Charles gave me some notes on his hunt concerning the bullets, I am only reposting this here for those that did not see it. I think very important to add to this thread.

quote:

Michael:

All animals (except the sable as noted) immediately reacted to the CEB non-cons. Most (zebra and impalas) dropped in their tracks. The buff ran maybe 15 yards (no death bellow - just plain dead) and the nyala and one impala maybe 10 yards. If I recall correctly, I had pass throughs on all but one of the impalas. No exits on the zebra, buff, or nyala. The skinner retrieved the non-con from the buff for me, and it was essentially a shorter, jagged edged solid (the leaves had broken off as designed).

As expected, I had pass throughs on all of the solids (buff insurance; and one impala - running low on non-cons). I know this is very unscientific, but I'm no ballistics expert or engineer. If you have any specific questions, let me know.

C

Welcome back Michael.
Looking foward to the report from down under!

As soon as possible will be trying to put some things together. We did some incredible things, discovered some new things, confirmed some suspicions about performance of things, and just too much to try and put together quickly.

Some of the important things that come to mind, that both Sam and I will go into more detail about over the next week or so.

1. BBW#13 NonCons with Tips Added!

2. 50 B&M and 475 B&M Super Short performance with both North Fork CPS/Solids, and CEB #13 NonCons/solids.

3. 9.3 performance on buffalo, and the new 3 blade buffalo bullet for mediums--9.3 and 375.

4. .474 caliber North Forks and BBW#13s from the 475 B&M.

5. 500 Nitro performance with various BBW#13s---and some ugly reports from 500 Nitro from guys previously in camp before Sam and I, they were using Hawks.



And these are only a few things, I am sure as both Sam and I go through in more detail we will have more topics of value.

It is good to be HOME!!!!!!!!!

But, is was also one hell of a good trip!

Michael

Welcome home!
Will try to be patient
Especially curious about the "Trident Non Con" or "Quad shot" or "Quad Non Con" (three petals plus base)
Glad you had a great trip! The peanut gallery awaits

Got home from my trip downunder with Michael and his family. As Michael said a great time for all. Great outfitter and hunting area.

I saw the Super Shorts perform better than I ever thought they could. Good cartridge, good bullet and good shot placement all add to performance. Michael's two sons shot great and those little tiny guns hammer buffalo. The buffalo were much bigger than any Cape buffalo I've seen and they were on edge too. I got to see how the animals reacted and was amazed. The 50 Super short is a real hammer. I shot buffalo with both the 475 non cons and the 535 non cons in my 500 NE. Both bullets were traveling at 2100 fps. The 475 gr with tips performed better than the 535 gr without and I would have never believed this had I not seen it with my own eyes. I did not have a tipped 475 gr stay in an animal. 535s without tips did. Both bullet did just like Michael's tests have shown. Petals did go through shoulders into chest. That added velocity of the tips really made a difference. Most animals shot with non cons either dropped to the shot or just stood there with their heads down unable to go anywhere. I've never seen anything like it! Does caliber matter? Yes I will have to say that the 9.3 did not hit as hard as the little 475 Super Short did. I watched Michael hit one animal a couple of times with the 9.3 and it reacted like most animals would with a non shoulder breaking shot, it ran and took the hits. Sure it was dead but it didn't know it. Michael's son Mark David hit that buffalo running with that little 475 SS and little light weight Non con. I watched it roll to that shot. Impact was way more than what I saw from the 9.3. The 9.3 did what I thought it would do and is a great plains game gun and yes you can kill buffalo with it but the big bores hit much harder.

Much more to come after I get some rest.

Sam

I wonder what the impact velocity differences were between the tipped 475 and non tipped 535.

Gentlemen:

Welcome back from the mission down under.
You were sorely missed topside, but the mission was
apparently very worthwhile.

Some good reading and picture looking to come ...
I like pictures of bullets and dead animals.

Boomstick,

I think the tipped velocity at 50 yards is about 100-150 fps faster than a non tipped. As I said both the bullet were running around 2100 fps. The 535s may have been a little faster but were non tipped. It was hard to beleive a 475 grain .510 bullet would exit on a shoulder shot. Most of the non cons were in the hide on the off side. The hide on these buffalo was about 1/2 inch thick.

