I'd love to see what a 50 BMG raptor could do. Same length as the 750 AMax let's say.

Guys,
With the experience that CEB has with the longer VLD bullets I imagine they'll come up with proper bullet lengths with tip inserts installed - with relating weights - that'll work very nicely through .416 caliber and the common/standard twist rates for these calibers. I perceive though that yhe weights likely won't be what you think you want/need. Just remember who well the 130gr .308 ESP Raptor worked...which I believe works out to something around 160gr in .338 caliber.

As the diameters increase you get a shorter ratio of diameter to length bullet for the same SD. So for the larger diameter bullets to get the proportions right and a decent BC we might need a higher SD. I hope that made sense. I think a 165 grain as well as a heavier 338 would be excellent.

Micheal- You have seen my first .223 bullet test. So far I have just been playing with the testing so to speak, but am going to get much more serious about it on this next go round. I don't own big bores, and really for my purposes about the biggest critter I will be shooting could be a largish feral hog.

I always tend to work with what I have easily available, and what I can stay consistent with. Our plastic welding rod comes in 15" square cardboard boxes, and they work real well for containing the amount of newspaper I need and transporting it. If I get more pentration than that (which probably translates into 24-30 inches of flesh) it would be more than sufficent for anything I plant to hunt around here. Bore diameters will be .308 and under. Ten to eleven inches of dry newspaper will swell to just about the right amount for the box when soaked with water, maybe 15-16 inches. I put a large trashbag in the box first to contain the water while it soaks. That is my basic methodology.

I plan to put witness cards into the mix this time. I have available some 1/16" thick expanded PVC sheet I plan to insert into the mix. For the calibers I use and the game I intend to hunt, where would you think would be the best distances for the witness cards? I think I want the first one about 1" in just to see how quick some of these bullets begin to upset. Maybe the next about 3-4 inches, and a total of 4 in the mix. What do you think about that? Where would YOU put them?

JTP

Testing 308 and below, most everything will be contained in your 15 inch box, until you start doing some NonCons! Then you will need a backup box. I think your methods are sound. I know if you are having to tote this to a range, then it can be a big hassle. Somewhere on some of the first few pages of this thread you will see what I do and my impact boxes. But I think you are dandy.

Now the PVC Sheets. Not familiar with those, but we talked about all sorts of methods here and what we, and I came up with is the laminated card stock. What I did not know to begin with, is that this witness card holds the wound channel, which is very good. But, it is also dependent on the amount of moisture content around it at the moment, so it is not 100% consistent, close, but not 100%.

Distance, I would suggest to begin with, in the small calibers, sometimes they do open quick, so I would have one at 1 inch, as you stated, then one every two inches, especially if you have an ample supply of material! Key, ample supply! After you do a few of these you will learn the best distances for what you are trying to obtain. Also depends on the type bullet.

When I first started with the Witness cards, expanding bullets, as I recall, I started at 2 inches, then had them every 4 inches for the big bores. As I continued, I found that anything over the first one or two was pretty much wasted. So now, like in these Raptor tests, I am just using 1 at 3 inches to show trauma and shear, mostly for my own use to find the shear and how.

With the solids I had one every 10 inches throughout the entire box, so my boxes are 64 inches, I had a total of 6. When doing serious Solid work, they are extremely valuable to show how the bullet tracks! But, they must also be placed EXACT along the entire path. Somewhat a hassle too! Today, I don't use that many, especially testing the BBW#13s. Mostly used to find the damned bullets easier. HEH.....

I think in the end, with the Witness cards, you will settle at starting either 1 or 2 inches in, then maybe a couple more spaced within the distance you expect penetration, the last one in will just be a hole is all, you will most likely stop using that one, don't tell you much with expanding bullets.

Michael

I appreciate JTP! Man, I might just screw old JTP into doing some of this small bore work! It drives me insane, the small bores!

