Capo

Yes, I am proud of what John has been able to do with the 375 B&M in such a short time period. Of course he was determined to have it on this hunt. He says it was such an easy gun to carry on the hunt that it was very much a pleasure, never a burden.

I expect to lay hands on those big 750s today!


Buffalo

I would say that the 500 Hornady DGS and the Barnes Banded Solid were both very successful on your hunt. They were and are successful in the test work---They are successful in the field-Refer back to Page 1 of this thread!

Yes, the #13s do look good! Oh and you can do with a lot less barrel and be more than effective in that big honker of a 577 you have. Just go to 20 inches and be done with it! Even at 2000 fps Sam and I are driving completely through box #1 into Box #2---no 577 has EVER done that.

My god, I would not have guessed the PH rifle to be a double from the photo. I think you have to be wrong, those barrels look to be around 36 inches or so, and Sam is right, I could get TWO B&Ms out of those barrels, NO WAIT--it's a double--I could get 4 B&Ms cut out of that gun! YIPPIE! HEH HEH!

Michael

Michael,

This may be the wrong place, or it might be the right place, I dunno, but here's my report on the 330 BBS's from two .45-70s... both single-shots: a Ruger No.1 (long-throated) and an H&R.

The short story on the Ruger is that the BBS is VERY accurate at 2500 fps (actually 2499)at 2.9" COL crimped in 2nd groove, over a significant, but not max, dose of H4198. I suppose that could be used on anything in Africa, but I'm not the judge of that.

A longer story on the H&R: as a background, I once literally flattened a trophy-size bear with a frontal-chest shot at 70 yds using a 465gr hardcast at 1900 fps from my NEF (New England Firearms), same basic rifle as the H&R but with a different looking syn stock. The hardcast had a 55% meplat and a neighbor heard the "thwack" of impact and said he knew I had either hit the bear or a tree! All that to say that I know what even a .25" flat tip will do on a big bruin... it never moved from it's tracks and the bullet was never found.

From the 22" barrel of my H&R(rifle is 37")I was amazed at what a modest load of H4198 produced @ COL of 2.77". FPS = 2374 fps! I'd guessed 2250, and rarely am I off by more than 10 - 20 fps! That really surprised me!

If you give me an email address, I'll send pics if you want, but there's more to this story: For the bear season this year, I took that little H&R, with that load, as life insurance while putting in baits, checking them and putting up three tree stands.

And here is why: I knew a big bruin was in the area from signs and sightings by residents of the area, including the man who arranged access to private agricultural properties.

Long story shorter: the young man I was guiding ended up shooting a young bear... nothing wrong with that, it was his first, and we had to ambush the bear coming up from a wilderness heading to the bait area as our cover was literally blown (due to very high winds, the hardwood was denuded). But signs were prolific that the big bruin was all around us, trying to intimidate... that's not newsworthy, but the usual experience in baiting dominant bruins.

The late afternoon-early evening, when big Ben shot "his bear", other activities were occurring; the dominant bruin had plans to feast on one of the four horses in the pasture just adjacent to the treeline where our stands were located... that night, or sometime the next day he ambushed the black stallion, chased it into the bog and killed it!

Would that 330 BBS leaving at 2375 fps been enough to keep everybody safe

Can't wait 'til next season to go after that monster! Would he qualify as DG?

Can't post pics here, but will send them if you'll post them.

(Need to add this: I chose that bullet because of this thread and Michael's recommendation )

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hey Bob

I hate to be in the "recommending" business, some might say that "I Thought" I was some sort of expert or some BS such as that! I consider myself a mere student of. Having said that, I will tell you exactly what I would do in the same scenario.

Ain't no bear on the planet that will stop a 330 Barnes Banded from reaching the vitals if you shoot straight! Yes, I would have 100% confidence in that bullet to do it's job, drive straight and deep especially on a bear.

Now my choice of rifles would be different however, but that is for another time!

In my opinion bear is high on the list of dangerous game animals regardless of size a bear can work a fellow over pretty good! And one of my favorites to put bullets into! Notice I did not say "Hunt", as most of my little bear hunting experience it's always cold and wet, two things that I don't get along with too well! I hate to hunt them--But I love to see them and stalk them, and then of course do some shooting! Actually if it were not "wet" all the time, the hunting part is not so bad! But that "wet" part is not so good with me!

What would be real high on my list right now for your scenario is my own little 458 B&M Super Short with a 325 North Fork Cup Point on top, followed by two of the 330 Barnes Banded! This would be a great combo, 16 inch barrel, 6.5 lb rifle, both those bullets just a tad more than 2200 fps. Next would be the full 458 B&M with the same bullet combination, rifle 18 inch barrel, with the Ultimate stock 6.5 lbs velocity something along about 2450 fps or so. A bear hammer!

