quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
How about this as an idea for some increased penetration for the Non-Cons.

We have established that the right combination of meplat size and ogive angle provide the best penetration (i.e. as per BBW#13 solids).

However, when the #13 Non-Con shears its petals, it no longer has that ideal shape and therefore is not going to penetrate as far as it could compared to a correctly shaped bullet with weight eqivalent to the rear section of the Non-Con.

That being the case, why can't we design the bullet so that when the petals shear, the remaining section's nose shape more closely approximates the #13 Nose shape? This could perhaps be achieved by a deeper and angled undercut, so that when the petals shear, there remains an angled nose, rather than a full calibre flat nose.

What say you?

MFS

quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
As I see it, the Non-Con will continue to do the same damage as it did before, the difference being that once the petals have sheared off, the remaining body will penetrate deeper.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I made some a long time ago for Michael to test. They were ugly bullets that had a #13 nose and a #13 angle cut at the bottom of the hollow. The nose was supposed to blow and leave a #13 solid to penetrate. Is this what you are talking about. Never tested just too ugly and the non con penetrates just fine.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Esskay:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I made some a long time ago for Michael to test. They were ugly bullets that had a #13 nose and a #13 angle cut at the bottom of the hollow. The nose was supposed to blow and leave a #13 solid to penetrate. Is this what you are talking about. Never tested just too ugly and the non con penetrates just fine.

Sam

Hehehe

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

“ I found one of my 30/30s yesterday! It was one of the old Lawmen 16 inch guns I had messed with years ago. Wonderful little thing it is, always really liked those little 16 inch guns. California Assault rifle I would think!.. Micheal “

quote:

‘ Seems Dan will make some copper ones for the communist zone er um I mean Condor zone out here in Cali. Boom Stick …”

quote:

§355. Ammunition Authorized for Taking Big Game and Nongame Birds and Nongame Mammals in Condor Range.
In addition to those conditions provided for in sections 353 and 475, only centerfire rifle, centerfire pistol, muzzleloading, shotgun slug, and rimfire ammunition using projectiles certified pursuant to this section as containing no lead (as defined by subsection 353(h)) shall be used for the taking of big game and nongame birds and nongame mammals in condor range (see subsection 353(h)).
· (a) Ammunition Certification Process. Any person or manufacturer of ammunition or projectiles wishing to have their ammunition or projectiles certified for hunting big game or nongame birds and nongame mammals in condor range shall submit the information identified in subsections (b)(1)-(5) to the California Department of Fish and Game, Wildlife Programs Branch, Sacramento. The Department shall accept or reject the request within 60 days of receipt. The ammunition or projectiles whose request has been accepted will be added to the list entitled “Certified ammunition and projectiles for hunting big game and nongame birds and nongame mammals in condor range” maintained by the Department.
· (b) Information required for consideration of certification:
o (1) Name of Manufacturer of ammunition or projectile, address, and contact information.
o (2) For ammunition certifications, information shall specify as to caliber, cartridge designation, and projectile. Projectile specifications shall include unique identifying characteristics and percent content of lead by weight.
o (3) For projectile certifications, information shall specify as to unique identifying characteristics and percent content of lead by weight.
o (4) Signed statement verifying that all information provided is accurate.
o (5) Digital color image of projectile or ammunition.
· (c) The Department shall determine, based on information supplied, if the projectile contains less than the percent lead content by weight as defined in 353(h).
· (d) The Department shall update the list of certified ammunition and projectiles no less than once annually and make it available to hunters.
· (e) The Department shall decertify and remove from the list any projectiles or ammunition if information is received that it does not meet the standards set forth in subsection (b) within 60 days of receipt

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I made some a long time ago for Michael to test. They were ugly bullets that had a #13 nose and a #13 angle cut at the bottom of the hollow. The nose was supposed to blow and leave a #13 solid to penetrate. Is this what you are talking about. Never tested just too ugly and the non con penetrates just fine.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
As I see it, the Non-Con will continue to do the same damage as it did before, the difference being that once the petals have sheared off, the remaining body will penetrate deeper.

quote:

Originally posted by MeplatFS:
Testing will bear out the results I guess.
MFS

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am waiting for someone to seat a 209 in the nose for explosive penetration!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well I am pretty much useless for the rest of today! Just returned from getting a load of test medium! I wore out before I got to 5000 lbs! I managed to get 3600 lbs, and told them I had all I wanted for today!!!!! I have it backed up to the back door on the range, that's where it will stay until tomorrow! Then I will unpack in the morning! I suppose 5000 lbs was a little ambitious! 3600 will do for awhile, I hope!