Sam

This is one of the buffalo I shot on the trip. It was shot with my Sabatti 500NE double with a 475 grain tipped CEB Non con for the first shot through the shoulders. It stumbled and was hit with a 535 grain CEB non con without tip. This put the animal down for good. The 475 gr exited the off shoulder and the base on the 535 was under the hide on the offside. Shot was about 50 yards.

Sam

Those Raptors and Non Cons do seem to like more velocity than traditional SD. Hell even the 130 grain .2 SD Raptor on the 250 yards away Gemsbok Dan shot went through both shoulders. It will take many moons for the world to catch up with how good these are. How does it feel to be the Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong of Non Cons?

Always loved the horns on those things. Maybe someone should cross breed them with Cape Buff for a super exotic super sized buff.

This confirms our thoughts on adding the tip, gaining that extra impact velocity. With a double, no down side to adding the tip, and maybe extremely important in that impact velocity at 50 yards. On the first round up, I used the tips in the bolt guns with great effect also. No doubts, the tips add 150 + or - a bit to impact at 50 yds. This extra impact velocity means more of everything, more trauma, more penetration.

M

Welcome back guys! I look forward to your indepth reports.

Sam, love that big buff! Great swipping headgear.

Now we will have some great reading on AR again. More terminals and pics, yeah!

Keith

Michael and Sam,

Are we going to get tips for the 577 Non-Cons!

Thanks Hog Killer, Yeah I always wanted one like that with the wide horns. Michael shot one even bigger of course!

Todd, After what I saw I would say yes on the tips for 577. Don't want to put tips in until in camp because TSA would think they were RPGs.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:


Todd, After what I saw I would say yes on the tips for 577. Don't want to put tips in until in camp because TSA would think they were RPGs.

Understand!! I'm leaving in 9 weeks. Do you think we'll have them by then?

Todd, Call Dan he may be able to do them for you in time.

Sam & Mke:
Congrats on your great trip and safe return. Am waiting anxiously for reports and pics.
Max

Sam's big buffalo was incredible. This was the first real sweeper I had seen, did not see any of these in 2009 when I was there.

I kept telling Sam there was going to be zero issues with a .510 475 gr NonCon, and with the tips added, and that extra 125-150 fps impact velocity at 50 yds, even big buffalo like this one could not "contain" them, exits. While the slower 535 got stuck on the far side. Also, the new 475 gr had the new wider Cavity as well. Lower shear velocity. And as Sam states, the 475s hit harder and it was noticeable.

Todd

Will speak to Dan in the next few days, will try and remember about .585 tips. Can't hurt!

Found this thread down on Double Rifles this morning, thought I would transfer these comments here as well;


http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/1471002871

quote:

I'm back from a month in Botswana ans Namibia. While in Botswana I was able to try out Cutting Edge Bullet performance on one of Botswanas bull elephants. I bull was quartering toward and slightly facing us. The rifle was my Merkel 500NE double. Cartridges were of my own loading, 96gr RL-15 with 570gr CEB solids. a total of 5 rounds fired. The last 2 were more or less not needed but ammo is cheaper than hospital bills.
I did not recover any bullets. 4 were fired in the front chest area and exited the rear end. The last was a between the ears shot the exited bottom of chest. The elephant was hit 4 times in the heart and lungs. Each shot would be considered fatal. My only complaint is that now I'm going to have to find a bigger elephant to shoot to try and recover a bullet for my key chain. Just joking on the last sentence for those who don't have the same sense of humor as me.

There is a lot going on in the field this year with the BBW#13s.

A friend/client of David Keith, and friend of mine Mark Thornwell, took a nice elephant with Andrew a couple of weeks ago as well, to complete his big five. Mark was using a 480 BBW#13 Solid in his 450 Nitro, side brain shot, exit the far side, end of story, over and out!

More to come

Michael

Welcome back DocM & Sam,

Looking forward to some interesting and exciting reading

Glad you are all back safe and sound!

Regards

Esskay, Prof, and all, thanks, good to be home, but it was an incredible trip.

More concerning the big bull that Sam took with the 500 Nitro, this is Sam and our #1 Australian Buffalo Man--the one and only Paul Truccolo! Only Paul could have handled this group of ours! And understood what we needed to do, and why. Paul is a and has been a total believer in all our work since we met in 2009 and become fast friends. Paul backs up now with a 500 MDM, and the BBW#13 NonCons. He also has a VC 500 Nitro on the way. Paul did not get to do much shooting on this trip, nothing required it, but I let him shoot a couple of times anyway, after all we are buddies, and I love to see that 500 MDM do it's thing!