Opps, I said I was not going there with the rifles, damn could not help it. Better yet, a 50 Super Short loaded up with .500 caliber bullets, wait, maybe a 50 B&M with those big 450 gr North Fork hammers? Or..............Oh stop already! JHC I could carry on and on................

Michael

I am a little behind on required reading but now we have a real hunting caliber, the .375!!!!!

Perfect plainsgame and backup for in case anything happens to your DG rifle.

Have you tested any 300 grain bullets with it?

Mike

375? You talking to me? I don't own a 375 anything!

I can't test 375, you must do that chore! HEH

I have 9.3--Rumor is that is bigger than 375 anyway, 9 is bigger than 3??????

M

Heh Michael, if you need a .375 to play with, let me know! I'll send it right out no problem.

DWright,

I gave Michael a 375 B&M to play with and lots of bullets to shoot. Several weeks later I got the gun back and all but a few bullets. He is not going to mess with a 375 anything!

Sam

quote:

Now my choice of rifles would be different however, but that is for another time

Michael

But Michael, single-shots add to the excitement!
Do you make those B&Ms in singles? I'd be interested...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

People, I am a disturbed individual, there is no doubt about it! I don't know this affliction I have, never heard of it, of course I have many disorders for sure, scopes are one, I cannot deal with a crooked ass cross hair on a scope. Most people (SAM) says mine are crooked, I know his are crooked! You do not want to know the things I have done to solve this! We won't go there. There are other little things that hang me up to.

None the less, it's this caliber thing. I am finding more and more difficult to find interest in anything under 458 caliber. Used to drop down to 416, but even 416 seems a bit childish these days.

Listen, I have some fine Winchester rifles, lets start at 338. Probably 1/2 dozen 338 Winchesters, nice guns, good cartridge, 338 fan, but I have no interest. Nice Winchester M70 338 Ultra, 24 inch barrel, I did develop lots of good loads and such, lost interest. Always wanted a 338/06 and a 358 Winchester, had nice WInchesters built, I could not even get past the first generation load development before putting them in the corner, retired. Always a 358 STA Fan, have shot a heap of critters with 358 STA, have two nice WInchester M70s, retired. Built a 358 Ultra, did some work about 4 yrs ago with it, developing the loads, too big, too long, lost interest. Got into 9.3 caliber, built two 9.3X338 Winchesters, 22 inch barrels, did some load development, thought they were great, built a 9.3 Ultra, did not do the first generation load data, lost interest. 35 Whelen, lost interest. Once the 9.3 B&M came to be, all the rest of that stuff was too big, too long, too heavy, and what was the point?

Now I like my 9.3 B&M, serves my need (If I had one) for medium stuff. But so does 416 and 458!

Nahhh, I don't need nothing to gather dust in the corner, like a 375. No interest.

Been on this little bullet kick lately, anyone notice??? HEH HEH!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Now my choice of rifles would be different however, but that is for another time

Michael

But Michael, single-shots add to the excitement!
Do you make those B&Ms in singles? I'd be interested...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Well now Bob, since you mention a nice single shot, just so happens..........

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Now my choice of rifles would be different however, but that is for another time

Michael

But Michael, single-shots add to the excitement!
Do you make those B&Ms in singles? I'd be interested...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Well now Bob, since you mention a nice single shot, just so happens..........

VERY NICE!

Too bad there're not Rugers, but very nice indeed! Hat's off to you...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I am still working on the CEB BBW #13. Received some brass .500 500 gr prototypes and 425 copper prototypes last week. Results were good, not as good as I want for the 500gr Brass, but I think I know why and making those changes on the next run of prototypes.




I found the edges just a tiny bit sharper than I wanted on the brass bullet, so we are putting more of a radius on them, then the meplat was large at 70%, so that comes down to 67% with the radius I think.
That will sort the nose out--then I am removing 4 of those bands on the bullet, from the top one down, skipping every other, bottom band the same, but giving it a bevel for easy loading.







Some people would say I am a bit particular about the bullets--Truth is, that's a fact! I am. What you see above is more than enough to do any job asked of it RIGHT NOW! But I want better! I want the BBW #13 to be the absolute best it can be, and I Don't Compromise when it comes to this stuff! Nor do I Negotiate on these matters. Nothing we do can be 110% perfect, but we can strive for that! And it does not take much, a simple radius will make all the difference in the world, getting the meplat to 67% will increase depth of penetration in addition.

Michael

The 425 CEB BBW #13 Copper is designed for the 50 B&M Alaskan Lever gun. It fell in very nicely, gave good results, meplat a little large, but ok, and the edge of the meplat had an excellent radius so no worries there. Again, reducing the bands from the top down, and in addition the top engraving on the bullet has to go.

This one performed about what I expected and just tweaking a few changes before having it on hand for the lever guys. I believe that this bullet will fall in nicely with the 450 North Fork soft point designed for this cartridge and rifle, both bullets work through both the Marlin and M71s with ease. This and the North Fork will make the lever gun a big hammer! Buffalo, no problems!

