FOOBAR--

Allow me to answer briefly as having a rifle that currently does not feed the Barnes .416" FlatNose solids.

I do not want to compromise on the flatnose because only the flatnose 'guarantees' straightline penetration from rump to neck in a buffalo. I do not want a follow-up shot to exit the side of the stomach before pentrating the lungs/heart/neck. So I don't want a bullet with a small flatnose and lots of rounding. Such rounded bullets are not reliablly straight for the full journey. Instead, I've bought a dremel that I will take to Tanzania next year and will get the one 416 feeding like the other 416 that already feeds.

That is the only safe approach. In this case, the rifle is the 'least-expensive' piece of equipment because I don't want doctors to be repairing me after a buffalo got away, only to charge again in another spot.

srose,
With which bullet are you having spectaculart results with load? I'm open to something new. I worked up a load for a Blaser S2 that shot very well but very slow. Looking for something in a premium bullet, like the CEB, that shines.
Thanks
Rick

Rick,

Are you asking for 470 NE? If so my gun shoots great with the CEB 500 grain solid and matching non con. The load is 106 grs of IMR 4831. There is no better expanding bullet than the non con and it is more like a two part bomb and penetrator.

Sam

Thank you sir! Yes I am referring to the .470 NE. When I get my bullets, I will give that load a try and see what it does.
Again, thanks
Rick

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
FOOBAR--

Allow me to answer briefly as having a rifle that currently does not feed the Barnes .416" FlatNose solids.

I do not want to compromise on the flatnose because only the flatnose 'guarantees' straightline penetration from rump to neck in a buffalo. I do not want a follow-up shot to exit the side of the stomach before pentrating the lungs/heart/neck. So I don't want a bullet with a small flatnose and lots of rounding. Such rounded bullets are not reliablly straight for the full journey. Instead, I've bought a dremel that I will take to Tanzania next year and will get the one 416 feeding like the other 416 that already feeds.

That is the only safe approach. In this case, the rifle is the 'least-expensive' piece of equipment because I don't want doctors to be repairing me after a buffalo got away, only to charge again in another spot.

416Tazan,

How many RN steel jacketed bullets have you seen veer off course in game? You are worrying about a non-event. There are reasons to select a FN bullet over a RN bullet but veering isn't one of them

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
FOOBAR--

Allow me to answer briefly as having a rifle that currently does not feed the Barnes .416" FlatNose solids.

I do not want to compromise on the flatnose because only the flatnose 'guarantees' straightline penetration from rump to neck in a buffalo. I do not want a follow-up shot to exit the side of the stomach before pentrating the lungs/heart/neck. So I don't want a bullet with a small flatnose and lots of rounding. Such rounded bullets are not reliablly straight for the full journey. Instead, I've bought a dremel that I will take to Tanzania next year and will get the one 416 feeding like the other 416 that already feeds.

That is the only safe approach. In this case, the rifle is the 'least-expensive' piece of equipment because I don't want doctors to be repairing me after a buffalo got away, only to charge again in another spot.

416Tazan,

How many RN steel jacketed bullets have you seen veer off course in game? You are worrying about a non-event. There are reasons to select a FN bullet over a RN bullet but veering isn't one of them

465H&H

Surely you've heard the stories of the hunters who have had their solids spin around and land near them or even hit them? Of course, those are extremely rare and probably involve strange deflections and bendings of the bullets. Nevertheless, Michael's tests are consistent enough that he can't play with roundnoses anymore for the sake of his boxes and shooting room. I'm not worried about the bullets that end up two inches off course after fifty inches. The ones to avoid are the ones that exit the box after 30-36 inches. For throwing a precisely placed 'strike' I prefer a fastball to a knuckleball.

There were some problems with early Kynoch solids with out steel jackets and with Hemispherical RN solids like the early Barnes and A2. That all changed when Rigby introduced the steel jacketed solids for the 400/350 and the 416 Rigby. Even John Taylor spoke glowingly of the Rigby SJ solids. It is true that RN bullets veer badly in wet newsprint. But that doesn't mean they do the same in game. I have kept track of the number of reports on here of solids veering. So far I have 3 RN steel jacketed solids and two FN mono-metal solids veering off coarse in game. Hardly damning stats for either.

465H&H

Hummmmm...I won't buy that "turn around and hit me" story...adjusting the rifle to fit a particular bullet configuration isn't "breaking it", it is "fixing it", more or less...because you happen to like/want a specific bullet..I have no problem with that.

I've had to do the same thing to several of my oddball wildcats because of the way the rifle happened to feed, and the available bullet nose profiles I wanted to use...BUT...I worked on the bullets first, then the action a bit...back and forth until things worked out.

I suppose it boils down to being rifle and bullet specific as to which way you go...no matter what, BOTH have to function as close to perfect as possible in certain shooting situations. Almost every rifle I've had needed a tune up to work best.

Some cast lead bullets need a fairly rounded or at least a sharp angle at the nose tip plus a nicely polished and contoured ramp to feed...jacketed and solid brass can hang here and there depending on COAL, profiles, and the differences between push feed and controlled round feed impinge also...so there isn't a direct simple answer I think, that covers all.

I've spent a lot of time at the lathe fiddling nose profiles and making dummies and keeping my motodremel buzzing. It's always interesting and pleasurable and the questions arrive by the truckload.

From one perspective, kinetic energy is what keeps the bullets going and as soon as that energy starts dropping off maybe the rounded nosed bullets rotational direction and energy tends to push/pull it off course or the bone, muscle mass causes things to happen.

If the bullet gets into the vital organ area, I would actually rather it turn into a spinning chain saw and really chew things up, then go out the opposite side leaving a really HUGE hole and sucking out blood and pieces and parts along with it.

