It appears that the development of the ESP Raptors has resulted in dissension in the BB Forum. The TBP has been an all-inclusive thread to this point while primarily…I’d say somewhere in excess of 95% of the thread…focused on big bores.

There will be quite a lot of testing with small and medium bores as well big bores as the ESPRs are tested and perfected. Is a totally new forum the answer?... I think it isn’t.

So perhaps a simple solution that would satisfy all participants, now that we have 'Medium Bore Testing' in the Medium Bore Rifles Forum and the '.223 Bullet Test' and the 'Cutting Edge Bullets BBW ESP Raptor. You Might Like It' in the Small Calibers Forum (we already 'The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future!' in the DR Forum), would be to post notice in the BB-TBP that new results are posted in the DRF, the MBR, or in the SCF. That way those who are interested in keeping track of the bullets developed via participation in the AR Forums can keep aware of what is going on… And those who are only interested in BBs don’t have a lot of space taken up in their forum.

If this doesn’t work, perhaps a new Forum dedicated to bullet development and testing is the answer. This should make most everyone happy by having all of these separate threads moved to a single forum. Me I’m ambivalent as I certainly would visit the new forum should one be created… but I also feel that some individuals who would never think to visit that new forum would be totally unaware of what has taken place over the past (almost) 25-months…plus I do believe there have been quite a few individuals that have been introduced to BBs as a result of visiting the TBP that otherwise would have stayed with smaller calibers.

I'll keep the small and medium bore forums updated for discussion in respective information but I think to keep the testing information and results in one place is important. I think next up for testing is the 375 230 grain Raptor if I'm not mistaken.

I can't argue against it.

I really would never have considered posting here except for the fact it seemed the "place to post" for Non Con bullet results. To me it seems to be more about a bullet style than size. Anyways, I do apologise. Last post, I'm out. If intersted, come on down to small bore for my results. No harm, no foul.

BTW, I very much enjoy this thread, even though I have nothing even approaching a big bore!

While we're at it, I'd like to see the 9.3mm in this forum. My reasoning being that most African countries accept the 9.3mm as a DG caliber. I know this is the BB forum not the DG forum, but an awful lot of the members are DG hunters or wana be DG hunters, so the overlap in populations is very high.

465 HH

I invited JTP up to share some of what he was doing, as it relates directly to some comparisons we are doing here. And as I stated when I started doing the test work on these small bore calibers I hoped I could put the work here, on this thread, to keep things together. I really don't care to, nor have the time to chase threads all over the place, and do the work as well. Please believe me, I am working my way up as fast as I can, I don't like doing the small bores, they are just so damned finicky about things, drives me insane to say the least.

Right now, I am at 338, did the Ultra test with the 225 Raptor yesterday. Have not had time to get it up and do any reports yet. Was also very busy yesterday doing Pressure Traces on the new 475 B&M, and thank god the PT 1 is working like a charm, perfect results. I am over 2200 fps with the 450 BBW#13 in the 18 inch barrel. This is the benchmark bullet in .474 for the 475 B&M, once data is done with it, or I have reached max safe pressures of 60000-65000 PSI, prefer to be around 60000, this gives me some room to move, then I take it to the other new 474 bullets from North Fork, which is going to be very interesting, and then on to the terminals for all of them.

In between, there will be new Raptors coming in for terminals once stability has been established, in several calibers. Of course, we are waiting on the big bore Raptors. And, more of the mediums.

Boomy, JTP, and others have done a good job of taking the work to the appropriate Forums so they get the real attention they need, or more important some of those guys realize there is more out there to look at than the same old same.

Yes, some of us do get carried away with the chit chat, and I concur, the chit chat part of it does belong in the appropriate thread on the appropriate forum.

I think the chit chat portion is what 465HH is referring to. Let's try and not get carried away with that.

Please, JTP, hang with us, and you are correct, the same design characteristics will apply as we move up in caliber to the bigger Raptors as they arrive, and we may very well learn more as we move up from the smaller calibers, so that when we get to larger, those issues if any are sorted out before getting to "Real" bullets! HEH HEH...........