Whew!
Later
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:


A photo says it all! The 30/30 just changed it's spots!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I am not sure if this is the "Best" or the "Wildest" that I saved for the last of yesterdays test work?

Let me introduce you to The CEB BBW#13 "Switcheroo"! For lack of a better term for right now. This is something our very own Boomy must take credit for, another one of his WILD ASS ideas, that happens to be pretty spiffy! Now for the life of me I can't figure why Dan did these in a useless rat caliber like .308, but this is what I got, so I had to work with it. It is a 130 gr BBW#13 Solid on one end, and a NonCon HP on the other.




Now guys, I have mentioned this to you about the "Switcheroo" before, but I have to go over this again with you. Now I am not considered a "Cheap Bastard" or even frugal. However, one does have to take into account the Economic impact of any service, or product. This has to be a top consideration. Now I am not in this bullet business, so that has no bearing, but I know Shooters and Gun folks very well, and you know, I hate to say this, but you bastards are CHEAP! I know this from years of experience with you! Ever sit at a gun show behind the table? If so, you know what I mean!

Now, in thinking this "Switcheroo" through, it is an amazing concept, a BBW#13 Solid on one side, A NonCon HP on the other, you just turn it around, and load it for what you need at the time. One bullet, does all. As we all know, the NonCon HP version costs a few more dollars per box than the solid, it takes a little more work to get a NonCon HP. Naturally. So to use the Switcheroo as a solid just did not make good sense to me, economically. Why shoot a NonCon cost bullet as a cheaper Solid? Well I did come up with a couple of things to the favor of good economics. One, less foot print on you bullet shelves, you would no longer need multiple boxes of Solids and NonCons, you could get by with one box that does it all. In some cases, that could be very important. Another is shipping things out of country, again, would not have to do Solids and NonCons and would save half the shipping and aggravation, and that could very well make up for the extra cost. So that is a big positive and might just pay for itself.

But what about normal guys, it just don't pan out I think. So I put some more thought into this and I really did come up with the most excellent solutions to this problem of economics that gives you "DOUBLE BANG FOR THE SAME DOLLAR!"

YES--You heard me correctly! Now you can have DOUBLE BANG for the same dollar! Here is how you do it!

First load the bullet as a SOLID. Shoot it, RECOVER IT, and turn it around then shoot it as a NonCon Hollow Point the second time around!

Now I do admit there are some flaws to be sorted out, such as proper recovery after the first shot, but I leave that to each individual to sort out! In other words, I figured it out for you, but you have to do something, after all it's you that is cheap to begin with!

Obviously I would not leave you totally out in the cold on this concept, so Sam and I put it to the test to see how it would work!



I wanted a good test for this, so I picked a 308 rat rifle I had not had in my hands in 6 years, like I said not much call for that sort of thing here. The scope had 6 years of dust on the lens, you could not even see out of it, so Sam had to give that a cleaning. We also was able to use Sam's 300 Winchester for the second round of tests with the bullet.

We loaded of course solid end first and tested both rifles with the solids!



Then turned right around to test the "Double Bang For the Buck" theory!



And here we go!









Same 4 bullets in each, 308 and 300.

A note about the solid end. Penetration was extreme for a 130 gr rat caliber. In each cartridge, 40-42 inches dead straight, then some started turning a bit at the end of penetration, a couple of them found sideways at the end, some found dead straight ahead.

On the NonCon HP end a phenomena occurred that does not happen with the straight NonCon HP and that was more velocity gave less overall penetration? Regardless of that it was more than enough for any rat type rifle, and more than any conventional rat bullet can come to. Below I thought it was of note to show you the massive trauma inflicted upon the 2 inch witness cards. A tremendous amount of trauma inflicted by the 300 Winchester load.






So there you go boys! You see the results, the tests were successful on every count, the solid worked great as a solid, the NonCon worked great as a NonCon, I gave you an economical feasible solution for doubling your bang for the dollar, I can no longer see any downsides to this bullet! And for those of you that want a long range rat caliber bullet, as you notice the NonCon end is shorter than the Solid end, there is a reason for that, Sam and I finally figured Dan is pretty sharp on this, the NonCon end is shorter so you can add a high BC tip to it, fit in the magazine and rock and roll! The Solid portion would also serve as a Boat Tail, even increasing that BC. Of course, used as a solid, you have the famous "Hollow Base" design we discovered as well! Good lord, what a bullet!

HEH HEH HEH.....

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so, what will they do in a 30-06? ..