416 Non-Con verses deer. I shot a nice doe yesterday with my 416 Remington Magnum and a 330 SSK Non-Con brass hollow point. Bullet did just what it is supposed to do. Deer was shot through the shoulders at 30 yards. The deer dropped so fast that the other doe standing facing her just stood there wondering what happened. I think maybe an ear moved a little. Exit hole was about the size of a penny and had star cuts in it. Petals blew for sure as there was one little piece of brass in the exit hole. Inside was goo and trauma was back to the guts. Massive tissue damage. Heart and lungs were liquid. My buddy Doug plans on shooting his lion with it in 2 weeks when we are in Zim. I'm positive this bullet will mess up a lions day. Was going to have Michael post photos but they are just too messy.

Sam

quote:

I cannot deal with a crooked ass cross hair on a scope.

Then get away from those "cheap" scopes and get a S&B. The reticle will be straght

On 458, 500, and 416 questions I've learned a lot on this thread. As for 375, I would agree with Michael that anything that the 375 can do, the 416 can do better, within reason, of course. Neither should be considered for shots over 400 yards, and practically speaking, I would limit that to 300 yards.

This may be a good time to outline some factors in bore choice, which will get us back to the question of 416, 458, 505, 585, etc.

With old lead-bullet technology, softpoints for buffalo and large bear needed to have a sectional density of .300 or better. Even so, a 'raking shot (3/4 away)' on a large dangerous animal should be passed up, (a 65+% meplat, flatnosed solid would work, but one should wait for a better shot). With mono-metal bullets we might talk about the demise of sectional density, but in reality the numbers have simply shifted about 10%. Instead of a sectional density of .300, we now need to think in terms of .275. That means that a 225 grain in 338 can do what a lead-core 338 did in 250 grain, or a 350 grain in .416 can do approximately what a 400 grain lead-core did. As confirmation, testing on this thread about 90 pages ago showed that one cannot drop to a 210 or 185 grain bullet in 338 and still expect guaranteed deep penetration. The Barnes 350 grain TSX in .416 with a sectional density at .289 is still more than adequate, but the 300 grain TSX at .248 sectional density has dropped below a level of 100% guaranteed deep penetration for buffalo, ditto for the TSX 350 grain .458 with only a .238 SD.

I would love to hunt nyati with a .585 bore, 510, 505, etc., but do not own one. If I pick one up, it will be a specialty calibre for buffalo.

What I do enjoy, is walking the forest with a calibre that allows occasional long shots. See story below. For me, long shot capability means sighting in at 2" high at 100 yards and not dropping more than 9 inches below at 300 yards. This would be difficult to achieve in the 505 Gibbs, though it's pretty close. (A handloaded 525 TSX in .505 to 2560 fps (7700 ft lbs.) would still drop 12" at 300 and be a marginal longrange rifle.) The 450 Rigby gets closer. The 450 grain TSX in 450 Rigby at 2650 fps only drops 10" at 300 yards. (That could just about work, but it didn't exist when I got my first 416 Rigby, and still costs almost triple what a plain-jane 416 Rigby costs.)

Now the refrain of 'short, light, handy' DG gun on this thread has not fallen on deaf ears. There is a chance that I might carry one of those new Ruger Alskan in 416 Ruger over to the dark continent next year. 20" barrel. Able to push a handloaded 350 TSX (.289 SD) at over 2600 fps, for a 10" drop at 300 yard. In other words, a 'liveable compromise'. AND, unpublished news from Barnes: the 416 350-grain TSX is coming out with a blue tip in 2011. This is great news for those who are thinking along the lines that I'm outlining here.

Now why the silly insistence on 'flat' 300-yard capability?
Two weeks ago my son and I were creeping across a wide open area in bent-over 3'-4' grass toward a grazing hartebeest. hey, it's hard on the back walking bent-over/crouched for 500 yards! Hartebeest feeds, we walk. Hartebeest head comes up, we freeze. Hartebeest continues feeding, we walk. This went well until we were a lasered 250 yards away and the hartebeest turned to stare us down. 250 yards was not a problem for an MOA rifle, though I chose our 338 WM with its slightly flatter trajectory than our 416. Either would have been fine and we sight-in both to 2" high at 100 yards. A Gibbs would have worked in this case, too, since we had a clean laser reading on the animal. But without that laser reading the Gibbs would have been marginal. (Is it 200, 250, or 300 yards? Plan for a 12" drop and hit over the spine?) So I guess that I am arguing the Selby-OConnor line that the 416 is a superb all-around calibre, from reedbuck to buffalo. (My son had taken a reedbuck the day before with the 416.) It is about the practical end of the line for a comfortable, all-around, flat-shooting rifle, though I am willing to try to add the 450 Rigby to that equation.

Maybe next year when father and son walk the bush, we will do 416 and 416, rather than 416 and 338. We are still open to a 505, but practicalities may keep us with the tried and 'flat' 416.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

I cannot deal with a crooked ass cross hair on a scope.