IBT, you betcha, Michael is ALL OVER a 9.3 Raptor because of the 9.3 B&M. In fact, I believe when said and done, that will be THE BULLET for the 9.3 B&M for all purpose use. I am not sure of weight yet, 210-230 for sure, penetration of either NonCon or solid, will not be an issue I believe and that 9.3 Raptor may do just about anything you ask of a 9.3 caliber. Crap, the 225 338 does? All it lacks on being a big bore is "caliber", everything else is there!

Boomy, thanks for taking this to Medium and helping JTP with small!

I am coming down to visit! HEH...........

Later today I hope to post the results of the .338 225 Raptor in the 338 Ultra.

Thanks all,

Michael

Here is yesterdays work with the .338 225 ESP Raptor, 338 Ultra.












Now I really have to tell a short story about testing the Solid end of the Raptor, with the 338 Ultra. The other day when I first filled the boxes with test medium, I still had some medium in the back that was untouched, so I added to that and went forward with it. At some point I had put 3 big thick dry catalogs in the very back of the box, to prevent an unexpected pass through while testing the various Raptors, should something exceed my expectations. This particular box has a 2X4 across the top, I can't see the last 4 inches of test medium in the back of the box. So these dry catalogs remained back there, I had forgot.

Testing the Raptors as solids in the 338 WSM and it's velocity, 58 inches, I knew at the higher velocity the Raptors in the 338 Ultra would burn through 64 inches, and out the back, so I backed the first box up, with the second box, as normal for deep diving BBW#13 Solids. I fired the first two, looked at the back, NO EXIT??? Hmmmmm?????? Moved the box over to make sure it was lined up for the next two in the series, and again No Exit??? Checking the witness cards as I moved back in the box I got to the part under that 2X4, and there were the dry catalogs perfect 4 holes in them, and in the last one was ALL 4 Of the Raptors, 100% dead straight penetration, all stuck nose forward in that last Norther tool Equipment catalog! Dry as a chip! If it had not been for that, they would have burned through to I don't know where? I gave it 64 Inches.









Michael

I am off to the range this morning, soon as I finish this. Have a days worth of work planned, which is going to be made of mostly doing Pressure traces in the 475 B&M. I hope to test some terminals as well. We will see how it goes.

However, I do have a Big Bore Treat for you this morning.

I have a friend that I have been communicating with since I think 2007 or so, his name is Jay. He has posted a time or two with us, and keeps up with the thread. Way back he found me and asked for some advice on some things pertaining to 458 Winchester, in which we have corresponded ever since. He keeps me posted on his various adventures and I received some great info from him this week. I asked permission to post it of course for him, although he is more than capable of doing so himself, he agreed to allow me to do so.

Jay just returned from Zimbabwe on one of his buffalo hunts using his Winchester M70, 458 Winchester, and a 450 TSX. Now as I recall I suggested way back when that Jay try the 450 Swift A Frame, but he already had the 450 TSX up and shooting great, so I did not insist he change, but to continue with the TSX as it was shooting well for him, and I was sure it would do a jam up job for him, and it has done so.

In our quotation bars I will show you Jay's commentary to me, along with appropriate photos.

quote:

I just returned from the Save in Zimbabwe and once again the 45 caliber 450 grain Barnes TSX leveled my buffalo.

I have attached a photo of the two TSX bullets recovered from my 2011 buffalo and included a reminder photo from my 2010 buffalo also taken with 450 grain TSX (with Lake Kariba in the background for reference). With the 2010 and again the 2011 buffalo I found the first shot to be so effective that neither buffalo made it more than 30 yards. In both instances, the second round was the insurance shot and really not needed.

