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Just exactly like my damned kids, no ears! It's like I am not even saying anything, just right on by my comment like it didn't exist! Just like my kids! HEH HEH HEH......... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I wish we could get some stop action photos of the penetration as it is happening. If the following statement is true, it would be interesting to see it happen. "projectile fragmentation can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy." WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY by M.L. Fackler, M.D. Also, if the above is true, not all noncons act in the same manner. The NF "cup flat nose" noncons do not fragment and therefore do not create this effect. I'm not saying the NFs are not effective, just that there effectiveness results from a different action. Perhaps the sharp edges of the slightly expanded nose weaken the immediate area of the wound channel increasing the damage done "by a given amount of kinetic energy." | |||
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Well Michael you are a master twig and animal killer. I still think you used that ricochet on purpose  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Michael, I think its called selective hearing, starts at the age of three and only gets worse with age...lol Great story, and a spectacular moose Matt Simply, Elegant but always approachable | |||
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What I have dubbed the "Circle OF Death" is probably more acurate to be called the "Cone Of Death". The petals are sure taking advantage of the media movement of the initial transfer of energy. Kind of like small yet vicious piranha swimming down stream instead of upstream using the flow of media to the advantage of penetration and damage. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You just may get your wish at high speed video soon. I think the quality of brass staying sharp unlike copper and lead adds to the damage from the petals and the base.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Here are a couple of pictures of a bull elephant I shot with the .474 500 grain CEB #13 last year. First pic is the amount the ele was able to travel after one of these bullets broke his spine on a running shot. The second is a finisher into the ear hole. Michael's ear shot on the lope reminded me of this shot. 465H&H   | |||
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I told you that 90 grain would be enough in 6.5 Btw. are that max loads for it in the 6.5WSM? I would think you can push it some hundred f/s more. But I don't know how the bullets are when it comes to pressure compared with lead core bullets. The 375 is looking good. Looking forward to a test in close to max loaded 375H&H and 375 Ruger speed  | |||
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LOL… Those 90gr 6.5s Raptors after they shed their petals look almost like those Woodleigh “nipple head” bullets!  I wonder if the .375 Raptors are slightly heavy…perhaps they’d give better performance at 200gr. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I also thought of the hydro when I saw that. Would be cool I see a top view. I think the 230 is great for the 375 raptor. They should get 3,000 fps out of a 375 Ruger or HH with top loads. Should make a 375 HH a 600 yard gun As I said before Raptors love velocity. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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465HH, wow, that elephant is plowing a garden looks like! Hey I am good at that ear shot! HEH......, but still ain't taking that angle shot of yours! Maybe when I grow up and can shoot as good as you can? You would think I would have grown up by now? Hmmmmm....... On the Raptors, BBW#13s and the destruction they do is just incredible. I have to go right back to the comments I hear, and even now find myself repeating; "Ain't never seen nothing like that!" Trees, Sticks and Twigs! Back in 2007 on the first outing with the 50 B&M, after bumping two medium bull elephants with Andrew and Dudley, Dudley dropped us off via air with Ross Johnston of HHK. Ross and I had 5 or 6 buffalo to mop up, end of the season cleanup some quota sort of thing. Well Ross and I got on just dandy, and friends to this day! In fact, look forward to seeing Ross at DSC and having some beers! We made it a standard, No Buffalo--No Beer! My idea, gives me some incentive to clean things out you know! Of course the first afternoon was exempt from this rule as we had just arrived in one of the Matetsi areas and did not have the lay of the land, so I could not see that as being quite fair, so I delayed that ruling, No buffalo-No Beer until the next day! As it turned out we cleaned up the quota in 3.5 days all the quota was in the dirt! We had beer for breakfast, lunch, dinner, after dinner, before dinner, sometimes before breakfast as well. It was a good time for all! Oh, and in fact first time I met that show off, what's his name......You know, the guy on TV, Elephant Whisperer.....????? Whatever, somewhat of a show off smart ass I figure. Anyway Ross and I had a buff about 40 yds or so, just away from the herd a bit, and behind the only piece of brush within 1/2 mile! Tiny little nothing of a piece