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Congrats on your improved health The lions just felt a shudder run up their spines. Will you be hunting them with carnivoire bullets? Carnivoires are the king of the jungle. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Ulrik This is excellent news, we are all glad to hear you are getting there! Sounds like your sight is about even with mine now, but probably a little better than mine!  OK, now about this lion! Down here on big bores, it's not just a "Lion Hunt" you know! It's about, what rifle, what bullet, what load, and, and and..............? I have a "Lion Bullet" you know? HEH HEH HEH........ CARNIVORE! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Bubba Squatch--  That's good! .620 Caliber Carnivore! Whew! Jesus! We can do it buddy! We know the formula! You know, everything has a formula, and we have it! But, it's top secret, have to kill you, then kill myself sorta thing you know! I don't know the formula! I know about the formula! Exact formula, I don't know, but I don't need to know, but someone else knows! Can't tell you that either! HEH....... I'm too ignorant, I don't know what 7075T65 is? Don't tell me, I dont' want to know, as long as you know, that's good enough for me! Some things I just don't need to know! I already "Know" too Much! LOL.................. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Bubba Squatch must be hanging around with Boom Stick because the 707 is aluminum. Sam | |||
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Sam Oh Christ, Boom has done Ruined Bubba Squatch Now! He may be too far gone at this point if he wants Aluminum .620s! As they say around here, "He's Ruint"  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 Hey they would be fun to test and try heavier tin as well. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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How about a tipped raptor design for 4,000 fps out of your overkill/600 NE? Maybe make the tip out of copper or brass. That should add about 100 grains. Tip for penetration and aluminum as the splatter. Metal talons anyone? I'd love to see a big bore aluminum raptor/carnivoire/BBW13 flat nose hit a water jug at 4,000 fps on video.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The water in that jug would be so atomized it would not even hit the ground, it would be just a small cloud that floated away.  Make sure you get it on video....  Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Michael, Boomy dint Ruin me. I worked as a machinist/toolmaker for 17 years. I know a little about metals. 7075T6 is a heat treated Aluminum that has high tensile strength but is on the brittle side, if Aluminum can be considered brittle. I was thinking a bullet the same oal as the NonCon just made of Aluminum, or maybe Aluminum Bronze-a free machining alloy that is very temperature stable dimensionally. Something in the 500gr neighborhood I think. Velocity.....Whatever I can tolerate without splitting a case. Phatman..We WILL get it on Video! Jeffe has captured me shooting the 4bore and my Overkill with training loads(900gr@2150). This should be spectacular! Bubba 'Squatch We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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hahahaha - f... I have missed you guys...  Well M - dont know if its possible to have some 375 (embarrassed to say I will use such a small bore this time ) Carnivore bullets in time??? Doubt it actually, have planned on either good ol Nosler Partition or Nosler Accubond.. - any comments from you guys out there???BUT IF some Carnivore could be here in a week or so, THEN...... Ulrik | |||
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Ulrik 375---      Lion deserves better than that! Deserves more than that! Shame! No way on 375 Carnivores--Not even in experimental yet! Busy with Raptors! I would use a 375 230 ESP Raptor---but I won't, cause I don't do 375 anything, not even the 375 B&M. But that would be the bullet for sure! 375, shame! Hey boys, working on ESP Raptors today, tomorrow, and for the foreseeable future! On the range for the next few days! New 475 B&M stainless came in today. Strain gage tomorrow, next week Pressure Trace Load Data, along with Raptor terminals until completed. Probably shooting every single day for some time to come. Lot's of work to do. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Dont't forget to feed the peanut gallery as you go! We can't take waiting for a single glob of data...bunch of demanding folks you know. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim Working on reports and photos now. Probably won't finish tonight, but I might be able to start posting some in the morning. It's slow going. A heads up, I am starting at the bottom and working my way up. Today I tested the .224 40gr ESP Raptor. Two cartridges. Tomorrow I hope to do the .224 55 gr ESP Raptor, same methods, two cartridges. Lot's of loading, and time consuming. Especially digging for those tiny blades, on hands and knees! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You remember, Michael, the 375 is that calibre that is BIGGER than the 9.3mm. It's a great antelope gun. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Bull%&it Tanz--9 is bigger than 3 where I come from! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You will be rewarded greatly in the happy hunting growing Michael. Those 40 grainers must be going at lightning speeds! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Michael, we need to get you a metal detector. That 40 grain raptor in a 22 hornet would be the bees knees! Deer with a 22 raptor in a 22 hornet? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The peanut gallery thank's you Sir!! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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+1 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Dare I mention on a Big Bore forum that I just picked up my Anschutz 22Hornet and can't wait for the 40gr Raptors to hit the market! I would like to see a .257 bullet in the 60-75gr range for use in a 25-20WCF too! Bubba 'Squatch We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Spilled coffee all over.. hahaha | |||