One thing for certain, Michael's testing is definitely more "scientific" and repeatable. Jamming a stick down through the wound channel leaves much to be desired after the game has finally expired, to decipher where the bullet finally ended up and the direction of travel.

No matter what...if you are mucking about doing that, the bullet must have worked, but that is not to say that a different design wouldn't have worked better...OR worse. Thank Michael for his work showing new things and ways of thinking.

One thing about solid hollow points that don't break apart...Way in the past a particularly nasty biker covered in leather got popped several times with the then FBI issued very large hole hollow points...he then commenced to take out both agents, shot up their car and also shot the HE** out of a few more cops, all with a Ruger Mini-14, before being terminated.

The large hole in the hollow point acted like a punch when they went into the leather jacket...BUT...the leather filled the holes and the bullets acted like solids and just zipped right through doing very little damage.

Cup points and sharp shouldered bullets that cut holes rather than just spread the meat apart, are much more effective in leaving a nice large "squirt hole".

Now, some forward looking entrepeneur needs to incorporate the cup point, sharp cutting shoulder, large meplat, solid brass/copper into something that also travels straight and leaves a nice hollow tube behind it...if that isn't somehow illegal...shouldn't be too difficult with CNC machinery available.

Luck

Good Morning Gents!

I see you guys had a very very busy day yesterday, and sorry I missed out on some things. I had a real Company meeting here with some of my guys from all over the SE, and was totally tied up and bound with that until late!

Still busy as hell today, since I missed getting my normal work completed, it has stacked up high on my desk, and I must get some of that cleared this morning as well.


I am not even going to get into the round nose veering issue, as it is a fact, 100% of the time in my test medium. Potential to do so in animal tissue, fact. Fact, they have and can veer off course in animal tissue, I have see it personally with some bullets designed for me in .500 caliber, more than once. And, I have documented cases of several other round nose designs veering off course in elephant heads, buffalo and other such critters. Now, like FN solids, all round nose solids are NOT CREATED EQUAL as well. We all know many factors are included in straight line penetration, with Nose Profile being at the top of the list. Some FN are not any better than a round nose, some round nose actually better than some FN bullets. In GENERAL, most FN solids will do better in depth and straight line penetration, but not always. Other factors begin to come into play seriously, Meplat Size, twist rates, velocities, construction, radius and of recent discovery, nose projection. So one size fits all, does not work in this arena. But, I am not going there in depth, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN..................

Next order of business, FooBar quick and dirty answer to your main question! Why not alter the cheapest part of the component to feed and function, being the bullet? Answer: I will not sacrifice performance of a very expensive, and sometimes dangerous hunt, for going the cheap route to alter a bullet designed for superior performance. To begin with, I will not take a rifle to the field that has not feed and function 100% and that rifle has to shoot and function with the proper bullet for the mission to undertake. If that mission is buffalo, hippo, elephant, that rifle is going to feed the very best of bullets that give me the optimal success rate and the best opportunity to be successful. When it comes to these things, I have no room for compromise, and I don't negotiate!

OK--I started this post this morning at 5:30 AM--It is now 4:20 PM. I am just now getting back to it, and I am lost as a Baby goat as to where I was, what I was talking about, and what I was trying to convey!!!!!!!!!

I got busy this morning on another project after starting the post above, then Sam came by and he and I were doing some things, then another friend of mine stopped by and we worked up a very light load for him with the 308 130 Raptors. Sam and I shot some new 55 gr 223 Raptors for stability, no real good news there. Talked to Dan, Talked to Wes at Accurate Innovations, and so forth, so on, and on and on until just now! This is a hectic place sometimes, not to mention all the remodeling that is still going on and on and ON.........................

Some news, about stocks that I am rather pleased with, Wes now has the capability to do Winchester M70 WSSM stocks! This means that Sam and I packed up one of my 50 B&M Super Shorts (which has always been limited to the wonderful little Ultimate Winchester Stock) and sent it out to Accurate Innovations for a new WOOD STOCK!!!!!! Not even sure what blank or wood we are going to use yet! But this is going to be nice! Just FYI is all!

I have to do some other things, going to take me some time to catch back up with you guys!
Michael

quote:

I am not even going to get into the round nose veering issue, as it is a fact, 100% of the time in my test medium. Potential to do so in animal tissue, fact. Fact, they have and can veer off course in animal tissue, I have see it personally with some bullets designed for me in .500 caliber, more than once. And, I have documented cases of several other round nose designs veering off course in elephant heads, buffalo and other such critters. Now, like FN solids, all round nose solids are NOT CREATED EQUAL as well. We all know many factors are included in straight line penetration, with Nose Profile being at the top of the list. Some FN are not any better than a round nose, some round nose actually better than some FN bullets. In GENERAL, most FN solids will do better in depth and straight line penetration, but not always. Other factors begin to come into play seriously, Meplat Size, twist rates, velocities, construction, radius and of recent discovery, nose projection. So one size fits all, does not work in this arena. But, I am not going there in depth, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN..................

Michael my friend,

We have had this discussion before. Your medium well excellent for testing FN solids simply does not work for RN solids. If it did every RN solid shot into elephants or buffalo would veer off course. The RN solids that you shot into game and misbehaved were home made solids along the design of the original Barnes RN mono bullet or A2 bullet. I could have told you before you ever shot a game wit one that they would have probably misbehaved. Equating these bullets to RN [EMAIL]STEEL[/EMAIL] jacketed solids in there possibility to veer is unfair. We can do the tests in pine boards and we will see the RN out penetrating the FN and flying just as straight. Select your medium and prove your point. Now the FN solids like the NF and CEB are excellent bullets, they penetrate deeper in soft tissue than RN steel jacketed solids but in head shots on elephants the RN goes at least as deep if not deeper than the FN mono solids. If we are going to learn what works and why we need to be fair and report what we see in game. Yes there is the potential for RN solids to veer in game but that is also true for FN mono solids. We have had two such reports on this forum. There is not enough field report data of veering in game to be able to say that veering is more common in one type than the other.