Then get away from those "cheap" scopes and get a S&B. The reticle will be straght

JWP

I hear you--I am just not paying you no damned attention!!!!




Can't have a damn scope bigger than my rifle!

LOL

Tanzan

Your view on SD and the current expanding bullets and calibers you discuss I would say is pretty close and I would not disagree on those points, with these bullets and calibers. For the most part you are talking "expanding" and Barnes as opposed to premium lead core. What you present seems reasonable, and correct.

UNTIL---We get to the Non Conventional expanders! The brass hollow points where the blades shear, and the remaining slug continues to penetrate, a copper HP that shears at velocity and does the same, and I consider the North Fork Cup Point (Expanding Version) a Non Conventional also, and it drives very deep! If these are added to the mix then SD goes down another notch, as all of these will penetrate 30% or more, deeper than Barnes and Conventional premiums of the same weight, or even heavier. Trauma inflicted is extreme on everything I have witnessed thus far.

There is still much field work to be done with many of the Non Cons, but if they perform anything like they do in the test work they are truly a miracle bullet. I have good enough experience with the copper non cons to attest too, not enough with the brass or North Fork Cup points---YET. I will starting next year with a huge variety of critters, including buffalo. Then the follow up on Australian buffalo afterwards. The main mission on these field excursions will be testing the Non Cons in several calibers.

As for your 300 yds and the 416s, I can see no issues with that at all, 416 is very versatile in that respect, and I consider it top dog in that category. I will always feel the 416 comes a little short of 458 + with the heavies, but that's just me. I like bore diameter a lot, but even then you have to have the right bullet!!!!! Big bore, sorry ass bullet, equates to failure, as it does with every bore size, gotta have the bullet to go with!

You don't need 338, use 416!

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
416 Non-Con verses deer. I shot a nice doe yesterday with my 416 Remington Magnum and a 330 SSK Non-Con brass hollow point. Bullet did just what it is supposed to do. Deer was shot through the shoulders at 30 yards. The deer dropped so fast that the other doe standing facing her just stood there wondering what happened. I think maybe an ear moved a little. Exit hole was about the size of a penny and had star cuts in it. Petals blew for sure as there was one little piece of brass in the exit hole. Inside was goo and trauma was back to the guts. Massive tissue damage. Heart and lungs were liquid. My buddy Doug plans on shooting his lion with it in 2 weeks when we are in Zim. I'm positive this bullet will mess up a lions day. Was going to have Michael post photos but they are just too messy.

Sam

Speaking of Non Cons--I don't want this to go unnoticed or missed. I have the photos of this, and they are not pretty, a very ugly scene, insides completely exploded. Looks like MASSIVE trauma inflicted, even more so than in the test medium, which I would expect. Small exit, the remaining slug continuing to penetrate, expected. I can't see a downside to this bullet on dangerous game. I think it would explode the inside of a lion, and penetration not an issue at all. I hope we find out soon!!!!

M

quote:

UNTIL---We get to the Non Conventional expanders! The brass hollow points where the blades shear, and the remaining slug continues to penetrate, a copper HP that shears at velocity and does the same, and I consider the North Fork Cup Point (Expanding Version) a Non Conventional also, and it drives very deep! If these are added to the mix then SD goes down another notch, as all of these will penetrate 30%["] or more, deeper than Barnes and Conventional premiums of the same weight, or even heavier. Trauma inflicted is extreme on everything I have witnessed thus far.

There is still much field work to be done with many of the Non Cons, but if they perform anything like they do in the test work they are truly a miracle bullet. I have good enough experience with the copper non cons to attest too, not enough with the brass or North Fork Cup points---YET. I will starting next year with a huge variety of critters, including buffalo. Then the follow up on Australian buffalo afterwards. The main mission on these field excursions will be testing the Non Cons in several calibers.

As for your 300 yds and the 416s, I can see no issues with that at all, 416 is very versatile in that respect, and I consider it top dog in that category. I will always feel the 416 comes a little short of 458 + with the heavies, but that's just me. I like bore diameter a lot, but even then you have to have the right bullet!!!!! Big bore, sorry ass bullet, equates to failure, as it does with every bore size, gotta have the bullet to go with!

You don't need 338, use 416!

M

Yes, we still await more testing on non-coms. My talking above does assume a desire to retain bullet weights and bullet integrity. That is why expanding mono-metals with reasonable expectation to keep the petals are being chosen over a solid. And up to now that is why I only put solids as a second or third bullet on buffalo but not as a first bullet. If that equation changes and we can use 300 or 350 grain petal-blowers on dangerous game then it will be much easier to get 458s and 500s flat out to 300 yards.

