Smart Ass--Your guns are bigger in weight too, which means if you carry your 13 lb rifles and my 6.5 lb rifle, I will be able to outrun you! I will be "floating like a butterfly" while you are stumbling around with that beast!

You try and outrun me and you will have another heart attack!!!!!

Well, I reckon I will just walk along then! Don't want anymore of those!

Here we are, a full year later and I just come from "Upstairs", which I know better than to be up there, and of course I am only lurking. But I find it horribly discouraging! Here are some comments from "Upstairs" made in the last few days.

This is talking about how the Woodleigh Hydro has less barrel stress on double rifles.

1. It is my understanding that Geoff is recommending these new projectiles for doubles
since they stress the barrel less than conventional solids



This comment made on the difference between the new hornady DGS

2. Despite the claims of the 'flat nosed is better' school, I have not seen as good (as deep penetration)a performance from the new flat nosed bullets as from the old round nosed ones - this is especially true at the higher velocities 2300-2600fps
The old round nosed Hornady .458 bullets were the best on the market and it is a shame that they had to stop making them.


Another recent comment from someone who post regular "Upstairs" who is well respected, at least up there, some hero worship going on. This individual was being told about the BBW #13, to which the remark back was "Elephant won't know the difference". Now what kind if idiot comment is that? I can't even fathom something as stupid as that being said, and what is the point of that? I know the individual that said this, I have sit across the table from him on safari. While I did not form an opinion at the time, my very astute wife, with lots of foresight decided that the individual was a show off idiot at that time 3 yrs ago. My wife is pretty smart, it took me a lot longer to figure the same thing out.

The ups and downs I suppose!

M

Micheal458,

Am awaiting the safari results w/416 Rem. I am looking at one now and thinking about NF 370s, but not sure where the cuppoint will fit in. the 416 seems flat shooting enough for PG out to 200-250 and I dont like to shoot any further than that. I suppose/hope that there might be terminals and load data for 416 NF back in the pages of the thread. Thanks in advance and at least one hunter out here sure appreciates the work being done.

SSR

CrossL

Well, thank you! Just when one gets a little down, here comes along someone that picks you up a bit! Makes it all worthwhile!

It's Like my bud JWP says--YOU can't fix stupid, so I reckon you wasting your time trying to do so! While we here "Endeavor To Persevere" those that are not able to or can't comprehend or refuse to comprehend must be left behind to remain ignorant all their days!

Now for the real stuff!

Cross, I have tested the 370 NF FPS, the solid, but I don't think I have tested the 370 Premium Soft? Not in the "lab" right now, but I don't recall testing it. But I can tell you now, without testing it, that for anything you would want to do in 416 caliber it will be superb, and pair it up with the 370 FPS that would be a fine combo to work with. Every single North Fork Premium soft that I have tested all do the exact same thing and look exactly the same. We tested 350 and 450 gr .458s, various velocities, and I have tested the 325 in 416. All perfect performance, just exactly like they look on the website too. I know there would be zero differences in the 370 416. As you may know I have a 450 gr .500 caliber Premium Soft being done by North Fork, and a 425 .474 caliber Premium Soft also.

Now if North Fork would get with the program and make all the Cup Points--Expanding Cup Points, then I would have some suggestions for that as well, but the 370 Cup Points I tested, I think I tested these, eh? More or less limited penetration solids. But they penetrate buffalo like few others, just want them to expand a bit along with that penetration.

I used a 416 Remington a few years ago, WIn M70 of course, and I shot zebra, roan, sable, other plains game sometimes as far as 300 yds with excellent results. But like you I would rather be 200 or so. At 200-250 the 416 caliber is very very versatile. And flat shooting!

I don't think I have any 370 Premium softs--but if I do I have some mix on the range I will test them for you. But I don't think I have any.

Thanks again, what you said does make it worthwhile.

Michael

CrossL

I did a little checking on my photobucket, and much to my surprise guess what I found?????? Sure enough, 370 North Fork Premium Bonded Core test, North Fork Cup Point test and the 370 North Fork FPS!









For the life of me I don't remember doing the Bonded Core bullets??? But there they are.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
For the life of me I don't remember doing the Bonded Core bullets??? But there they are.

A philosophical question? When Grasshopper has begun forgetting what he has learnt ... has he become ... the Master?