465H&H

Michael
Did you test 50 or 55 grain raptors?
Seems the Raptors in 22 will be 40 and 50 grain as well as
6mm 65 grain
257 70 and 80 grain
6.5 100 grain
270 110 grain
7mm 115 and 130
308 130 grain
338 175, 200 and 225
358 200 grain
9,3 will be about 220
375 230
Not sure the weights of the larger ones yet.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael my friend,

We have had this discussion before. Your medium well excellent for testing FN solids simply does not work for RN solids. If it did every RN solid shot into elephants or buffalo would veer off course. The RN solids that you shot into game and misbehaved were home made solids along the design of the original Barnes RN mono bullet or A2 bullet. I could have told you before you ever shot a game wit one that they would have probably misbehaved. Equating these bullets to RN [EMAIL]STEEL[/EMAIL] jacketed solids in there possibility to veer is unfair. We can do the tests in pine boards and we will see the RN out penetrating the FN and flying just as straight. Select your medium and prove your point. Now the FN solids like the NF and CEB are excellent bullets, they penetrate deeper in soft tissue than RN steel jacketed solids but in head shots on elephants the RN goes at least as deep if not deeper than the FN mono solids. If we are going to learn what works and why we need to be fair and report what we see in game. Yes there is the potential for RN solids to veer in game but that is also true for FN mono solids. We have had two such reports on this forum. There is not enough field report data of veering in game to be able to say that veering is more common in one type than the other.

465H&H

465HH--My Friend as well! Oh yes, we have had, and most likely always will have this discussion from time to time, and that is ok with me! While on some points we do disagree, on most others we are in alliance. My homemade Bastard filed bullets were made by Lehigh, and if I had to compare a nose profile they are more in alignment with the Woodleigh 500 gr 470 bullet than anything else. Now do note that I state without doubt, all RN are not created equal, just as all FN are not created equal as well, there are some good and bad or maybe, less/more in both.

I do not believe for a second that I am being unfair in any way to the common RN. As I have never stated that they will VEER off Course 100% of the time, in animal tissue. Plain fact of the matter, like ALL bullets tested in my test medium, even the RN do better in animal tissue, than in the test medium. As stated many times, expanding conventional bullets will behave EXACTLY in animal tissue as they do in the test medium, and penetrate from 80% to 100% more in animal tissue. Solids, different, in all cases I have confirmed in animal tissue, then one gets on average 35% more penetration in animal tissue than in the test medium. Probably the two best RN designs I have tested are the two 458 caliber Woodleighs, 500gr and your beloved 550 gr bullet. Going on memory mostly just now, the data computer is shut down for the night, but I believe that I would average something like 23-25 inches straight with the 500gr and 28-30 with the 550 gr. before they veer off course, with the 500 gr penetrating total around 30 inches and the 550 around 35 inches.

Now, taking your beloved 550 gr Woodleigh RN STEEL jacketed at 30 inches straight, +35% as my calculator tells me that this should go 45-46 inches before it has the "POTENTIAL" The POTENTIAL now, not anything else, to veer off course. And a total penetration of 53 inches on average.

Now I have ZERO data correlating Round Nose Solids from test medium to animal tissue. This is ASSUMED that being a solid it would have the same potential of 35% better penetration overall in animal tissue than the test medium like all the Flat Nose Solids I have got data on to correlate the two mediums. This includes some more "Homemade" bastard file bullets from Lehigh, Barnes Banded, and the current BBW#13s.

Now it very well could be there is a different correlation factor with a RN vs a FN? I don't know this, as I have never! And, sorry to say, Never Will! HEH.......... I see no reason to have concerns about shooting a RN, or even why there is a concern. We know, from experience, that the FN solids do in fact behave like they do in the test medium, deep and straight. From elephant heads, that both Sam and I have studied with BBW#13s, Others have stated this fact as well. From buffalo body shots, hippo included, body shots, and so forth.

Now there are FN failures, I know of two Noslers that failed just this past season, not a week apart! I think both of them bent. I have known of Copper based FN solids that the nose has deformed after hitting bone and they veered off course! Now do recall my words, All FN Solids Are Not Created Equal, and the RN as well. That is NOW, after much study much too broad a term to make 100% statements! Both these failures ARE NOT because they were FLAT NOSE PROFILE---But both are CONSTRUCTION & MATERIAL failures.

Remember our T'Rex tests with the 1.25 inch concrete blocks? We learned then that brass is tougher than copper, in the same exact design. Material. We also know that elephant heads are not as tough and mean as those two 1.25 inch concrete blocks, actually "Cinder" blocks, not concrete! You have a copper BBW#13 .474 two band that went on it's travels in an elephant head, not mangled up too bad, the cinder block T'Rex mangles copper ugly. I have used copper solids on elephant and buffalo with great success however, but the potential is always there to mangle one in some manner. Brass and other harder metals can be mangled as well, no doubt, but not as likely or not quite the same degree as copper. Construction and Material is one of our major factors in Solid Terminal Performance.

You are correct, if we stick a stack of 1 inch boards tightly together, whatever depth, the Round Nose Solid will most times penetrate as deep as the Flat Nose Solids! And further more, it will drive straight, and to the best of my knowledge every single time. We know that once terminals begin, we have a "Front End Drive" projectile. The nose does the driving, and more to the point, the steering. With a solid non-aqueous material, such as stacked boards or solid wood, then the nose is given no leeway, boards and solid material won't allow the nose to move or veer. So it has to drive straight. In softer tissue, and aqueous material the RN is far less stable. Until we get animals made of wood, then I think I will stick with the FN of proper design and construction, as they can drive straight in hard, or soft and aqueous materials.