. . .

yes. 416 and 416 has a nicer ring than 416 and 338. (Though that hartebeest heart picture that Photobucket censored this week was impressive from the little 7.5 lb. package in 338.) And keeping the 416 rifle under 8 lbs. sounds nice, too. I figure that a scoped 416 Ruger Alaskan, loaded with 3 shots, will come in at about 9 lbs in a short package.
Maybe by 2012 we will be walking 416 and 500. One rifle at a time. I like diameter, too, if I can move it fast enough. That was the whole purpose of a 416 over a 375 in the first place. Plus the 'extra energy'.

Up until now, 'moving it fast enough' has meant increasing powder capacity to massive proportions, first the step up to 416 Rigby 'super magnum' capacity, and then a consideration of the 'super super magnum capacity' of the 505 Gibbs. Packing a 350-400 grain .510 bullet in a short Gibbs case or a 'case-mouth' headspace design with 120 grain water capacity would be intriguing. And I've seen that Capoward is pleased to have little spitzers in 458. There are others who still want the capability to hunt with 'flat' shooters.

Anyway, my immediate problem is deciding whether to load our next lot of 350 grain 416 Rigby to 2810 fps or 2750 fps with Rel-17. I've previously determined that 2780 fps might be an 'avoidance node' for powder and rifle (prone to spreading group size). 2800 fps risks going into unchartered waters should the rifle heat up excessively. 2750 fps is safe and mild and only risks expanded group size should it heat up excessively. So I'll probably 'load down' to 2750 fps, since I can't easily do the backup testing for 2850-2900fps. I've never flattened a primer in the 416 Rigby, a sticky case is only a dream. Just needs some opportunity. Sometimes international and African powder restrictions suck.

quote:

(Though that hartebeest heart picture that Photobucket censored this week was impressive from the little 7.5 lb. package in 338.)

Tanzan

Photobucket Censored??????

For real?

Tell me more--I have lot's of photos like that on PhotoBucket, Why, Reason?

M

I've edited photobucket and readded the image as well as edited page 101 so that it should again be showing.

quote:

Anyway, my immediate problem is deciding whether to load our next lot of 350 grain 416 Rigby to 2810 fps or 2750 fps with Rel-17. I've previously determined that 2780 fps might be an 'avoidance node' for powder and rifle (prone to spreading group size). 2800 fps risks going into unchartered waters should the rifle heat up excessively. 2750 fps is safe and mild and only risks expanded group size should it heat up excessively. So I'll probably 'load down' to 2750 fps, since I can't easily do the backup testing for 2850-2900fps. I've never flattened a primer in the 416 Rigby, a sticky case is only a dream. Just needs some opportunity. Sometimes international and African powder restrictions suck.

It's interesting how writing down some ideas allows one to rethink and clarify a position. I think I just did an aboutface on plans for loading our next lot of 416 Rigby. I'll aim for the 2810-2830 fps range with 350 TSX.

Why? Well, trajectory is only -7.5 to -8" low at 300 yards when sighted in to 2.0" at 100 yards. That's pretty flat for anyone, and especially in Africa where almost everything is flat and 'necessary' shots 300-400 yards are quite rare.
Muzzle energy is around 6250 ft lbs., always comforting.
Velocity is slow enough to encourage petal retention, for those of us still interested in such.
And when I considered the 'unknown area' of this rifle in the 2800-2900 fps range for a potentially hot, sunbaked rifle barrel and action, I realized that the similar cpacity 416 Weatherby has published loads up to the 2900 level. (Yes, the Weatherby has about a 6 grain practical capacity advantage, but at these relative sizes that is probably only about a 50fps theoretical advantage.) Such velocities in an overheated Rigby might not even flatten a primer, which would be a first for me with this calibre and rifle, but they are hardly going to trouble a CZ action or go much beyond 65000 PSI, if even reaching that.

So I would be loading the equivalent of 1 grain beyond our 2800fps loads. A pretty conservative increment.

Finally, if necessary, I have the tools in Africa to easily pull bullets and load down if accuracy doesn't follow suite.

If needing to pair this up with a 416 Ruger next year, we can always duplicate Rigby trajectory in 416 Ruger (=416 Rem capacity) by using a 300 grain bullet in the Ruger and then slip in 350's when tracking nyati/mbogo.

Pretty nice for the medium-big bore flat-shooting crowd.

Here are some photos of bullets from my trip to Africa last year. I did not recover many bullets nor check wound channels as we were a tad too busy hunting. I will share what I observed.




The two above pictures are of 300 Grain North Fork bullets. The top row are bullets removed from a sable, kudu, and wildebeest. The bottom row was from test media (wet newspaper and 2 by 6).

The performance on game was impressive. The four bullets retained nearly 95% of their weight. Muzzle velocity was 2475 FPS.

The test bullets and bullets from the game look very similar.




The bullet on the right was the only .474 500 grain North Fork Cup Point I recovered from a buffalo. The bullet on the left was from test media. Muzzle velocity was around 2100 FPS.

