RobH

Wonderful and detailed post my friend! Excellent information and loading tech! Excellent reports on everything, including the speed goat! That's some incredible trauma inflicted!!! I spoke with Dan about that this morning, he was telling me about it.

quote:

Simply amazing damage. This was probably about 8 to 10 inches of penetration and the expansion, trauma and blood loss was unlike anything I have seen hunting.

This is pretty much the same story I heard in June, from everyone, PH's, Owners, Trackers, Skinners, everyone, including myself.

Sam's right, trauma inflicted by the blades/petals is real. Seems it's like a tiny bomb explodes inside, end of story!

Not much time, you know it's dark here, and I am headed for the roost! But I had to relate another "Deer Murdering" reported to me just now by one of my close friends here. My buddy here shot a big 8 point this afternoon at 150 yards with his Winchester M70 223 WSSM. I had loaded some 55 gr BBW#13 NonCons for him at 3700 fps. It's another "Bang Flop" story. Dropped to the shot, never moved. Shot was behind the shoulder going through lungs. Seems there was about a 2 inch diameter hole through and through, everything in between totally destroyed, everything exploded inside, including heart. John told me the 8 point hit the dirt so quick that when he got to him his front legs did not fall as quick as his head and both front legs were up in his antlers! I reckon he dropped so quick his head fell faster than his legs! LOL............ He said it was incredible trauma inflicted. Stone cold before he could hit the dirt.

Excellent job to all!

Good Night!
Michael

RobH

One more thing before I go, I am happy you no longer lurk and decided to join the crowd, this is a fine bunch of chaps here, we are happy to count you along with!

Michael

That is an outstanding post.
Lots of great information there.
Nice Pronghorn

Cheers, John

Great report Rob. Welcome to the best thread on the forum!

Michael,

Are the .458 Raptor bullets available, or will they be, in a couple of weeks when my .458B&M Winchester/SSK conversion is ready?

And have you yet tried the new powder Carl referred to you? If so, your impressions? It sure boosted my Lott performance with the #13.

From talking to Dan it seems he wants to get out the sub 375 bullets then go larger
It may be a couple months before the large bores but you can load the 458 noncon bullets designed for the lever action with tips attached to feed from the magazine till then.
There are two weight non con lever action weights avaliable now. Naturally if you want both flat and hollow on the same bullet you will need to wait a bit.

RobH,
Enjoyed your commentary. Welcome!
Max

From the last row in the peanut gallery...the 1st Non Con in India..a rat caliber though.

DocM, you particularly will enjoy this. Way back in the day, I knew someone in India who had a 22 Savage double rifle, with hammers. A lovely svelte little thing that just looked so sexy to my teenage eyes. Dont remember who it was made by. I "almost" convinced my father to buy it. Anyway, got to know the guy who owned it..and a few days later he tells me he had a slight problem with the rifle. "Ammo is difficult to get here, so I asked my wife's cousin's brother in law who has a lathe shop to make me some copper bullets. I bought some .303 cartridges from someone in the Police, and changed the primer on the 22, and filled the case with those little sticks in the 303 case, and then pushed the bullet in." "OMG, what happened?" "Well, I saw a nice cheetal (axis deer) stag and shot it. What happened was that the right barrel hammer went flying past me, making a bit of a hole in my ear and the two barrels now are little bit not together in the front.

I went back to shooting with Dad's Farqy, a 450/400 31/4", 60 grns Cordite, 400 grn bullet. Missed some, but never had to shoot anything twice

Hello Gentlemen

I'm a friend of Michael's from Australia and have been following the progress of both his B&M rifles and his projectiles closely. I own a .50 B&M which I recently used to good effect in Africa against Cape buffalo and hippo. I also recently imported two new B&M rifles (.475 B&M Super Short and .458 B&M Semi-Autio, albeit in a bolt action rifle) as well as a selection of #13 Non-Cons in .500, .474, .458 and .416 calibres.

I was somewhat disappointed to read about the reduced penetration of the short-nosed projectiles, as my .458 bullets are short nosed. Then I remembered that all my projectiles are Non-Cons, not solids, so not an issue.

I am hoping to start importing CEB bullets for re-sale in Australia soon as I am a great believer in Michael's work, and share his compact rifle philosophy. Both my .475 and .458 B&M's have 16" barrels.

My only gripe with Michael is that he is just too damn prolific. Just when I thought I had gotten from him the best you can get, he is off testing several other things that are even better. I can't keep up.

You guys are also too prolific with your posts. I came up with a good name for the double ended projectiles ('Minotaurs') only to find out that I had been left behind and that they were already called Raptors!

Having visited Michael at 'The Compound' in SC in 2009 and spent some time with him on the range, I have total confidence in his findings. If Michael says it's so, that's good enough for me, because I know that he only makes statements that he can back up with ample test evidence. Keep up the good work, Michael.