This year, my first bullet struck the bull right on the shoulder (I also put the insurance shot in the same shoulder) and we learned in the skinning shed that both bullets had fully penetrated through the front shoulder, the heart, the off side shoulder, and were found nicely expanded right under the hide on the far side. I reiterate my contention that the .458 Winchester Magnum is better than the consensus opinion that the .458 Win. Mag. is a "has been" cartridge and I find it demonstrably more effective on buffalo than the .375 H&H round which I have also used on Cape buffalo. If I was just starting out I would choose the 458 Lott because of the larger case capacity but with that said, I do not find the .458 Winchester Magnum lacking (with currently available powders) by enough to justify the switch to the .458 Lott. The .458 Win. has all the power I need and that power is generated with easily manageable recoil.

Hard to argue with any of that! Excellent bullet performance, excellent shooting, excellent buffalo, congratulations Jay, job well done.

quote:

I had taken my new Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in .416 Ruger with me this year and chose to use it on my Eland bull. I used a 350 grain Barnes TSX and hit the Eland on the shoulder but the folks in the skinning shed could not find the bullet. It was NOT a pass through. I can't generalize from a single bullet and just one animal but I suspect the 400 grain bullet may be the way to go in the future.

Jay, I don't know buddy, I have used that same 350 TSX in my 416 B&Ms in the past, and it really has done a great job for a conventional bullet. Now of course I have moved to the BBW#13 for that sort of work. I suspect soon as the 416 ESP Raptors hit, then for all this sort of work with 416, this will be the ticket for the plains game, elk, moose, bear, lion, leopard in the big bores. That is my plan anyway!

And I will leave any other comment to Jay as he reviews this post, I am sure he might add some thought and things that I did not think of. In departed, my boy likes to live dangerously, and this is a good way to play the "Rhino Card", he just needed an unloaded rifle, and to be pointing it at this rhino, and as far as I am concerned, that's a cheap way to get your "Big Five" Star!

HEH

Michael:

Could you do me a favor? Measure that 225 .338 Raptor and tell me how long it is?

Seeing those 4 bullets stuck in that catalog proves how consistant both the bullets and the media are.

Good morning, again! Just off the range, another Generation of 475 B&Ms to load and trace.

Checking in, and getting my glasses from my office desk, I see Dave needs to know the length of the 225 338 caliber Raptor;

1.417 Without the Talon Tip

1.833 With the Talon Tip

By the by Dave, I also tested the 400 gr Speers. Will get a report as quick as I can.

Sam, I love that 4 bullets all together! Yesterday, I delayed everything until I could bring that in and get the photo. Did you receive the Raptors I sent??? Sent via Fed Ex on Wednesday!

Michael

That BBW#13 end of that Raptor would make a perfect solid for both my .338s!

Well the 338s are uber penetrators for sure.
I'd hunt anything with those.
You could do a Texas heart shot on an elephant with those in case an elephant tried to back into you

Michael,

In your expert opinion would that 338 Raptor be suitable for Leopard?



hehehe The 338 WinMag is still out and working and a 338WSM sure looks like its in the cards More fantastic results!!

SSR

Cross

Yep, I reckon that 338 225 Raptor would do the number on a leopard. But if I was a fellow looking for the "Cats Meow" for that sort of work, I would wait for the .338 180 ESP Raptor, 338 WSM, run it at 3000 +, turn old spots inside out and then some!

M

There is something I almost forgot that I wanted to relay to you guys as well. Still, this is from Jay this week as part of the same report he sent to me. Just FYI.....

quote:

My hunting partner shot his buffalo on the shoulder with a Sledgehammer 300 grain solid from a 375 H&H. The nose of the bullet dimpled in badly, the bullet tumbled, failed to penetrate the buffalo (which required 3 more shots to put down) and the Sledgehammer shank was bent. The PH kept the bullet and intends to show it to the manufacturer during an upcoming safari convention. Most of the time they work but when they do not, the old adage that bigger is better is indeed worth considering.

I think this is the second field problem with this bullet that we have heard about in the last few weeks. One I believe was with Lionhunters hunting Partner Carl as I recall. Seems they have an issue.

The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Seeing those 4 bullets stuck in that catalog proves how consistant both the bullets and the media are.