Pretty bad when you spray the screen with coffee whilst typing!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well, I reckon I will just walk along then! Don't want anymore of those!

Here we are, a full year later and I just come from "Upstairs", which I know better than to be up there, and of course I am only lurking. But I find it horribly discouraging! Here are some comments from "Upstairs" made in the last few days.

This is talking about how the Woodleigh Hydro has less barrel stress on double rifles.

1. It is my understanding that Geoff is recommending these new projectiles for doubles
since they stress the barrel less than conventional solids



This comment made on the difference between the new hornady DGS

2. Despite the claims of the 'flat nosed is better' school, I have not seen as good (as deep penetration)a performance from the new flat nosed bullets as from the old round nosed ones - this is especially true at the higher velocities 2300-2600fps
The old round nosed Hornady .458 bullets were the best on the market and it is a shame that they had to stop making them.


Another recent comment from someone who post regular "Upstairs" who is well respected, at least up there, some hero worship going on. This individual was being told about the BBW #13, to which the remark back was "Elephant won't know the difference". Now what kind if idiot comment is that? I can't even fathom something as stupid as that being said, and what is the point of that? I know the individual that said this, I have sit across the table from him on safari. While I did not form an opinion at the time, my very astute wife, with lots of foresight decided that the individual was a show off idiot at that time 3 yrs ago. My wife is pretty smart, it took me a lot longer to figure the same thing out.

The ups and downs I suppose!

M

I was bored tonight, nothing to do in a motel room, so decided to go upstairs to see what you were talking about. Absolutely amazing! I think this was the best of all the illogical statements in that thread (the solid in this statement relates to the NF FPS):

quote:

Under the ideal case that may be true but from what I hear of anecdotal evidence the powder charge is typically reduced by a grain or two for the solid compared to the soft to get identical velocities for the two different bullets.

If this is the case, then it shows that the pressure is higher at the same powder charge for the solid than for the soft.

Makes one wonder from where do they pull this sh*t!!!

Con, Jim, Sam and all of you must keep me on the straight and narrow path! I get diverted from time to time, and I most certainly forget things! I promise you, I could not even remember having those 370 Premium North Forks????? Much less testing them??? But I damn sure did! But REGARDLESS of not remembering testing them, or even having them--I knew damn well what they would do didn't I? HEH HEH


Pressures are a funny thing, and change depending on so many tiny factors. One has to be very careful in making broad statements about that.

Back on page 103 you see where I seated the 500 gr CEB BBW13 long and deep! Same powder and charge, same primer always Fed 215, same cases same rifle same everything, just one seated out, the other seated deep. There was only about a 1000 PSI difference between the two. A 1000 PSI is NOTHING. You can have as much as 4000-5000 PSI variance in in extreme spread on many loads. Even though everything else is perfect. There could be a couple of 1000 PSI difference in doing it today and then doing it tomorrow. That's the nature of this. And I understand that this is with the big very expensive pressure testing systems as well, from the big dog ammo manufacturers. Not just my little toys! Like I said on page 103--I like the bullet seated deeper in this particular instance, so 1000 PSI is nothing to even be concerned about, and I tell you right now that this bullet is crunching and munching going in! But so what!

I get a little difference in the North Forks from CPS to FPS, but not enough to make note of. The FPS--Solid is about a 1000-1500 PSI less than the CPS Cup Points in the .500s. Not enough to worry over.

There are lot's of "Real Experts" that reside upstairs, maybe we are just wasting our time here. Maybe we should just call it a day, say it's been fun, and quit? After all, All the real knowledge is upstairs from us! Maybe we should all just go back to using some lead round ball bullets, they worked 150 yrs ago? Why bother?

Michael

Michael,

Don't let little hings worry you. You have done great work and you've done so much its a wonder you keep track of all the data. I didn't think there was a bullet you hadn't tested.

Those upstairs guys are like democrates they just don't want to change their minds for the better. Just keep doing the same old thing because they think it works.

Michael,

It's not at all unusual to get lost among the trees when in the midst of the forest.

Good record keeping, occcasional review and varification, and a combination of hypothesis tested by empirical evidence usually gets things in order.