I was a little dissappointed in the shape of the bullet taken from the buffalo. Two positive notes, one the buffalo was dead, and two my first shot was a frontal shot with a Cup Point. When we field dressed it the bullet penetrated from the chest and stopped in the rumen causing much damage along the way.





The top and left bullets(top picture and bottom picture respectively) are 500 grain 474 Flat Nose bullets from the test box. The lower and right bullets (top picture and bottom picture respectively) are 500 grain .474 bullets removed from a buffalo. I was very suprised to see the nose bent on the NF flat nose solid. I am not sure what it hit but it was solid.

Tanzan

This thread makes for a good sounding board for ideas and concepts.


Mike

When in the field it is very difficult to take valuable shooting time to do forensics. Observations are important. Having tested so many bullets I am not as concerned today about the actual forensics, as I am to watching animal reactions to taking the bullet at the moment of impact. Trauma inflicted is easy to see once down, just how that animal takes that trauma from the bullets effect is a second or two, and important.

The 375/300 gr North Forks are "Photo Perfect", performed exactly as they should and not much to say about them.

Now the cup points. The bullet recovered was your first frontal shot? Did that bullet hit any bone that you know of? I would have guessed that bullet hit at an angle, hit bone, swiped the nose to one side. However, if that was your frontal, then I wonder if it caught any bone along the way somewhere?

I have been discussing the cup points with North Fork at length concerning the .500s and the new .474s we are working on for the B&Ms. Seems they are at a cross roads of sorts with two truly different bullet reactions, limited penetration solid, and expanding Non Con Cup Points. My opinion of this .474, and the .458 heavier Cup Points tested and used now, is that they are in the limited penetration solid category, and the Cup Points I had them do for the .500s and the upcoming .474s are "Expanding Cup Points", like the smaller 325 and 350 .458s we tested a few months ago. Personally for myself, I want the expanding Cup Points. These are rather unique, no blades to open, just a large copper mushroom, not so large as the soft points, but none the less a mushroom effect, and penetration far beyond a conventional, but nothing like a solid either. Trauma inflicted appears to be good. I think North Fork is working on something along these lines, and may offer both as a option, I am not sure. I know I have specified that the cup points for the .500s and .474s for the B&Ms be expanding cup points. I like the .458 Cup Points in 325 and 350 for my 458 B&Ms a lot. So that solves my issues in that category.


Mike, we need to revisit that solid. You are most likely correct, and I don't call your forensics into question, but that solid is bugging the hell out of me. At first glance this morning, they looked the same, but something was just bugging hell out of me. Looking at the space between the bottom band at the base, to the beginning of the first band from bottom up. The distance of non bearing surface does not look the same to me. It may be, but the distance in the photo, my eyes moving from one to the other, they look different. I don't have .474 Cups/Solids, I have 458 Cup/Solids. I took one each out, and side by side comparisons, the space non bearing surface space in the Cup Point is wider by 1 of those tiny bands. Both solid and cup have 15 tiny bands, I had to get the loop out to count, at first I thought the cup was one band short of the solid. Then it dawned on me, for both to weigh 450 grs, the cup with it's hollow point has to be a touch longer to make up the weight, so that space is one band wider on the cup than the solid. Do me a favor before I go insane and have to take a double dose of drugs this morning and compare those non bearing surface space for me. This is one of those "Obsessive Compulsive" moments---Don't keep me too long here in the dark!


If Mike finds it's indeed a solid then it looks a lot like the one I had in the T'Rex test! Of course that buffalo Mike shot was not far from being "Pre-Historic" so maybe there is something to my famous T'Rex test after all?

Hurry up now, I am not sure how much longer I can hold out!

Michael

I am almost certain the cup point is from my third shot which was a shoulder shot on the buffalo's right side.

I have measured and remeasured twenty times the distance between the base of the flatnose and the first drive band. It is a flatnose.

I thought it was a cup point when the skinner gave it to me. Then the next day the skinner gave me the cup point in the above picture. I knew I only used two and one was still in the rumen (I did look for it but could not find it).

I measured it with the dial caliper when I arrived home.

Mike
I figured you had sorted that out, it's just the photo was fooling me some. Perfect timing too, on this post, I was just reaching for those extra meds! LOL HHEH.

So that cup point, shoulder shot, maybe angled some? That would explain off to the one side I think, and hitting the bone.

As for the FPS, well, just validates the T"Rex test, got to put them all through the paces, and sometimes they hit things that make them bump! The nose looks like a solid. Just that base was bothering me, and it's got to be the photo and my eyes. I would say that the only thing on a buffalo that could do that to a solid is a ball joint somewhere! I have hit buffalo with copper solids and sometimes they hit some hard bone in there and can mess the nose up right!

I have lost bullets inside critters many times. I bought some years ago one of those hand held metal detectors, like used by TSA, and had envisioned taken it on trips to find bullets in critters. Problem is, even the hand held ones take up a lot of valuable space on international trips in the baggage! I need to revisit that and see if technology has made a smaller one? The one I had is dead anyway now, so I have zero!