+1

Wow! Me too on that .338/225gr ESP Raptor!
That will work in any of my .338s from .338-06 to .338 Lapua.
Need to look up that BC with Talon tip.
And a 1:10" twist is sufficient ... simply mahvelous!

Michael,

Fed-X SUCKS, wish you would have sent them some other way. They would not give me a time of delivery and I left notes for them to drop off at a friends house. They did not do that and they are on the way back to you I guess. I had to sign for them and unlike you I'm never home.

Sam

Michael, I noted with interest the length of the .338 225 grain Raptor Without the Talon Tip. I had some .338 225 grain TSX's on hand so I meaured them out of curiosity. I got a reading of 1.420 for the TSX. I could not measure the bearing surfaces for comparison but I "think" any 338 caliber rifle that will stabilize the TSX should have no trouble at all with the Raptor.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

Fed-X SUCKS, wish you would have sent them some other way. They would not give me a time of delivery and I left notes for them to drop off at a friends house. They did not do that and they are on the way back to you I guess. I had to sign for them and unlike you I'm never home.

Sam

At least FedEx usually leaves me a slip that I have the option to sign for leave the item without my presence or instruct them to hold the item at their location where I can then pick it up during their business hours over a 3 days period. I do have better luck with UPS though.

Jim,

Fed-X does not leave slip to sign here and I even wrote a note saying to either leave something for me to sign or take to a friend's house just down the road. No dice! I'm over 60 miles from the nearest Fed-X office so I don't want to go pick up. I hate FED X. Every time I have something coming thru them its a pain. I have to stop everything I'm doing and sit at the house waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Jim,

Fed-X does not leave slip to sign here and I even wrote a note saying to either leave something for me to sign or take to a friend's house just down the road. No dice! I'm over 60 miles from the nearest Fed-X office so I don't want to go pick up. I hate FED X. Every time I have something coming thru them its a pain. I have to stop everything I'm doing and sit at the house waiting.

OpppS!!!!!!!! Sorry! But there was so much, heavy, my guy could not take them to the post. Our post office is HORRIBLE to say the least, and we have a bunch of them, and none of those are worth a damn.

My Fed Ex guys are great, I print the label, call them, it gets done. My UPS delivery is great, but UPS a pain in the ass to ship! So I fed Ex bigger things out, small things send to the post.

Crap! Sorry again. What about the Sec--Address at the packing shed???? Delivery there?

Some good reports coming! Working on them now.

quote:

Originally posted by conditionone45:
Michael, I noted with interest the length of the .338 225 grain Raptor Without the Talon Tip. I had some .338 225 grain TSX's on hand so I meaured them out of curiosity. I got a reading of 1.420 for the TSX. I could not measure the bearing surfaces for comparison but I "think" any 338 caliber rifle that will stabilize the TSX should have no trouble at all with the Raptor.

Condition1

Yep, I think the .338 225 ESP Raptor will be good to go in about any 338 I can think of. I have several 338s, but sent the rest of the 225s I had to Sam to play with. 338 caliber is such a wonderful caliber, and in so many varied great cartridges, I am pushing a 180-200-225 Raptor, and Dan concurs with that. 180s for the smaller capacity cartridges, can you imagine what a 180 Raptor will do for 338 Federal--308/338, 338/06! 200 Raptor for 338 Winchester, 338 WSM, and the 225 for the big boys, 338 Lapua and Ultra! Oh yes. I have the same thing planned, or I am suggesting the same for .358 caliber as well, although not as popular, it should be, I like .358 better than 338!

We live in some wild times with the bullets we have today!

M

Michael,

Sorry I vented! Not your problem. Second address even worse because Fed-X can't find it. Just keep them and I will drive down and pick them up.

Sam

Probably made a mistake this morning, but could not take it. Went upstairs to African, fellow wanting a lion bullet, well you know what I did! Probably remove the post! HEH......