Sam and Paul



We did a little digging around in this one, found a HUGE hole through the lungs from the 475 gr BBW#13, 500 Nitro, or I think it was the 475, might have been the 535?? Big hole regardless.



Here is a photo of the heart of that buffalo, and just so happens a couple of blades went into it, as you can clearly see.




This is all the .510 535 NonCons we recovered on the far side of buffalo stuck in the hide. These are from various buffalo, not just one.






Working on some more things, will let you guys discuss this until I can get some other stuff ready!

Michael

Michael,
Welcome back, sounds like you all had fun. Getting into final prep for mine, doing last round of reloading, had to change scope rings on the 416, so am double checking everything.

To celebrate your return-for your reading pleasure--


ALF
one of us
Posted 11 August 2012 05:21 Hide Post
And so the myth continues, strengthened and perpetrated by erroneous assumption caused by something not observed, but thought to have happened.

The latest an observation of the apparent effect of what the shorn blades of a non con do to buffalo. Perceived as "tearing" " cutting" and causing all kinds of havoc where they go ?

The reality is that these blades do nothing of the kind, they are unstable low sectional density missiles and their action in terms of wounding is a direct result of these two qualities. The apparent wound profiles associated with these missiles not due to tearing, cutting or crushing but rather their ability to shed large amounts of their potential energy to the target commensurate with the drag they induce by virtue of their low sectional density.

How does this differ with an assumption that they crush tear and cut, simply if they did then the wound profile would be exactly the same for all organs penetrated, in fact all targets penetrated.

The fact that the wound produced is the result of the energy dump attributed to drag ( which is secitonal density dependent) explains why the wound profile differs from organ to organ tissue to tissue and target materials as a whole.

I posed this question over on the SD thread where Cross L found the comment from ALF but since the non-con experts reside here I should have posted it here.

Has anyone used high speed photography to capture the behavior of non-cons in ballistic gelatin? Once I get back into handloading I WILL use non-cons as I like what I have seen and heard. It would still be interesting to see the non-cons at work on the inside as it were.

Eric

Hi Eric

No hi speed photography--YET. There will be some in the future. As for "Capture" of behavior, I have caught that hundreds, on top of hundreds of times in the test medium here, wet print. Dan has worked with ballistic gel, exact same story there, behavior the same. Now since 2009 I have personally taken over 75 animals, a large portion of those buffalo, and have now been witness to an additional 40-50 animals taken with various NonCons of different design. Guess What? Behavior EXACTLY the same in animal tissue as the test work. I don't mean close, I don't mean almost, I mean F*****G exactly the same behavior. I wonder how much test work our EXPERT ALF has with these? Do you think he has ever even seen one, other than photos?

Speaking of behavior of the bullet--not the exact depth of penetration, trauma, and such as that between the various mediums. The bullets work exactly as designed, and do it very very well. Blades do slice their way through medium, test or animal tissue, they do not have mass enough to crush, push, or mash their way through, and it is evident in animal tissue as well as the test medium. It would take a complete moron to not be able to observe, witness, and deduce that.

Dan is working on doing some hi speed when he gets a chance. I can't wait to see it too.

Michael

Thanks Michael. I think often times folks cannot find a way to scientifically explain something so they use existing theories to "dispel" what they cannot explain. Kinda like it was once thought impossible to break the sound barrier. I'm sold on their performance.

Eric

I'm just waiting for them to come in .729.

A 750 grain hollow base Raptor would be awesome!

quote:

I shot buffalo with both the 475 non cons and the 535 non cons in my 500 NE. Both bullets were traveling at 2100 fps. The 475 gr with tips performed better than the 535 gr without and I would have never believed this had I not seen it with my own eyes. I did not have a tipped 475 gr stay in an animal.

Hopefully, those 475 grain (485 grain with tips) will be up on the CEB website sooner rather than later. I'll need some flatbase Raptors whenever I get a shortthroated barrel for my 500 AccR.

we can also try to answer that question about whatever it is that makes the 13º boattail Raptors unstable at normal and even relatively light weights for calibre?

Anyway, welcome home and congratulations on wonderful hunt.