Wow...it's rare that I get to be the first to say, "Welcome to the forum MeplatFS!"

plus one, MeplatFS!

quote:

I am hoping to start importing CEB bullets for re-sale in Australia soon as I am a great believer in Michael's work, and share his compact rifle philosophy. Both my .475 and .458 B&M's have 16" barrels.

Interesting, what sort of price range Meplat? Not a 100-150% markup like the rest of Aus importers hopefully

Sorry for the prolificness I tend to be OCD when it comes to gun stuff.
Welcome to the board. Another lurker turned poster lol.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I tend to be OCD when it comes to gun stuff.
.

Your not the only one...LOL
Welcome MeplatFS

Cheers, John

Thanks for the welcome guys. It's good to mix ideas with like-minded individuals.

Funny thing is, just a few short years ago, I didn't even think that I really needed any big bore rifles. But once I made the decision that to go to Africa to hunt, a whole new world opened up and now I have as many rifles over .30 cal as below it, with the biggest bore being my .50 B&M.

Karl, in reply to your question, I'm unsure of the cost of the CEBs. Freight is a major cost to get stuff from the US to Australia and bullets are heavy. I recently paid over A$1000 freight to import 88lbs worth of gear (and that was when our $ was worth more than yours!). The other factor is the price point that the market will bear (so to speak) as we don't have anywhere near the volume of shooters and hunters that the US does, and not much large game within Australia (water buffalo are really the only ones that really require big bores).

Regards

MFS

Thanks for the warm welcome! I have to say, I love these bullets and I agree Michael-best thread on the site.

First a funny story. When I finally dropped that Pronghorn I ran over to it and immediately went to work looking at wound channels, tissue damage, etc. I was really excited and focused on the animal. After about 5 minutes of poking at wounds, looking for petals and trying to figure out what wound went with what shot, my dad told me to look behind me. Not quite sure what to expect, I slowly turned around and 10 yards behind me I found I had a large group of spectators who had shown up to observe!

When shot, there was not a cow within 400 yards!

Anyway, here is one more photo.


Mine of course is the one on the far left. As I said, I shot mine in the neck at 110 yards with a 375 HH. Also note the pronghorn next to mine (immediately to my right). My brother-in-law shot that pronghorn from about 220 yards. His first shot hit lungs. When we approached it it was down, but not out (yet). He shot it in the neck to finish it. He took the shot at about 3 yards with factory loaded .243 Winchester, Federal Premium Barnes TSX (not sure about the weight, perhaps 90 grains). I know Michael, a rat cartridge and off topic for this thread-but bear with me!

This of course finished the animal off. But here is basically a point blank shot with a good bullet, and the entry and exit hole was perhaps .5 inches in size. The NonCon (admittedly in a larger caliber and heavier weight-but at a longer distance) did vastly more damage!

I hate cows except when I'm eating them. They sure can ruin a stalk. Why is it that they always angle in front of you even if they are way off to the side.

Hey, got to thinking, do I get credit for the first NonCon kill in Wyoming??

If so, first of many NonCon kills in Wyoming once these guys take off!

Might be the first overkill! Not many people hunt pronghorn with a 375. Hope you weren't planning on mounting that one. Hey I deer hunt with a 577 so I understand.

MeplatFS

Hey Buddy! I see you have received the royal welcome from many of our regulars. I am pleased to have you here, and look forward to your contributions, as you have many talents in which can give great assistance in areas of which I have no talents! Which are many!

Please never hesitate to join in. This thread has attracted the very best of folks. Many of which I call "Friend", many of which make considerable contributions to shooting that are beyond measure, and in general, just a fine group of chaps! We never stand still, there is no doubt about it. I am quite sure this very well may be the largest, and most prolific "Bullet Think Tank" that has ever existed. Some bullet manufactures have joined us and are paying attention, Cutting Edge and North Fork, both supporters of superior performance. But most made up of shooters and hunters that know what we need in the field and our goal is to be more successful in the field. Unlike normal "think tanks" we have no accountants here making the decisions of what we must use in the field, basing decisions on $$ signs, not on performance. We are in control of our own decisions here, we fall on the side of performance first and foremost, and always, and bring it together for everyone that pays attention. That is our intention!

Prolific! For sure, don't get behind a week can be a long time and a lot of catching up! Or even, missing out in some cases. The last couple of weeks have been hectic, for sure, and more to come. It appears there will be all manner of ESP Raptors to start work with next week, in all sorts of calibers! I have .474 BBW#13 NonCons, and North Forks to test as well. And much more I can't even remember off hand.

Welcome my friend, good to have you!


Rob

Once again, one hell of a report! Thanks so much for bringing such detail and knowledge to the table, much appreciated, and excellent work.