Here is what I said;

quote:

Below you will see what I call the BBW#13 NonCon Carnivore. It's designed specifically for this purpose, lion/leopard. An off shoot of the BBW#13 NonCon, the Carnivore has a deeper cavity, blades shear at or around 2 inches after entering the body cavity, similar to a bomb going off, shrapnel, blades driving through vital organs, ripping and tearing. Massive trauma inflicted, which is what one wants on a cat. Penetration is not sacrificed, and in fact increases from the main bullet which continues on a straight line until exiting. On a broadside shot on lion this bullet will exit, along with the probability of even a few of the blades exiting as well.

I concur, the thought of Art Alphins old Lion Load is completely scary, as with a conventional bullet that does this, penetration is sacrificed as the bullet breaks up. The concept is good, but the actual sacrifice of penetration is horrible, and deadly. Lion load bullet should be avoided at all costs. While one wants to transmit tremendous trauma to a lion, one does not want to sacrifice penetration at all, as some have said you never know what sort of angle may be presented, penetration is not something to sacrifice at all, for any dangerous game.

I was only able to shoot one animal with a Carnivore in June from my 500 MDM, a waterbuck at 106 yards with a 425 gr BBW#13 Carnivore. This bullet entered slightly behind the left shoulder, blades shear at 2 inches moving away from center, the main bullet exited in front of the right shoulder, along with one of the blades ripping an enormous holes about 4 inches apart. Internal damage was horrendous, one lung had a chunk completely separated about the size of my fist, blood vessels were severed over the top of the heart, blood gushed out in a heavy stream from the exits. Bullet must have also hit the right shoulder as it was broken as well, vitals were a mess, mostly mush. Animal tried to get up, but was not able to.

While I tell you about the Carnivore, which is devastating, I have elected to discontinue it for this sort of work in favor of the more versatile ESP Raptor we are working with for my field use in the big bores. The Raptor will inflict as much trauma as the Carnivore, but will most likely give deeper penetration more along the lines of a standard BBW#13 NonCon, as that is what it is on one end anyway. Raptors are lighter in caliber, more velocity, more trauma inflicted, along with deeper penetration as well. Raptors will turn a lion inside out. Blades are smaller than the Carnivore, but work exactly the same way.

I would personally not even consider a conventional bullet again. Oh, and for some of you who don't know, or might have some assumptions, I ain't in the bullet business, I am just a shooter/hunter like you, that wants the best bullet I can have to make me more successful in the field. It's that simple.

Michael

How about some terminals? YES! Dave had a question for me concerning the .458 400 Speer designed for the lever guns. While I have shot and tested about everything in .458, I don't ever remember doing the Speer! And of late I have become a fan of some of the big bore Speer bullets, like the 350 gr 458, and I think some of the 475 Speers are doing great in my Super Shorts.

Dave sent 6 for me to look at, I managed to get 4 of them in the test medium yesterday......





Now what you see is that one of the four broke up. Being smaller across the front, it was able to drive a bit deeper, even though it broke. In our conventional thinking, this would be basically one failure in 4. Or, a 25% failure rate, or 75% success rate, depending on your optimism.

Also to consider, what this bullet would be used for to begin with. It's no buffalo bullet, that is a fact, it lacks penetration, and of course not constructed tough enough to crunch and munch bone. But for a lever gun, using it on deer and even black bear, it would seem to to me to be a great "General Purpose" type bullet, for shooting, practice and those size animals. Even with that break up, it still would not be a sacrifice on those animals.

I would not wish to use this bullet on a big moose hunt, or brown bear, or something along those lines. But, it's not bad at all for the parameters I laid out for it above. For the bigger things one would want to do with a lever gun, then there are other bullets for that use.

Michael

Here he comes! I am down to the last shot, no option to reload, it's the last shot or I will be eaten by an elephant. Everything I have, everything I am, everything I could be, is riding on this one shot, it's all there is, there is nothing more! I can't even get the rifle to my shoulder in this position on my back, I push the rifle out in front of me, just point it at what I can see of the chest of the elephant from 3 steps away. Fortunately, it went bang, elephant turned and fell over on it's side. The last round had done it's job, I would live to hunt another day because of that last .500 caliber bullet driving through the bottom of the heart, causing tremendous trauma upon entry, and exiting the top of the heart driving upward.