Sam

You are 100% correct! I suppose that we just do what we do, as someone is listening somewhere! I see that on one of those threads, a new member, WC375, actually a member since 2009, but only 9 posts, anyway, WC tried to bring some to the TBP thread here, told them there was some interesting info here on exactly what they were talking about. However it appears his efforts fell on "deaf ears" as he got no response, neither positive or negative concerning the manner, at least not yet. Thanks WC375, at least you are making an attempt to shine light into darkness!

The old saying comes to mind, you can lead them to the water, but you can't make them drink!

IBT

Correct! I keep decent range notes, those notes come in from each day at the range. The first thing I do is start entering data. That's #1 on the list after a range session, enter the data! Soon as it's entered it's backed up on a large external hard drive, and also to a 8 gb USB drive. So the data is in 3 different disks, computer, external hard drive, and USB Drive. From time to time I print the material out, put it in a book for lab review too.

There is a lot of data collected over many years! No crap, I can forget a lot of things, but that hard data keeps me straight. And I have to look back often, more now than years past.

Thanks
M

Oh and by the way, the reason I ventured upstairs is Saeeds safari. I think it's almost over or is over now. It's the top thread on the Africa Forum. But our very own RIP was on that safari with Walter and Saeed. If you did not know that, then we are just as bad as the "Upstairs" people, they don't venture down here, we don't venture up there! I think that RIP is going to have some, "RIPPING" hot bullet performance reviews when he gets back in town, and settled back in on the Non Cons!

Just FYI

M

Where is this dark thread of which you speak?

Michael & Sam,

It is very disconcerting to learn that you both are suffering from severe dilusional disorder The coolade you have been drinking has me a bit "concerned". After having reviewed my 6.5mm penetration recorders, I show 74" of penetration not the noted 71" that you metion. I am sure you lightened the mix for your most recent test.

The only real way to settle the matter is for me to bring the real king of penetration down for a heads up penetration challenge in the SAME mix side by side (no pun intended). Rest assured both you and Sam will be crying like rats eating onions and I will drive away smiling like a opossum eating briars

Not to mention the 320gr 9.3mm going 74" then driving out of the box at 80". I understand that too much coolade consumption will taint ones memory.

I look forward to the championship match up.

BR

Corbin,

We will just have to make a plan to side by side test those little 6.5's. Let me get back from busting an elephant with the 577 and we'll see. Maybe we need to run that 6.5 through a T-Rex test also. HUMMMMMM! Wonder who'd be king then?

Sam

OK Corbin you were right. I went back in time to page 45 and found the 6.5 and 9.3 tests. I stand corrected. The 6.5 went 74 inches and the 9.3 did end up at 80 inches. I guess I still have work to do. I do think the 6.5 will fail in the T-Rex test. I do know why Bell liked the 6.5 and 7mm back in the day. I think these were probably the deepest straightest penetrating bullets around at the time. Heck they still are! Those old 8mm 244 grain bullets went very deep also. We have seen in all the tests that the standard RN solid of the bigger guns don't do so well and tend to tumble after a short distance into the mix. We do however now have that best bullets available for deep striaght penetration in the BBW#13's for the larger calibers. I think this design will do well in any caliber.

Sam

Michael: Have you done any testing with the 450NE and if you can you direct me to the approximate page number pls? Also if you've performed tests with the same caliber and 480gr Hornady DGX/DGS with the 450. Thanks! jorge

Sam/Corbin

Straight Line penetration is all I record, unless I make note. Total penetration should not count!!!!!! STRAIGHT LINE should count.

But, be that as it is, the true and final test that any bullet must undergo before being approved is the "T'REX".






Jorge

Yes, I have tested the 480 Hornady, but in my 458 B&M not in the 450 NE. It really did not do well at all. I based an assumption that all the new DGS were not worth a hoot on that test, but after testing the 500 Hornady I had to eat that assumption, as the 500 Hornady DGS did better, and some other calibers the DGS has done well and were trying. But I even retested the 480 Hornady in both the 458 B&M and the 458 Lott and it made a poor showing again. Now what the difference is, I can't tell you, a bit of a mystery to me.








I would not have a clue as to where something was tested on which page. But, it was not so hard to look through my photos and find them. Except I have not been able to find the photo of the 458 B&M test with the 480 at lower velocity.

Here are a couple of other Hornady DGS tests.




