But damn man, I have to ask, all those black buffalo standing behind you, How could you stand not taking them on as well? They look like they are just the right distance for me to start a war with them! HEH HEH........

Concerning the .5 inch diameter exit with the 243 TSX, two stories, the ESP Raptor 130 .308 hit the one deer rear left side, 3-4 inch diameter entrance, with liver falling out of it, upon exit, after destroying everything in between, it was a normal 30 caliber exit. The deer shot yesterday with the 55 gr BBW#13 NonCon .224 was an even two inches through and through, entrance and exit. But this beast started life at 3700 fps, deer was 150 yards. Personally I like the TSX, it's actually a good bullet, but a BBW#13 NonCon it is not. The BBW#13 NonCon is just plain wicked!

Michael

I just thought that we forgot the 348 diameter, 405 Win and 444 for lever guns. Can't forget those all in time I guess. Was just thinking about the 35 cal Raptor. Some might want a .2 SD 180 grain for light and fast work like the 35 Rem and 358 Win and some might want a 225 grain .25 SD Raptor for the Whelen and Norma. Some calibers could have a niche for a .2 SD as well as a .25 SD. What do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I hate cows except when I'm eating them. They sure can ruin a stalk. Why is it that they always angle in front of you even if they are way off to the side.

Because they love you---

They actually can be good cover to stalk behind-

most animals cant count legs

SSR

I am loading 375 NonCons in a few minutes. 75gr of AA2460 should be around 2780+/-. I hope to shoot a pig this weekend. Hopefully my AR hunting buddies will be interested in autopsy and photography...............

Sasquatch

I sure wish we had a Veterinarian buddy that could X-Ray the pigs whole to track the path of the bullet fragments.
I know I ask for to much

Cheers, John

OK hear me out...
You know it going to be a doosy if I say that lol.
Have been thinking about the .2 SD of the 30 caliber Raptor.
Guess what .2 SD is in 12 gauge?
Here is a hint
It rhymes with seven hundred and nifty grains or roughly 1 3/4 ounces.
Now a raptor in 12 gauge would be interesting.
Why do you ask?
Ask me why...
Come on!
(Ok, why you crazy bastard)
Ok well after a double Glenfiddich I came up with this. A 750 grain Raptor in 12 gauge in a rifled barrel with a tip could be a great long range (long range for a shotgun) and accurate solid slug. Figure subsonic to 1,300 FPS. Now in a smooth bore the flat point forward and hollow base 12 gauge would be a forward center of gravity slug and could in theory be stable terminally and in flight. I think 750 grain 12 gauge raptor could be interesting. Now at 1,300 FPS I am thinking this would purely act as a solid with no expansion not that any would be needed. With a 1/2" meplat this would do some serious damage and we all know by now the BBW 13 nose profile is a great nay I say stellar penetrator. With an estimated 1,000 fps impact velocity I'm guessing 30" penetration in the Michael Mix.
Ok, now if we are talking the 12 gauge from hell then you could shoot the damn thing as fast as you could handle and get petal sheer.
Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am loading 375 NonCons in a few minutes. 75gr of AA2460 should be around 2780+/-. I hope to shoot a pig this weekend. Hopefully my AR hunting buddies will be interested in autopsy and photography...............

Sasquatch

Sasquatch

Yes, we would be very interested in what you come up with on the pigs! So we will be hanging on, waiting to hear Autopsy and Bullet report!

Boomy on your 12 bore Raptor, not that I am interested, shotguns don't do much for me, but why so heavy? We know BBW#13s like velocity, go lighter, get velocity, NonCon would work better at velocity I think!

Shotguns! Nahhhh.


M

Only one,
Where are you going to get a barrel with a rifling twist fast enough?
I've never seen a custom 12 ga barrel with a twist faster than 1 in 24 and your going to need about (guessing) a 1 in 16.
Now if you can get US-S to make thier 900 grain solid into a Canivore then it would wieght in at about 780 and shoot out of a smooth bore.
BTW: What you want is already manufactured in the form of the Ddupleks Hexolit 32. It performs exactly like the Carnivore, they just got there in a different way.

Cheers, John

I found one of my 30/30s yesterday! It was one of the old Lawmen 16 inch guns I had messed with years ago. Wonderful little thing it is, always really liked those little 16 inch guns. California Assault rifle I would think!

Went to a book (I have no 30/30 data) and picked a powder, TAC, straight up to Max load of 34 grs with a TSX. Figured that would be fine for a Raptor. Loaded 3 Raptors as NonCons, 2 Raptors as solids, off to the range. At some point I had added a rear Williams peep on this thing, and it has a nice post in front. Had no idea where it shot at any range, so I set up at 25 yards and blasted away! Oh my god, what fun, like shooting a 22. Looked up in the spotting scope, 3 NonCon Raptors in a hole, but just 4 inches high, dead center! Two Raptors as solids, same hole as the NonCons. And FUN.