But what if it had just gone--- Click, No Bang?

Yesterday I was very busy doing pressure traces, and load data getting the 475 B&M up to speed with the 450 BBW#13 Solid, and had just finished with that, and starting to move to it's .474 420 BBW#13 NonCon match! Last round in the test with TAC, on target, PT up and running perfect, Click? No Bang!

I sat there for a half minute or so, removed the round, and sure enough there is a good dent in the primer! Chamber again, Click--No Bang?

Could it be? A Dangerous Game Hunters worst NightMare! Last round, everything depends on it, it goes "CLICK" instead of "BANG".

A few weeks ago, while testing the .308 130 ESP Raptor in 308 Win, I had a dead Click, no bang! Using Federal 210s for that, I thought hmmmmmmmm????? I disassembled the cartridge to find that the primer had been ignited at some point, but not in this load! HEH.... Now loading 308 the other day, I used a bit different method of loading than for the typical big bores. Using the Dillons I primed on the Dillon, and not as a separate step on the RCBS Primer tool. As the primer had been kicked out of the empty case, it has dropped straight into the primer cup, and while it was drawn to the rear to pick up a new primer, it could not, a used one was in it's place, and got put back in the case, I did not check it, so did not look and see. My fault, and it was NOT a primer failure.

Well, my big bore loading is a bit different, I prime separate on the priming tool, not in the Dillon. So this can't really happen. But, I had hopes I had made some sort of mistake.

This morning I took a look!





Hoping maybe I did not have powder in it, maybe I did something else wrong? I use Federal 215s, in all the years, and many thousands upon top of thousands of Federal 215s I had shot, I only recall one time in which I had a failure in 2006, but I never investigated that. One time, in all the years I have used Federal 215s in big bores, and mediums. How many, 25000 is probably very very conservative, probably more than that. I know I have burned something along the lines of 15000 since starting load development on the B&Ms in early 2006, maybe even more. 1 failure in all those years, and I don't know what that was.

Surely not?




But the fact of the matter is, there was powder, and plenty of it, and this primer you see on the left did not burn or ignite, the mixture is still there! Compare to the one on the right, that has been ignited. No doubt, a real honest to god primer failure. Something we have no control of, we can't look at a primer and tell it's bad.

My primers are cared for like babies. They are in a climate controlled environment 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, permanently. They are not subjected to any sort of contaminant, adverse conditions, nothing.

Now I am not pissed with Federal, or think they are turning out bad primers, nothing of the sort, I will investigate this particular BOX of 100 primers, and in fact the main box of 1000 it came out of, and check lot numbers and so forth. But Federal makes fine primers and I will continue to use them as always. This is just a thing that happens in life, with any man made item. God knows, of the millions upon top of millions of primers made I can't see how they can possibly have so few failures as they do? Primers seem like delicate and particular things to me.

I venture to say that MOST hand Loaders, of big bore cartridges and rifles have probably NEVER experienced this in their lives, and most likely never will. I am a good test subject, if something can be F**k** up, then I can do it for sure!

Think about it!

Michael

Michael:

Thank you very much for testing those Speer bullets for me.

Michael. Have you sent Federal an e-mail about this?? They na6y want to do an investigation, on the failure to fire. Their lab may be able to determine what went wrong.

I would venture to guess, the primer was filled with an improper mix. Not all that it needed

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael. Have you sent Federal an e-mail about this?? They na6y want to do an investigation, on the failure to fire. Their lab may be able to determine what went wrong.

I would venture to guess, the primer was filled with an improper mix. Not all that it needed

Keith

Hey Keith

It just happened yesterday, and I investigated this morning. Think I should contact them? Never thought about it really.



Hey Dave, no thanks needed, pleasure to do so. What do you think?

