quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Would anyone happen to have any load data for the 45-70 or 450 Marlin using the 400 grain BBW#13 solid? If so, I would greatly appreciate it if you could pass it on.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Thanks Michael. I really want to give that 400 grain BBW#13 a try.

quote:

Dear Sam:
I’m here in our camp in Rifa along the banks of the Zambezi River, reflecting on my hunts of the past season. I appreciate the cartridges you sent over loaded with the #13 solids and the Non-Con bullets. Their performance was truly remarkable.

The calibers that were used on my hunts included the .577 Nitro Express, .416 Remington Mag, and the .300 Jarrett.

I personally used my .577 to take down a charging hippo, a fleeing wounded Cape buffalo, and a backup shot on a trophy bull elephant. The bullets devastating and immediate shock and stopping power on the animals was as dramatic as I’ve witnessed in my 17 year professional hunting career. In all three cases, the animals hit the ground within seconds. The charging hippo plowed into the ground at my feet, the elephant dropped where it stood, and the fleeing Cape buffalo received a “Texas heart shot” and went down within 10-15 yards. I recovered the bullet from the buffalo under the hide of the chest. The bullet had blown through 5 feet of muscle, gut, and bone.

Most recently, my friend Doug Stein and I hunted Cape buffalo and various species of plains game. Doug was using the Non-Con bullet in his model 70 Winchester in .416 Remington mag. We ambushed a large mature buffalo after a brief stalk and Doug placed a shot behind the shoulder from approximately 35 yards. The stunning and swift shock on the buffalo’s system had him stumbling within a split second. The wounded buff tried to run with the other buffalo, however, he pulled up within 30 yards allowing Doug the time to place a 2nd shot behind the opposite shoulder. The 2nd shot literally swept the buffalo off his feet. I can tell you the geyser of blood rising from the wound was like none I have seen. Without being too graphic and over descriptive, I tell you this to properly describe the extraordinary amount of instantaneous hemorrhaging of the wound channel. Upon inspection of the buff’s vitals, I was amazed at the severity of the bullet wound including the multiple secondary wound channels from the bullet petals. No long walk required to follow up this buff!

Additionally, I was able to witness the .30 caliber Non-Con bullets used on a variety of other plains game species from Doug’s trusty .300 Jarrett. Without exception, each animal dropped in its tracks. The .30 caliber bullets included the plastic tip to help stabilize the bullets on longer shots over 200+ yards. The bullets performed with remarkable and consistent accuracy on each shot.
I plan to continue using these bullets in my rifle on all my future hunts. Thanks again for introducing me to these wonderful bullets.

Regards,

Cliff Walker
Professional Hunter
Walker/Watson African Safaris
wwalkerwatson@aol.com
Bulawayo, Zimbabwe

Cliff Walker
Walker & Watson Safaris
Cell: + 263 712 215 240
Cell: + 263 772 116 254
Office: Kerry + 263 9 240908
Office email: wwalkerwatson@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Michael:

Those cup point solids are really something. Do you think that lead core soft points are on the way out?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now without further BS let's get the show on the road!

This post will show Round Nose, 50% meplat, 55% meplat, and 60% meplat. Within each test the bullets are nearly exact, but from one jump to the next there is a slight difference in weight, and a slight difference in velocity as we move forward. These differences are not significant, and do not effect the overall behavior. Sam did a wonderful job on getting these bullet ready for this test. Thank you Sam for making this possible.

First the Round Nose to start things off.



Next the 50% Meplat.



55% Meplat



60% Meplat




Now for my part I look at "Straight Line Penetration", that is about all I am concerned with. At what point does that bullet start to behave poorly by veering off course or tumbling? The rest is really a moot point to me. "Terminal Stability" is what we are after, or what I am chasing. I want stability so that I know I can count on that in the field, as much as allowed when other variables are introduced! As stated a 1000 times, if it works and is successful in the test work, then the better probability that it will be successful in the field.

As we work our way up the meplat ladder we see a trend starting to appear, added "Terminal Stability". Even a jump from RN to 50% made a difference, even if they overlap a bit in straight line penetration, we see the two bullets start to come closer together. The RN being unstable showing a wide difference in straight line penetration, the 50% meplat starting to show closer numbers with straight line penetration. At 55% we see this come even closer, and at 60% straight line penetration takes a huge jump in penetration depth. In addition one must look at the total amount of "Off Course Veering" from 50% to 60% meplat. At 50% and 55% we see from 2" to 4" off course at the end of penetration, most of those at 4" actually left the test medium to the sides or to the bottom. With 60% meplat size we see a significant jump in straight line penetration, and in addition at the end of that total penetration we see 1" and 2" off course! I find this significant. No doubt about a trend in my mind. But I will let you judge this for yourself.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The second part of the test with the 65%, 70%, 75% and 80% meplat for caliber showed a significant gain in "Terminal Stability".

65% Meplat




70% Meplat





75% Meplat




80% Meplat





Of little doubt we achieved "Terminal Stability" with the 65% meplat for caliber. Both were found dead straight, nose forward. Straight line penetration made another increase over the 60% meplat, however we note that total penetration was near identical on average. With the 60% just not being quite as stable as the 65% meplat.