Michael

Jorge

Speaking of 450 NE we are going to have a proper CEB BBW #13 made for 450 NE.

Sam--correct me if I am wrong about this please, since this is a double rifle bullet, but it will be 480 grs, and .457 correct, not .458?

The bullet will be 4 bands and it will be copper not brass.

I will be doing a 450 and 500 gr BBW #13 also, for 458 Winchester and 458 B&M the 450, and 500 for the 458 Lotts. These will be .458 and will be brass 4 band bullets.

BBW #13s






And on top of that Hollow Points to Match!

Michael

Thanks very much for the detailed info Mike, much appreciated. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
"Upstairs" people, they don't venture down here, we don't venture up there! M

Well Michael, I venture to just about all of the fora - even Walter's. About the only one I never visit it the PF - I look at it much like the 6th floor of the old Bellevue in NYC.

I have no issue with all things being equal…well as equal as manufacturing tolerances allow them to be equal…that there will be a resulting variance in pressure just as there will be a variance in velocity.

Here is my original quotation slightly modified to drill through the statement a bit better:

quote:

Under the ideal case that may be true but from what I hear of anecdotal evidence the powder charge is typically reduced by a grain or two for the NF FPS solid compared to the soft to get identical velocities for the two different bullets.

If this is the case, then it shows that the pressure velocity is higher at the same powder charge for the NF FPS solid than for the soft.

From my prospective I’ve made this statement more correct. Am I incorrect here and missing something?

Jorge, you are welcome.


Paul

I lurk about, but rarely post outside of this, time consuming for me. On occasion I look at Australia, and Alaska--lurk on Africa, but rarely get involved. Honestly a lot of times not much substance to hold my interest. I would not even consider the PF, even to look. There are some things I just don't do. I try to avoid things like that. You know I never watch the news! Never! Never turn it on. Have not seen news in 15 yrs or more. It's all BS, nothing true, all fabricated for entertainment or shock or controversy. Or most of all, Manipulation! I do my thing, vote, one issue, gun issues, the rest of the idiot issues they come up with can burn.

Off track..............But I wish some of those guys would venture down here and take a closer look. They would be very welcomed, unlike taking something up there! A Shame really! But not surprising and I know why for the most part.

Anyway................

Jim

I don't know, you are loosing me some on this?

This week! Was planning my test week out last night before sleeping--JHC-Sleep, eat, drink, think of, wake up with, shooting and bullets! Surely I am nuts! Anyway, I will be busy this week again with pressure tests, I want to test the reduction in pressure 8band to 4band in the 500 MDM, and then the copper BBW#13 8 band to 4 band in the 50 B&M. Get that ground work laid. Then I have some "T'Rex" tests I want to do on some various bullets too.

Sam and company headed across the pond tomorrow! Good luck my friend, if you catch this before leaving, when is your return date? We will all be waiting to hear about performance of the various bullets along for the ride! In your absence we will carry on, and with your return we will have 470 Nitros to test and prototype 4 band bullets--solids and HPs! Barrel strain, POIs, pressures, and terminals on the HPs.

Michael

Hey Michael Thanks!

Yes I leave tomorrow for Africa and a date with a bull elephant. I come back on the 23rd. I'm looking forward to being on the ground in Zim. I dread the flight but thats the bad part of the trip. I've been sick as a dog for 4 days and hope I'm over it by tomorrow. Better now than later.

Sam

Sam

Any of you got a Sat Phone??? I should have sent you with mine! Never thought about it.

I hate the flight--that's why I have not gone in two years now! I despise flying!

I told you to get some levequin! Not sure if that is spelled correct? Good dope will give you hope! HEH HEH!

M

Michael,

Yes I think Doug has a Sat phone. Thanks for the little late offer anyway. Maybe I'll call you when the bull is down!

Got some antibiotics but was hoping to be well by the time I fly out. Wanted to save that stuff in case I get sick overseas.

Flying for that long sucks and it would be nice if Scotty could beam me over.

Sam

Sam

OK, good, yes spend a couple of bucks and call me when the bull is in the dirt! Sorry about the LATE offer on my Sat phone, it never even entered my mind until this morning.

Pack up, get ready, long day tomorrow.

Take a pill and go to sleep on the flight!