Michael

Concerning the primer, it looks funny, like something happened, but not much. Federal 215s are purple color coded. No purple there of course. There is some residue on the edge, but I think that is from seating it in a dirty primer pocket, not a burn of any kind. Sorta scary, but what do you do? This is the stuff that is totally out of our control.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael. Have you sent Federal an e-mail about this?? They na6y want to do an investigation, on the failure to fire. Their lab may be able to determine what went wrong.

I would venture to guess, the primer was filled with an improper mix. Not all that it needed

Keith

Hey Keith

It just happened yesterday, and I investigated this morning. Think I should contact them? Never thought about it really.



Hey Dave, no thanks needed, pleasure to do so. What do you think?

Michael

I agree with your assessment entirely. The would be fine for deer, hogs, black bear, and even elk. I really like shooting them at the range because they are pretty cheap. However, with respect to a bigger bear, the Woodeighs would indeed be a better choice. I was very impressed with the performance of the 405 grain Woodleighs that you tested.

Again, I am sure that I am speaking for all of us when I say I can't thank you enough for all your hard work. I know your test media is very tough. I think some of the bullets that don't do quite as well as others in the media might work well in the field but for comparative purposes, this is incredible work. The 65% meplat of the BBW#13s is a true revelation and although I haven't had a chance to try any of the double rifle bullets yet, I am sure they are superb.

i know have CEB in 458, 510, and 308 .. i need to load em up and try them out on game!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Concerning the primer, it looks funny, like something happened, but not much. Federal 215s are purple color coded. No purple there of course. There is some residue on the edge, but I think that is from seating it in a dirty primer pocket, not a burn of any kind. Sorta scary, but what do you do? This is the stuff that is totally out of our control.

M

Michael

I would definitly contact Federal--in the spirit of investigation--if they have a problem then they need to know about it.

SSR

quote:

Think I should contact them?

Michael, yes.

I would aldo inculde the Lot# and offer to send the rest of that lot that you have for testing. Of course they should offer you fresh ones to replace the ones you have sent for their testing.

Keith

Chit happens even with factory ammo/primmers. The ONLY round that I have tried to shoot out of the 10Ks of rouonds (both HL & fac)with NO powder. Was a fatory loaded 45 Colt round.

Keith

Michael

You may or may not recall, but earlier this year I contacted you about primer failure after I had two primers that failed to ignite. They weren't in big bore cartridges, far from it (.19 Badger cartridges), but primer failure is primer failure regardless of what cartridge they happen to be in. These primers were CCI BR4 Small Rifle Benchrest primers. Both primers were hard struck and I attempted 2nd and 3rd firings but to no avail.

What's worse is that I had suffered three primers failures with this same primer some years before, that time loaded in .22 Hornet cartridges. Completely different lot, manufactured years apart.

Now I load all my rifle ammunition primers with a Lee hand priming tool and with the primers all laid out in the tray looking up at you, you can tell if any primer does not look like the others as they stand out. I also inspect all the loaded cartridges, so there's no chance of accidentally having had a fired primer in the case.

My solution to this problem is simple. I will never again buy CCI BR4 primers and will not use any of the remaining ones I have. Ironically, the benchrest primers are meant to be more consistant than the ordinary CCI primers and you pay a premium for them. So much for that!

MFS

Michael,

That primer doesn't look right! Corroded or something. Could it be a primer that was live that you pushed out of a case and then reprimed with it. Pellet looks crushed which could have happened when you pushed it out the last time after failure. HUMMMM Stuff happens!!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

That primer doesn't look right! Corroded or something. Could it be a primer that was live that you pushed out of a case and then reprimed with it. Pellet looks crushed which could have happened when you pushed it out the last time after failure. HUMMMM Stuff happens!!

Sam

No Man! Straight out the box, into the big flat pickup tray, in the tubes, in the case. I can't imagine. There is not much or little purple stuff on it? I don't know. I will make a point to contact Federal however tomorrow.

M