quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tan,
I'd swear that within the past year that I saw an advertisement for a set of CZ rings with the rear ring offset to accomodate shorter mounting length scopes. Unfortunately I can't recollect right now who made the rings!
Have you contacted CZ's custom shop to see if they know where you can obtain an offset ring?
Also you might want to post an inquiry in the Gunsmithing Forum; perhaps you can be pointed in the right direction.

Thanks, I just sent CZ an email.
also, posted a gunsmithing thread.

Meanwhile, we await these .500 BC exploding DG bullets that will be coming our way. You've got to be excited, too.

With the BC of .5 the 375 Raptor should sheer at 600 yards with the velocity of 1,800 FPS at 600 yards starting out at 2,900 FPS.
With a 378 WBY we are talking about reaching out to 1,000 yards if wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Tan,
I'd swear that within the past year that I saw an advertisement for a set of CZ rings with the rear ring offset to accomodate shorter mounting length scopes. Unfortunately I can't recollect right now who made the rings!
Have you contacted CZ's custom shop to see if they know where you can obtain an offset ring?
Also you might want to post an inquiry in the Gunsmithing Forum; perhaps you can be pointed in the right direction.

Here is the response from CZ-usa:

quote:

I do not believe any one makes a ring that is off set. The only thing we have that would work is a weaver rail adapter the attaches to the top of the 550 but it would increase your scope mounting height.

I got a similar reply from Talley,

and nothing useful from the gunsmithing forum.


there is no joy in mudville.

Hum... would appear that an opportunity exists for a custom rear ring for the CZ if this scope/action combination catches on!

I am back from Zimbabwe - finally. Shot a very big lion the very first evening. I shot a giraffe in the morning so we were busy setting some baits that afternoon. That same evening we spotted the pride, sneaked in and took out the old male at around 70 yards in last daylight.. Easy... After more than 30 days of lionhunting in the past that was a surprising experience... Spent a few days shooting a zebra - all that was left on quota.. Then I changed my flights and went to RSA to spend some days marlinfishing with my good friend at Sodwana Bay, unfortunately no marlin but lots of tuna, dorado etc
I shot all game with my 375 Ruger using a 300 grs Nosler Partition at 2670 fps - a single shot for each animal - the NP is an old favorite of mine for a reason... AND I USED MY RIGHT EYE - so its improving...
I am not good at posting photos here - maybe you Michael will help me if I email a photo to you??
Lion was 570 Ibs and had a 26,2" scull.

All the best to you all


Ulrik

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Just opened the mail, Dave Bush, I received the "Book" you copied today. THANK YOU! Very Very nice, we ain't talking rollem off xerox here, we are talking scanned, printed HIGH QUALITY, looks like the book copy! Thank you very much. Soon as I get to it, I will comment and we will see what Pierre has learned! HEH.........
Thanks Dave, mighty nice of ya!
Michael

Michael:

Glad you got it. Most of the stuff in there is probably old hat to you but it sure had a lot of educational value to me. Let me know what you think.

Just got back from spending half a day with Michael and Sam and I';ll tell you, you ain't seen nothing like it before ;-). Seriously, Michael and Sam are some real good guys and I had a blast (literally) getting to know them and the B & M cartridges in person. We did some testing but I'll let Michael post the results; they were very interesting!!!

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
I am back from Zimbabwe - finally. Shot a very big lion the very first evening. I shot a giraffe in the morning so we were busy setting some baits that afternoon. That same evening we spotted the pride, sneaked in and took out the old male at around 70 yards in last daylight.. Easy... After more than 30 days of lionhunting in the past that was a surprising experience... Spent a few days shooting a zebra - all that was left on quota.. Then I changed my flights and went to RSA to spend some days marlinfishing with my good friend at Sodwana Bay, unfortunately no marlin but lots of tuna, dorado etc
I shot all game with my 375 Ruger using a 300 grs Nosler Partition at 2670 fps - a single shot for each animal - the NP is an old favorite of mine for a reason... AND I USED MY RIGHT EYE - so its improving...
I am not good at posting photos here - maybe you Michael will help me if I email a photo to you??
Lion was 570 Ibs and had a 26,2" scull.

All the best to you all


Ulrik

Ulrik

WOW-- Incredible, congrats. There is no finer DG animal than that of the mighty lion! Lions are scary! Ain't saying I am afraid of them, at least not too much, but they are a little scary, especially at night! HEH.........

Very glad that eye of yours did not cause you to see double or something too. Very good show.. Yes, email any pics to me and I will be happy to get them up for you, and of course for all of us as well!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for tuning us in, and can't wait to see the photos.