Eleeton

No thanks needed, but you are welcome. I think you are correct on points made in your last post. Since I do understand how the work, why they work, and how to manipulate the behavior, I could care less about trying to put a "So Called", "Scientific Spin" on it. This ain't Rocket Science we are working with or brain surgery, its all really very simple and very easy to understand, FOR MOST FOLKS. For those that are not intelligent enough then it might be a bit tough on them since it is not in the BOOKS yet.
Thanks.

Gibs, I think .729 would qualify as a Special Order! LOL........ You can have them, but I don't think you will find them on the shelves just yet!

Tanz

When I get caught up in the next couple of weeks, Dan and I will work on a bullet, flat base, bands forward, seat deep, use tip, I can't see a reason for it to be more than 350 grs .510, will work great also in the 51 AK lever guns. I will get an order of 250 done, you can get from me what you want of them.

By the way, for the most part I have had Dan start BULK PACKING almost all my personal bullets--this is a smaller foot print for me. I am just getting mine in a nice heavy duty plastic bag, I can store more bullets that way than in the boxes!

Michael

While we are continuing the .510 caliber work that Sam did, here is his other bull. An old worn bull, and I really particularly liked this bull. It was a great one no doubt, and the 500 Nitro handled it just dandy.




Just because it's a 500 Nitro does not mean that it will just hammer buffalo to the dirt! If you don't combine that cartridge with a proper bullet, then like I have been trying to preach, it's just as useless as a small bore! We got to hear how awful a 500 Nitro was with a 570 Hawk bullet on buffalo, and Paul had some samples of broken up bullets from two guys with 500 Nitros that were there for buffalo before we arrived. Paul has a 500 Nitro VC on the way, and was having very serious second thoughts about how effective or in this case, how NON Effective the 500 Nitro was, without good bullets. One thing, Paul got to do some shooting FOR THESE guys with his 500 MDM, the 500 Nitro boys could not believe how the 500 MDM was slamming buffalo to the dirt, and their mighty 500 Nitros were not effective. Well boys listen good--IT"S THE BULLET---Not the Cartridge! Bullet does the work--The cartridge is only a delivery system, and can only deliver what you stuff in it. Just because it's a 500 Nitro don't mean squat if you don't have a proper bullet!

I hear and we all see right here discussions like this---

"Whats the best Cartridge for Buffalo? Elephant? Lion or whatever--Cartridge is a Delivery System--Nothing More. The BULLET DOES THE WORK and ALL THE HEAVY LIFTING. Now if I had been a smart fellow, and the B&Ms were some sort of business, I should have kept the BBW#13s proprietary to the B&M cartridges and rifles. Can you imagine how a 50 B&M Super Short would have compared to a 500 Nitro? The tiny little 6.25 lb, 36 inch gun with a BBW#13 NonCon slamming big buffalo to the dirt, and that big 12 lb VERY EXPENSIVE DOUBLE 500 Nitro with sorry ass bullets BEING BACKED UP BY THE 50 B&M SUPER SHORT!!!!!!! HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH............

If I had to choose between the two to go buffalo hunting

50 B&M Super Short 335 BBW#13 NonCon

or

500 Nitro 570 gr Hawk

HANDS DOWN, I would take the 50 B&M Super Short, and promise it would be FAR MORE EFFECTIVE!

Choose The Right Bullet for the Mission at Hand! It REALLY is just that simple!

Michael

SAM

I HATE THAT DATE STAMP!!!!!!!!

Michael, Sorry about the date stamp as I hate it also. Got to figure out how to get rid of it.

As Michael said we heard stories from Paul about how poorly the previous 470 and 500s had performed on these big buffalo. Two hunters just prior to the B&M crowd arriving had bad luck with their 500NE doubles. So much so they threw their remaining ammo away. They offered it to Paul but he didn't want it. These guys had seen the 500 MDM with a BBW#13 non con dump their wounded buffalo. I watched Paul shoot a cow buffalo that I think I made a poor shot on. This buffalo was running through thick trees and when Paul fired it looked like there was a anchor tied to its nose. At the shoot the buffalos nose hit the dirt and was out of sight in the mud and water. STOPPING GUN or maybe stopping bullet.
The Hawk bullets used by other hunters were 600 grain and had broken to pieces and failed to penetrate. Paul was so upset about performance of the 500NE he was about to cancel his VC double. After he saw how my 500NE with BBW#13 non cons performed he decided to get his new double. It should be a good stopping gun in close quarters.