Well guess what? I got to play with my 338 WSM today, and the incredible 225 gr ESP Raptor! Notice some excitement here? Yep! For Sure, thank god to be testing at least a medium bore-WITH NO STABILITY ISSUES, thank you very much!

I have played 338 WSM for many years, from the day 300WSM stepped on the scene, I had one converted to 338! Both my rifles are 22 inch barrels, and of course both of them Winchester M70s, is there anything else? Not to me! Sad thing is, I have never used one in the field, all the time there was always something more important to take to the field, and we all know sometimes field time is limited! Shame, it's a wonderful little cartridge.

A few years ago I had Brian build one for me and it's the one I was shooting today. I have worked up several loads, even had pressure data too on many. Typical load was a 225 gr 338 with 62/RL 15. Depending on the bullet gives me 2650 fps on average with anything at 225. Yesterday I tried the 225 ESP Raptor, dropped it to 61/RL 15, 2785 fps, but a little sticky. So today, I dropped the load to 60/RL 15 and loaded the test loads for todays terminals. I did not try the load before hand, could have been a mistake, but I think not! I am finding two grs less powder with this Raptor is giving me about 100 fps more velocity! Hmmmmmm?





I started out getting POI at 50 yards. Loaded 2 rounds each, Standard NonCon--Talon Tipped NonCon, and of course Solid. Total, 6 rounds. This is the POI for those 6 at 50 yards. If I could shoot better this would be better too!



The test ran easy as could be. Starting with the Raptor in it's Standard NonCon configuration! If you go back to where we tested every 338 caliber bullet on the market, every one we could get our hands on, none of those gave penetration further than 18 inches as I recall.



I almost had the perfect test, then I remembered that I FORGOT to put the 3 inch witness card in, so I only got two rounds on the witness card for the NonCon.




Now, we add the Talon Tip and impact picks up quite a bit at 50 yds. As does performance, both trauma and penetration, in true BBW#13 Style.



I thought trauma was massive with just the NonCon. With the Talon Tip added, and the extra velocity gained at impact, it went to EXTREME massive trauma inflicted. Trauma was immense to around 10 inches. These 4 rounds made absolute mush out of the medium.



Now I figured the Solid part was going dive deep. So I used all the material I had left to give me a full 64 inch box of test medium. I needed it too! Had I not done so, they would have passed through.




This is an incredible bullet! Just incredible. I have never worked with a 338 caliber bullet that is so capable.

Michael

"Tote to the range," isn't that big of a hassle. I have the papers and boxes here in the shop, I save the newspapers out of the break room all year long. I load the box up in my office, put it on the two wheel dollies, and roll it out the back door of the shop to the "range." I shoot it, then I drive my pickup up to it and haul it home to dissect at my convenience.

Expanded PVC. Think a sheet of plastic, made out of PVC like the plastic pipe fittings, but with air blown into the mix as it is formed. It creates a substance kind of like styrofoam, but harder and more brittle, somewhat friable. Non water absorbing. I think it will fracture and show the wound channel good, maybe even more so than card stock. I may be wrong though. I think I will start spacing at 1, 4, 7, and 10 inches. Anything past that and you should be starting to come out of the vitals on the game I am talking about, at least starting with these little .224 bullets.

JTP

OK on the PVC stuff. Shoot it, hell we will find out! Might be great! 1-4-7-10 sounds fine, really no set rules, long as the next one you want to compare is the same.

OK if you are not toting to the range, and yes I do remember you saying right out the back door basically, AT WORK no less! HEH HEH..... Yeah, Me too. My boss likes to shoot and hunt as well, so I get by with a lot! HEH HEH HEH... But he can be a real bastard sometimes! Don't tell him of course I said so!

Got some more photos in from Doc just a few minutes ago, the big 900 gr BBW#13 Is a BIG HAMMER!

Quote From Doc

quote:

Check out "the" bullet. Could reload it after penetrating the entire skull.