of brush, the biggest twig in the whole mess could not have been more than a 1/4 inch! Buffalo was just slightly angling away from with starboard side showing. Easy shot, on sticks, I said wait, Ross said shoot, I said wait till he clears the brush, Ross wanted a beer said shoot through the brush, I said wait it will move in a second, Ross wanted two beers said my 50 B&M would do it, shoot, I got to thinking about a beer then, so I shot!!!!! Buffalo bucks up, turns to port, runs into the herd, no chance for a second shot, buffalo GONE!!!!!!!! Getting very close to dark, maybe 30 minutes of light left. Tracking just a tiny drop of blood, here and there, not much. Found a tiny piece of lung tissue, about the size of ones fingernail, and that is it. Herd did not go far, we did not see our buffalo! Dark! Back to camp! No Beer! OK OK OK, I changed the rules on the beer, we did have beer, but it was not "Happy Beer" it was "Sad Beer", there is a big difference you know! I felt bad, know what happened, but it would now be morning before we could sort it out! Morning comes! Early as we can see we are on the scene, me and a tracker and momma one way, Ross and a tracker the other way. After about 15 minutes I heard Ross's Rat rifle fire less than 50 yds away, I took off in a dead run towards him and there he stood, pointed at the buffalo under a tree standing broadside, telling me it got up, started to him and he popped in on the nose with the 375. Well of course it was a 375 so it didn't do much, just kinda gave it a headache I reckon, still standing there in the shadows, I could not see which end was ass, which end was head???? Ross pointed the head end out, and I went to work with the 50 and did not stop until the magazine was empty and the buffalo was down for good! It was good to me, you know I like to shoot! Upon closer inspection my shot from the evening before had in fact lost stability, hitting the buffalo sideways and just barely nipping the back end of 1 lung only. It was a sick buffalo all night, I am sorry for that, would not have had that happen on purpose of course. But the bullet did in fact deflect, loose stability and was a problem, even a .500 caliber can do this! Well, Ross and I were not done shooting sticks and such yet! Late that very evening as I recall I had busted a buffalo and had it down, herd was still hanging pretty close so Ross wanted that second beer, so off we go. Hell he is running hell out of me, I get on the sticks for one that is quartering to me at only about 60 yds or so. I am huffing and puffing, up and down, settle in as quickly as I can get control of my breathing, and get on the front of the chest. Buffalo was standing behind a fallen and burned black log. I shot, buffalo turned and ran off, no effect, no noise of hitting, NOTHING. OK, this is the episode where I snatched the bolt so hard it came out of the rifle, slipping past the bolt stop, Ross thought I was having a heart attack, but when the bolt came out of the rifle I could not stop the momentum and my arm and bolt kept going, but my shoulder didn't like that too much! So I was on the ground saying nasty things about buffalo and Ross! HEH HEH HEH.......>! The buffalo was gone, herd was gone everything. Once I recovered and rubbed the dirt off the bolt, put it back in and made sure it was not coming out again, we investigated. You know buffalo are black right? OK, it's getting close to dark again, and that log was blackened by fire. When we went to where the buffalo was standing there was a stick about 1 inch in diameter that was dead in front of the chest of that buffalo. The bullet had hit that stick and deflected into another stick 5 ft to the left of where the buffalo was standing. No blood, no buffalo, but I had two dead sticks! I broke that stick off and brought it home as well, I have it in the lab as a reminder of such things! We had beer anyway, because I did get that one buffalo in the dirt that was about a 100 yds back! So that counted. Then we had a "Sad Beer" too because of the stick episode. Trees, Sticks and Twigs can be a problem there is no doubt about it! I really don't think any bullet will be, ever has been immune to Trees, sticks, or twigs! We get lucky sometimes I think, sometimes not so lucky! To Be Continued; Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Now I understand everything!! Everyone grab the tinfoil and make a protective tent for your brain. It's obvious that long ago Michael was taken over by aliens from the flying saucer at Roswell!!  No telling what kind of alien thoughts he's been spreading. Or he's an alien who was stranded on earth after the crash of his UFO and has been trying to advance our civilization, little by little, while he waits for the mother ship. Or maybe his mission as an alien missionary is to equip us with new weapons technology so we can defend earth from the space invaders.  Which ever, Roswell is the answer.  | |||
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What Michael has proven with the above experience is that the 50 caliber bolt rifle isn't enough for buff (had to empty the rifle for one little buff) and second if he had been using a double, he wouldn't have had to worry about the bolt trash coming apart at a critical time. Probably more lessons here if one cares to look!  465H&H | |||