Now if we go back to the T'Rex tests, you have made comments that the T'Rex tests do bear out in your favor. I have heard you state that you thought, or it was your opinion that the RN solids seemed to bust bone better, or with more trauma than the FN designs you have used. In the T'Rex tests, with the cinder blocks, this does show up. Your 550 busts the hell out of the blocks, into pieces. All the FN drill a hole in the blocks and keep on going. Problem is, once that RN busts the hell out of the blocks, then it is about done at that point and does not have the stability to continue. On lighter RN solids, many if not most times they cannot make it to the second block that has 15 inches of wet print in between. So this test does lead me to believe that you are on to something real on this matter. I would concur with that, on bone only.

On soft tissue the FN imparts FAR FAR more trauma to target than any RN can. This is very easy proven and very evident in all animals I have shot, and the main ones being elephant and buffalo of course. I have only shot two hippos body shots so I really can't say, both were with flat nose solids and both dropped dead. But there is zero doubt about how hard the FN solids hit soft tissue, meaning mostly heart/shoulder shots.

I differ with the opinion that there just is not enough proof from the field one way or the other, I think there are many instances proving several points. It is my belief that RN solids have far more potential to fail than a real and proper designed FN solid. Not all of either are created equal, some better, some worse, on both sides of the fence. I can count a small handful of fellows, right here on AR now that have had RN bullets veer off course, and several that suspect it strongly, but cannot prove it. All of which have converted to a more reliable bullet.

Here are a couple of statements from here on AR, from before my time here on AR as well, some of these folks are still here, some I don't know at all, may be here may not be, but here is a couple of instances;

quote:

I used a 500 Jeffrey as a back up rifle last season and did not find it that impressive. I just used it with 535 grain Woodleigh solids. It did not penetrate on fleeing buffalo as well as the 450 Ackley or even the 9.3x74R. Didn't get up into the chest cavity on shots from the rear. But then this is not the first shot from the side.

VBR,
Ted Gorsline



That's interesting Ted, were you using homeloads or factory loads?

I've used one for about the last 4 or 5 years and love it to bits. I've used a selection of bullets including the Stewart Lion Load, Woodleigh SP & PSP and various mono solids and they've all done pretty well.

I took an offcentre texas heart shot at a running (wounded) Buff with a Woodleigh PSP and it penetrated to the front of the chest cavity. Shot two more (mono solids) through saplings and into the Buff and both went over as if struck by lightning....

All were home loads using South African powder.


Steve "Shakari" Robinson



Dear Shakiri,

I was using Wolfgang Rommey factory loads. Its not that the 500 Jeffrey is not a good calibre. It is.

But I prefer straight line penetration above anything else because most of the buffalo I shoot are fleeing.

What struck me was me shooting at a fleeing buff with the 500 Jeffrey and a client shooting the same buffalo with the 9.3x74R and 300 grain Barnes solids.

It was about 100 yards going straight away fast. I hit the left ham and he hit the right and both hits were at about the same place.

My solid did not reach the chest cavity. It swerved and went up into the back. His solid went through to the front of the chest and killed the buff.

Soft nosed bullet are really only designed to make a big hole in the lungs. That is where they offer an advantage. But for any odd angle shot a solid is better.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline



Ted,

Interesting...... I note it was a Woodleigh solid which is FMJ.....do you know if there was any distortion? - When I use solids, (which is most of the time nowadays) I make it a rule to use mono solids.

I also don't know what load WR use.

either way, I've never had cause to be disappointed in my .500.

I've just got some FN mono solids from GS custom and am looking forward to trying them out



Dear Shakiri,

It was a Woodleigh 535 grain solid and it did not distort. The boys cut it out and I looked at it. It may have veered upwards into the back and got stopped by the rubbery skin.

Joe O'Bannon, who hunts for Miombo, has a constant problem with Woodleigh solids veering off course in his 470s. I think it must be the shape of the nose. But on the whole I like them.



500grains
one of us

Posted May 02, 2006 10:33 AM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by shakari:

I've just got some FN mono solids from GS custom and am looking forward to trying them out........



You will find that was the best decision you have ever made concerning your .500 Jeffery.

Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002

This all occurred long before I even heard of AR. And I had nothing to do with this! But it did occur along about the time I started to learn about solids and started getting very serious about testing them further as I had RN failures in the field that same year these comments were made, not woodleighs, but homemade bastard file ones with the same nose profile as the woodleighs! HEH HEH.......

quote:

Joe O'Bannon, who hunts for Miombo, has a constant problem with Woodleigh solids veering off course in his 470s. I think it must be the shape of the nose.

Now I don't know this chap, never heard of him, nor the author, however if you read the content of this, I think it means more than a couple. "constant problem with Woodleigh solids veering off course" I did not say that, this Ted fellow said this, because he got it from old Joe O'Bannon! Constant sure seems like more than once or twice to me. I would have to concur with the .474s however, that nose profile is HORRIBLE--and it's different than many other of the Woodleigh solids!

Yep ole Buddy, I reckon we will converse on this for some years to come, at least I hope so! I reckon we need to get together sometime and share about a gallon of Premium Sake, and discuss it one more time over that! How about it?

Enjoy!
Michael

465H&H

From page 283 of Pierre van der Walt's African Dangerous Game Cartridges, "to my mind the day of the round nose solid has come and gone." He then goes on to say, "The new generation of large meplat solids such as the GS Custom and the North Fork have arrived. I don't use anything else any more."

Further, I know of at least one more PH/Author who is busy revising his current book to reflect the same decision.

Oh I think with 465HH permission we can leave that discussion for now, as I am sure he and I will take it up again in the future, and I am looking forward to that gallon of Sake he and I will share. Now, I am all for sharing and I think a rather generous chap, and I am more than willing for 465HH to have at least 8 oz of Sake out of my gallon! I think that's fair enough!