M

I shoot a .223, .220 Swift, 7x57, .270 Win, and 30-06. Dad shoots a .260 Rem and a 25-06 as his go to. I am sure he would load and shoot some as long as I set up the test and did the grunt work.

Michael,

I may want to pick your brain about that 338 WSM. been thinking about it for awhile and it might match up good with the 416 B&M.

those terminals sure look great on it. does the tipped Raptor go through the Mag?

And pics of the Rifle when you get a chance--love gun porn

SSR

Glad those 338 Raptors put a smile on your face
Looking at the impact velocities compared to the muzzle velocities they seem to have a decent BC
Looking now at the penetration with non con end and double in game penetration looks like 50"+ wound channel with those bad boys. For sure an Elk heart burner! That could make a big difference if you can't get a decent angle shot.

Cross

Yes, 225 ESP Raptor, Talon Tip, works dandy in the WSM magazine. Terminals are incredible.

Will see about some photos soon as I can on the rifle.


Elk, moose, eland, kudu, bear, anything one does with a 338 caliber, not safe from any angle with a 225 ESP Raptor. Good thing I did not have these things back when I was shooting 338s, I might never have moved up in caliber! Oh my god, blasphemy! Don't even think such things!

Michael

I'm curious to hear the results of that pachyderm pill. Those recovered flat points are rare!

Micheal, Micheal, Micheal. I blame you for putting bad thoughts in my head. I have a 40 XBKS in .220 Swift that the throat is gone in. Last couple of years I have benn thinking of hauling it just up the road to Mike Bryant and having him rebarrel to 6mm Remington as a long range coyote gun. Now you have me thinking of a fast twist Swift. So tell me, what bullets are under developement in .224, and what twist would it take to stabilize them? Tipped .224 Raptor in a fast twist hot .22 would be a smokin' whitetail culling machine. Maybe even in .224 TTH.

How fast have you guys pushed one of these things?

If you look at page 201 you can see the results of them being pushed to 4,150 fPS
With the tip end they should shoot like a laser. There will be a 6mm also. The goal is to get them stable in most rifle twists or multiple weights.

Is any of this info getting to the medium bore and small caliber forums?

If so, I don't see the impact.

A Medium Bore Terminal Bullet Performance Thread and a Small Caliber Terminal Performance Thread need to be started with appropriate postings in those forums. At least reference and link the medium bore and small caliber postings to the Big Bore Terminal Bullet Performance thread in the Big Bore Forum.

JTP

Yep, fast 224s! Smoking. I ran that 40 Raptor to 4150 in the 223 WSSM. It did very good as well. I am not sure where we end up right now in 223. I think 40 and 50. the 55 Raptor was not stable in even 1:9, maybe it would be in 1:7, just don't know. But right now I am pushing the 40 and a 50 if the 50 can be stable?

Twist rates? I am not much of an expert down in these small bores, in 223 I always liked the 1:9 as a do everything almost twist. Give us some time on that .224s.

The 243 is 60 gr I think? I don't have anything that shoots 243 so I have not paid much attention to them.

I think there will be more than one Raptor per caliber. I know that Dan and I talked a new 70 gr for the .257 along with an 80, that's pretty much confirmed right now. Some of the rest to follow.

IBT, I think that JTP has started one on small bores, but specific to 224 caliber right now. Doing a good job down there as well.

Personally, keeping up with several threads is more than I want. I can barely keep up with this one. Anyone that wants to is welcome to take it there to the appropriate area. ?????

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Now I figured the Solid part was going dive deep. So I used all the material I had left to give me a full 64 inch box of test medium. I needed it too! Had I not done so, they would have passed through.

This is an incredible bullet! Just incredible. I have never worked with a 338 caliber bullet that is so capable.

Michael

Beware of the 9.3. Maybe you better put a stopper at the back of the box.

I started a thread in small and medium bores. I'll update the threads with pics and such.