Thanks Mike, good report.

Old T'Rex and Ball Joints can make a mess of a bullet!




Michael

quote:

Now why the silly insistence on 'flat' 300-yard capability?

416Tanzan,

You mentioned the "flat shooting" argument that we hear so often ... and let us take an anemic 7 mm Mauser load - a 175 gr Swift A-Frame bullet with a BC of .493 at 2,350 fps muzzle velocity with a scope sight height of 1.5"

Granted we can load at least another 125 fps higher, but we take a modest load for illustration purposes.

Let us assume our quarry is going to be Springbuck with a vital zone diameter of 8".

Let us be even more conservative and divide the vital zone diameter by 2 .... in other words we take a 50% contingency.

That makes the the vital zone radius to be equal to 2 inches, right?

This makes for very precise shooting and the results are as follows:-

Max PBR = 202 yds
Zero Range = 173 yds
Height @ 100 yds = 2.0 inches

So, at 202 yds the bullet will hit 2" lower than the line of sight, but still comfortably in the vital zone of 8-inch diameter. The bullet will fall through the line of sight at 173 yds, the zero point, to exit at -2" at 202 yds. You see, we do not need a bullet at 3,000 fps for this kind of hunting!

When the same bullet is fired through a 7 mm Rem Mag at 2,750 fps, which is 400 fps faster, we only gain 33 yds, as the bullet will hit 2" low at 235 yds.

Warrior

Warrior,

We're agreed that 2400fps is fine for shots inside the forest areas. 200 yards is about as far as one can ever 'thread a needle' in woodland. This is hunting at its best. And if I had a 585 Nyati I would be very happy keeping my shots within 'woodland' ranges.

It's those mbuga's, the openings in the forest that can stretch 200-500 yards, where shots 200-250 yards are fairly common, even 300 yards not so rare as to ignore. On the other hand, I've never needed to shoot over 400 yards in 200 or so animals in Africa, and over 300 yards can be counted on one hand. A couple of those were in wide-open sub-Saharan spaces, so we're only talking 1.5% in 'normal Africa'. Pretty marginal overall, but it is still part of my experience that I try to plan for. NorthAmerican shots across canyons and 500 yard pronghorns is not something that I know anything about, and windage and steady rests make me doubt the wisdom of such. So I end up planning for 'out to 300 yards', not over a -9" drop when sighted in at 2" high at a 100. About the distance of spine to heart in a hartebeest. Pretty good 416 range.

As my son says, the important thing is to have something to shoot at, something to hunt, the distances and getting close can be worked out later.

Just FYI the barrel strain tests we did for the double rifles is now loaded on the B&M website, complete with pdf documents you can download if you like.

Direct link

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Double-Rifles.html


Michael

It's been a little quite over here this week on terminals? Well, I have been using my time wisely, and have been doing mostly pressure trace work this week, and a few other things that have been taking a back seat to the terminals, but still need to be done Of all things however, I actually took the day off yesterday! No shooting at all, first day in about 3 weeks now. I did shoot today, but that was very early this morning doing pressure traces on the 9.3 B&M, which is another project that has gone very slack.

Waiting now on CEB to get their act together and start making some 4 band BBW #13s. Once we get everything 100% good to go on the BBW #13s and get them moving in some other calibers too. Then I am going to go to work on a non con to match up with them. In talking to CEB we are going to take a BBW #13 and very simply make a non con out of it. It will drop some weight from the solid--but will have the same bearing surface. I contend that the non con HP will shoot to the same POI at 50 yds, regardless of the weight drop for most rifles, most calibers. This has been the case for the most part with others that I have worked with, and believe it will be the same with this. If so, that would be excellent! We are not quite moving along as quickly as I would like, but I also don't have a lot of patience in these matters either.

Michael

In looking through some photos of bullets this morning for a post down on the lever guns I found something I don't remember posting here. The T'Rex test on the 570 CEB BBW #13 Copper Two band bullet? I went back to page 100 and did not see it anywhere. If I have posted this prior, I apologize for doing it twice. What I see in the T'Rex test of this bullet is that the nose profile is very good, it can take a beating and still maintain integrity of the nose and remain straight. Does not bend or veer at all.

When I first started doing the T'Rex test with the fiberboards, I only thought they were tough. Problem was they were not tough enough. I could not get any deformation of the bullets done in those tests. Moving to the concrete blocks business picked up. At first it was just a fun little test to do, but the further I go with it the more important I think it is to test construction of a bullet under some very hard conditions. I ask the bullet to get through two of these blocks straight, what it does after that is of little concern really. But if a solid can get through block 1 and continue straight to block #2 and pass through it straight, then by gosh that's pretty tough to do. All our good nose profile bullets we like will do this, North Fork, Barnes Banded, the CEBs and BBW#13s, the SSK Copper Solids I have used and so forth. In fact, I would not even approve that last run of CEBs before doing this to test the copper they were using. If it had been too soft, it might not have done well under extreme circumstances that one MIGHT run into in the field. Of course we know that sometimes the field can be much harder on bullets than any reasonable test we might can concoct. But we must continue to "endeavor to persevere".