Michael

Dave

I hope to sit down this weekend, maybe get a chance to really read the stuff. I cruised thru, skimmed a bit, and it looks like very very good info, that has been needed to be put in a book for a long time now. This really is some good stuff, and while many of us know this stuff, other writers have not gone to the trouble or the effort to put it where it needs to be. Or possible other writers of such books have so little damned knowledge about such things they could not put it in a book! Good show so far from the skim! Will go more in depth soon as I can.
Thanks again!

Baxter

Yes, we very much enjoyed the visit and was very pleased you could bring your Dad. I think we had a jolly good time!

quote:

I';ll tell you, you ain't seen nothing like it before ;-)

Guys, this is an inside thing that I was telling Sam early this morning, and later relayed this to Baxter and Charlie. Since we have been taking the BBW#13 NonCons to the field, I had PH's, Outfitters, Skinners, trackers, every single individual that has used the #13 NonCons in the field on animals, and everyone surrounding them, there has been a standard line that has been relayed to me and it's always the same line, same words or very close;

I ain't never seen anything like this! Or--I ain't never in my life seen anything like this! To a man, this is the comment on the BBW#13 NonCon performance, whether its the 223 or the big bores. Same story.

Now today, I had to say this myself to Sam, Baxter, and Charlie, some of the wild things we did today, I would have bet against, and I promise you that even "I have never seen anything like we did today" Hell, I am not sure if I can even report it proper? I took photos of some of this, and I will process and try to get started on the reports tomorrow. I promise, I think it's going to be worth looking at, if I can get it all put together, it goes beyond our boring same old same terminals!

Michael

Glad you guys are having fun.
What bullets did you test?

Michael,Baxter and Charlie,

Had a great time as usual at Michael's. Great meeting Baxter and Charlie. Small world I found out the Charlie's family lived very close to where I grew up. Knew a lot of the same people.

OK I'll say it again "I've never seen anything like this in my life" I have been very impressed with non con and Raptor performance but today my eyes were opened WIDE again. Always learn something new when Michael and I get together. I thought we had done most of what we could come up with. Wrong! Michael had and idea and I had some suggestions to improve his idea but we went ahead and tried it. WOW!!
It might take Michael a while to put it all together but I'll say it will be worth the wait.
Whew I'm tired, it was a long fun learning experience!

Sam

Sam you and Michael are messing with our minds. Talking about great bullet performance with NO details.

Keith

You guys are torturing the peanut gallery.
Waiting for someone to spill the beans.

I think I'll go take my wife for a hamburger and beer.

Cheers to Ulrik for a job well done, with a .375.

Got me thinking about .375/.338LM again, what with the .375/230-grain Raptors on the way ... Mach 3?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
I am back from Zimbabwe - finally. Shot a very big lion the very first evening. I shot a giraffe in the morning so we were busy setting some baits that afternoon. That same evening we spotted the pride, sneaked in and took out the old male at around 70 yards in last daylight.. Easy... After more than 30 days of lionhunting in the past that was a surprising experience... Spent a few days shooting a zebra - all that was left on quota.. Then I changed my flights and went to RSA to spend some days marlinfishing with my good friend at Sodwana Bay, unfortunately no marlin but lots of tuna, dorado etc
I shot all game with my 375 Ruger using a 300 grs Nosler Partition at 2670 fps - a single shot for each animal - the NP is an old favorite of mine for a reason... AND I USED MY RIGHT EYE - so its improving...
I am not good at posting photos here - maybe you Michael will help me if I email a photo to you??
Lion was 570 Ibs and had a 26,2" scull.

All the best to you all


Ulrik

Ulrik,

Congrats on the lion. Who was the PH and where did you hunt?

465H&H

Well once again i bring a topic which is not a big bore topic but has everthing to do with terminal bullet performance. This is a great read which involves the bullets which our men and women are carrying over seas and very close to me cause my brother-in-law worked along side the project. Enjoy the read guys

http://www.army.mil/article/69...DOD_s_highest_award/

Matt

I hunted Woodlands - neighboring Matetsi 1. PH was Thulani Dube..

Will email photos to Michael, a nice lion indeed..

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
I hunted Woodlands - neighboring Matetsi 1. PH was Thulani Dube..

Will email photos to Michael, a nice lion indeed..

NICE????? I think this goes a bit beyond "Nice"!!!!!! More like







Ulriks Kitten!









Hey, that last photo looks like he just left the "Beauty Parlor"

Fantastic lion! You have much to be proud of! Congratulations.