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What Michael has proven with the above experience is that the 50 caliber bolt rifle isn't enough for buff (had to empty the rifle for one little buff) and second if he had been using a double, he wouldn't have had to worry about the bolt trash coming apart at a critical time. Probably more lessons here if one cares to look! 465H&H[/QUOTE] You are just asking for trouble eh? Gotta stir the pot some  Damned old troublemaker I think! HEH............OK on that first one early that morning, the wounded one, the one that Ross hit in the noggin with the rat gun, two things going on here, one, I had not had my breakfast beer yet and had to get that buff in the dirt just as quickly as possible! #2--I could not tell which end was which, which was ass, which was head,it was in the shadows and I could not see, so I figured fill it full of holes and surely to god one of them would work! Yep, I snatched the bolt so hard I snatched it out of the gun! I am rough on things, this is what makes me a good test subject, if it can be broke, I can break it! If I had a double I would first thing snatch the bolt off of it, if I could find it! LOL..... Next, when I went to reload I would break it down so hard that I would break it in two pieces, barrels in left hand, stock and receiver in the right, and then I would be screwed for real cause I could not put it back together!!!!!! So I figure, better to snatch the bolt out of one than to break one in half and be left "Holding the Sack" HEH HEH.... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, you should do mounts for your trophy twigs Would be a cheap taxidermy bill You could write a great article for the gun rags "Dangerous twigs" or "Shooting AT sticks" 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy, seems I am a stick killing SOB! IBT
I have always felt a little out of place, like I just don't fit in or something! Oh, wait I was from NC originally and still had all my teeth when I left there! I think I was the only one with teeth then! Maybe that's it? And, I did not have any sisters to marry, so I had to move away!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yeap, that is when the real work starts, after the shot/kill. I just wonder how many hunters there would be in the world, if everyone had to process their own animals (every animal)all the way to the freezer and table. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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You could count my ass "RETIRED"! I'd be hunting with one of those laser guns on the big screen!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Michael, let me translate m/m in to inches for you. 9.3 m/m = .366". Now where does .375" stand??????  Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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 I like my version better! http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well ok, one helper dealing with any animal over 500 lbs. Two helpers over 1000 lbs. And if the animal is weighed by the tons a villege came help. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Hold up now, I got to have a fellow to hold the rear legs of the squirrel as I skin'em back over the head!!!! And how many guys do I get for the rabbits??????? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Ok Michael, there are some calibers that I do not care for either. .243, .277. .284, .338, 358, .366 (too close to .375), .416(I have a .458). So, I guess I understand. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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You guys going to DSC should set up a game consol with the big game video game for bragging rights and getting out of paying for drinks. The brass round ball might be the best in terms of "twig bullet performance" since stability is not an issue just deflection. Maybe a .729" brass round ball would be the real brush busting "round" for DG in the thick stuff. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Well Boys, it's getting kinda late over here, dark already, soon be time to turn in. I will have to wait until morning to finish up my long dissertation on the art of killing, "Trees, Sticks, and Twigs"...... I think it worth the wait however. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Gee Michael I do not KNOW how many helpers it takes for you, but for rabbits and squires, those I alway did by my self. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Yep, I knew we could find some common ground! LOL........... I hate 270s! I always favored Keith over O'Conner! But I really must be careful, as I am friends with Brad O'Conner, we are in contact frequently, very nice fellow. 7mm--Every hillbilly redneck in SC has a 7mm, thinks it's a cannon suitable for buffalo and elephant! Yep, that's the damned truth, I have been told that before! Hate 7s would not be caught dead with one around! Rather had dirty underwear! 375-- Common, every bloke that goes to Africa goes with 375! Aint' nothing common about me! Don't want no common crap around neither! 243--WHY??? What is that? Kinda like the mediums, 338 and 358. But now really like my little 9.3 as a squirrel rifle of course. 