Leaving that subject for the time being, I want to share some news my buddy in Utah sent to me the last couple of days! Jay, which shot some buff this year with his 458 Winchester and I posted the photos some time back here. Well, I sent Jay a box of 458 caliber 420 BBW#13 NonCons, and a box of 450 BBW#13 Solids for him to try in his 458 Win M70, 22 inch barrel. I am taking the liberty, somewhat, to post some of his comments about testing them at the range this past weekend;

quote:

Michael,
Well today was the day. The range was mine alone. The range is up a canyon East of Salt Lake at about 6,000 feet elevation. Temperature was in the 20's but it was sunny and there was virtually no wind.

My Winchester Model 70 Super Grade has a 22 inch barrel and I was running a Leupold VX-III set on 3 power. The metal table used for bench shooting is 110 yards from the target backers. Normally a person might not sight a .458 in at that distance but it is the only "bench" on the range.

I loaded up 5 of the NonCon BBW 13 .458 caliber 420 grainers with the same load I use for the Barnes 450 TSX which is ** grains of AA-2230 and a Federal GM215M large rifle magnum primer.

Well Sir, the first two 420 grain hollow point bullets were over lapping at the edges for a 2 shot group measuring 5/8 inch. They both hit the bottom of the white inner circle. I raised the setting on the scope two clicks and tapped the turrets with the wooden handle of a screw driver to make sure the settings dropped into place. Next I fired three more of the BBW 13 HP's. Man oh man! Three shots touching in an L shape neatly above the first two. The second group (three rounds) measured a little under 3/4 inch and remember, that is at 110 yards! I felt like I was shooting a big, hard kicking varmint rifle. I was impressed.

I let the barrel cool while I hung a second target and walked back to the bench. I loaded and fired three of the 450 grain BBW 13 solids (same powder charge - seated to the top most groove and roll crimped). They impacted about an inch lower than the HP's and were just marginally less accurate.. but that could have been me. You were certainly correct when you said that they should be able to cut one big ragged hole at 50 yards. I love em! I will be trying a few in .416 and .375 when the weather improves.

I like this combination the 450 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 420 BBW#13 NonCon for both my 458 B&M and the 458 Winchester. Jay's chrono is on loan right now, so I think I am going to load this same load, try it in my 22 inch 458 Winchester and get some data on it! These days my 458 Win and 458 Lott data is 5-6 years old, I was using RL 15 back in the day. I understand that AA 2230 is the 458 Winchester powder right now. I got a lb to try in the 458 B&M and the 475 B&M, neither really liked it very much, but that has zero bearing on 458 Winchester, burning characteristics are vastly different than the B&Ms.


Michael

Michael:

I have tried several different powders in my 450 Marlin but Accurate 2230 is by far and away the most consistent powder I have tried. Great load density and very accurate. However, with the Woodleigh hydros, I have to use the faster Accurate 1680. There was too much compression with Accurate 2230 but AA 1680 works perfectly with the longer bullets.

Dave,

I would think that 1680 would be good in that size case, and the longer bullets. I have a tiny bit of 1680 left as I tried some in the Super Shorts, and the 2 inch versions as well.

This thing that Jay did with his 458 Winchester, and some other guys asking about data for 458 Lott is kinda getting me a little interested in trying some load data with these two cartridges. At least a little bit to give you guys some starting points and what you can expect with the BBW#13s in both 458 Win and Lott. I think I might start work on that some, either today or tomorrow.

Michael

quote:

some other guys asking about data for 458 Lott is kinda getting me a little interested in trying some load data with these two cartridges. At least a little bit to give you guys some starting points and what you can expect with the BBW#13s in both 458 Win and Lott. I think I might start work on that some, either today or tomorrow.

keith

Michael,

If you can't afford to part with at least 1/2 gallon of Sake, I ain't coming!

Looking at one instance of bullet travel can be problematic in understanding what is going on. In the case of the 535 grain Woodleigh that veered upward on the buff, it would be helpful to know more about exactly what the bullet hit on its travels. It could well be that bullet glanced off of the femur bone or pelvic girdle. If that is the case then any bullet is prone to veer. If a FN mono did that I would not condemn the FN bullet. In the case of the PH that had "continuous problems" with 470 RN bullets veering, what I can say is that I have shot somewhere over 70 of these bullets from my 465 and 470 doubles into elephant and buff and have never been able to document any veering. I suspect that something is wrong with his rifle and his bullets are not stabilizing. If every one that uses Woodleigh solids in 470 had the same problems we wouldn't be having this discussion.

465H&H

Michael and Dave,
A few years ago, I bought two kegs of Accurate 2200 powder for use in varmint loads. The powder has just been reintroduced by Accurate Arms. Have started using it in my BLR in .450 Marlin. Loads were chrono'd, but the pressure testing part of my Oehler is kaput. Let's just say there was easy ejection and no primer pressure signs. I've lengthened my magazine spacer in the rifle to allow 2.85 OAL.
Velocities have gone above all "book" .450 Marlin and .45/70 loads.
My shoulder hurts. I think I will hold off further load development until I get another order of bullets from Michael.

I don't think ANY uniform test medium can duplicate what goes on during the flight of a bullet moving through an animals innards...or a bone box or a dead carcass...only a live animal can give definitive results and the results are good for only THAT animal...another of the same species of animal or a different species of animal will give a different result and a different bullet path.

The fact that death usually results is testiment to many things...the bullet being only ONE part of the whole.

The fact that, for the most part, that result is transferable to other game is definitely a good thing.