OK, I have to say it, I would not be me if I didn't! I personally would not have gone to the bush with a rat shooting 375 anything! This big boy deserved better than that Ulrik, more along the lines of 416 as a minimum, and I would have been much happier facing him with a 50! That ain't no baby kitty you have there! I think you might just be a lucky chap to have survived the encounter with that rat shooter! Brave Chap I reckon! Stunt hunt maybe, shooting a beast like that with a rat bullet! LOL................ Crap, I would not have gone into the bush with that thing with anything less than a 458 of some sort! And would much rather have had one of my 500 MDMs with one of those 460 BBW#13 NonCons at 2600 fps, turn that bugger inside out! You know lions eat little things like me and you? Ain't nothing to that damned lion to decide to bite one of us, and here you are with a rat gun!!! I am going have to have a serious talk with you about these things! I am beginning to worry about you!



Michael

Very nice lion buffalo (Ulrik)!

Congrats

Looking forward to your report michael458

- I see nothing has changed Michael......

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
- I see nothing has changed Michael......

Absolutely, what the hell would you expect?

HEH....
M

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...-terribly-wrong.html

Michael, stop playing around with toys .This cannon went through a house at about 2 miles and that's without using CEB # 13 !!

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Michael, stop playing around with toys .This cannon went through a house at about 2 miles and that's without using CEB # 13 !!

No doubt, this kinda makes what we do, well, just boring I'd say! One thing about this, mass equals serious penetration, regardless of "Nose Profile". Penetration--Penetration--Penetration! HEH.....

I think I want that cannon for that BIG CAT Ulrik shot with a rat gun!

Michael

Well let's get started with a few terminals. Have most reports ready for you.

Sam and I eliminated a good portion of what we had planned in short order. We did not like the stability of the .277s, or 7mm Raptors, so we dropped them from the terminal schedule. We went straight to the 375 230 Raptors.

Sam loaded for his 375 B&M, but since he had no data the loads were very mild in comparison to what they could have been, therefore terminals I think a little short on overall penetration than what they could have been as well. All #13s, including Raptors, like velocity. This Raptor running 2800 or 2900 fps would be an entirely different animal than the sedate velocities we were running with it yesterday.

First up 230 Raptor NonCon--No Tip



I was in the floor digging out blades, Sam dug out the bullets and checked overall penetration. When he said 15 inches I was somewhat surprised, but two things, the front of this mix had a few dry spots i the middle, so it was slightly tougher than it really should have been, my fault. Next, impact velocity was low. My estimate is the drier middle accounted for at least 1-2 inches of penetration in this particular test.

Moving to the 230 Raptor with Tips increased the impact velocity by fair margins, along with a better medium that had no dry spots. Penetration increased substantially at that point.

On both of these it's the same old story with the blades, shear at 2 inches, blades from 4-7 inches. I did not even put it on the data that goes with the bullet, all basically the same. I did not even add, Massive Trauma--that's become all the same as well. This is getting rather boring, it's always the same story time after time. Damned things work so good it's getting monotonous!




At some point I know Sam can load some of these up to high end speeds, and we will test again. The story will be the same however, just more trauma inflicted and deeper penetration! I can tell you that now without testing!

Michael

Those last photos amswer a question. I was confused that the bullets were yellow as brass should be but the fracture surfaces were grey !
These photos show the grey to be just fuzz from the test media ! I'm a metallurgist so I look for such things.

Sam had taken some of the 110 gr 6.5 Raptors that were just not quite stable and cut the base off leaving a 90 gr BBW#13 NonCon. These shot very well, one hole at 50 so they were very stable in Sam's little 6.5 WSSM. No issues.

For some reason Sam got just a tad high on one shot, shooting 4 rounds, two on each side. The blades sheared at 2", normal, but blew the top out of the test medium. Made an excellent photo to show you a wound channel and how the blades work. Of course the photo really is not as good as seeing it with your own eyes, but it's all we have!




When digging for the blades these photos are typical and what you find from 3-6 inches or so, here you see a bulge in the test medium, this is the blades working with the bullet causing trauma to the test medium. Took a couple of photos to give you some idea.





And of course the "main event" with the 6.5 90 gr BBW#13.