At 70% meplat for caliber "Terminal Stability" and depth of penetration was basically equal with the 65% meplat. This was the only true anomaly I encountered in the test with the 1 70% that penetrated to 44 inches. All test medium has it's faults, my is not excluded. This one bullet found the binding of a magazine that I insert in the mix, one edge of the meplat was damaged somewhat, and the other edge had a clear outline of a staple across the meplat. It is my assertion that this caused the very slightly less penetration of the 1 70% meplat bullet. It did not effect straight line penetration at all, and the bullet was found nose forward and dead straight. Just lost a couple of inches over it's brother, and I believe that to be the culprit. Here again, a larger sample size would have sorted that out, yes I know, but the trend is evident regardless.

Here is one of the questions that I thought I knew the answer, but not 100% confident, now I am confident, even with such a small sample size. At 75% we see a definite reduction in total straight line penetration. Meaning, we found the meplat size where we start to limit total penetration! Terminal Stability is 100%, no veer, nothing but dead straight penetration and both bullets found nearly side by side, nose straight forward. This is the same behavior as we saw in Agent J's bullet. In no way is this a detriment, with one exception, this is the point at which my beloved Winchesters started to balk at feeding the large meplat, catching at the bottom of the feed ramp before jumping under the extractor.

Again at 80% meplat for caliber we see yet another reduction in total penetration, which even further confirms in my mind that we can in fact limit penetration if that should be desired by using a larger meplat size. Again, 100% terminal stability, dead straight line penetration, both found nose forward.

Something that also should be pointed out, I observed (I should have actually measured) as we increased meplat size we also increased the impact trauma to target with larger wound channels and destruction of test medium. I wished I had taken the time to get actual measurements, but that is hind sight now, you will just have to trust me on this one.

Well guys there it is. Agree, disagree, whatever you choose to do, that is it in a nut shell and reported exactly as I found it, no sugar coating. I think this basically confirms prior test work done on the subject, and I know for a fact that this could be repeated over and over, basic results on behavior would be the same.

Everything done with a barrel of 1:12 twist rate, which no doubt assisted the bullets of less than 65% meplat. A slower twist rate I am sure would have showed the less than 65% meplat far less stable than they are at 1:12.

Thanks to Sam for making the bullets, thanks to 465HH for his collaboration in the effort and his upcoming statistical conclusions, and all the efforts all of you put into this and the input you give. Not one of us has all the answers, but as a group we have discovered much and continue to do so! Thanks to all who push me a little bit from time to time to make the effort, otherwise I might get lazy! HEH.



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As shooters and hunters we make many choices as we move forward. What rifle? What Cartridge? What apparel do I need for the next hunt? What Powder to use for my loads? How much velocity do I need?

However, all combined it comes down to the "BULLET" we choose that can and "sometimes" does decide whether the entire affair is either a great success, with shared smiles, back slaps, and handshakes, and most important, that Ice Cold Celebration BEER after the grand event--or a miserable, worrisome, thought provoking, failure!


Come now, really, what would you choose?






If you are a double sorta chap, what would you choose?

Michael

Michael,

I expect that your question was rhetorical and you really didn't expect an answer. But being the contrary sort of guy that you respect and love, I thought I would take a shot at it.
Here are my choices and reasons behind them.

If I was choosing a bullet for buffalo I wouldn't select either. I prefer to use a strongly constructed soft for buff in all cases. If I was hunting a trophy bull elephant or a single hippo on land esp. a Botswana bull ele, I would chose the FN solid. I would be mindful that I might have to pass up a shot where a shoot through could hit another elephant.

If I was hunting tuskless cows, tusked cows or actually any elephants in a herd situation then I would chose the RN solid. Still more than enough straight line penetration for any reasonably angled shot and a much less chance of a shoot through.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Oh my, that was good, you have to admit it!

Speaking of "OLD" things! Sam had a Original Kynoch Load, and we gave it a whirl in the 500 Nitro!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Last but not least, Sam had made a little 350 gr .500 caliber #13, and I just had to see it work.





I don't know, this is a cute little bugger! But the 405 gr #13 is the real hammer for the 50 B&M Super Short.

It did very well for a 350 .500 caliber bullet!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
 

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
MeplatFS,

Glad you like the CEBs and the SSKs both are great. You made a good choice with the copper hollow point on the hippo. Now how much penetration is too much. I want my solids to go like the enerjizer bunny ON and ON! If in like your case you have two animals beside each other then you do what you did and switch to a expanding bullet. Thats why I like doubles all I have to do is switch triggers. Some say you don't want too much penetration and like using those tumble solids. Now you can't count on them to tumble all the time and they might zip through two also. A solid is supposed the penetrate all the way in my opinion. I want it to go through three animals if they are lined up. In most cases hunting dangerous game you have time to wait for the right shot and you should to be sure you make the right shot. This banging away at herds doesn't do it for me. Hey if you are worried about your solid shooting through your animal then use a soft nose.

Sam