Just way to many variations in the density/hardness/response to liquid or muscle mass to definitively say WHAT will happen, only that in some cases the bullet went straight and in others it went crooked. The discussion over which is "best", a FN or a RN, will continue until the last man standing fires the last bullet at the last animal...with NO winner or looser.

And that isn't addressing the different properties of the bullet material itself.

No different than any good scientist defining the parameters of his experiment..."the results indicate under these parameters, gave these data and cannot be construed to occure under any other conditions". It can be repeated if you follow the specific parameters, but if you change ANY of the parameters all bets are off.

How many years of actual emperical evidence is available for the various bullets/calibers in question in the arguements. NOTHING in this world is 100%...sometimes the bullets work perfectly and sometimes not. You pick your poison and usually it works, but sometimes not, that's why you have extra rounds available. I the bullets and shooters worked 100% all the time then we would only need one shot and no backup...we all know that isn't the case.

It's still great that some continue to work the problems, but controversy, different opinions and questions will always be with us...GALLONS AND TONS of good whiskey and beef/pig and other game, have been consumed over all the minutia in this sport, otherwise things would be very dull and uninteresting an NO progress would be made in this sport.

I will decide which caliber/weight and what nose shape bullet I will use, collecting all the empirical and written data that is available, and it is MY job to put the bullet where it will most likely bring a quick death to the animal...if that doesn't happen, it is MY responsibility and duty to accept the results and to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Luck

FOOBAR,

I agree 110% with your accounatbility statement.

I will decide which caliber/weight and what nose shape bullet I will use, collecting all the empirical and written data that is available, and it is MY job to put the bullet where it will most likely bring a quick death to the animal...if that doesn't happen, it is MY responsibility and duty to accept the results and to make sure it doesn't happen again.

In carrying out this accountability, do you have a set of criteria and a process by which you evaluate "all the empirical and written data that is available (to you)?"

Please share those criteria and the evaluation process?

FooBar!

Excellent just excellent! So much of what you say is true to the bone of the matter! Not much more can be said on that!

I think the beers, sake and Grey Goose will go real well over our discussions in person with many of you, and I look forward to every bit of it!

Max

Bullets should be on the way tomorrow, so you have probably through the weekend to take a break on the shoulder! HEH HEH...........

Yes Keith, I see the clapping, between this that the other I did manage to write up some loads in 458 Win and 458 Lott with some various powders to get started with. I never actually got anything loaded, I think in the morning for that, and maybe have some data by tomorrow afternoon on some starting points anyway. I am looking at the 480 BBW#13 Solid and it's Matching 450 NonCon and the 450 BBW#13 Solid and the 420 Matching NonCon in both cartridges.

Dan made some 500 gr BBW#13 Solids and I think 470 NonCons, I have never had any of those, once the 480 was worked with and tested I saw zero need for a 500 gr bullet regardless of the larger capacity cartridges. The 480 is an incredible bullet, even runs great in the little 458 B&M and 18 inch barrels at 2165 fps, can't ask for anything better than that!

Crap 465HH, it's going to take a full 1/2 Gallon of Sake? JHC--I reckon I will buy another gallon just in case we run dry!


I am not sure if it was this thread or double thread or somewhere else, but Sam and I got into it over the broken extractor the other day. He said I needed the double so I would have an extra gun, ha ha ha, In which my reply was that a double would not make it a week here in the Torture Chamber. LOL.......The other day when he came in I showed him two more extractors I had broken the day before! Now that is 3 in a week, and I have never broken one in many 1000s on top of 1000s of rounds in my life! I tell you, things get tested here, if they survive the Torture Chamber they have to be damned good!

Michael

Now if you wouldn't load that stuff so hot that you have to use a big hammer or 2X4 to open the bolt maybe they wouldn't break!

Michael,

Please don't ask to borrow one of my doubles.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Now if you wouldn't load that stuff so hot that you have to use a big hammer or 2X4 to open the bolt maybe they wouldn't break!

I just started with a 2X4, did not take me long to bang on it with a 4X4! Got it open!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael,

Please don't ask to borrow one of my doubles.

465H&H

After that 1/2 gallon of Sake you won't mind! No worries, Sam will come down, take the vise grips, bastard file, dremel tool, and that big hammer of mine and hide them before your visit!


M

Let's see, scopes break, extractors, stocks, actions, loading presses, scales, priming tools, electric case trimmers, parts fall off of rifles, broke some ring sets, had an Aimpoint fly over my head once and land 20 ft behind me, it was on one of those 470 Capsticks. Scopes, all the time, have 3 on my desk now that has to be sent back. Yes, this is a "torture Chamber" no kidding.

All the more reason for no doubles here, I don't think they would hold up long. The last two extractors was actually my fault, well, that 4x4 really did it you know! Along with some really too soft brass which in the end is the ultimate culprit here! Oh well, 4 new extractors on the way from Brownells! Just a thing!

Michael

Michael,

Oh where, oh where has my 9.3 gone
Oh where, oh where can it be
With its barrel cut short and its bullets cut long
Oh where, oh where can it be?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't you guys carry spare parts with you on these big hunts????

Cheers, John

Why? don't you carry a big hammer for just that sort of event..always better to be safe than sorry! but hey I have used a fork in a tree to break open a double..you have to use good old American in gin new itty!

On the serious side Gary Painter of Twin Falls shot an elk and the HP monolithic of American manufacturer made and entrance hole on one side and an exit hole next to it on the same side and come back and burried itself in a tree next to his head! He and his partner thought someone was shooting at them as the bullet thumped the tree and chips flew, and they stayed hunkered down for quite awhile, and yelled at the shooter, before they discovered what had happened when they found the elk..I saw the elk and I assure you there was an entrance hole and an exit hole and that cannot be staged, and I saw the bullet and it was in a horse shoe shape and flatened a bit in the front of the horse shoe with wood particles in the bullet...I believe Garys story 110 %.....I also understand that at 3000 FPS anything can happen to a bullet, it was a rare and freak accident no doublt about that.