M

Michael,

I've recently found this quote from Buddha;

Do not believe on the strength of traditions even if they have been held in honor for many generations and in many places;
Do not believe anything because people speak of it;
Do not believe on the strength of sages of old times;
Do not believe that which you yourself have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired you;
Believe nothing which depends only on the authority of your masters or priests;
After investigation, believe that which your yourselves tested and found reasonable

Sleeping pill (Lunesta would be my suggestion), Levaquin and Satellite phone - all great advice.
Take 750 of the levofloxacin AND some decongestants (over the counter stuff is fine - Sudafed if you can get it) and call me in the morning afer you have drilled the elephant with your 577.

Good Luck and have fun.

IBT

That is so appropriate for what we do here, it is amazing. See below, in red, my interpretation of this.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Michael,

I've recently found this quote from Buddha;

Do not believe on the strength of traditions even if they have been held in honor for many generations and in many places; Round Nose Solids Always worked for me!

Do not believe anything because people speak of it; I heard Round Nose Solids is what people use and it works best!

Do not believe on the strength of sages of old times; He has been a PH for 50 yrs, he says just bring a round nose solid. The elephant won't know the difference.I post on AR and I am on TV, so I know these things!


Do not believe that which you yourself have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired you; We thought that maybe putting a hollow base in a round nose solid would stabilize it! God Sent this to Sam and he did it!


Believe nothing which depends only on the authority of your masters or priests; My PH says he don't see the difference between round nose solids and the flat nose solids. He wrote a couple of articles on it for magazines and he know what's best! Just buy some ammo and come hunting, it does not matter, but pay up front first please!


After investigation, believe that which your yourselves tested and found reasonable

Factors that are important to deep and straight line penetration of solids; Nose Profile, Meplat Size, Radius Meplat, Twist Rate, Velocity, Construction, and SD. End of Story

Thanks Michael and Paul!

I'm trying to finish packing and thats a pain also. Why do we end up with so much stuff when packing? Got to pull everything out and start over to be sure I have what I need. Ammo covered, split it 3 ways so I should have at least 10 rounds of 577. As long as my double shows I could care less about the rest. Its going to be a long time until the 10th.

By the way Michael, I shot my 577 at 50 yds yesterday offhand and got a group like the last one I shot at your place! I think I'm ready.

Sam

When I am packing for a trip, I start at least a month ahead, gun case open, throwing stuff on top of it. Pack the ammo/ accessory bag, then forget what is in there?
Have to unpack it, make sure I have the ammo in the right spot, and amount? Then pack it again. A week later? Repeat process! Split ammo with Moma, most of the time anyway! But will 100% of the time now!

Then the night before, load the truck. Next morning, 4 am--Did I get this????

What a mess!

Sam, I have zero doubt that you are RTG! (Ready To Go), both with the shooting and the bullet you will be shooting! I am telling you and the world right now, today, yesterday, and last week, and next week, month, year! You are hitting the ground with the most effective 577 Nitro Bullet, that has ever been devised by man in the history of the 577 Nitro cartridge, from it's very birth! You will be showing just exactly what a 577 Nitro can do. Which really and truly, the potential has never been met before now!

Good Luck my Friend and Good Shooting! We are all waiting to hear the results!

Michael

OK guys, I am certifiable, I have no doubt. Doing a little loading for some test work tomorrow. Thinking bullets, thinking 4 bands, and thinking neck tension on upcoming bullets, BBW #13s to be specific, and their HP companions.



4 bands, exactly the same as what the .500s have. Only moving 1 or two of those bands up top, leaving the big space between the top 3 bands to the bottom beveled band. WHY? Neck tension. I am having zero issues right now with the 4 bands spaced wide in the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M. Using a good crimp on the 500 MDM, below the top band, to keep it from seating deeper because of recoil.

Now thinking of upcoming bullets in 458 and 416, 375,9.3 in the B&Ms, and sometimes their shorter necks--Because Michael likes shorter necks, if I have those bands up top, providing neck tension, then this should not increase pressures, or change how the bullet works in any manner, other than providing better security in the case. Same exact band width, the works. Now we already know accuracy is not an issue, even with only two bands, so that space in between is of no consequence that I can see.

Crazy, or correct? I already sent an email to CEB about this!

I don't see any issues with this reposition of the bands!



Michael

quote:

Jim

I don't know, you are losing me some on this?