To give you a comparison to other 6.5 bullets that I have tested in the same medium, a 130 Barnes TSX at 2530 fps 48 yd impact drove to 18 inches, a 140 Swift A Frame at 2537 fps 48 yd impact drove to 18 inches as well. In the 6.5 WSM I have I have run 120 Barnes TSX at 3299 fps, 48 yds, 16 inches. My boys used this load in Africa in 2008 shooting impala, several warthogs, hartebeast, and even a wildebeast and it hammered everything. Now you see a 90 gr BBW#13 penetrating 22-25 inches in the same medium, why would one need a heavier bullet, in a BBW#13????? 90 is plenty! HEH.... Oh, I forgot, that's why we call them NonCons eh?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Those last photos amswer a question. I was confused that the bullets were yellow as brass should be but the fracture surfaces were grey !
These photos show the grey to be just fuzz from the test media ! I'm a metallurgist so I look for such things.

Mete

Correct, the gray is mostly the paper residue that is hateful to remove without taking them to the bath! Most of the time, I am just to damned sorry and lazy to clean them off as much as I probably should!

M

Thanks for the show and tell Michael.
Raptors love velocity!
It's proving with consistancy the Raptors only need about a .2 SD
At 90 grains the left over 6.5 mm SD is .184
The 130 grain 308 is a .196 SD
If the smaller calibers are under .2 SD we seem to be just fine.
The 40 grain 22 caliber is ferocious and that is only .114 SD
The larger the diameter the shorter the length to diameter ratio the bullets get for the same SD so the SD can go up and still be stable as we see with the .234 SD 375 Raptor.
Since the raptors love velocity and perform excellent around .2 SD that's a match made in terminal heaven.
Shoot faster, flatter, accurate and deadlier!

I want everyone to notice those splits in the media where the blades are moving outward. This was really interesting to see. TRAUMA! No wonder animals drop so fast after being hit by a non con. No normal cup and core bullet does this! Oh and it just dawned on me! This little 90 grain bullet out penetrated the 375 230 grain Raptor we tested also.

Way back when, I was in Roswell New Mexico with Lou Probo. Lou and I were pronghorn hunting. I had never shot one, and back then I most certainly didn't own a proper Goat rifle, smallest thing I had was a Ruger Bolt gun in 308 Winchester. Yes, this was before my Winchester days, back when I was stupid! Or at least more stupid than I am now anyway! I was shooting a 150 gr Ballistic tip, figured that would be plenty for a pronghorn. I forget the velocity. Just typical 308 I am sure. My god, Lou was working me hard, had me running and all kinds of crazy things! Finally I asked him why did we bring a rifle for, looks like we are going to run him down and club him to death! Anyway, Lou had me running, I took a quick shot at one buck and was breathing so hard I missed the whole thing! Don't remember how far exactly now. We take off running some more now!

We went for awhile and caught a buck walking sorta fast, not run, not quite a trot. Rather close, 50-60 yards, I threw up quick and just as this buck got behind some of that New Mexico light brush I touched a round off. Buck disappeared, off takes Lou running, I am behind huffing and puffing, he is running so hard he does not even see the dead pronghorn laying on the ground as I round the bush. I have to scream at him to come back, there it was, stone cold dead. Something funny however, there was not a drop of blood anywhere? Getting down to look, there was no bullet entrance, there was no exit, not one drop of blood or any sign of a shot what so ever, nothing? Hell, did he have a natural death, right there at that moment? I don't think so, he was not that big or old?

It was not until we picked up his head that we could feel what happened, somehow. The entire front of the skull was just cracked, broken, horns would flop outwards like ears. But still, no bullet entrance, no bullet exit? I very distinctly remember having the cross hairs just behind the shoulder as I squeezed, or pulled the trigger. Now I can pull one now and again, but I don't know at this moment what had happened? Still no bullet hole, no exit, not even blood on the head! After some time trying to figure this out, a tiny drop of blood fell out of his left ear. Upon closer inspection the bullet had entered dead into the ear hole, and had not exited. It had exploded inside and blew the brain to mush, broke the skull all to pieces.

Now this mystery had been solved, but how in the world did the bullet enter into the ear hole? That was a pretty fair distance from where I was aiming? I retraced my steps and found exactly where I was shooting from and where the prong fell, brush was in between us. So I went and inspected that brush and sure enough there was a little 1/4 inch twig that had been hit was was hanging there. About all I can figure the bullet hit that twig, deflected, hit the pronghorn dead in the ear hole, the rest is history.

This was just the first of my encounters with sticks, trees, and twigs!

Continued:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I want everyone to notice those splits in the media where the blades are moving outward. This was really interesting to see. TRAUMA! No wonder animals drop so fast after being hit by a non con. No normal cup and core bullet does this! Oh and it just dawned on me! This little 90 grain bullet out penetrated the 375 230 grain Raptor we tested also.

Sam, those little 6.5s had a running start of over 400 fps.