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OK lot's of work going on here and already running behind schedule! As stated above, I completed terminal test work on the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor yesterday. My part in the testing of these new bullets is "terminals" only. Since there are so many of these in all calibers, then I am only doing a part of the test, the terminals. Dan and company, along with Sam will be doing accuracy, BC tests, long range tests and stability tests with all of them before they are approved for production. My responsibility, Terminals Only. These rat calibers I will be testing at 48 yards impact, long as I can get the rifle half way sighted in with them. The exact distance between the two chronographs is NOT 48 yards, but 40 Yards even. Bear this in mind. I am testing the .224s in two rifles, two cartridges. 223 Remington in a big heavy S&W AR 15 Target rifle I bought from a chap a few years ago. It is incredibly accurate, and easy to shoot. Even for me. Twist rate is 1:9 for the S&W. The other cartridge is 223 WSSM, Winchester M70 Ultimate, 22 inch barrel. I THINK???? it's 1:9 twist, but not 100% sure of that--Please if anyone knows for sure on this, or can find out while I am doing the test work, it would be nice to know, so yes regular guys, get on this mission for me, and while you are at it, get me the twist rate for a Win M70 25 WSSM also, that is next after the 55 ESP Raptor. Tests are done in this order Raptor NonCon HP No Tip Raptor NonCon HP With Talon Tip Raptor Solid First, report the 223 Remington, 40 gr ESP Raptor. Big Bores for Rats! HEH......    Below this gave good trauma, blades sheared at 2 inches and stayed closer to center. As you can see from the 3 inch witness card as well.   This came as a surprise to me, with the Talon Tip added the blades sheared at 1 inch and dispersed like a normal big bore NonCon, star pattern further away from center. Check the Witness card again at 3 inches. Something else is that the velocity was higher, and more consistent with the tip added, than without the tip! ??   As a solid the little Raptor performed incredibly well, even at velocity. However, velocity was beginning to take it's toll on the nose! Regardless it drove true and straight. Would be excellent for parting shots at game not brought immediately down, could prevent a loss of game animal in the end!   Continued; Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Next let's look at the 223 WSSM.  With no tip, as a normal NonCon the extra velocity bought a bit more penetration. Trauma was good, but not as extensive, or maybe as WIDE, as with the tip once again.   Added the tip, again velocity was higher, along with more consistency in the load?? Once again, shear occurred at 1 inch, large star pattern at 3 inches. Lot's of trauma. In fact, the two bullets together each side at 3-4 inches looked like a big bore bullet trauma!   The 40 Raptor as a solid at this velocity started to suffer some, as the nose deformed even more. They went straight to 21 inches, lost stability at that, found at 23 inches sideways. Velocity not your best friend here. But this was expected as well.  This concludes my portion of the work on the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor. I found at 50 yards stability in both rifles I was shooting, I cannot comment on accuracy except with the S&W AR in 223 Remingtion, where I did shoot a 3 shot group at 50, all in a hole. I did not have enough left over to work with after getting the loads right, and doing the terminals to test No Tip, Tipped, and Solid POIs. I will leave initial work in these areas to Dan and Sam. I will be working on several things today and tomorrow, namely one of them will be the .224 55 gr ESP Raptor. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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In addition I want to beg forgiveness of all Big Bore devotes for posting small bore and medium bore terminals on this thread, along with begging forgiveness from our gracious and patient moderator GeorgeS. I hope this does not cause conflict or issues as with the work load I have currently, I really don't have the time to start and keep up with threads in several different areas, although some of these posts most certainly belong in another area. I would appreciate it if some of you would like to take these to the appropriate areas of interest however, and work a thread there as well. For my part if allowed, it's so much easier for me to keep up with and post this on one thread. If forgiven I will be working as hard as I can to get to at least the medium bores and the Raptors are for sure headed to the big bores, + 375. When Sam returns after next week we will be testing the .375 230 ESP Raptor, and hopefully Dan and company is working on 416 through .510 the next week or so. What is being done with these rat calibers will most certainly reflect as we get to the larger calibers. So please please, if you can, bear with me until I get to that. Thanks! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Doc M, Do you ever sleep? Don't make us come over there and "medicate" ya. It might get expensive.  Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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Doc M, Its really no supprize that the plastic tiped ones are performing better, its the hydraulic effect working again. Plastic is a liquid in a static form. You allied energy to it and it flowed. Cheers, John Give me COFFEE and nobody gets hurt | |||
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IMO, you are simply expanding the knowledge envelope about the #13 design and materials. In a similar manner as the variations in lower big bore velocity taught about performance. The only way to see what will happen "if" is to try the "if". It's apparent that CEB sees a market for applying this knowledge to the rat calibers, so be it. As you point out, others will be doing the development work to create an actual product and this site will be continuing the big bore work. Knowledge should feed back and forth between the two areas of interest. One real benefit will be that the #13 will become known by a wider group of people; purchase of the rat calibers by those people will help keep CEB and NF in business. I wish S&H was more active. They did some really interesting work in their designs. Availability of the #13 design will make for better NA hunting. I see many benefits and no down side to what is happening. Naturally I look for a "return" to the big bores once this quick look at #13 performance in the rat calibers is over. As for your efforts, as the song goes, once you stop birthing, you start dying. Looks like you're going to live a long time!  | |||
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Great work Michael! Wow! 27" penetration from a 40 grain bullet! Glad to see it has performed as hoped. Interesting to get a choice of wound channel with tip or no tip. Will there be mid and low velocity tests?