I also understand that there is a big difference in bullet behavior in a big bull and in a cow or calf elephant or any other animal and then you have tusks to deal with and big tusks probably make a lot of difference, so anything can happen to any bullet under the right set of circumstances and to say otherwise in absurb.

As to double rifles, I see no reason to abuse them on a hunt, you only shoot them once or twice, 4 times at most..I have not seen one fail in the field and I agree they are not as durable as a bolt gun but they did have some strong points early on when hunting alone for elephant, but books have been written on the subject..The old timers used to send them back to the factory every year or two. Also in a charge situation they are hard to beat..

I have used doubles many times and I love them, but I also like a good bolt gun with 4 down and one up the tube. I never compare them to each other as they both have a place in my cabinet. I do suspect the bolt gun is much tougher and can take considerably more abuse, after all it was Mausers design for a battle rifle.

I had one experience with the old Barnes X bullet that finally put me off them.
That was not in a big bore. It was in a tiny 6.5-06.
I used 120 grain bullets and to often I got results which I was not satisfied with.
Maybe it was because of the speed they acted like they did.

The last straw was when I shot a Roe deer buck(about 15-16 kilo skinned and gutted) slightly quartering away from me at about 80 meters and I put the bullet just behind the shoulder for a heart shot.
The buck ran off into the thick bush and since I could not see any blood at all, I got my dog to track it.
After about 70 meters into the bush, I found him lying with his offside at the shot up and I saw a exit hole just in front of the hip
And the bullet had then cut the hairs backwards on the hip too.
I just could not understand what had happened at all as I was totally sure the buck was quartering away and the exit made it look like I had hit him hard quartering too and in front of the shoulder.

I turned him around and found the entrance hole at the exact spot I was aiming.
When I opened him up, I found that the bullet had hit a rib, lost one petal that continued to hit the heart, the rest of the bullet had turned close to 90 degrees and continued through one lung, liver and stomach before it exited out just in front of the hip.

I know it was a freak happening, but I had no confidence in the bullet anymore.
As soon as I came home from that hunting weekend, I ordered some Swift A-frame bullets and have used that and never looked back.

IBT

Well, let's see 9.3 B&M. OK, the one I have here is going to Africa, it is going to be Andrews plains game rifle. I intend to have him loaded down with 9.3 Raptors as the main #1 bullet to do everything with, it should serve great in that capacity. He will be loaning it out to clients that come with no rifle as well.

The Ultimate Gunkote rifle went to my buddy in Ohio, and he won't send it back?

Brian is finishing up a new stainless rifle, and it is going to Wes for a super duper turkish blank he has.

I am looking for new 9.3 Raptors any day, maybe next week. I changed the weight from 220 down to 210. Raptors are funny critters! Also Sam and I tested the new shortened considerably 55 Raptor in .223, and it's a no go too. FYI-- The 40 Raptor is set, it's good to go. A heavy Rapter in 223 might not work, so it might be a "Modified" Raptor, more along the lines of a BBW#13 NonCon, and 50 grs. We may find this in other calibers as well, these small bores. The heavy Modified Raptor/BBW#13 NonCon will have a band design to be used with the tip, and fit in the magazines. We are still working with these, it's a trail and error process, research and development. Terminals of course are not a real concern, they all do incredible in that area, stability and accuracy, that is what we are now working for. Of course the "Larger Calibers" in medium anyway, they don't seem to be quite as picky as the smaller rat calibers! Normal operating procedure I think with rat calibers!

Big Bore Raptors, coming soon! I hope!

Phats, Yes, I carry entire spare bolts, if I am using rifles that have different bolts. Yes, one is really not supposed to do that, there is a possibility of a head space problem, and maybe something else, a proper "Gun Doctor" would need to address that. Fact of the matter, in the old days I would carry a Win M70 358 STA and say a 458 Lott! Bolts would interchange from one gun to the other. I have actually traded bolts and shot the rifles! They worked? So long as they worked, I figure if I had a problem in Zim and they worked, the hell with it, I could finish my hunt anyway!

Today, with the B&Ms, the 50, 475, 458, 416, 375, and 9.3 are all the same rifle and bolt. Carry a big bore, and one of the mediums, then in a pinch you can solve the problem. I think that from now on however, after my little extractor episodes the last few days, I might just stick a couple of extra extractors in my tool bag, just in case. I carry a tool bag full of small tools for the Winchesters,rings, bases, and scopes,extra screws, and things like that. At least one if not two extra scopes as well, already sighted in for the rifles I have with.

It would be nearly impossible to be prepared for everything that could happen, but if you take the basics that is about the best you can do.

Ray and Norwegian

Yes, I swear some of the wildest things can happen when deep in the bush, something you might never be able to duplicate in the lab or home on the range. I have seen some wild such things as well. I put an elephant down a few years ago, after my buddy had give it several pokes with his 458 Winchester, and some 450 Barnes Banded I loaded for him. Well he was wearing the head off the elephant, but could not get one in the brain. He shot at least twice while it was standing in the head, and once after it was down. I did the spine shot from the rear to get it down for him. Then he shot it several more times from that point. When the skinners were skinning they found one of the bullets and it had a perfect hole in the middle of it, not quite cutting it in two. One of his other bullets had actually hit that bullet and burned straight through it like butter! What are the chances of that happening?

I am not much of a "Pointy" copper bullet fan. That hole can close up and not expand, and we know pointy bullets, pointy solids, are the most unstable bullet ever designed once it goes terminal. It could turn in all directions. Being copper, it hits something hard while it's turning, it will bend, and god knows what it could do from that point! For sure it could "boomerang" back at you!