I Bin Therbefor,

I don't currently own anything bigger than a 9.3X62 but I've been on this thread like a Tick on an Enimic Dog for about 150 pages.
If they don't want to look around and learn well thats to bad.
This thread has overturned a century of what we thought was fact and shown it to be folly.

I'll never leave this thread untill they pry my dead fingers off the keyboard...LOL

Cheers, John

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I started a thread in small and medium bores. I'll update the threads with pics and such.

Many thanks!!!! I owe you a

Darn, like Max I also have 300+ 338 Barnes TSX's and others. 200 gr 338 Raptor would really be interesting to work with. Between us we had 9 single shoot kills with our 338 WSMs using 210 gr Partitions in Nambia a year ago.

Plan to order 223 cal 40 gr, 6 MM 65 gr and 25 cal 80 gr as soon as they are available. Like to try the 223s on deer here in Ok later this month and the 6 MM or 25 cal in Colorado on mule deer in early December with Max.

Brett

.395 Family Member

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I started a thread in small and medium bores. I'll update the threads with pics and such.

Many thanks!!!! I owe you a

I am running my second round of tests today for my thread down in the small bore forum. It is the second group of conventional style bullets since I haven't gotten the Raptors in yet from Micheal. He is sending me his leftovers to put into my tests.

Building a pretty good baseline of what is out there. Next series I plan to do a "best of" where I take the top preformers and run them again, throwing the Raptor and BBW 13 Non Con in there with them. Should be intersting. I am really looking forward to it. Here is a link to it:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/1321077561

This was posted in the African big game forum by the good Dictor.
Seems the 600 NE and the 900 grain solid did it's job. I'm not so versed in elephant skull physiology but I'm guessing this is good.

Quote

Elephant went down at the shot and received two more for good measure, including one from dad witht the 375Flanged spitting out 300 grain CEB#13 solids. First shot taken while ele was quatering away at 20 paces traversed from right occiput/mastoid to left temporal bone and found just under skin. I could reload it.

Boomy
I know very little about elephant skulls but,

That is alot of energy soaking mush to go through from (I Think) Behind the ear all the the way to the left temple.

Matt

Yes diagonal complete penetration and I'm guessing straight line penetration of a pachyderm noggn is awesome. That is some trophy bullet recovered he has.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
I am running my second round of tests today for my thread down in the small bore forum. It is the second group of conventional style bullets since I haven't gotten the Raptors in yet from Micheal. He is sending me his leftovers to put into my tests.

Building a pretty good baseline of what is out there. Next series I plan to do a "best of" where I take the top preformers and run them again, throwing the Raptor and BBW 13 Non Con in there with them. Should be intersting. I am really looking forward to it. Here is a link to it:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/1321077561

JTP

Was in a big conversation with Dan yesterday afternoon and he has made some changes to the 55 gr Raptor. A change in bands, a change in length and meplats. It is now shorter than the 55 BBW#13 NonCon. Which is very stable in the 1:9 twist, and stable without the tip in my 1:12, but add the tip, and it's sideways at 50, in 1:12. It's going to be tested of course, so we see what we see. The Raptors DO NOT, relate to normal "stability" formulas! They are an animal of their own, and are going to require nothing but good old trail and error to get things sorted out. But as we move onward with them, get them right, get them stable in various calibers, well, extreme performance is the end result, in regards to what we are looking for in terminals.

Michael

I think you are spot on as far as the stability factors go. The 55 BBW-13 (.224 diameter) shows not stable by the calculator on the JBM website, but the single test round I shot this morning did go point first through the target with no yaw that I could see at 50 yards. Gimme 30 minutes and I will have a few into a box at 100 and we will see.

As noted in a couple posts before, the BBW#13 55 grain in .224 was not stable in my slow twist 22.250 (1:14 twist), but shot amazing groups in my 223 WSSM (1:10 twist).