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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At some point, yes. Basically doing 223 Rem and 223 WSSM I ran out of my allotment. On some of the calibers I will get to low end velocity, some are going to have to wait until I get enough to do so. Right now I have a 50 bullet allotment to do terminals, Sam 50 for his work, and CEB 50 for theirs for initial tests. I am getting as much in on terminals as I can with that right now. Some cases, like this, I had to do some load data to get to where I wanted to be with them and get POI at 50. So that quickly ate up my allotment. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Great. Did not know the 40 grain raptors were as rare as hens teeth at the moment. We are all grateful to see the testing and your hard work. A huge thank you. I know you are not a rat bore guy but what do you think of the smallest of mice bore bullet performance? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Taking a 5 minute break right now. Boom, it's pretty impressive in the test medium to be honest, when taking into account what it is. Benchmark bullet is a 62 gr Barnes TSX, it penetrates 10 inches in this test medium, and this little left over 19 gr BBW#13 is making 8-11 inches, depending on velocity. Much more trauma inflicted by the Raptor. What to use it for? Whatever you would use for a 40 gr 223, only this will out perform much bigger bullets in 223. Thinking of coyotes, things like that, wow! Turn it around to the solid end, no fur damage at all! In fact, even the HP would not damage any fur at all I would think! Tip or No tip. Best of all worlds this bullet is. I intend to complete the work on 55 gr Raptor today. Loading 223 WSSMs now. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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My guess is that the 55 grain raptor will do better at lower velocity petal sheer due to more weight behind it. For a 22 expanding maximum damage bullet I don't know if more penetration is needed unless you wanted a pass through on a deer size game. All eyes on accuracy tests. My guess is the 55 should be more accurate with more bore riding shaft lengths. There is virtually no bore rider area on the 40 grain version. Curious about stability with different twist barrels with the tip attached on the longer raptors. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Anyone ever hear of a Texas heart shot on a deer with a 22 before? Looks like you can with the flat point. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I recently came accross an article where a person hunting African plains game with a 308 passed up a shot on a great buff because the PH felt the caliber was too small. Leaving aside an opinion on that comment, if he was carrying Raptors I'd say, take the shot. Espically if he was carrying tip on top and solids in the magazine. | |||
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Whoa now Just because they are very good bullets, lets not start thinking they are magic and taking foolish shots--you can throw a freight train at something but if you dont hit it correctly it will just be a wound. Technology still hasnt made up for accurate shooting and good hunting ethics. SSR | |||
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This is very true. On the flip side...the .333 Jeffery, and to some extent .318 Westley Richards, when loaded with proper jacket thickness C&C bullets had a reputation for being very deadly on Cape buffalo. Today however I'm not sure if they would even be legal for use against DG in most African countries. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim, you are right of course. You might add the 338 WM. It, too, kills buffalo Dead-Right-There, when placed correctly. In many ways, the 338WM, 9.3x62, and 375HH can be thought of as 'three sisters', in the same way that the 270, 280, 30-06 are 'three sisters' when it comes to mule-deer and elk. However, the 375HH is only legal calibre in Tanzania for buffalo. At least the 375HH can be handloaded for an extra 500-600 ft lbs. over the 338WM. That is not a lot of difference, but a line had to be drawn somewhere. And my thinking is that the best calibre for buffalo is the biggest/most-powerful calibre that one can put their hands on at any one time. If one thinks of diameter+energy levels, there is a fairly linear progression from 7-08 to 30-06 to 338WM to 375HH to 416Rigby(handloaded) to 460Weatherby to 505Gibbs/500Jeffrey (handloaded), with many many variations that blur the discrete levels. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I really don't understand your response. I have not advocated that any bullet will make up for bad bullet placement. If you read my past posts, you'll find: "The first commandment in hunting is bullet placement and the second, bullet performance, is like unto it. On these two commandments lie all the rest of the laws of hunting." With the #13 bullet performance, a properly placed 308 will do the job on a buff. I don't advocate it as it is not legal in any African country, but it will do the job. | |||
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I agree with the caveat added. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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