Not much velocity, running 2300 fps in the 16 inch tube! When I get a production run of 130 Raptors I might play with this some more! Maybe try and get a terminal test in this morning quickly.

Michael

Just got word from my buddy Jim who is in Zim on an elephant hunt. He shot a nice bull yesterday with his Army Navy 450 NE double and a CEB BBW#13 solid. Bull spooked and staring running, took a side brain shot and dropped it in its tracks with one shot. No bullet recovery that I know of.

Boomie,
Thanks for the idea on the slug. Also, on those slugs Phatman mentioned...AWESOME.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Any thoughts?

One thought, unfortunately these went to PeterDK...never to heard from again.


But, they're 'bout ½-way there...just need a few tweaks and we'd have a 12-gauge Raptor.

quote:

Originally posted by Phatman:
Only one,
Where are you going to get a barrel with a rifling twist fast enough?
I've never seen a custom 12 ga barrel with a twist faster than 1 in 24 and your going to need about (guessing) a 1 in 16.
Now if you can get US-S to make thier 900 grain solid into a Canivore then it would wieght in at about 780 and shoot out of a smooth bore.
BTW: What you want is already manufactured in the form of the Ddupleks Hexolit 32. It performs exactly like the Carnivore, they just got there in a different way.

Cheers, John

Would be cool to see what a tipped 12 gauge Raptor could do. It might be stable with a smooth bore as a flat point.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Just got word from my buddy Jim who is in Zim on an elephant hunt. He shot a nice bull yesterday with his Army Navy 450 NE double and a CEB BBW#13 solid. Bull spooked and staring running, took a side brain shot and dropped it in its tracks with one shot. No bullet recovery that I know of.

EXCELLENT!!!! BBW#13 Strikes AGAIN!!!!!! YIPPIE!

This is Jim in Montana that I sent the bullets to??? This was also a 480 BBW#13 as I recall. This along with LionHunter is two elephants within a couple of weeks with that bullet! I told ya'll I like that bullet! No need for a 500 gr in .458 with this one, and of course the 450 BBW#13 as well, which my 458 B&M loves, and so would a 458 Winchester. Good stuff!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It might be stable with a smooth bore as a flat point.

I shoot flat points from my smooth bore, 1 1/2" bore cannon, and they seem stable out to 300 yds.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
It might be stable with a smooth bore as a flat point.

I shoot flat points from my smooth bore, 1 1/2" bore cannon, and they seem stable out to 300 yds.

Keith

Dang...I didn't think pigs got that big!

I have completed the test work on the 458 caliber 430 BBW#13 Carnivore. I wanted the low end velocity for shear as you know, so that we know how far we can take it. The other day I had two at 1550 or so, neither sheared and passed completely through the mix, lost, there was only 40 inches of medium in the box, so if it did not shear it could burn through that easy, and it did. Then with the wax the other day it did change the way they sheared, but I wondered if it would help shear at lower velocity. So I filled a couple with wax and gave it a go. I dropped the low charge by another grain and dropped the velocity a good bit, just to test. Neither bullet sheared at 1456 fps impact, even filled with wax. So wax did not help with low velocity shear. No need to waste your time doing that, although it did change shear at slightly higher velocity.

So low end velocity shear with this bullet is 1650 fps. As it is with no tip installed, this gives it up to 150 yards before you lose shear effect.

Now remember, this is designed as a Thin Skinned Dangerous Game bullet, anyone shooting a lion or leopard beyond 50 yards should have his ass whupped! Wait, reckon I need one, as I murdered my leopard at 61 yards! Crap, well, it was just a stinking ass leopard, so murder it is! Oh well! Point is these carnivores are made for short range thin skinned dangerous game anyway, so I can easy live with being limited to less than 150 yards! I suppose one can add a tip, get better BC and that range could be extended if you wanted to work with plains game or such with this bullet.




And, to remind you, this is what it's all about.





M

The Carnivore does it's job very well, as do the NonCon and the FN Solid...all of which were designed to be extremely deadly at "up close and personal" DG distances. I reckon that's enough said and no additional improvements needed...well other than that slightly longer smooth nose section that you've already identified.

Besides, .458 users can always use this little 300gr guy should they need expansion at much lower velocities:

Just in case this has been covered already, apologies in advance...I didn't have time to check all 195 pages, lol.

How about aluminum alloy for high velocity and/or limited penetration? Lehigh does them but I think your design would be much more terminally effective. Pictured below is the 100 gr Lehigh bullet guys are shooting in their 458 SOCOMs (another whole market, BTW. Those guys are searching endlessly for the perfect SOCOM bullet which would also be a perfect choice for some pistol applications).

Aluminum bullets! Don't get Boomy started on aluminum bullets...again!

Heck yeah! Tell me all about it!