Michael, Don’t’ worry…I just found myself lost amongst the packing boxes… ...so I’ll blame it on the boxes.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
IBT

That is so appropriate for what we do here, it is amazing. See below, in red, my interpretation of this.

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Michael,

I've recently found this quote from Buddha;

Do not believe on the strength of traditions even if they have been held in honor for many generations and in many places; Round Nose Solids Always worked for me!

Do not believe anything because people speak of it; I heard Round Nose Solids is what people use and it works best!

Do not believe on the strength of sages of old times; He has been a PH for 50 yrs, he says just bring a round nose solid. The elephant won't know the difference.I post on AR and I am on TV, so I know these things!

Do not believe that which you yourself have imagined, thinking that a god has inspired you; We thought that maybe putting a hollow base in a round nose solid would stabilize it! God Sent this to Sam and he did it!

Believe nothing which depends only on the authority of your masters or priests; My PH says he don't see the difference between round nose solids and the flat nose solids. He wrote a couple of articles on it for magazines and he know what's best! Just buy some ammo and come hunting, it does not matter, but pay up front first please!

After investigation, believe that which your yourselves tested and found reasonable
Factors that are important to deep and straight line penetration of solids; Nose Profile, Meplat Size, Radius Meplat, Twist Rate, Velocity, Construction, and SD. End of Story

LOL…I corrected your post! If you don’t like it I’ll blame it on the boxes again!!! Good work to you and IBT…makes perfect sense.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK guys, I am certifiable, I have no doubt. Doing a little loading for some test work tomorrow. Thinking bullets, thinking 4 bands, and thinking neck tension on upcoming bullets, BBW #13s to be specific, and their HP companions.

4 bands, exactly the same as what the .500s have. Only moving 1 or two of those bands up top, leaving the big space between the top 3 bands to the bottom beveled band. WHY? Neck tension. I am having zero issues right now with the 4 bands spaced wide in the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M. Using a good crimp on the 500 MDM, below the top band, to keep it from seating deeper because of recoil.

Now thinking of upcoming bullets in 458 and 416, 375,9.3 in the B&Ms, and sometimes their shorter necks--Because Michael likes shorter necks, if I have those bands up top, providing neck tension, then this should not increase pressures, or change how the bullet works in any manner, other than providing better security in the case. Same exact band width, the works. Now we already know accuracy is not an issue, even with only two bands, so that space in between is of no consequence that I can see.

Crazy, or correct? I already sent an email to CEB about this!

I don't see any issues with this reposition of the bands!



Michael

Ok…short neck B&M cartridges…4-Band bullets…

quote:

Only moving 1 or two of those bands up top, leaving the big space between the top 3 bands to the bottom beveled band.

Yes, move the 2nd and 3rd bands closer to the upper band…but not as close as they are in the 8-Band bullets should do the trick. Heading back to the boxes.

Jim

Thanks for fixing my mess with IBT! Holy smokes, that's funny to me! Good to me! Thanks IBT for digging that up!

Yes, I think so on the band positions! I have not had a conference with my "Bullet Bud" (Sam), but I think I will pull this on him when he gets back with those 470 Nitros and we see what's what with them! I like it! Yeah, not as close, but up top! Still 4 bands total!

Damn, you know Dan at CEB is going to go crazy with me and Sam!

HEH HEH! Well, what the hell, might as well join in! The difference is that I take drugs to keep me under control! I don't know what the rest of you are going to do?

Michael,

OK move the 3 bands closer together at the top and each groove can serve as a crimp groove for various seating depths. Leave the space between the third and fourth bands to whatever they come out to. I'm OK with that.

Sam

Sam

Yep, that is exactly what I was thinking while sitting there loading tomorrows test loads.

I sent an email to Dan, but I will call him first thing in the morning and sort that out.

I see no downsides to that. All pluses, crimp grooves, neck tension, and so forth. Should not change pressures, bearing surfaces, nothing.

M

Chef Michael458,

I'd like to place my order now ...

Wherever you decide to put the "crimp groove" on your "smallbores" , make sure that it is placed so that the O.A.L. for my .620s is at 3.70" and the bullet can neither creep in nor out with recoil.

Doubles don't have a magazine box to prevent the salt (peter) from spilling out all over the table if the cap falls off.