416--Ho Hum, taking a nap, nothing wrong with one, I like them ok, getting sleepy now, boring! 458 Yep, 474, getting better, .500 real good to me, 510 just a fat .500! HEH...... We are all a little nuts I think! Oh and speaking of help for the rabbit and squirrels, I found a cure for the problem. If I don't have any help around to skin and clean them proper for me, I just shoot them with one of the big BBW#13 NonCons rear end entry, takes care of cleaning out the insides real good, and blows the skin right off! No fuss at all! Blades are a little tough on ur teeth however--- http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Whew, you guys wearing me down, and it's getting real late now, nearly 7 PM in the middle of the night! Had some fun this afternoon with this, enjoyed. Catch you guys in the daylight! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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(#4 German) Me too, getting it from Midsouth, they are having a bit of a sale. $260 for the scope, $269 plus change shipped and insured(total) Their regular price shows $279.95 just for the scope. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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I prefer Dukes myself--------- Do you have a good recipe for Long Pig??????? SSR | |||
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Oh and speaking of help for the rabbit and squirrels, I found a cure for the problem. If I don't have any help around to skin and clean them proper for me, I just shoot them with one of the big BBW#13 NonCons rear end entry, takes care of cleaning out the insides real good, and blows the skin right off! No fuss at all! Blades are a little tough on ur teeth however--- If the non-com blades will stay in a squirrel, you need to do some redisgning!  465H&H | |||
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The humor is all enjoyable, but the lessons learned are serious. The twig stories illustrate what we all know. Smaller calibres can take buffalo but in the real world things happen that can use some extra support. Two items pretty much out of the hunter's control are animals that move at the break of the trigger and invisible obstacles. I may be guilty of not getting close enough to minimize these two. For 'extra support' read 'extra energy' and 'extra diameter'. If Michael's first twig story had used a little 3500 foot lb. .366", the buffalo may not have been sick enough to lay up for the next morning. Or maybe it would. But the extra size and energy didn't hurt. The reason we choose larger calibres is to provide extra safety margins. That is why the 416Rigby is an excellent antelope gun, though I have much more experience with the 338WM and have always been happy with it (except for the little oribi that got away LOL). Meanwhile, this thread has taught me to get the best bullet that I can and to consider 500 calibre for buffalo. It's an extra margin and sometimes PH's aren't around either. The second shot needs to be reliable and fast and big. Hopefully, my 500AccR will be fast on the second shot. I'll find out next year. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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So it seems as far as the "rat bore" Raptors are concerned the 6.5 needs to be about 90 grains 224 40 and 50 grain 6mm maybe 70 257 maybe 80 270 maybe 100 7mm maybe 110 130 grain 308 is established Conventiomal weights do not apply to non conventional brass hollow points and BBW solids. I'd like to see a 80 grain Raptor designed for the 6.8 SPC magazine length as well for some AQ Taliban whacking. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Norwegianwoods: I told you that 90 grain would be enough in 6.5 Btw. are that max loads for it in the 6.5WSM? I would think you can push it some hundred f/s more. But I don't know how the bullets are when it comes to pressure compared with lead core bullets. This was a 6.5 WSSM the little short sucker not the 6.5 WSM. I think we can do close to 4000 fps with the WSM. That little noncon performed mighty well in the super short. All this talk about twigs and sticks reminds me of when a friend shot at a deer from a tree stand with a 350 Rem Mag with 250 grain RNs. I heard him shoot 3 times. When I went to to help him drag out all the deer. He had shot 3 times at one deer as it walked around he tree looking up at him. We found no blood and the next morning went back to look some more. I had him go up the tree to show me where the deer was each time he shot. The shot was only about 30 yards. That deer had angels watching over it. At each place we saw a limb with a bullet hole through it maybe half way between the tree and the deer. What are the odds of hitting three different limbs. You would have thought a 358 250 grain bullet would be a brush buster. Well it was but it didn't make it to the deer. I also remember seeing a 405 grain 45-70 bullet go to pieces on a 2 inch tree and missing a deer 10 feet behind it. We found about 6 hits of pieces of the bullet in trees behind that deer. Sam | |||