Okay, BBW#13 is slightly understabilized in my CZ 527, 1-12 twist. Let me get some notes on my target so everyone can decipher it, and I will post it up. 40 ESP Raptor looks good. And BTW, I didn't put anything out he back of the box, but nearly. Those 55's dig deep. Liking that alot.

Okay, first up I am going to post the actual 100 yard target I shot through. I was skipping around trying to get bullets in empty spots in the newspaper for terminal tests, so it looks pretty disjointed.

I think I have it labeled pretty self explanatory. The ones in question are in pink, those are the 55's. Kind hard to see in the picture but it shows up real well in person. Not totally sideways or anything, but they are all three slightly oval, enough to see for sure.



Nex up I am going to post a "composite target" that I made by placing the aim point for each individual shot on a common aim point and tracing off exactly the impacts. I needed to do this to try and get some basic targeting info. As you can see the 40 Raptor compared favorably with my go to Nosler load. If you go to the 55 though, groups are starting to open up significantly. That also tells me things aren't right and this bullet is not stable in my rifle.



I'll try and get to the penetration part of the test after lunch.

JTP

For sure, the 55 BBW#13 is not stable in your rifle. It's going to take a 1:9 to 1:10 twist to stabilize it. Like RobH, I have several, I never even considered it in one of my rifles with 1:14, tried it in a Sendero, 1:12 I am told, and it's great at 50, add the tip, all to hell then. In my 1;9 Twists, perfection tip and no tip.

Back to the range

M

Okay, ran my trailcams at lunch and I am going to have to bail outta here and go try and shoot one. Don't have much time right now but will get back to you guys later. Gotta load the last 5 40 ESP Raptors to take with me tonight, will use one if I can.

Quick results, 40 Raptors are in about the same class for me as the Nosler 60 Solid Base I have been shooting. Penetration a touch less, but damage real nice.

BUt damn, that 55 is SWEET. I don't know who does the design work, but PLEASE tweak that thing a little so a 1 in 12 will stabilze it. The one that stayed point forward went 12.5 inches deep, the two found sideways stopped at 11 1/4. the 40 Raptors stopped at 8.5 to 9, my NSB went 9.5 to 10.

I like that 55 so much I may try to chuck one in the lathe next week, turn it into a 50-53 and see if it will fly. It is just nearly there, and if it would....

I will go in more depth later, gotta get out of here ASAP.

Being that bullets are tools and use the right tool for the job the light 40 grain Raptor you see keeps up with the best in terms of penetration but does a lot of damage. Compare the weight of the left over bullet of both if you can and post the results please. If I had a 22 and wanted maximum damage as a self defense bullet but wanted to limit overpenetration that 40 grain Raptor would be my choice. The redesigned 50 grain raptor should be tops in penetration and damage.

quote:

I like that 55 so much I may try to chuck one in the lathe next week, turn it into a 50-53 and see if it will fly. It is just nearly there, and if it would....

Something to consider for the 55 non con. In a lathe or with just a file make the meplat 70% of the driving band .156" add a larger pressure funnel by countersinking to the full meplat and if not stable take a smidge off the rear and you should have a 50 grain non con that should sheer at lower velocity.

While talking about bullets for the 223 may be interesting, does that discussion belong in the big bore forum?

465H&H

Yes I'll try to limit my discussion to those designated boards and the threads already exist but think the testing results should be posted on this thread for continuing the knowledge and reference base.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
While talking about bullets for the 223 may be interesting, does that discussion belong in the big bore forum?

465H&H

I haven't got an answer, but I do feel some frustration. Maybe what is needed is a "Terminal Bullet Performance" forum.

Sorry, I'll try and keep it down in the small bore. I just thought some of the design characteristics might carry over, and this thread is really heavy on these Non Cons.

465H&H[/QUOTE]

I haven't got an answer, but I do feel some frustration. Maybe what is needed is a "Terminal Bullet Performance" forum. [/QUOTE]

You know, that's a damn good idea

Cheers, John