I like the CEB BBW #13, the profile seems to hammer hard and maintain!









Surely I posted this? If not I can't believe that I did not?

Michael

Yep you posted it back on page 97...you might want to post this on your DR thread though as I'm sure that not everyone participating in that thread has read the entire 102+ pages of this thread.

Jim

Thanks Jim! I should have asked you first, I wonder if it's a sign of things to come when one starts repeating themselves?

Hmmmmm????????

M

quote:

I wonder if it's a sign of things to come when one starts repeating themselves?

Hopefully not!!!!

I posted the other day about shooting a deer with a 416 Rem Mag with a SSK 330 non con bullet. The trauma this bullet did inside was massive. Yesterday I got the chance to shoot another deer but this time with a 50 B&M and the 350 grain non con brass hollow point. The deer was about 100 yards away and quartering to me. Bullet hit right on the back edge of the shoulder and exited near the back of the ribs. This deer jumped straight up in the air and flopped about 10 yds away. No it didn't jump that far but it wasn't able to run. When I skinned it I saw several holes from the petals in a big circle around the exit hole. Now I did not see this on the other deer I shot but knew the petals had blown. This deer had 5 of the six petals exit in a circle maybe 10 to 12 inches in diameter. This bullet did just what Michael's tests shows it would do. I telling you this brass non con bullet is the meanest wildest bullet I have ever shot. Got to get some made for all the big doubles!!!!!

Sam

Re: Non-cons ... what a new ball game they are. A few from an Australian forum are playing with a locally produced 300gr 45cal. They are simply a totally new way at looking at big-bores ...

Here's a few images collected from various testers ...

There's a blemish in the ogive that has now been sorted out.


A 300gr "Mono-pex" vs a 400gr Woodleigh ... I've been testing in the 458AccRel, but intend it for the 458B&M exclusively. Blemish is more obvious here ... but signifies the depth of the hex hollow-point.


My test material ... damn it Michael ... how you've done this has earnt my respect ... just trying to do a shadow of your work is damn hard! First test gave approx 43cm or 16" of penetration.


The collected projectile ... started at 300gr weight, finished at 247gr ... petals blown off somewhere in the phonebooks. Couldn't Chrony unfortunately ... I shot it awhile back!


Shot by another tester ... 100m standing post from a 458Lott. Most obvious reaction (as was mine) ... where'd the recoil go? These were being pushed at high 2500s.


From a tester using in a 45/70.


First game that fell to the 45/70 ... front on, petals made the rear of the chest cavity, main body exited at rear.


Ran this test today using laminated sheets as witness cards. Petals made it to about 16cm depth. Main body was again recovered at 246gr and about 17" total penetration ... but side on. Fragments weigh about 8-10gr ... we discussed initially having a 4 petal design ... I think we perhaps should have gone with it to increase the mass of the fragments.


At this depth you can really see how this one decided to lay to the side.


Buy your good woman some flowers Micheal ... I feel she needs DESERVES them after all your hiding in the man cave.

Cheers...
Con

After seeing how the non con's perform I don't know why you would need a conventional lead cored softpoint.

Sam

Sam and Con

Before I discovered how good the brass non conventionals were I was using the copper non cons. These were great, but the petals always shear within the wound cavity and not in a pattern like the brass does. Since the brass is more brittle the blades or petals shear easy and in a consistent manner. Almost all of them in the test medium shear at 2-3 inches, and the 6 blades move away from center in a star pattern. Penetration was incredible with these blades, going from the point of shearing to 7-9 inches-actual penetration being at least 5-6 inches in the test medium, I have had 38 specials not penetrate that deep!!!!

Moving away from center with this sort of penetration had to be devastating! I figured that the bullet would actually shear just about the time in entered the body cavity, exploding the blades away from center and tearing at organ tissue in six different directions, while the remaining slug continued to penetrate--straight. Seems I was pretty close on this one.

Here is some of the test work on these exact bullets.





As you can see on the 4 inch witness card the star pattern as the blades have sheared at 2-3 inches and moving outward away from center.





Devastating, and no shortage of penetration. Penetration increases after the blade shear.

Here is Sams Deer and showing some of the petals or blades exiting the deer body. Amazing!






Michael

Hey Con

How about that buddy, half a world away, we are getting the same results?

Excellent!!!!!!!!!!

I don't think your sambars are going to survive a 458 caliber brass non con!

Oh, and spread the news "Down Under"--My boy Daryl Lenkic is working on getting his firearms dealers license. Once he gets that he is going to be importing all the B&M rifles, brass, bullets the works and will have rifles on hand, ready to go! JUST FYI! I think some of your chaps are in bad need of some Super Short rifles!

Michael