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That's why I get very annoyed when someone calls a cartridge a 'brush buster'. I've had 6.5x55, 44 mag , and 45-70 deflect .The last two of course are always called brush busters ! My mystery shot was at a feral cat ,40 yds out , in high grass. I could barely see him but fired my 45 acp. I looked for the hole .Pushing aside the long fur I couldn't find the hole .Checked the mouth , no damage. Finally I saw a 1/4" x 1.5" strip where the fur was shaved off centered above the spine .That's when I appreciated the 45acp -it could kill without penetrating the skin.  | |||
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For the life of me I cannot figure why this thread has not earned permanent status at the top of this forum. | |||
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My mistake  To many letters and I also have been considering getting a 6.5 WSM built for myself, so that was all I could see I have a 6.5-06 now and I am really looking forward to test the bullet later on I have yet to find a cartridge that is a tree and twig buster. Only ammo I have ever used that was reliable to shoot trough trees and still hit straight was a time I had some armor piercing ammo with wolfram core for my 30-06 | |||
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Trees, Sticks, and Twigs Continued; For a long time I wanted to play with doing some test work shooting through some sticks and whatever I could find to see how some bullets might deflect more than others, maybe find something that works a good bit of the time, and also just curious more so about how the BBW#13s and North Forks do in the stick and twig and tree arena. Very curious about what a NonCon would do. But, like many things this always gets put off because other more important things come along. And too, I really don't think much can be accomplished, I don't believe there is a bullet made that is 100% reliable as a brush buster! It would mostly be work without a definitive outcome. But there is still that curious nature about me. Then over the weekend our friend Mike, 450NE here, sent some photos to me. Mike has a 50 B&M Super Short, and he has been shooting the little 300 gr Hornady Flex in it with great success. Of course I have, we have, tested this little bullet I think even beyond 2400 fps and it did really great. I consider it an excellent reasonable priced general purpose bullet for the 50 B&M Super Shorts. Problem is, Mike shot through some "Trees" with it! Here is what he sent;      Now I am not sure I have these photos in the right order, or what hit what first, or second, or even third. The story was I shot at a deer and hit these trees! I asked did he hit the deer, and oh yes he did, and the deer is in the freezer right now as far as I know. I have not got the full story on it just yet, I know he is looking in, so Mike give us some info on this if you get a chance. This of course bumps my desire to do something with this to see what happens! So before Sam arrived Tuesday morning I gathered up some 4x4 treated blocks I had saved, not sure what I was saving them for to begin with, somewhat of a pack rat sometimes, but I decided that if we got a chance we might have some fun with these. I needed to get them up high enough in front of the target, but did not have anything immediately handy, so I gathered a couple of blocks, and some other scrap and just stacked some things high enough to get the blocks lined up with the target behind. Of course "smartass" come in and said "That won't work, the blocks will fall, divert the bullet"! Well, maybe, but that is all we got right now, and maybe the bullet is fast enough to get through the 4x4 Treated before it starts to move? HEH HEH...... You see we don't always agree, but we just do it anyway! Continued; http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thought I would break this in a couple of posts, to keep one from getting too long. So anyway we did set up 4x4 treated block 10 ft in front of the target, lined it up as best we could. I am on this 475 B&M kick right now, and I had loaded myself some 450 BBW#13 Solids up, and some 420 BBW#13 NonCons just to have a few rounds for the rifle, I had no prior intent to be testing them for anything, and in fact had slowed them down some for general use, 450 at 2150 and 420 at a touch over 2200. Not full max loads. I decided we would use the 475 B&M for this. I wanted to know if these bullets could bust through the 4x4 treated block and continue and hit the target behind! How much would it deflect? Would it go unstable? Hit Sideways? Who knows? I figured the BBW#13 Solid would do pretty good, but what about the NonCon? This is what it looked like at 10 ft  We shot a couple of solids and as far as we can tell they were never more than an inch off, hit square on, stable. I doubt they were an inch off, because it is very hard to line up the block and the center of the target, as you can't see the target, just kinda know about where it is. And then of course as you see one does not always hit dead center of the block either! Or the little mark that Sam made that we think is close to center of the target behind the block! Baxter and his Dad Charlie were on the scene as well. So it was time for the first NonCon, and we shot it all hell broke loose, making wood chips flying everywhere! Looked down at the target and I could not see a new hole? Declaring a miss! Baxter looked, and it was not a miss, it was in the SAME HOLE as the Solid!!!!!!!! That's a good POI for both to be in the same hole after going through a 4x4 Treated Block. This is 10 ft in front of the target now. Well, ok, let's move this back to 20 feet and see what happens. We arranged everything best we could 20 feet in front of the target. All shooting was done at the 25 yd bench.  