Ray, I never really meant to compare strength of a double to the bolt, or anything else for that matter. I am a bolt guy, and love the doubles, but don't own one, likely never will. Sam has enough doubles that I can get my jollies on them without having to own one. Good enough for me. I think I am a little to hard on some things here, and probably a double could not take the abuse I hand out. Not to mention I am too old now to learn to run a double proper, and to much dedicated to operating the bolt. Elephants would eat me before I could learn to reload the double, or I would break the double in half getting it open! I reckon I will just stay with a Winchester M70 and be done with it.

Getting some load data done with the BBW#13s and 458 Winchester and 458 Lott as well. I am very pleased with some of the results so far. I am working with TAC, X-Terminator, IMR 8208, AA 2230, and RL 15. Right now I am working with the 480 BBW#13 Solid, it's matching 450 NonCon, and the 450 BBW#13 Solid and it's matching 420 NonCon. I will finish this preliminary work by Saturday pretty easy, and anyone that might want it can email me and I will send it to you via pdf document. I might also post it on the B&M website so you can just download it? That might be easier I think for everyone. That's what I will do, post it on the Website for you.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Big Bore Raptors, coming soon! I hope!
Michael

Michael458,

Do you mean "Big Bore" or "BIG BORE" calibers?

Michael.

Maybe I missed it but how did the testing go for the .284 raptors or noncons. I know its a " rat caliber" but a 110 noncon on some winter coyote would be a great test medium.

Matt

The 7mm will be in 115 and 130
Need a fast twist for the 130

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
Michael.

Maybe I missed it but how did the testing go for the .284 raptors or noncons. I know its a " rat caliber" but a 110 noncon on some winter coyote would be a great test medium.

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
Michael.

Maybe I missed it but how did the testing go for the .284 raptors or noncons. I know its a " rat caliber" but a 110 noncon on some winter coyote would be a great test medium.

Matt

Matt, Sam and I never even got to the terminals on the first .284 Raptors. The 140 was crazy unstable, and even the 115 was not so good in Sams rifles. Since I am not much of a .284 fan and don't own anything like that I don't recall the twist rates. I know we tried the 115 in a 7mm/08 and the other in something else??? That's about all I remember on that. Sam can answer more.

On the research side, when the Raptors are right, then they fall right in place, shoot in everything you try them in. But when they are not, then it's tweaking time. All will have to be very light for caliber, and you guys are going have to understand, that's ok, while light for caliber, they are "Enormous" in performance, far better than most heavier in caliber, if not all! Weight for .284, I don't know, I think 115 is too heavy! If there is a 120-130, it will have to be modified on the base to a shorter, broader meplat to work right on the NonCon end. I think this might be a direction for the heavier NonCon or Raptor in caliber. Still a Raptor, but different than the light version. Still working on all of them!!!!! Is not quite as easy as the "Mighty BBW#13s DG Solids/NonCons".

Yep Doc--- Big Bore

I wonder what I can break this weekend?

Hey guys, watch the video below. It's pretty cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...aXg&feature=youtu.be

That is a cool video Dave. Amazing how some of the impacts appear to be liquid.

I pretty much finished up some 458 Winchester and 458 Lott load data for the BBW#13s yesterday. Have all the data recorded now. I will be looking for a place to post it on the B&M Site for those that are interested. Or, PM me and I will send it to you via email as pdf. Either way.

It's been a long time since doing load data on the two cartridges. Back in the day, I used RL 15 for both. RL 15 in the 458 Winchester and 450 gr bullets was SEVERELY compressed, so much to the point that if I was not extremely careful, it would actually bulge the case. This load worked very good, never caused pressures or even when shooting in severe heat in Africa never was an issue. However, today I would not use that, I would use some of the loads I just worked with.

It appears I am down to only two 458 Winchester Rifles! Both M70s. It also appears that both must have an extremely slow twist rates as the 480 BBW#13 Solid and 450 BBW#13 NonCon are not quite stable, even at 25 yds. So the data on the 458 Winchester is all for the 450 BBW#13 Solid and it's Matching 420 NonCon. It's all you need and more anyway.

My Winchester M70 I used in 458 Lott for the data was extremely good with all of the bullets I have in 458. I have data on the 480 BBW#13 Solid, matching 450 NonCon, and the 450 BBW#13 Solid and matching 420 NonCon. Any of these can be used in those guns.

These are just loads, they are NOT minimum, and I am sure can be tweaked up depending on your components, your rifle. They were not pressure tested, as I don't have the PT systems online right now. They were all safe in my rifles, easy extract, no outward signs of any sort of pressures. They are NOT STARTING LOADS however.

I really like the powders for these loads, in 458 Winchester I used TAC, X-Terminator, AA 2230, and IMR 8208. All giving excellent results.

In the 458 Lott I used TAC, IMR 8208 and still RL 15 did very good as well. RL 15 is still a viable choice in 458 Lott.

Soon as I find a place on the B&M Site for this I will post a link for it.

Light day today! Have a couple of rifles to sight in with the new Nikons, have a NECG rear iron work it's way loose, gotta tighten and loctight it in. Piddle around on the range, maybe even find some fun shooting to do!

OH, and Keith, I did get your messages, it's been nuts here of course as always. Yes, I will be happy to bring back some test bullets when I see you in Dallas, no issues at all, or you can mail them to me now if you want????? Either way???

Please forgive me sometimes if I don't get right back to you on the phone messages! It's crazy here sometimes and sometimes late when I get the message also. Then before long, it's another hectic day! I only need or require another 10-12 hours in a day, and I think I could keep up!

HEH....

Michael

OK I have the new 458 Winchester and 458 Lott data with BBW#13s posted on the B&M site under "News & Events" December 2011, pdf document. If you want to go fetch it, here is the link to that page;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html


Also, if you get this, give me some feed back on what you think?

Michael