Keith

quote:

OK, I have to say it, I would not be me if I didn't! I personally would not have gone to the bush with a rat shooting 375 anything!.......lucky chap to have survived the encounter with that rat shooter! Brave Chap I reckon! Stunt hunt maybe, shooting a beast like that with a rat bullet! LOL................ and here you are with a rat gun!!!

Now Michael, as i understand it, you are lusting after a 9.3 m/m. That would make it a rat gun, too. As it is smaller than the .375

Buffalo

Great Leo!!!!

Keith

Come on Michael
We know you are a good shot.
You did ricochet on that twig on purpose.
Damn that's a good story.
Sam, let's crank that 375 Raptor up to 3kFPS impact velocity and see what happens
Someone dust off a 378 WBY and see how these fly!
I wonder what the top velocity is in a 375 HH
Double Tap has the 375 235 TSX at 3,100 in a 375 HH.
Varnits to Pronghorn to bears and lions!

Trees, Sticks, and Twigs!

I don't recall another incident with a stick, twig or tree until my moose in Alaska back in 2002. I was in my 45/70 phase that year and my eye sight was still pretty good then. So I decided to tote a 1885 45/70 Uberti with some sort of peep I had installed, shooting a 350 gr Hornady Flat Nose, I think the first year they came out, at 2150 fps or so as I recall.

Day of the moose came and he was short range 35 yds or so and just sorta trotting past. I was following through and fired the first round and my guide Gary Gray screamed "You Shot Him In the Ass"!! I knew better than that, I had it right on his shoulder and was moving with him, then about the time he got that statement out of his mouth, he said "No-you hit a Tree". Well I knew for a fact if I had hit a tree then I did not hit the moose! Old moose was still just trotting along so I took off running after the moose, reloading as I went, Gary made some sort of "Moose Love" call and he pulled up short, I skidded to a stop and put the front sight on that same shoulder and fired, he turned in a circle and fell over stone cold dead! Well that was pretty good fun! Then the work started, skinning and packing, and cutting!

Then I wished that moose had not been so damned big! He fell on the side the entry wound was, so I did not see that, and was skinning up on the far side shoulder and found a bullet! I studied the bullet but was a little unhappy and could not quite figure this out! You see, like now, I had tested this bullet in the test medium before leaving and it worked perfectly at these velocities, and now I had a bullet that had lost it's jacket completely, just the lead core? I suppose these things happen eh? I continued to skin and in about two more inches of hide I found a "SECOND" Bullet? This one was perfect, just like I had tested before hand! Well, jest of the matter, I ran back and found the tree, it was about a 3 inch tree, had shot dead through the center of it and I reckon the bullet shed it's jacket on the tree, continued on to hit the moose fairly close to where I was aiming it appeared. The second pristine mushroomed 350 Hornady was my second shot, which was clear. I was so impressed I went and cut that section out of the tree showing the bullet entrance and exit and still have that stick today!








I was pretty impressed with this myself. But was a long way from being convinced that bullets were invincible to brush, trees, sticks and twigs! After all, this was just one successful episode. Well, I reckon the 150 Nosler and the pronghorn was a success too, it was a 1 shot deal after all! But maybe both were just pure lucky too?


Have ya'll figured out I am leading to something else??? I wonder?

To be Continued;

Will there be tests with the other end of the 375 Raptor?

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

OK, I have to say it, I would not be me if I didn't! I personally would not have gone to the bush with a rat shooting 375 anything!.......lucky chap to have survived the encounter with that rat shooter! Brave Chap I reckon! Stunt hunt maybe, shooting a beast like that with a rat bullet! LOL................ and here you are with a rat gun!!!

Now Michael, as i understand it, you are lusting after a 9.3 m/m. That would make it a rat gun, too. As it is smaller than the .375
Keith

Hmmmm? You had to go there? Like I said before, 9 is bigger than 3, I learned this at a very young age, $9 was a lot more than $3! 9 bullets was more than 3 bullets! 9.3 is way bigger than .375, everyone knows that! Why hell, I can't even see where they are close, you see you have to go 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8- and 9! 9 is a long way from something that starts with a 3!

That's my Story!

HEH HEH.....
M

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Will there be tests with the other end of the 375 Raptor?

Would you be quite, can't you see I am talking about "Trees Sticks and Twigs" for Christs sakes!

Something that has no gotten any attention yet.
If you look at the 6.5 left over bullet you see that the bottom of the hole seems to have acted like a new meplat of about 2/3rds the diameter. The petals sheered off in a way that left less than full diameter meplat adding to the penetration methinks.
The band placement in correlation to the base of the hollow point has added a new dimension to the game it seems.