Sam

Seems I am working my way down in caliber! And since I mentioned above the 50 B&M Super Short, then I reckon I best get on with that.

The 50 B&M Super Short has seen quite a bit of work over the last few years. It's a tiny little thing, 6.25 lbs, Win M70, WSSM action, 36 inches overall length. Cartridge is only 1.65 inches long. Or about the same size as a 500 S&W, in a tiny bolt gun. However, by proper BULLET design, we have turned the 50 B&M Super Short into an entirely different animal. In the beginning I would have NEVER thought of it as a buffalo cartridge. The bullets were not available for it then.

It has seen work in Alaska, used for moose and goats, and now probably bear as well. I know folks have slammed deer with it from the beginning.

But, while I was working on bullets for the bigger B&Ms we did not neglect the Super Shorts! The first bullets that at least tested up to buffalo territory was the North Fork 375 Expanding Cup Point, and it's twin the 375 North Fork Solids. After extensive testing, I felt like they were up to the job of handling buffalo. Then came the BBW#13s, and they too tested into buffalo territory. But I was so busy with some of the other cartridges, I personally had never taken a Super Short to the field at all for anything. Until this trip to Australia for buffalo!

For this trip, both my boys along for the shooting, Mark David, and Matthew Daniel. I decided they would do the work with the Super Shorts. Mark David worked with the new 475 B&M, and Matthew worked exclusively with the 50 B&M Super Short. I had 3 different bullets along for the 50 B&M Super Short--335 BBW#13 NonCon at 2275-2300 fps, 375 North Fork Expanding Cup Point at 2225 fps or so, and the NEW NOSE PROFILE North Fork 375 FPS Solid at over 2200 fps. Matt went to work with the BBW#13s first on herd reduction, large cows and such. Paul got to watch most of the shooting by the boys, while Sam and I backed up, Sam working with Matt, myself working with Mark David. Paul observed how effective the 50 Super Short was, and was quite impressed with it's performance. Also, there was a difference, small, but none the less it was noticeable, between the impact of the .500 caliber and the .474 caliber Super Shorts, with the nod going to the larger caliber, the 50 Super Short. Not taking anything away from the 475 Super Short at all, just in caliber, larger is better with everything else equal!

The 50 Super Short gave up nothing in effectiveness, and the 335 BBW#13s performed like magic, knocking animals in the dirt, or making them so sick they could not move, then went to the dirt on followup.

When it come time for Matthew to take a big bull Buffalo, I had him work with the 375 North Forks. I had instructed for him to use 1 375 CPS up front, followed by the new 375 FPS Solids. Well, in the confusion of battle, Matt used TWO CPS and one FPS. This was a BIG BIG BODY BULL--20% + bigger than any cape buffalo I had ever seen. And these buffalo are no pushovers, I know, all total I have shot nearly 35 or so of them over time. Matt hit the bull twice in the shoulder very quickly from port to starboard, and the two 375 North Fork CPS were found in the hide, far side shoulder 2 inches apart, and had done the job. Matt followed with the 375 North Fork Solid, which exited of course guessing 40+ inches of penetration before exit. The big bull was very sick from the first shot, and I don't think went over 15-20 yards from where the battle began, and down, end of story.









Of course, you know me, Test First before going to the field! Well now, some, very few, but some folks think that I am stupid, that I do not understand how bullets work, that I waste my time doing test work, as that is, according to some few, a waste of time, and that I am not smart enough to evaluate such or even understand my own observations. Well, go back to the beginning of this thread, read what I said, I do this for me, so I can be more successful in the field, and any endeavor in which I might embark upon. If you want to listen, fine, I don't mind sharing, if you don't believe, or think I am too f*****g stupid to understand bullet behavior, then kiss my ass and go about your business, I don't care. But lets take a look at the "Test Work" first.





What you see above is two separate tests, done on two different days actually. You will also see the velocity is somewhat less than current velocity, around 100 fps. The penetration is WELL INTO buffalo penetration parameters too.

Now lets look at what happens when you add a 100 fps on the top end, and you stick the same bullets into a buffalo.