We did this a couple of times, and no change at all--Bullets were busting through, going straight to the target, just like at 10 ft, never more than an inch off, and not real sure it was off at all! Here is what the 450 BBW#13 Solid does to the wood block.  The NonCon is pretty impressive.........    As you can very plainly see the blades are shearing, and right about 2 inches in the wood, and coming out the the back in a star pattern, path of the blades are very easy to pick out. Totally amazing. And then, at 20 ft hits the target every time! No upset, no instability, nothing! Of course the blades do not go that far and have dispersed all over the floor of the range behind the block. None did any damage that I can find after leaving the block. Well, the next obvious step would be to see what happens terminally after the bullets leave the 4x4 Block and have to go to work on a target 20 feet behind. So we set up "The Box" to see! The .474 caliber 450 gr BBW#13 Solid at around 2150 fps. We did not do any chronograph work, first we were having some fun, and second, no way I was setting up the impact chronograph for fear of damage to it. I felt pretty good about the solid, think it did a credible job. The fact that the last part of penetration went unstable comes as no surprise. It was dead stable right to 41 inches in the medium! How much it had slowed down after going through the 4x4????  The 420 BBW#13 NonCon was a bigger surprise however, much more so. This thing hit the test medium 20 ft behind the 4x4 block and drove dead straight to 25 inches!!!!!!!!! I really could not believe this, but here it is!   Sometime during the process we wanted to see if we could catch the blades after they exit the block to see any pattern as they exit. So we rigged one of the cardboard targets I use as backing up 3 ft behind the 4x4 Block. Here you see Baxter inspecting the cardboard, Charlie to the left and of course Sam on the right. I think there were blades going through, but so was a lot of wood chips as well, next time we have to get the cardboard closer to the block, probably 6 inches or so I figure! But will also have wood chips blowing through it to. You can also see the main bullet hole as it passes through on its way to the target 20 ft behind. Pretty fun stuff!  Shortly after the terminals with the two .474 BBW#13s, Baxter and Charlie had to leave us! I am quite sure that Charlie believes his Son Baxter is friends with a bunch of loonies! HEH HEH....... We enjoyed the visit a lot, good guys right here on AR! Sam and I still had that rat gun with some .375 230 Raptors, loaded as solids! Well, you know what we did eh? If you guessed that we had to shoot through a 4x4 treated block at 20 ft and test terminals, THEN YOU WIN THE PRIZE!!!!!!!! YES, that's exactly what we did with one bullet just to see what happened, and here it is!  And then to test one without the 4x4 Treated to see as well.  Less penetration after going through the 4x4 and 20 ft of air is of no surprise at all. To be perfectly stable to 35 inches is somewhat of a surprise! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yet another eye opening, fun experience! Now before someone starts some crap, what does this prove? What this proves beyond any shadow of a doubt is that a .474 caliber 450 gr BBW#13 Solid can go through a 4x4 Treated block of wood, stay on target that is 20 ft behind it, still strike and drive straight to 41 inches! That a .474 420 BBW#13 NonCon can drive through a 4x4 treated block, hit the target 20 ft behind, and drive straight to 25 inches, minus the blades! That is what this proves, and there is ZERO Doubt about that! Does this mean you can take the bullets to the woods, or the bush, shoot through 4 inch trees and kill dinosaurs that are up to 20 ft behind the tree???? No, I don't think so! But what it does say is that if you are unlucky enough to CENTER a 4 inch tree, and your deer, bear, or buffalo is 20 ft behind that 4 inch tree you just might be lucky enough to get the job done in spite of it! This is one more reason to continue to shoot until you know the problem is solved, or you cannot shoot anymore! You never know when a tree will pop up in front of you sometimes! WOw, it was fun to do I tell you! We needed a break from doing normal test work for sure! I have in mind some new things to work with in the near future along these lines, and in the process already of getting some things prepared so that we can study "Trees, Sticks, and Twigs a little more in the future. There is no doubt that "Trees, Sticks, and Twigs" is a bothersome thing to us as hunters, always has been and always will be for us woods and bush hunters! Open plains, not too much of an issue, but even on the open plains sometimes there are obstacles to worry with! Will enjoy discussion on this subject here, as no doubt it is important, and it is part of "Terminal Bullet Performance" Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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