Well, now we see a little more expansion due to the extra velocity, we see blood stains on the bullet, but behavior is pretty much the same. As for penetration, excellent, just as predicted, all the way through buffalo tissue, and that hide stopped it far side. That hide is 1/2 inch thick right there, if not more, very elastic, and stops bullets like these. I know, I have found many a 500 gr Swift A Frame,500 Woodleigh Soft, and various other .458 caliber bullets on the far shoulders of buffalo, when fired from a 458 Lott at 2275 fps. By the way, all this talk about SD, what is the SD of a 500 gr .458 and a 375 gr .500? Oh, well, really does not make much difference I reckon, don't worry about it, I really don't need to know, or care.

These North Forks have made the 50 B&M Super Short, a real deal Buffalo Rifle/Cartridge. Has something to do with the "BULLET" I think!

HEH..........

Enjoy your Sunday Gents!

Michael

So who's arm do I twist to get a "Special Order"?

quote:

Originally posted by Gibs:
So who's arm do I twist to get a "Special Order"?

Gibs

I will either help you, or you can contact Dan as easy.

Neither of us are familiar with standard .729 fare, so much needs to be conveyed from you about some particulars so to make sure you get what you need. Rifle, cartridge length, magazine length, if there is a magazine, nose projection, band placement, goals, and so on, so forth and what have you.

It can happen, probably Dan can answer more questions, like cost, than I can, and of course I only consult, not a paid consultant either, I am sure Dan can sort it out, but if I can help, or you want to keep me in the loop I am here, just PM me, happy to help any way I can.

Michael

Thanks matey, PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by Gibs:
Thanks matey, PM sent.

Hey Gibs and all you Aussie boys, Daryl now has his Meplat website up and running. While I have not gone completely through it yet, Daryl is tenacious and a perfectionist, it looks pretty spiffy. He can help you guys get these bullets, he is a CEB dealer. Check it out.

http://www.meplat.com.au/


Michael

Michael, I noticed the pic of your sons buff, the hole was more of a slit, I assume that was the entrance hole. The blue wildebeest I shot in the SAVE last week had a similar looking entrance hole. I was shooting thru a bit of brush and assumed I had hit brush and keyholed the animal. The shot went in on the front of the right shoulder traveled thru the length of the animal and exited low in the belly on the left Side and then thru the back leg at about knee height. It ran off about 50 yards and just stood there head hanging down. Next shot was hard angle quartering away, shot in just in front of left front leg exit front chest. Of course straight down. Shooting the 500MDM of course. Is the slit normal. All of the other critters I shot on this trip had holes. Except the nyala, it had a 6" by 3" entrance hole low behind front leg, shooting uphill.

quote:

Originally posted by brent ebeling:
Michael, I noticed the pic of your sons buff, the hole was more of a slit, I assume that was the entrance hole. The blue wildebeest I shot in the SAVE last week had a similar looking entrance hole. I was shooting thru a bit of brush and assumed I had hit brush and keyholed the animal. The shot went in on the front of the right shoulder traveled thru the length of the animal and exited low in the belly on the left Side and then thru the back leg at about knee height. It ran off about 50 yards and just stood there head hanging down. Next shot was hard angle quartering away, shot in just in front of left front leg exit front chest. Of course straight down. Shooting the 500MDM of course. Is the slit normal. All of the other critters I shot on this trip had holes. Except the nyala, it had a 6" by 3" entrance hole low behind front leg, shooting uphill.

Brent, I think that large slit you are talking about on Matts buff is the one we cut with a knife to remove those North Forks.

Regardless, you bring up an excellent point concerning the BBW#13s and bullet entry. If you are shooting at an angle, the BBW#13 entrance will tell you, and what angle it was as well. The way the bullet enters, will be the hole on the entrance skin. If angled, entrance wills show that angle. That big redskin I shot was a severe angle behind the shoulder, and the entrance showed that exact angle. Straight on shot--big perfect round hole.

In the case of your wildebeast, you may have hit brush for sure? I wished I had taken some photos of that Redskin entrance, but it pointed exactly in the bullet path, and found the bullet on that same exact line too--4 ft later. That was a 420 BBW#13 NonCon from the 475 B&M.

Tell us some more about what you saw with the 500 MDM and the 335s? Animal reactions, terminals what have you, and did you pop an eland?

And, welcome home, glad you returned safely!

Michael